Paragon Keeper 2003 (Zherbus Remix)

[Zherbus]

Quote OK.  Good point.  What do you consider to be "the rest of the field" then?  Sligh?  Stompy?  Random stuff?  It would seem to me that Masticore is inferior to Morphling when playing against TnT.   Also, if you don't drop the Core' "until it's time to win" against Tog, then isn't Morphling better?  It gives your opponent one less turn, doesn't cost cards, etc...

It's not bad at all against TnT, and I we both agree that Morphling is better against Tog. I really expect there to be a pick up in weenie based aggro in the format, and thats my justification. Who knows? I could hate it! So far its been okay, but I need to see what turns out for the metagame before I'll know for sure.

Quote You mentioned Sligh earlier, but I would guess that your deck would have a very bad match-up against Ankh Sligh packing 4 Price of Progress and Cursed Scrolls.  Am I wrong?

You aren't wrong. Well piloted Sligh is always tough, but I wouldn't say it's my worst matchup. If by bad matchup you meant am I having too much trouble beating it? No, not really. In theory, it has all the tools to beat Keeper, but doesn't do so as much as it should.

You've heard it before; broken draws, Mind Twist, etc. I gotta say though, that the sideboarded gush has saved my ass against more than one PoP.

I also have the luxery of playing in an area where Sligh can't concentrate on Keeper, as I am one of few Keeper players in New England. If I played somewhere with enough Keeper players that Sligh could hate more on it, I would imagine I'd take a good share of losses to it.

No, we still use Balance. It's just that I used to use it alot more back when aggro was bigger. I was just stating that with the decrease in aggro, Balance isnt tutored for as much.

@FDZero - It wasn't bad, but it didn't impress me either. In testing, it could rarely get above a 13/14. It sounds bad ass, but in the long run it takes longer to swing for 5-7 more damage than it does to just swing 4 times with Morphling.

[Fever]

Alright, i realize how horrid this is going to sound, but hear me out. If you decide to go back to Geyser over Scrying, i think you should consider Deep Analysis instead.

:: ducks behind  his desk ::

Look, how often do you pump more than 4 colorless into a Geyser? Very rarely i would imagine, at least if your experiences are anywhere near mine. DA gives you just as many cards per mana as Geyser does, with the obvious drawback of costing you some life. However, its major advantage is that it is actually two spells, which means your opponent needs to counter both halves of that "Geyser". Its also clearly superior vs discard, though that shouldnt be a main selling point.

I think that fact that you can draw two right now, and then two more a little later is a big plus. It has some advantages over Scrying, such as being blue and not having any mandatory life-loss. Anyway, i realise how scrubby it seems, but i think i would rather run that than Geyser. Just a thought.\n\n

[Radagast]

Amazing. Almost every single unorthodox card I use in Keeper is picked up by the Paragons weeks/months/years later, due to metagame changes.  (I was tempted to use "excuse" somewhere in there, but that is only really true for one or two of them at best. Most of them did get better due to metagame changes. At any rate, they worked very well for me in whatever previous metagames we've had as well.) I have been using Duress for roughly a year, Scrying since shortly after the card was released (which was coincidentally around the time I started understanding Keeper), Future Sight since it was released (yes, I'm a sucker for powerful and relatively cheap card drawing; and I also love parentheses, which is why I generally prefer the written word to spoken ones, despite the relative ineffectiveness of sarcasm), and fetchlands since they were released (loved the "they screw up the manabase" excuse, I really did; could hardly have been more ironic if Douglas Adams had somehow been behind it all). My record is far from perfect, though. I only started using Cunning Wish around the time everyone else did - a week or two later in fact as I was still toying with Living, and would never in an arbitrarily long amount of time have ever seriously thought of using Brainstorm (though I should have). And I am downright ashamed of not being the one to invent (or: "discover") GAT, which is the most beautiful deck ever to be built. It's a work of art.
Anyways.

Thoughts:

1) Zuran Orb. This is the definition of a "lose less" card. You destroy your - now solid, but not excellent - mana base in exchange for a few points of life, which your opponent will promptly take away the very next turn, and you cannot do a thing about it because you don't have the mana. The only decks it has ever been good against are horrible ones like SRB and the Zoo version of that same deck; and asides from the fact that they are completely gone from the metagame, COP:Red is better against them while being about as useful versus anything else. I could see a case being made for this card in something like Your Mother which is built to abuse Future Sight and has Fastbond as well (though I think it's unnecessary there too, as Tendrils of Agony in the sideboard would both fulfill its purpose and win the game), but not in this deck. If you need life gain effects (and you might, with 2 Scryings and Vampiric), you could use Renewed Faith or sideboard Renounce (in which case you could add in the 4th Brainstorm over the Orb), which does nearly the same thing without being a dead card maindeck. Another humorous solution would be to run Psychatog(s) and STP it.

2) Masticore/The Abyss. While these are not horrible cards per se (though I strongly dislike Core for no particular reason I can point to), they are completely outclassed by Future Sight in almost every way except sinking Mana Drain mana. Future Sight is a generic Masticore/The Abyss which has the same effect as them against every deck in the metagame. It gives you mana and counters, Swords for creatures, and Duress against control, turn after turn. Effectively fulfilling the same purpose as The Abyss. In a properly constructed deck, it even wins you the game (see the win conditions in keeper thread in the T1 forum; 3/4 of my suggestions there are examples of this).

3) It might be worth investigating Academy again, especially if you ever decide to fit in the second Sight. Blue mana is suddenly a lot more valuable than it was before, and Mana Drain unfortunately does not provide it.

4) Deep Analysis. For once, I agree with Fever on this one. I prefer it in Your Mother-esque decks though, where you can Wish for it (over and over).

Other cards I dislike and would be rather happy if I could find  a way to cut, but haven't yet: Wasteland (this just doesn't fit in with the rest of the deck, and I hate running these just to have a way to deal with Library; then again, Duress (+ Future Sight) *might* be enough), Morphling (I SO want to replace this with Future Sight; if it weren't for the fact that Shattering Pulse and REB are red and there isn't anything in the other colors to replace them, I would drop red for green and do just that without even thinking about it).

My goal?
Keeper as beautiful, fluid, synergistic, and unstoppable as GAT.

[Fever]

Quote (Radagast @ June 03 2003,13:00)4) Deep Analysis. For once, I agree with Fever on this one. I prefer it in Your Mother-esque decks though, where you can Wish for it (over and over).

I dont recall us ever getting into any sort of argument over card selection in Keeper. Perhaps i have forgotten?

Also, you have to realize that Keeper is the most metagame-dependant deck ever. The content can change drastically from one area to another depending on what decks are more prevalent, not to mention playstyle differences and attachment to "old-school" cards. Therefore, i dont think you can really find an "optimal" build for Keeper, because it will be different for everyone.

[Saucemaster]

Quote Also, you have to realize that Keeper is the most metagame-dependant deck ever. The content can change drastically from one area to another depending on what decks are more prevalent, not to mention playstyle differences and attachment to "old-school" cards. Therefore, i dont think you can really find an "optimal" build for Keeper, because it will be different for everyone.

While I agree with Fever's general point here, I'd also like to chime in to say that the recent Paragon lists have been very, very strong.  I hadn't touched Keeper for a long while until this last week at C&J's (I'd last played it shortly before most people dropped Green), and I was very surprised.  I went 3-2 with it, but the deck was performing much better than that record suggests, and I'm not even a good Keeper player.  These Keeper builds actually remind me alot of OSE with White added; you can afford to play much, much more proactively and answers seem to materialize in your hand all by themselves.  Duress seems the next logical step.

Though I did very well with the lone Future Sight, I'm starting to wonder if I want another one.  I still vaguely suspected it would be a "win more" card despite the number of strong players who were espousing its inclusion.  I was totally wrong.  It was an absolute life-saver at least twice, and it cemented my control beyond doubt in a number of other games where I would have spent precious turns just for the *possibility* of doing so otherwise.  It feels like Necropotence once it resolves.  I know kl0wn has gone to two maindeck, and so has CrazyCarl, I think?

Scrying was less good to me, but my metagame is very aggro-oriented at times.

As for Masticore... I understand this inclusion is still in testing, but even in my aggro-heavy metagame I don't feel much need for him.  Relatedly, I'd echo Zherbus' thoughts here and say that, surprisingly, Ankh Sligh hasn't been a problem (I've been testing the deck for a bit, prior to taking it to this last tournament).  You could argue that my Ankh Sligh opponents haven't been very good (though a few of them have), but on the other hand, I'm a crappy Keeper player.  

So while the "optimal" build definitely changes in different metagames, I'm starting to think that Zherbus' basic skeleton is very damn close to optimal.  So from a region of the Type 1 metagame where Keeper is frequently derided, I'd just like to say, "Damn!  Well done."

Last note/question: how has SB Vampiric Tutor been working for those who've been playing it?  On the one hand, you get access to it alot more frequently with 3x Cunning Wish, which is nice, and ensures that no matter what situation you're in, as long as you can spare a turn, Wish is always incredibly useful; on the other, UB2 + 2 life and lose a card, even at instant speed, feels like a bad Diabolic Tutor (shudder).  Vamp's biggest plus has always been the incredibly low casting cost.  Maindeck, maybe?  (Sorry, I'm really not trying to start that debate again, I promise!  But maybe with Future Sight, the desire for more shuffling with Brainstorm?... just throwing it out there.)

[Radagast]

Quote I dont recall us ever getting into any sort of argument over card selection in Keeper. Perhaps i have forgotten?

We haven't personally, and not over Keeper, I just don't generally agree with you. For example, the restrict Gush/Intuition/Merchant Scroll/God knows what else campaign.

And yes, Keeper is a metagame dependant deck. As is every other deck. Unlike every other deck, Keeper has been either tier 1 or close to it since the dawn of time, and the skeleton of it has remained mostly intact. If the metagame changes, Future Sight would remain the primary engine of the deck, and only the fuel would change. (God that was a bad analogy. Something with a machine gun might be more appropriate.)

[jpmeyer]

I love Deep Anal to death but really its only job is to give a reliable card drawer in a control-filled environment.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

The new Keeper Decks look VERY consistent. With the restriction of Gush, it looks as if the decks to beat now-a-days are:

Keeper
TnT
Rector-Trix
Hulk

Looking at that, I would assume Gorilla Shaman would be making a comeback. All of the decks run a full set of jewelry (except Hulk(-1 Sol Ring) and Keeper (-1 Mox)). It seems like the shaman has gotten a bit better. Can it possibly replace the fire/ice spot? I've tested it, and it seemed really strong. As for the deep anal, I REALLY like the idea, and will try 1 main (for scrying). I don't see MisD very often, and scrying sometimes hurts. In any case, the new keeper decks look great.

[Fever]

@Radagast

People may have disagreed with my and Legend's proposed changes to the restricted list, thats fine, everyone is intitled to their own opinion. However, i find it interesting to note that, in all likelyhood, all three cards you mentioned will eventually be restricted. Gush was the first one to get the axe, and deservedly so, but it wont be the last. After all, how can Wizards justify restricting Entomb yet leave Intuition unrestricted?


Getting back to Keeper. Obviously i think Steve's list is excellent, of that there is no doubt. I was just stating that its the most customizable deck out there, which makes it incredibly difficult to find one optimal build.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (jpmeyer @ June 03 2003,14:56)I love Deep Anal

i'm sorry... i coudn't resist

coincidentally, sorry for spamming your thread... and i think that scrying looks much better than deep anal.

[fdzero]

I just noticed you weren't running Powder Keg in your last two builds. Don't you miss it? Now it could be very good with the return of weenie aggro decks you're expecting, couldn't it?

[CrazyCarl]

I got the idea from kl0wn(though I think I was toying around with the idea before he actually played with it.  Though he was definately playing with it first ) and we both have had nothing but good experiances with them.  Alot of the time you'll cast the first Future Sight and your opponent, after expending many turns and resources, will get rid of it, only to find you have a second at your disposal.

The sideboarded Vamp is amazing.  I use it to fetch Future Sight first most of the time, then after Yawgmoth's Will, I reuse it for Morphling.  Not always mind you, but often the game plays out like that.

Disenchant is just plain better than Allay in the sideboard.  I personally run(ran) 2(before I switched to my secret deck. ting!).

I also played with Future Sight on a whim(only for a few games) and in general I wasn't pleased(these were control mirrors), so I really guess I can't give an informed opinion.

I'm still against Gush in the sideboard though

[ScaldMonger]

I recently ran Keeper in a VERY heavy aggro environment, with the inclusion of 2 kegs. It was amazing in that sort of a field. If your going to look at Keg to just go after Welders, Moxen, then I think a Mox Monkey would just do better. (although he can't hit welders-there are plenty of ways to still wipe them out)


I think I will try to keep 1 Keg main, but not more than that. I ran 1 FS, and it was real good, I will most definately attempt to squeeze a second one in.

The Deep Anal looks better than Scrying. I didn't once use the Scrying, or even want to (besides the aggro already chomping away at my life), I always had other things to do that seemed more important. Keeper has a much much more aggressive feel than before, and I think Duress, like others said, is the perfect card to continue this more aggressive trend.

[Rico Suave]

I love Skeletal Scrying.  Deep Anal is 4 mainphase mana, which is not appealing in any match.  If it won the game, sure I'd be all for it.  But it's only 2 cards.

If weenie aggro was making a comeback of sorts, Fire/Ice would be a lot stronger/flexible than Powder Keg.

[ScaldMonger]

I agree on the Powder Keg.  I actually ran 1 fire/ice main and 1 SB along with 2 MD STP and 1 SB, so my findings might not be the best since I did run such heavy aggro hosers. I also ran a MD Abyss, and SB Moat. Fire/Ice is nice in that it can be scrolled for, pitched, mystical tutored for.

[Zherbus]

Quote I just noticed you weren't running Powder Keg in your last two builds. Don't you miss it? Now it could be very good with the return of weenie aggro decks you're expecting, couldn't it?

It's just too lopsided in some matchups to be maindeck material, and there is better things to run in the board.

Quote The sideboarded Vamp is amazing.  I use it to fetch Future Sight first most of the time, then after Yawgmoth's Will, I reuse it for Morphling.  Not always mind you, but often the game plays out like that.

I'd just like to point out that Carl and I are pretty evenly skilled. When we play, it always rounds out to 50/50 split, but man do we play different. I, on one hand am more aggressive, yet play it safe, while he tends to be more flashy and gets away with it. He is such a Miser.

Quote I love Deep Anal to death but really its only job is to give a reliable card drawer in a control-filled environment.

It a'ight, and certainly an option. I won't be using it because I really want an instant, and if I go with a Sorcery I can go nutty with whatever value X happens to be.

Quote <Insert misc. discussion on various critter kill here.>

<Insert obligatory comments about metagames, global and local, and the effect of which critter removal is best for each corrisponding metagame.>

[Fever]

@Zherbus

How about running Geyser in the Fire/Ice slot in addition to Scrying, to give you even more card drawing? I mean, if you are unsure about a slot, i dont think there is such a thing as too much draw.

[Mith]

Regarding Masticore:
If the fear is the resurgence of aggro decks (i.e Sligh, etc), why not start running an Abyss again? The same can be said about Fire/Ice...although I have never been as much of a fan of that card.

Duress is an interesting direction...certainly a more agressive direction of control. I'm not sure whether I agree with that choice or not, but I'm certainly going to try it out.

And I definetly want to hear more about how Gush is working out in the sideboard.

[Zherbus]

Quote If the fear is the resurgence of aggro decks (i.e Sligh, etc), why not start running an Abyss again?

Because Abyss is decidedly weaker against many decks including Smokestack, Rector Trix, and TnT. It's also Marginal against Hulk because they have Duress and Naturalize.

[Jamino]

Hello everyone,
Well, I think this is a big Jump for keeper. However, im not sure in what direction. I have tested with Duress, and without Duress and I come to the conclusion, Duress is an amazing card, however, it doesnt belong in keeper. Every card in keeper has an addition effect. Its not just one card that will do someything alone, every card has synergy with every other card. Look at Counterspell and ManaDrain, reason we play Drain, cause alouse us to cast bigger spells faster...Synergy. Duress does nothing of this, its a spell great in itself, but just doesnt belong in the deck, in my opinion.
Masticore? Why? Keeper aggro in control? Dont you think that with all the swords ur packing you have enough? If aggro really does cause you so much trouble wouldnt Abyss still be better? Sure, not as good againt Rector Trix, Stax, and all, but cant it be sided out later for another swords? I have always found it to give you the time you need to set up and gain control.
As you say,  if oyu think theryre will be so much aggro, don tyou think that pitching a card is not what you want to do? And have Masticore chumpblocked, and saving them an extra turn, when you can just kill them with a Morphling more efficently? One or two turns can make a big difference vs Good Aggro decks.
Just some thoughts,
          Jamino

[CrazyCarl]

Quote (Zherbus @ June 04 2003,04:19)

Quote The sideboarded Vamp is amazing.  I use it to fetch Future Sight first most of the time, then after Yawgmoth's Will, I reuse it for Morphling.  Not always mind you, but often the game plays out like that.

I'd just like to point out that Carl and I are pretty evenly skilled. When we play, it always rounds out to 50/50 split, but man do we play different. I, on one hand am more aggressive, yet play it safe, while he tends to be more flashy and gets away with it. He is such a Miser.

You're just jealous that you don't have 2 Future Sights in your deck.

AND FIT IN THAT FOURTH BRAINSTORM DAMMIT!!!

[Fever]

Carl, i have been telling Steve to add a 4th Brainstorm since April, good luck convincing him  

[Mith]

Carl & Fever: Have both of you dropped fire/ice? I wouldn't mind a 4th Brainstorm...but I don't think I've got the room for it unless I dropped fire/ice (which has been on the shitlist for a while now) or good ol' Mox Monkey (who I'd rather not drop)

Fever, maybe you could post your current version in your thread?

EDIT: Nevermind...looks like your post is closed

[Fever]

Well, its tough to compare my version to Steve's right now, since he is testing a bunch of different things. However, since i dont really pay too much attention to Keeper anymore, i decided having my own thread was a waste. Heres my decklist, it probably wont change for some time:

Spells (31)
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 Mind Twist
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fire/Ice
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
1 Deep Analysis
1 Future Sight
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Counterspell

Creatures (2)
2 Morphling

Mana (27)
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria
1 City of Brass
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Gush
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ebony Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Aura Fracture

[Green Knight]

Quote Quote  
<Insert misc. discussion on various critter kill here.>


<Insert obligatory comments about metagames, global and local, and the effect of which critter removal is best for each corrisponding metagame.>

Zherb that rocks! Very Ammusing, but true :oP

I have played the 'Core in the past, (you suggested it actually)and really liked it, but it is meta-dependent...
I really like him w/ Tinker and a Collosus MD, but thats my janky tech  

[Mith]

I give in...that 4th Brainstorm and second Future Sight are MONEY!

I miss my Mox Monkey...but Fire/Ice had it coming.

[jpmeyer]

If you run 4 Brainstorm you can go down to 26 mana.  If you have the extra random cantrip like Fire/Ice it's almost automatic.  It'll be OK.\n\n

[Mith]

At the moment, my mana base is:

Mana (27)
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria
2 City of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island

I've never really counted the Sol Ring a true mana source, but Carl mentioned dropping a wasteland in his build. I'm not so sure about that..heck, I'd run 4 Waste + 1 Strip if I could \n\n

[ShadowLotus]

Quote (Mith @ June 05 2003,14:11)I've never really counted the Sol Ring a true mana source, but Carl mentioned dropping a wasteland in his build. I'm not so sure about that..heck, I'd run 4 Waste + 1 Strip if I could

I know how you feel, since I was running (5) Strips for a while, too, since they were so effective in the environment (especially against GAT, which has been dealt a major blow from the restriction - take that, crappy players who think they can play control! ), but cutting back to (26) mana sources with the full set of MD Brainstorms runs extremely smoothly.  It's really the way to go; and it gives you yet another slot for business spells, rather than running extra land that might or might not be helpful in the mid- to late-game.

For reference, here's the manabase I currently use:

1x Library of Alexandria
3x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
3x Volcanic Island
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Sol Ring

I'm still not a huge fan of City of Brass in Keeper's manabase, when there's the option of running fetchlands out there, but I understand that the Cities do help in improving the chances of not getting color-screwed in general.

[jpmeyer]

ShadowLotus has the exact mana base that I have in my Keeper test deck.  It's really smooth.