Optimizing Keeper post Mirrodin

[MisterShark]

Quote (Matt The Great @ Oct. 06 2003,19:37)If I was going to try a Scepter-lock, Chant would seem better, no? Abeyance won't stop artifacts or attacks.

@Matt
I was thinking of the benefit of the cantrip + denial of instants, sorceries and activated abilities, when suggesting Abeyance.
Orim's Chant doesn't provide the cantrip effect and the choice of playing the kicker is, unless I miss my guess, not an option when playing the imprinted sceptered version of the spell.

[hippie tourach]

Quote (MisterShark @ Oct. 07 2003,15:21)@Matt
I was thinking of the benefit of the cantrip + denial of instants, sorceries and activated abilities, when suggesting Abeyance.
Orim's Chant doesn't provide the cantrip effect and the choice of playing the kicker is, unless I miss my guess, not an option when playing the imprinted sceptered version of the spell.

That's an interesting issue. I think you could play the kicker cost as long as you pay 2W when you tap Scepter. The Scepter creates a copy of the card and it seems to me you could pay additional (non-mana) costs of the spell. If an instant card said sacrifice a creature when you play this spell, you'd have to sacrifice when you played it off Scepter because it's not a mana cost. So I think kickers work.

[MisterShark]

@hippie tourach
Cc: Matt
Hmm, I may have been mistaken after all about the option to play kicker cost.  Here is a quoted Q & A from StarCityGames site, from their 'Ask the Judge' section, regarding preliminary Isochron Scepter rulings dealing with kicker options:

Q: Does Isochron Scepter works with Orim's Chant? I mean, of course, a kickered Chant: Does it automatically have the kicker, or do you have to play the kicker cost?

A: With the caveat that I'm not an official source, and the rules for Mirrodin haven't been released to the public, from reading the preview of Isochron Scepter on Sideboard today, it looks like you play the copy without paying its mana cost. If it's like other copy spells (once again, take the caveat), you can still pay additional costs like Kicker and Buyback - but the Scepter won't pay them for you. You'll have to pay them yourself

So I guess that until Wizards releases an official ruling, we'll have to believe what seems intuitive.  The answer man, Sheldon Menery, is pretty sharp though, so I'd bet on him being accurate.
Thanks for the correction H.T.

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (MisterShark @ Oct. 07 2003,19:07)So I guess that until Wizards releases an official ruling, we'll have to believe what seems intuitive.  

Official rulings have already been released (the FAQ generally comes out a few days before the prerelease). You have the option of paying kicker for a sceptered copy, but if you don't pay it, it won't happen.

Now, let's get back on topic.

[Matt The Great]

I know that you can pay the kicker costs on a Scepter'd instant. Knowing this, it seems that Chant is a much more total lock. And because it is a total lock, you don't need the cantripping of Abeyance. Neither card will stop them from playing instants.

Note: If I gave up on Scepter, I'd do exactly what Zherbus is doing, except possibly with an Emerald. Possibly.\n\n

[Crawley]

@Zherbus

What was the logic behind cutting Mind Twist and Future Sight? I know Future Sight is hindered by Chalice, but was that the only reason?

Thanks.

[Rico Suave]

The issue is that they're both expensive.  Future Sight moreso because Mana Drain can't fuel it as effectively.

[jpmeyer]

Yay!  I can finally talk:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

3 Chalice of the Void
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor

2 Decree of Justice
1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares

2 Gorilla Shaman

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor

SB hasn't been figured out yet since I'm not sure how the metagame will pan out.  Right now though I'll assume something like:

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Orim's Chant
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Skeletal Scrying
SB: 1 Lim-Dul's Vault (to get around Chalice=1 more than for the effect)
SB: 1 Fire/Ice
3 open

Intuition is horrible since you can't get anything other than AK with it, but the AKs are actually decent by themselves.  You need to watch out againt Tog (if that deck is even playable post-Chalice,) but against any other deck they work in reverse of how they did in Tog.  In Tog, you'd hold them so you could set them up with Intuition.  Here, you use them as your search to get you towards Scepter faster, because even with just one AK in the yard, AK on Scepter ends the game really quickly.

If the metagame turns out favorable for Mind Twist, I'll figure out how to fit it in, but for now I don't like it since it seems weak against Mud and Mask, although it's still good against Keeper and Fish.

[VideoGameBoy]

I started a discussion on Mind's Eye in the TMD User forum, and it's applicability in Keeper.  In it I posted a build that is probably way off base, but what I was getting at is that it can perhaps serve in lieu/complement Future Sight.  Any thoughts?

By the way, I think the Scepter is key to Keeper's future, since any deck with Cunning Wish in multiples should automatically include it now - despite the mana intensivity and card disadvantage.

[Eastman]

JP I have to admit I've been seen testing AK in keeper.



Just the fact that there are only 2 instants with cc<4 capable of generating pure card advantage makes me feel like I should be running the one that isn't restricted in addition to the obvious Ancestral Recall. I see AK as an excellent play in builds that sport the scepter.

You don't need Intuition to make AK playable. Intuition helps to fuel the burst of cards that Hulk needs to combo out, but guts the advantage you can eventually garner from casting all of the AK's independantly.

I don't think AK is part of the optimal build right now however it IS useful and I don't see playing with them generating any significant (noticeable) disadvantage.\n\n

[Grendal]

Quote 4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

I've noticed that the blue sources have dropped by one, by what most consider optimal mana base.   Has your latest testing found this new mana base to be as resilient as the previous one?

Also...   How has Tolarian functioned for you...   I quickly see the potential abusiveness of the Tolarian with all the artifacts that could potentially be in play.   My only question would be, do your own early chalices not kill any chance of you seeing the majority of these moxen, aside from those you draw in your initial hand?

Quote 3 Chalice of the Void
2 Isochron Scepter

Another question...   I played a deck quite similar to this just the other night.   Although my version was just the opposite, running 3 Scepter and 2 Chalice.   Although looking at your build with incorporated AK's, I now see that the frustrations I had with dropping a chalice for 1, would easily be overlooked with this build.   Still though...  with Scepter being such a house, have you done any testing with Scepter at 3 in the deck, instead of 2?


Again…  I really love the way JP's deck looks overall...   my only fear, is that it might not be able to handle early creatures.   Or for that matter any early creature of substance.   I understand that an early chalice certainly will put a halt to things, and combined with the ability of this deck to virtually go ape shit with strip effects is awesome.   But that does not mean a 1st turn Flesh Reaver, or 1st turn Hypnotic / Phrexian / Ophidian / etc...  Couldn’t happen.   How does this deck handle an early creature that has some substantial mass to it?   Mind you...  I have not played this version myself, although I defiantly plan to.

Again...  I love the fact that this deck can drop a 0 Chalice or a 1 Chalice, and virtually not even blink, because it has little to no effect on the decks playability.

- Grendal

[jpmeyer]

This was most of my reasoning as well.  I saw 4 different ways you could take Keeper:

1) Relying on Scrying as your main draw
2) Relying on Scepter imprinting search
3) Relying on Scepter imprinting AK
4) Intuition/AK

First off, I wanted to keep my curve as low as possible.  This ruled out #1.  I tried out #4 first, but I found that Intuition can never fetch anything that you want since Keeper is a deck of 1s and 2s and not 3s and 4s like Tog.  My next attempt was #2, which is better than this version at abusing Scepter since it finds it more easily, but is way worse without Scepter.

Eventually I settled on #3, and I think that even in terms of pure drawing power that it's superior to Scrying.  Early on, both AK and Scrying are getting you 1-2 cards, so they're even there.  Later, AK only gets 3-4 compared to how Scrying can get some incredible number.  The problem though is that Scrying opens you up to more cards here.  It's a lot easier to defend a 2CC AK than it is to defend a 6CC Scrying.  A big Scrying like that too can leave you wide open to an opposing Decree.

I think that if Keeper does run Scepter, it needs to run both 1cc and 2cc instants that can draw cards, both for to get around Chalice and to allow for enough redundency that you'll have something to imprint.

Quote I've noticed that the blue sources have dropped by one, by what most consider optimal mana base.   Has your latest testing found this new mana base to be as resilient as the previous one?

Also...   How has Tolarian functioned for you...   I quickly see the potential abusiveness of the Tolarian with all the artifacts that could potentially be in play.   My only question would be, do your own early chalices not kill any chance of you seeing the majority of these moxen, aside from those you draw in your initial hand?

The mana is pretty solid.  The AKs really help here because between them and the Brainstorms, you see plenty of cards early.  Just don't be afraid of hands with like 1 Mox and 1 blue source.

Academy has been really strong.  It helps to make my Balances more devastating and can often generate enough mana that I am actually thinking pretty hard about changing the SB Scrying into a Stroke of Genius.

The Mox issue isn't that big, actually.  Dropping my own Moxes first aside, you can sometimes accumulate Moxes in hand if you have your own Chalice out until you can Shaman away your own Chalice, cast the Moxes, and replay a fresh one.

Quote Another question...   I played a deck quite similar to this just the other night.   Although my version was just the opposite, running 3 Scepter and 2 Chalice.   Although looking at your build with incorporated AK's, I now see that the frustrations I had with dropping a chalice for 1, would easily be overlooked with this build.   Still though...  with Scepter being such a house, have you done any testing with Scepter at 3 in the deck, instead of 2?


Again?  I really love the way JP's deck looks overall...   my only fear, is that it might not be able to handle early creatures.   Or for that matter any early creature of substance.   I understand that an early chalice certainly will put a halt to things, and combined with the ability of this deck to virtually go ape shit with strip effects is awesome.   But that does not mean a 1st turn Flesh Reaver, or 1st turn Hypnotic / Phrexian / Ophidian / etc...  Couldn?t happen.   How does this deck handle an early creature that has some substantial mass to it?   Mind you...  I have not played this version myself, although I defiantly plan to.

These sort of go together, actually.  Because I've found that Chalice is so useful at just completely shutting other decks down, I'm really aggresive with Force of Will and I'm willing to Force creatures that before I would have allowed to resolve and then tried to remove.  This also makes Scepter less effective since I'm not as likely to have an imprintable instant, even though I'm paranoid enough to be running 14 imprintable cards (not counting Cunning Wish.)

If I can find one more slot, I want to add Vampiric Tutor back to the maindeck, because with all the easy hand-dumping, Balance has come back as a huge MVP in this deck and VT complements it so well.

[Saucemaster]

Well let's see if we can't get a little of the Team Mean Deck schism over AK in Keeper going on TMD as well.    After a decent but not spectacular amount of testing over the last few weeks, I'm in the anti-AK camp.  I will note that JP is absolutely right about Intuitions, and that the rest of the question probably hinges to a large degree on Scepter's viability.  I was incredibly enchanted with it at first, but I'm a little less so now.  I'm currently pussyfooting around with a halfway build that looks quite a bit like Zherbus' latest with a Scrying in place of one Scepter.

Quote Academy has been really strong.  It helps to make my Balances more devastating and can often generate enough mana that I am actually thinking pretty hard about changing the SB Scrying into a Stroke of Genius.

I've had mixed results with Academy, so for any of you out there who haven't had quite as much luck with it as JP, know that you're not alone.  However, Academy has rarely been actually *bad*.  I can see going either way on this and personally, I'm still testing it.

Quote I think that if Keeper does run Scepter, it needs to run both 1cc and 2cc instants that can draw cards, both for to get around Chalice and to allow for enough redundency that you'll have something to imprint.

I am in full and total agreement on this point--some of us are using a few Impulses, JP is using AKs.  Either way, you still need Brainstorms in the deck or you end up very vulnerable to Chalice for two.

Quote If I can find one more slot, I want to add Vampiric Tutor back to the maindeck, because with all the easy hand-dumping, Balance has come back as a huge MVP in this deck and VT complements it so well

JP, I'm currently testing dropping to one Shaman to make room for Vampiric.  In theory you can still get Shaman with it, though in practice you rarely will.  I've been finding Shaman to be dead more frequently than I'd like, even taking into account opposing Chalices.  Yet more testing to be done.

[Maxx Matt]

@ JP:  I think to be addicted to Skeletal scrying over other blue drawers spell only for a reason.... during the control mirror, if I'm able to cast it for 3 o 4 at maximum, I can really hope to win a counter war due to the inability of my opponent to use his ReB, while I;m in the strong position to USE it and eventually have other blue counter backup. Against  terrible matchups , as Hulk and Ur-Phid in terms of counter wars,  i haven't been able to win SINGLE games until I swap the massive blu drawers with my 2 Scrying.

If AK will not be imprinted, his real net value in card drawn isn't so huge if you are not able to resolve the last one.

In your defence i count the BEATIFUL number of blue cards in you deck... whoaaa... you are ALWAYS able to pitch something to FOW, while during 2 or 3 match, I lost due to my inability to pitch Something...

My only difficult to realize why on heart Mind Twist has been cutted down by you and Zherbus ( which maindeck I prefer for Stilysh reason... ) DURING a combo period such this, when, while every player stalls with useless cards in their hand, you can punish them with a huge twist thanx to mana superiority and counter backup.

Even if it isn't so useful agaisnt a MUD with an active welder or a mask who need targets in his grave to combo you with his shapeshifter, I think that it do so much and win so much games to me agaisnt EVERY blu based decks and all the tendril based decks that It deserve a sopt not only in my heart but IN THE MAINDECK FOREVER  

good hint for the Lim Dul's Vault in the side, as a post mirrodin new way of seach...

I think that post side my position ( more real treats and real permanent solutions ) could only be improved by adding or mantaining the good search of the "old" Zherbus build ( Impulse, Brainstorm, Tutors ) , and AK, imprinted or not aren't too game breaking ( of course if you imprint for 3 or 4 my argument doesn't have any validity...  ).

If you think that every one of my action could be done in my eot ( if you exclude wasteland, shaman and cotv... ) my position is more reactive and clearly more intriguing from the point of view of a ( always bluffing... ) control player...

You can cast a scepter and then go for the kill with it cicling, drawing, removing and so on... but you have to use your main phase, which can be risky, even if the other opponent expect for this move and coud explode soon after....

If you think about possibility to scoop after a bad move or a move that tap you out, i think that only Dragon could combo you out with istant speed ( necromancy.. ) and a FoW backup to nullify yours...  all the other decks may only find a way of winning ONLY  during his respective main phase, and the scepter have to enter the board very early to be really effective, but at the same time, the turns of play I'm referring to , are the ones preferred by the combo player to out play you  and win.

I cast Scepter after a  positive drain . It is clearly match win.
I cast Skeletal after a positive drain. Even in this case it is ( or at least it is very often ) a match win.

But....

If I need to hardcast Scepter for any reason i can't cast it on my eot as I can do for skeletal ( maybe winning.... ) and then i can possibly scoop, without having the possibilty to use it and win with it, the turn after .


I'll deserve more testign on a build with Scepters maindeck, but What I feel just now is that while cotv slow down my opponent more than me, scepters could possibly not be the solution on drawing that a deck like this should be able to resolve with consistency, without too much possible negative  feedback soon after.

I suppose that your goal his

---against combo: cotv x=0, x=1 and scepter with AK
---agaisnt sligh: cotv: x=1 and scepter with removals and or drawers
---against stax: bad matchup to cast cotv at any cc... he has kegs that kill all the possible choice previously chooesn for any cotv and he have too much different cc .. I usually set cotv x=0 if I'll go first or x=1 only if welders aren't in play
--- agaisnt combo cotv x=0 AND x=1 needed to slow the game for the winning. scepter useless or comparable with any drawwrs ever printed


tell me if I'm wrong in your possible winning plan!  


Maxx Matt

[LemanRuss]

I tried Chalice of the Void in Keeper, but honestly I was not really convinced. As I dislike playing a card when it is already played in an optimal way in another deck, I think I’d rather let proper decks break the Chalice while I try to protect myself from it.
Of course, this card hoses several decks suck as Rector, Long.dec and weenies. That is why I am playing the Chalice in my sideboard. But to be really honest, I don’t think I am going to encounter much of these decks because of the metagame changes. Maindecking this card does not seem good enough for me.
With Keeper, you will usually play this car for 0 or 1. For 0, it nullifies Long, and slows MUD, but only if you get it on your first turn (against MUD, a topdecked Chalice may often be a dead card). For 1, what can you do, except nullify ten of your own cards ? Against Suicide ? Yes, if you manage to deal with it without being able to cast your Swords to Plowshares and your Brainstorms. Of course, you can cut off the Brainstorm and play more Impulse, but Keeper as already too many spells at 2cc – and MUD, TnT, Stacker & Co are able to cast a Chalice for 2 easily. These decks are also able to play around the Chalice, and I expect TnT to be quite strong in the new meta. And as Masknought may return as well, I am trying a quite special build…



Keeper


1 x Strip mine
4 x Wasteland
4 x Flooded Strand
3 x Underground Sea
3 x Volcanic Island
3 x Tundra
1 x City of Brass
1 x Library of Alexandria

1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Sol Ring

4 x Mana drain
4 x Force of Will
3 x Brainstorm
2 x Impulse
2 x Cunning Wish
1 x Fact or Fiction
1 x Future Sight
1 x Mystical Tutor
1 x Ancestral recall
1 x Time Walk

1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Yawgmoth’s Will
2 x Skeletal Scrying

1 x Fire/Ice

2 x Gorilla Shaman

1 x Decree of Justice
1 x Balance
2 x Swords to Plowshares
2 x Dismantic Blow


SB:

1 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Energy Flux
3 x Red Elemental Blast
1 x The Abyss
1 x Rack and Ruin
1 x Vampiric Tutor
2 x Tormod’s Crypt
1 x Coffin Purge
1 x Disenchant
3 x Chalice of the Void



I think that Dismantic Blow will be great against almost all decks, or at least very useful.

I believe more in a Keeper like this one; but it may be a mistake. However, I am not satisfied with current lists using a full set of Chalices. Oh, and I think you should try another deck if you are thinking about breaking Isochron Scepter. Something like an Urphids without Phids...

[Matt The Great]

Chalice for 0 doesn't stop ten cards, only five or six (Lotus/Moxen), depending on whether you run Emerald. Force of Will is unaffected by a zero-Chalice.

[LemanRuss]

I said it was nullifiying ten cards for one, not zero. My opinion is Chalice is too situationnal if you expect to play it at zero unless your are playing against a deck like Long, so you can mulligan agressivly to have one in first hand. But against MUD ? Ok, having one Chalice in opening hand is not bad, and might ever be cool, but in the mid game they are useless. Against most of the deck, Chalice for zero is not better.

[jpmeyer]

Chalice is a very strong card in your opening hand against Mud.  Chalice=0 can buy you a ton of time against them, and Chalice=1 stops a huge threat in Goblin Welder.

I think people just get too hung up on cards that do damage to you in some way without noticing how minor the damage ends up being.  Chalice is reminding me a lot of Psychatog and Demonic Consultation in this way, in that you lose cards that you very well were never even going to need.

[LemanRuss]

Quote Chalice is reminding me a lot of Psychatog and Demonic Consultation in this way, in that you lose cards that you very well were never even going to need.

I agree with this, but I think trading your 4 Brainstorms and your Shamans against 4 Goblin Welders is not so fair, especially if you have another way to deal with it (Swords to Plowshares for exemple). I am not saying Chalice is always bad and not worth it, but I think the deck could be more synergistic if these are sideboarded. But this is certainly a mistake, I just wanted to open a new way of playtesting...

[Eastman]

Let's assume, for purposes of discussion, that Chalice is definitely part of Neo-Keeper. Leman if you'd like you could start another thread particularly pertaining to Chalice.


Having definitely decided on that point, and being aware that the majority of others on this site have as well, I'd rather keep this thread centered around more useful developments...\n\n

[Grendal]

I love the new design...

However...   There are a few aspects of it that do not set well with me…

My biggest fear still comes from its inability to handle early creature based threats, aside from Force of Will.

It has been suggested in this thread that Abyss be included back into the main deck.   Now although I do like Abyss, I worry that the synergy between Abyss/Decree might not be quite what you are looking for, especially considering that Decree isn't always a (make 10-20 Weenies), and swing for the kill.   I think ideally a lot of times just cycling Decree for a 3-5 count can actually be very game breaking.

Still though, the low anti-creature count in this most recent build still has me scared.

Someone suggested that including Vampiric in the deck:
-1 Gorilla Shaman
+1 Vampiric Tutor

Now although I think that this would be a good addition, I have to at the same time oppose this suggestion as well.  The inclusion of a Vampiric would certainly allow for more flexible options.  Being able to fetch a Balance or Yawgwill quicker, or even get the monkey if you so desired.   My only con against this is that the monkey is just so damn handy in controlling not only your opponent’s chalices, but as JP said above, those of your own late game.   A chalice for 0 early may be in your best interest, but 10 turns down the road following a large reload, perhaps getting rid of your own chalice to drop a hand full of moxen/lotus would actually be beneficial.   At that time the stall tactic has already worked, and even if you can not replace the chalice with another, it’s still more than done its job.   So actually going down to a single monkey, just doesn’t seem worth it.   Nor does using a Vampiric tutor to get one, when it’s abundantly obvious, that virtually no one would ever tutor for a monkey, when there are clearly better things to tutor for.  

Still though, the lack of early creature removal is a fear of mine.   Gang blocking with a bunch of 1/1's isn't something I would want to do, nor is chump blocking with a bunch of 1/1's one by one until such time as u can find an answer, in my opinion an ideal way of handling creatures.

All in all I think the deck is really on the right track, but there is still a component missing.   Imagine a 1st turn Kird Ape vs. this current design.   That could actually be a game win, and it could easily be worse.  1st turn Juggernaughts and Phryexian Dreadnaughts aren't unheard of either.   Both of these could easily be seen 1st turn, and this latest build would pretty much have to roll over if they don't have a force of will in hand.

The way the current build stands, it seems as though it’s very strong, yet a lot of its strength does rely on resolving an Isochron Scepter.   Now I know JP originally said this is what he wanted to stay away from, and I know Zherbus himself has flat out gone the route of Skeletal Scrying to avoid this.   It still very much comes down to quickly achieving some sort of a draw engine, and drawing into an even smaller amount of anti-creature threat cards, than previous versions have packed.   Zherbus’s build makes me feel a bit better in that he has more anti-creature removal, as well as more search (impulse).  The only part that I don’t like about his is that he doesn’t have Isochron.

That is the biggest toss up for me.   Isochron is one of those cards that you do not want to rely on to make your deck function, yet at the same time, anyone who has tested the card can quickly attest to the fact that if you do resolve one with any sort of draw under it (even brainstorm) it virtually hands you’re the game in terms of control.

Ahhh well… enough ranting for now…   those are my thoughts…

- Grendal

[hippie tourach]

The deck actually has a rather high anti-creature count. Multiple StPs and Fire/Ices are showing up in some of these decks, along with more in the sideboard for Cunning Wish to grab. Not to mention CotV, which is essentially an anti-creature card except against decks with mana curves.

What the deck doesn't have is a creature hoser, namely The Abyss. (Actually it does have a creature hoser, Balance). But if assumptions as to the new metagame are correct, with less aggro and certainly more Workshop decks, Mirrodin is definitely not a reason to add Abyss.

You say you are afraid of first-turn Juggernaught or Dreadnaught. What will Abyss do about them?

[Matt The Great]

My listed deck has an Abyss. It's called "Imprinting a Swords" and it works on artifact creatures, too!

[hippie tourach]

And it's a combo between a 3-of and a 2-of.

Where the 2-of won't be held in hand if the 3-of isn't already there.

[Grendal]

Quote What the deck doesn't have is a creature hoser, namely The Abyss. Actually it does have a creature hoser, Balance. But if assumptions as to the new metagame are correct, with less aggro and certainly more Workshop decks, Mirrodin is definitely not a reason to add Abyss.

You say you are afraid of first-turn Juggernaught or Dreadnaught. What will Abyss do about them?

I do not think you read what I wrote quite how I had intended.   I was by no means suggesting Abyss was the creature hoser needed to defend against first round threats such as Juggernaught/Dreadnaught.   I think I am clearly advocating that the deck does not have enough anti-creature.   Be it in the form of an abyss, or the fact that a single stp/balance with 2 cunning wishes will be enough.   I don't want to lose a game just because some guy got lucky and drew a Kird Ape and a Taiga in his opening hand, and I wasn't packing the force of will to stop it.

Quote My listed deck has an Abyss. It's called "Imprinting a Swords" and it works on artifact creatures, too!

Again, using JP's design as the example here, the chance of you drawing the single Swords to Plowshares and one of the 2 Scepters isn't likely, and it is highly probable that by the time you could actually wish for an stp, lay a Scepter, imprint the Scepter, and use the Scepter, that vs a 1st turn juggernaught, you would already be dead.

Heck, even against that first turn Kird Ape it could be rough.   Assuming he went first.

His round 1 move he lays land/mox drops kird ape and bolts (17 life).  Your round 1 move u lay land/mox, and drop Chalie for 1.  His round 2 move he deals 2 w. Kird Ape (15).   Your round 2 move you lay land, and wish for Swords to Plowshares.  his round 3 move, he deals 2 more dropping you to (13).   It isn't until your 3rd round that you could actually deal with the creature.   Heaven forbid if he had laid a Goblin Lackey or the like, at which time you are now fumbling around trying to get a Scepter to imprint your swords on.   All this because someone dropped a first round creature on you.   Change that Kird Ape to a Hypnotic Spectre and now you have to pray he doesn't pick your Cunning Wish, and you must also hope he doesn't play Hymn to Tourach his 2nd turn, being as though you still wouldn't be able to counter, being as though you didn't have a force of will, and the chance of your opening mox being the sapphire is unlikely as well.


If you remember right, The Deck (Keeper) prior to Mirrodin was packing upwards of 3 STP's, 3 or more Cunning Wish, and still had Merchant/Mystical/Balance, with some designs still incorporating The Abyss main deck.   Not to mention having Morphling/Masticore of the like to possibly chump block in a pinch.

Old Design
+3 StP
+3 Cunning Wish
+1 Balance
+1 Mystical
+1 Merchant
+1 The Abyss
---------------
10 Possible Anti Creature Cards


New Design
+1 StP
+2 Cunning Wish
+1 Balance
+1 Mystical Tutor
-----------------
5 Possible Anti Creature Cards


The number of anti-creature solutions have been cut in half.   Now I am not saying that the new environment might not warrant some cutting here or there, but the chance that you will see a first turn juggernaught/phrexian, or even worse, a first turn Hypnotic Spectre, hasn't changed at all.   Yes, if Keeper goes first, there is a greater chance that it can protect themselves from these threats...  but i'm not quite convinced I want to base my ability to win on who can roll a D20 better.

I'm not disagreeing that an StP on a Isochron isn't a good thing, but as it stands now its a highly unlikely thing.   Its something that might happen assuming you have established yourself on the board, but its actually getting to that point where you can establish yourself that has me the most worried.

Zherbus's build has me feeling a little bit better, but he still doesn't pack scepter, which I believe is a must due to its brokeness earl/mid/late game.   My only fear now is that Keeper's biggest weakness in those first few rounds, is now even greater than before, in that Keeper lacks the ability it once had to deal with those early threats.

- Grendal

[jpmeyer]

I look at it more like this:

Old:

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cunning Wish
1 Balance
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 The Abyss
(10)

New:

3 Chalice of the Void
2 Cunning Wish
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor (I like the idea of replacing a Shaman with it)
1 Demonic Tutor
(10)

I think you're mostly just underestimating Chalice of the Void.  Even if they get that turn 1 Kird Ape in before you drop your Chalice, you still have probably at least 7 turns before it will kill you.  He might still have some Incinerates or whatever to help speed it up, but you're not on any kind of clock so you have plenty of time to fetch that Balance or to use that Decree.

The worst-case scenario to me would be turn 1 Lackey into Siege-Gang Commander.  Even if they kill you with that, I can't see any way that they would be able to take games 2 and 3.  In game 2 you can practically just mulligan into turn 1 Chalice (which you've boarded up to 4) and get the concession, and in game 3 where you actually have to play it out since you're going second, you should have no trouble winning since you've just added 2 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Fire/Ice, 1 BEB, and 1 Chalice to your maindeck.

[Matt The Great]

Quote Again, using JP's design as the example here,

Well I won't speak for JPs list. You're more than welcome to look at the one I posted and was talking about, however.

Quote His round 1 move he lays land/mox drops kird ape and bolts (17 life).  Your round 1 move u lay land/mox, and drop Chalie for 1.  His round 2 move he deals 2 w. Kird Ape (15).   Your round 2 move you lay land, and wish for Swords to Plowshares.  his round 3 move, he deals 2 more dropping you to (13).   It isn't until your 3rd round that you could actually deal with the creature.   Heaven forbid if he had laid a Goblin Lackey or the like, at which time you are now fumbling around trying to get a Scepter to imprint your swords on.   All this because someone dropped a first round creature on you.  

Please explain how an Abyss would have made this any better.

And then I'll invite you to notice that while Abyss is solely a way to seal the game up, so is Scepter, except Scepter isn't dead vs control and is a lot cheaper.

Quote Change that Kird Ape to a Hypnotic Spectre and now you have to pray he doesn't pick your Cunning Wish, and you must also hope he doesn't play Hymn to Tourach his 2nd turn, being as though you still wouldn't be able to counter, being as though you didn't have a force of will, and the chance of your opening mox being the sapphire is unlikely as well.

Pray nothing. We play Brainstorm for a reason.\n\n

[CrazyCarl]

Quote His round 1 move he lays land/mox drops kird ape and bolts (17 life).  Your round 1 move u lay land/mox, and drop Chalie for 1.  His round 2 move he deals 2 w. Kird Ape (15).   Your round 2 move you lay land, and wish for Swords to Plowshares.

You're casting that Swords to Plowshares how exactly?

[Vegeta2711]

A problem with counting Chalice as an anti creatrue card arises, as is it fails to be overly relevant against Madness, TnT and Stacker 3. These 3 decks are really the only decent forms of aggro anyways. (As yes Chalice does cripple the other budget aggro decks, not that they were very good before.)

All the threats in Madness are diff. mana CC's including some rather high ones to begin with.

Against TnT and Stacker 3 the most you can do is stop Welders/Shaman as unless your hiding 8 mana somewhere your not dropping Chalice for 4.\n\n

[jpmeyer]

Chalice=0 does take a lot of the speed out of Madness, though.  At that point they need to play a little more fairly, which is a problem because it opens them up to Mana Drain, which is deadly.  This is also somewhat true with Stacker since it will buy you that turn or so that you need to get Mana Drain online.