@Grand Inquisitor - I am interested in seeing your build, if you don't mind sharing it.  So few people play Mono-Red WelderMUD, giving up the manabase consistancy for Blue, or going mono-brown.  PM me if you prefer.  But I would really like to see some other ideas, as noone else seems to be working actively on this deck, but it has taken me to 3x Top 8's!

@Chuck - Unfortunately the one Dragon player in my area knows the rules all too well.  And while I may be able to slip it in at the SCG P9, I doubt it.

But it sounds like Tormod's Crypt and Blood Moon are the only consistant weapons against dragon.

Any other thoughts about the sideboard?

As for the exact order of things vs. FCG I am a little fuzzy... I think I went Mountain Welder, then Workshop --> Metalworker.  the first time he swung with the Lackey I had a Welder out, but let it through thinking I could deal with his board quickly enough (a gamble, I know).  The Warchief was dropped off the Lackey.

@DEA - Funny enough, I have had a very rough time with Fish.  That's why I put 3x 'cores on the board and the extra 2 Titans... It probably is a bit excessive, but it is VERY prevalent in DC.  Those 5 cards also allowed me to somewhat transform into a more aggro build (7 big nastys + 2 Karns).

I am thinking about putting the Rack & Ruin's back in as well as Blood Moon.  Other Workshop decks seem to come down to the first active welder or the first Crucible.  But Dragon is still a deck I can do very little against.  I think Blood Moon and Tormod's Crypt are the only real answers, short of a gawd-draw and turn 2 dropping my entire hand and the entire lock.

One thought I had... I seem to remember some Red Enchantment that read something like "Whenever a creature comes into play, it deals damage equal to it's power (or toughness) to it's controller... That would really screw Dragon.... anyone remember what the card is, or if it's casting cost is at all reasonable?

Another 5-proxy Type 1 Tourney at Dream Wizards, and another chance to continue my streak of making Top 8 and scrubbing out in the Quarterfinals to Fish.  The first two Type 1 Tournaments at Dream Wizards I attended, I made Top 8, then immediately lost to Fish... in fact, out of both tournaments, each 5 rounds + Top 8, I was 0-4 to Fish, and 5-1-1 to the rest of the field.

So I brush up my WelderMUD that I love so much, and head down for another day of Type 1.  Going as a warm-up for the SCG Power-9 Tourney, I am expecting a field full of Fish, as the DC area tends to be, and cruising the tables before the event started, I see lots of Hatchlings and Fairies... but this time I am prepared.  My sideboard is chock-full of nasty things for Fish...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Round 1 vs. Seimon B. [Slaver w/ Staff of Domination]

Game 1: Mulligan into hand of Workshop, Mountain, Wasteland, City of Traitors, Mox, Metalworker, and I'm playing second.  Seimon drops nothing of consequense, so I drop Metalworker and pass.  Wasteland kills my Workshop, but not much else... but all I draw is lands... LOTS of LANDS.  He gets a Crucible, then Metalworker, a few more lands, then Tinker... for Staff of Domination.  Then comes a Windfall for 5 (I had 5 lands), and Metalworker-Staff goes crazy and I concede.

Game 2: Mulligan into Tolarian Academy, Mox, Metalworker, Smokestack, Smokestack.  Thinking all I need it so pull a Mox or a land, or anything, I lay Academy, Mox, Go... Wasteland hits my academy, and I draw nothing but expensive artifacts.... Triskilion swings for 17 and pings for the final 3.

0-1 (0-2 Games)



Round 2 vs. SomeRandomKid [Food Chain Goblins]

Game 1: He goes first with Taiga, Chrome Mox (Food Chain), Goblin Lackey.  I drop Mountain, Metalworker, go.  He swings, drops Warchief, and passes.  I drop land, go.  Piledriver, swing, the Metalworker killing the Lackey, go.  I drop land, Tangle Wire.  He taps down all but his 2 goblins and he swings again to take me down to 1.  I drop Workshop and a second Tangle Wire + Smokestack to tap him down... and quickly go into Wire + Stack lock... make him sac down to nothing, drop Karn, and swing for the win.

Sideboarding: I bring in the hate I was packing for Fish.  Titan's 3 & 4, and 3x Razormane Masticore.

Game 2: He drops Taiga, Mox Ruby, Prospector.  I drop Workshop, Metalworker, go.  He Artifact Mutations my Metalworker... Damn... and swings with a Goblin, and drops some other goblin dork.  I topdeck... METALWORKER.. and toss it down, along with a Mountain, Welder.  He swings with tokens, and drops a Warchief.  I draw another Artifact, activate the Metalworker, drop a land, and throw down Sundering Titan + Razormane Masticore.  Three turns later I win.

1-1 (2-2 Games)



Round 3 vs. Kenny (Underworld Dreams + Tef's Puzzle Box)

Game 1: Turn 1 Trinisphere = Game

Game 2: Turn 1 Sphere of Resistance + Turn 2 Sphere = Game

2-1 (4-2 Games)



Round 4 vs. Ron (Megrim + Wheel & Deal)

Game 1: Turn 1 Trinisphere = Game again.

Game 2: Turn 1 Sphere, Turn 2 Crucible, Turn 3 Metalworker, Turn 4 Memory Jar, Turn 5 Jar, weld, Jar, weld, Jar, Titan, Titan = gg

3-1 (6-2 Games)



Round 5 - ID


Top 8


Quarterfinals vs. John Wolfsenberger (Dragon)

John beat me with Fish at the last Type 1 Tourney, and keeps telling me he's playing Fish... stupid me.

Game 1: He starts with Sacland for Underground Sea.  I drop mountain, Welder, he drops swamp, I go Workshop Metalworker, he drops swamp + Compulsion.  I activate Metalworker, dropping Tangle Wire + Crucible + Smokestack, and say go, and he replies "Game"... John goes off with the Tangle Wire on the stack.

Game 2: I have very few answers for Dragon in my board, but bring in 3x Tormod's Crypt + Chalice #3 & 4.  I go first, and play perfectly... dropping Turn 1 Sphere of Resistance, Turn 2 Metalworker, Turn 3 Sphere #2 and Crucible, he finally gets his Bazzar, and bazzars into a dragon, I reply with Smokestack, Tangle Wire, go, and he wins during Upkeep again.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I am 3 for 3 for making Top 8 in Type 1 Tourneys, and 3 for 3 in scrubbing out in round 1 of the Top 8.  And all my preparations for Fish, and I didn't see it all day, in spite of 8 Fish players (out of 26 total)

Overall I am happy, but I want to find some ways to shore up the game vs. Dragon (which I just can't beat), and Fish, which I'm still not sure if I can beat consistantly.



Corwin's WelderMUD - October 2004

===The Lock===
4x Goblin Welder
4x Smokestack
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Crucible of Worlds

===The Kill===
2x Karn, Silver Golem
2x Sundering Titan

===The Enablers===
4x Metalworker
1x Memory Jar
3x Solemn Similacrum
2x Mind's Eye

===Mana Sources===
4x Mishra's Workshop
1x Tolarian Academy
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
5x Mountain
2x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
1x Black Lotus
5x Moxen
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring


===Sideboard===
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Crucible of Worlds
3x Razormane Masticore
2x Sundering Titan
4x Sphere of Resistance


I know I forgot the Mana Crypt (stupid oversight), and I am becoming less fond of the Solemn's at time goes by.  My sideboard needs work though.  I was testing the Masticore, because, on paper, they should WrEcK Fish, as they are not turned off by Null Rod.  I think I need to go to 3x Crucible MD, and drop the Mind's Eye, and find room for Blood Moon on the board.

I am still VERY weak vs. Dragon, as I am Mono-Red.  But if anyone has thoughts/suggestions, I would appreciate it.  But before you start, I am NOT interested in changing to U/R or dropping the Welders for Mono-Brown.

Corwin

@Willie - Goblin Welder.  Just the Welder alone, for me, is enough reason to keep the Red in the deck.  Resolving a Welder make counterspells a non-issue for any of the Artifacts in the deck.

@Bobduh - for the final 1-of, Pentavus.... why not go 1 mana more to Sundering Titan at that point?  

But seriously, I am still having problems vs. fish.  The Masticore can work, but I'm not convinced.  I keep thinking of putting Gorilla Shaman's back in to eat Null Rods (my biggest fear), but they are fragile as a 1/1 (So are the Welders, for that matter). But to drop a Shaman and eat a Null Rod is 6 non-workshop mana, which is hard to do.

I talked to PTW after my last Top8, losing to fish, and his suggestion was FAT.  He said that Fish (especially Gay/R Fish, which shows all the time in my area) rolls to Fat - SuiChi, 7/10, 'core's... Juggernauts have a small butt, so with an active Lavamancer it's a 1-to-1, but anything 4-butt of bigger starts making a 2-to-1 or better trade... and I can weld back.

What about 5th Dawn... other than Possessed Portal, si there anything in 5D that might help?

@AggressiveDude - Yes, I have included Razormane Masticores in the decks as my biggest problem is against Gay/R Fish (which is VERY prevalent in my area), and the reason is that both Triskelion and the old Masticore's abilities are turned off with a Null Rod in play (and yes, they manage to drop the Null Rod damn near every time I don't drop a Turn-1 or 2 Chalice for 2.

@Thug - I don't like running both Spheres.  I have tested the 3Sphere, and it just does not work for me.  Also, I prefer Mind's Eye to Skullcap... a play choice of my own.  Yes, if I was running Skullcaps then Masticore's are a bad idea.  You may be right about Wheel of Fortune... I am wondering what the "right" card is to put back in the deck then?  Another Karn/Masticore... the 4th Mind's Eye (Skullcap) or a different 1-of?

Corwin

Leaving the Trinisphere vs. Sphere of Resistance arguement behind, along with the Grafted Skullcap vs. Mind's Eye, let's look at the latests decklist to see what other changes should be made.

I have included 2x Razormane Masticore's, as the Bolt ability is not turned off by a Null Rod, and the the bolt + a 5/5 First Striker, it should WRECK Gay/R Fish, which is my worst matchup.  I have also re-added the Jester's Cap to the SB, as I do love the card, and it can just win games vs. Tog or Keeper.  Scrap has replaced Rack & Ruin, as it cycles, and Fire/Ice has been added to the board.

Corwin's WelderMUD

//Creatures - 12//
4x Goblin Welder
4x Metalworker
2x Karn, Silver Golem
2x Razormane Masticore
 
//The Lock - 16//
4x Sphere of Resistance (or Trinisphere, depending on your preference)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Tangle Wire
4x Smokestack

//Card Drawing - 5//
3x Mind's Eye (or Grafted Skullcap, depending on your preference)
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar

//Mana Sources - 27//
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald

1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring

1x Tolarian Academy
7x Mountain
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x City of Traitors


//Sideboard - 15//
3x Scrap
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Red Elemental Blast (or Ensnaring Bridge, if you run Grafted Skullcap)
3x Fire/Ice
2x Jester's Cap (or Duplicant)


Again, PLEASE let's stay on the topic of WelderMUD.  Not Slavery, or 7/10, or the other U/R Workshop decks.  And PLEASE let the 3Sphere/Sphere arguement die.  I have included BOTH in the decklist so that you will leave it alone... and I don't care if you only run 3x 3Sphere, I want to run Sphere of Resistance.  It fits my playstyle and it fits my metagame better.  

So your help on THIS decklist would be most appreciated.

Thanks,
Corwin

@Smennen - Possessed Portal looks awsome for WelderMUD, but I'm not sure what to cut for it?  Put it in place of the Crucible?  Or drop to 3x of all the lock parts?  I'm not sure where to fit it.

Possessed Portal is an awsome addition to the lock, but it also makes me fondly remember when WelderMUD was running Winter Orb... that would be a VERY nasty combo, but unlikely to ever get played together, without welding something.

My concern is that the Portal looks great, but at 8 mana, it would almost have to be Welded in, and WelderMUD doesn't have the discard method, unless you move to R/U, but then you are at the Slaver or 7/10 engine again.  Wheel of Fortune and Memory Jar are the only ways to discard the Portal to weld it back into play.  Thoughts?

@MoreFling - Thank you.  I had been trying to re-direct the discussion to wMUD.  Thanks for re-focusing the discussion.  Also you are probably right, the Tital is just too expensive... unless I can discard it somehow... but it sure was an attractive option!  

@Erdrick - I had looked at Duplicant, as it is a great answer to Tog, and other limited-creature decks...  I might play with it again, as Null Rod doesn't turn it off, like Trike... and as a 3/4 it's decent vs. Fish.  As for Time Vault... I have played it and not played it... it's too much of a "win more" card to justify the room in the deck.

@Toad - Scrap? Interesting... I wonder if that is worth swapping the R&R... Too many time I haven't needed the R&R, or had to target my own Artifact to use R&R... I'll play with that as an option.

@Wollblad - Yeah, Titan + Sphere isn't that great of an idea... with Trinisphere maybe, but it was a reach.  Maybe just Fire/Ice on the board, with Duplicant/Trike/Razormane is the way to go.

So the current concensus is:
-3 Sundering Titans
+2 Karn, Silver Golem
+1 Sphere

SB:
-4 Rack & Ruin
+3 Scrap
-1 something else
+2 Fire/Ice

I am running Basic Mountains, becuase I am Mono-Red.  As for adding blue... what to cut to make room for Thirst, Ancestral, Draw 7's... etc.  I know a lot of people prefer Slaver to MUD, but I have found it a more consistant deck, and there are decks where Slaving them doesn't do enough (ie. Fish, Stompy, etc.), unless you can completely slaver-lock them out of another turn for the rest of the game.  

@Machinus - No Welders?  That's the lynchpin of the deck, and you can't even run Slavery without them, as you have no way to recur the Slavers themselves, let alone the Tangle Wire/Smokestack/Sphere

@Suchamouf37 - I do not agree that Slaver>Stax>Mud.  I started with Stax, then moved to Mud as the mana base is much more stable and consistant.  And having tested the hell out of Slaver, Slaver and Mud are no better than the other, as they are completely different decks.  


WelderMUD is a Red/Brown Deck, and that is what I am trying to bring back up to speed, to be competative with the other Tier 1 decks.  Taking the deck to R/U requires other changes, that morph the deck into Slavery or 7/10 Split.  I had played with Mindslavers and Sundering Titans to help out the deck in certain matchups, but I really don't want to turn the deck into Slaver or 7/10.

@MoreFling - I had not considered Pyrite Spellbombs... I will have to try them.  And as for the Titans, you are correct that 8 mana can be difficult, even with Metalworkers, especially under a Null Rod... but by the same token, Karn isn't a finisher under a Null Rod... I am forced to wait to draw (and SUCCESSFULLY) cast Rack & Ruin.

@Suckamouf37 - Problem with Masticore is the upkeep, and that it is a bad choice in the mirror, as your opponent will weld it out before the bolt happens.  FTK could be good, but 4 non-workshop mana can be hard some days.

@Toad - I know Thirst is better, but I'm running Mono-Red... is going to R/U (with Glimmervoid, Shivan Reef, and Volc Islands) worth it for just 4x Thirst?  I'm not sure.  I have always liked the mono-red for the consistancy, and running Basics for my colored mana = anti-Wasteland for my colored mana requriements.

@jazzykat - Already talked about the 'core.  Pentavus are the same as Trikes, as they are turned off by Null Rod... yeah, it's a 5/5, but no stupid-Pentavus-tricks.dec.  I looked at Juggernaut, but with only a 3-butt, if Fish has an active Lavamancer, or 2 factories, it is a 1-to-1 trade.  I tried Sui-chi's for a while as it forced at least a 2-to-1 trade.  Titan gets aroudn that... and that's also why I always liked running 7 mountains, and cut the ancient Tomb, so it is only basics (Mountains).

@Smmenen - Portal looks cute, and would screw the hell outta Tog, Dragon, TPS/Neo-Long, but if I'm dropping an 8-mana artifact, I would think Titan would be better spent...  but it might be a good SB card against some card-drawing decks.... but probably better for U/R builds with Thirst and Gilded Lotus

True, but under Null Rod, Trike is an over-costed 4/4 with no abilities.

As for Turn big creatures sideways... that's my question... what is the good Fat to battle those decks?

Corwin

@jpmeyer - True, and that's why I have been running 3x Slavers on the board since Mirrodin, and long before the Slaver decks became popular.  But they are also somewhat dead vs. some decks, which is why I prefer MUD to Slaver.  Slavers vs. Fish or O.Stompy are mostly dead cards, unless you completely slaver-lock them out of another turn.

Opposing Welders are a problem.  But Razormane Masticore isn't a viable option, because if their Welder is active, they just weld the Masticore out before upkeep, and no 3 damage.  I played Trikes for a while, but didn't feel I was getting the bang-for-the-buck out of them.  

-3 Mindslaver
+3 Fire/Ice

on the board - Not that I can regularly cast the Ice, but splittable damage is good.... and will help vs. Fish

I have tested Ancient Tomb, and I thought it was in there.  
-1 Mana Vault
-1 Mountain
+2 City of Traitors

I am an avid WelderMUD player, and have Top-8'd at the last 2 Dream Wizards Vintage Tournaments (had to judge for the GP:DC Championships), but I am worried as I am not seeing anyone playing, or even talking about WelderMUD anymore.  The past 2 tournaments, my only "Bad" matchups have been in the mirror, and vs. Gay/R Fish.  Not to say that I beat everything, but those are the only 2 I consistantly lose to.  I have tested MeanDeck Slaver, and enjoyed the deck, but it doesn't quite fit me, even though I have always run 3x Mindslaver in my SB.  

I have been testing out some fat in the SB specifically against Fish, and had pretty much settled on Sundering Titan before GP:DC and the break-out performance of 7/10 Split.  I had even toyed with Maindecking them in place of Karn, but hadn't quite pulled the trigger.  Now with the upcoming release of Fifth Dawn, and the ideas of adding Crucible into WelderMUD, now is the time to start resurrecting this great deck.


WelderMud - Post Fifth Dawn Suggested Deck List:

//Creatures - 10//
4x Goblin Welder
4x Metalworker
3x Sundering Titan (or 2x Sundering Titan, 1x Karn, Silver Golem)

//The Lock - 17//
3x Sphere of Resistance (or Trinisphere, depending on your preference)
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Tangle Wire
4x Smokestack
3x Crucible of Worlds

//Card Drawing - 5//
3x Mind's Eye (or Grafted Skullcap, depending on your preference)
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar

//Mana Sources - 26//
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald

1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring

1x Tolarian Academy
7x Mountain
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

//Sideboard - 15//
4x Rack and Ruin
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Red Elemental Blast (or Ensnaring Bridge, if you run Grafted Skullcap)
3x Mindslaver

--I know some people prefer Mind's Eyes to Grafted Skullcap (+ Ensnaring Bridge in the board), and some prefer Trinisphere to Spheres.  I wrote the decklist the way I prefer it, with the caviots to the options.  I think that Adding the Titans, gives some FAT to battle Fish, or any deck once the Null Rod comes down, and the Crucibles make the LD portion a bit stronger, to enchance the lock.

Any thoughts?

Yes, I love nothing better than announcing "METALWORKER BEATDOWN!!!"

I will try re-testing with Trinisphere and see how that works for me.  While I know it will help vs. Fish, I find the Sphere of R. is better vs. Tog... Hrmmm.

@RavenFire - You are right... I was in a hurry and made 2 big Play Errors.... "Chalice for 2, Chalice for 1", and then the next game Turn 2 Mindslaver instead of Chalice for 2.... Live and Learn, I guess.

I usually do, but seem to never have the Red mana, or I can't get the Non-workshop mana, as the Null Rod shuts down too much of my non-workshop mana sources.

Cut the Karns?
Then my only "win" it to swing with a Metalworker or Welder 20 times???
That seems to remove the quick kill that WelderMUD can have with the lock out and dropping Karn.  Seems like it cuts the deck off at the knees for a better chance to slow them down... but it leaves a thin win condition.

@Thissa - By the way... you're welcome... I'm the guy who told you to run FCG over Fish!  :lol:  I ran WelderMUD myself, going 3-1-1 (ID into Top 8, and a loss to Fish).

@Raven Fire - You killed me, you know that?  My one loss before the Top 8 was to you and the damn Fish.... and then you dropped before the Top 8 moving me from 5th to 4th, so instead of TPS (which I beat in Swiss), I got the other Fish deck and lost!  

@Jacob - Yeah, Trikes can be good, but it can be hard to cast one with the Null Rod already out (which they seem to do every game against me on Turn 2).

@David - Most of the Fish decks are running Cloud of Fairies, Spiketail Hatchling, Voidmage Prodigy (some), and Grim Lavamancer... haven't run into any with Razorfins yet.  I have thought about Fire/Ice, but not sure what to pull for them... I like the Viashino Heretic idea... I had forgotten about them!

I don't know why, but every time I face Fish, if I don't drop a Turn-1 Sphere or Chalice for 2, they drop a Null Rod on me... and darned if I didn't get 2x Turn-1 Null Rods on Saturday!

Fire/Ice & Heretics sound good... but I can't figure what to drop for them.  I've been thinking about dropping the Slavers for them... but the Slaver Lock has won me a lot of Game 2 & 3's... it also makes opponents think I run a transform-SB to Slavery, which I'm not really... but the Slaver just wrecks Tog, Keeper, and a number of other decks.

Another Type 1 Tournament, and I can't beat Gay/R Fish.
I went 3-1-1 to make Top 8, beating Crap.dec, BadStompy, and Draw-7, then losing to Gay/R Fish, ID'ing with Tog into the Top 8... and I pair against another Gay/R Fish deck and lose!?!?!

Why can't I beat this stupid deck?
I talked to Phantom Tape Worm (who drew in the finales, again... and playing.... you guessed it, Gay/R Fish... the one person playing it I didn't face)... and his suggestion was Fat creatures... like Sui-Chi's on the board.  

Before you start though, I play Mind's Eyes because it is better in my meta, and it fits my playstyle better.  Please do not start the Mind's Eye vs. Skullcap debate.  Also, I have tested Trinisphere, and I do not like it.  While I agree that Turn-1 Trinisphere is awsome against so many decks, drawn after Turn 2 is mostly a waste, so please don't start that debate either.

My 2x "Meta" slots were Jester's Cap, because DC-Area is known for being Control-heavy, and I like the Cap vs. Control... especially against Keeper!  :lol:   But I am willing to try other things.

I think the maindeck is pretty solid, but the Board isn't helping me here.

WelderWUD 2k4

//The Lock - 16//
4x Smokestack
4x Tangle Wire
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Chalice of the Void

//Creatures - 10//
4x Metalworker
4x Goblin Welder
2x Karn, Silver Golem

//Card Drawing - 5//
3x Mind's Eye
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar

//Metagame Slots - 2//
2x Jester's Cap

//Mana Sources - 26//
7x Mountain
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Tolarian Academy

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald

1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring


//Sideboard - 15//
4x Rack and Ruin
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Mindslaver


I know the 3x Mindslaver's on the board seem janky, but against a lot of decks, brining them in is huge, and even without activating them, dropping them on the board can cause players to concede!

I have been playing with the idea of Sui-Chi's for fat vs. Fish, but not sure what to drop.  I don't want to play Skullcap, so Ensnaring Bridge makes no sense either.

Ideas/Thoughts/Comments?

Corwin