Breaking Future Sight

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Zherbus mentioned the idea to add Future Sight to Keeper in place of the Braingeyser for MisD-heavy environments in the Paragon-Keeper 2003 thread in the EVF. I myself decided earlier after testing FS that it is far from optimal in "normal" Keeper.

I do think Future Sight can be broken in a keeper-similar combo-control deck designed to abuse it, though. Gerhard-Swen Weinhold-Markus (usually Elric, but I'm not sure if he has a tmd account) played something in the recent Dülmen tourneys that tried exactly that (can be seen here, 8th in the t8: http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=11 ). After Womprax repeatedly questioned me how to make his own version of that deck better (it's similar to keeper and he seems to think I'm pretty good at playing that...), I remembered my ComboKeeper listing from last summer (report and decklist: http://www.morphling.de/reportarchiv.php?report=11).
The Morphling was dead weight in there anyways and the Sight would have fit perfectly into the deck. Making a few adjustments for newly discovered/printed cards I present now my version of ComboKeeper for 2003.

The Shining

        1 Undiscovered Paradise
        2 Tundra
        2 Tropical Island
        2 Volcanic Island
        2 Flooded Strand
        2 Polluted Delta
        2 Underground Sea
        2 City of Brass
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Grim Monolith
        
        1 Scroll Rack
        1 Zuran Orb
        
        2 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Balance
        
        1 Sylvan Library
        1 Fastbond
        1 Regrowth
        
        1 Mind Twist
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        
        2 Future Sight
        1 Stroke of Genius
        1 Braingeyser
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Trade Routes
        1 Power Artifact
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Mystical Tutor
        2 Brainstorm
        2 Cunning Wish
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain

Sideboard:

1 Vocanic Geyser
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Allay
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Ebony Charm
1 Misdirection
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Read the Runes
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Swords to Plowshares

It obviously is 61 cards, which is bad. I'd also like to fit a MisD and the Enlightened into the MD. I also miss the presence of 2 Wastelands. But I can't find room.  

Winning is achieved through one of two combos creating enough mana to Braingeyser or Wish->Volcanic Geyser the opponent.
The first is the well-known GrimPower combo (hate it or love it, here it IS better than Superman). Not much to tell here.

The other is Tolarian Academy, Fastbond and Trade Routes. As Academy and Fastbond should be there anyways (wait for further elaboration), Trade Routes seems to be a natural fit to add a second winning option. Not that it's absolutely useless on it's own  .

The very atypical-cards for a keeper deck.

Fastbond:
If you get a Future Sight and Fastbond on the table, it gets absolutely ridiculous. You can draw half your deck during that one round. If you happen to find a ZOrb it can be even more. This alone is worth including green and butchering the mana base a little.

Scroll Rack: Not bad on it's own (reusable Brainstorm, Fetches and Tutors make it quite good, really) and absolutely broken with Future Sight. You draw cards and stack the others so that you can play them all from the top of you library.

Sylvan: I have green and it was a staple in Keeper before green got cut. It's also quite good with Sight, making sure you at least have a land to play from the top of your library instead of your hand.

SB:
Enlightened Tutor: It can give you a missing combo-piece, FS or Fastbond. I would MD it, if I had room, but this way it makes my Wishes additional FS Tutors, which is quite good, too.

Read the Runes: I stole this one from Dragon. If you assembled GrimPower and don't have RR for Volcanic Geyser (quite probable with this mana base) you just draw your eck and mana from all your lands. Afterwards you sac them to RtR and Keep all the counters and a kill card.

Volcanic Geyser: Academy + Fastbond + Trade Routes do often not generate enough mana to cast RtR to find you kill. It does allow you to trade colorless mana (or U from the Academy) + 1 life for a mana of any color a land you control could produce. So this will allow you to fetch VG with you Wish, use your Volcanic/City twice an burn the opponent.

The deck is very explosive, also I don't have much testing experience with it yet (aside from my knowledge from the last summer playings), though Womprax is testing a similar version of it. (After all we created it for him, I usually like playing true control better)
The mana base, bad as it looks, seems to work fine up to now. I will test this deck as soon as the next Dülmen is out of the way, until then I'll have to rely on Womprax results and my theoreticising from previous experience.

Why play this over any control- or combo-deck?

Well, usually control close to autowins against combo. this being combo-control, you can go the control way and win through building card-advantage with the usual draw magic and the super-bomb Future Sight. As usually if you are in control, it's quite irrelevant with what you finally kill, so the combo also works.
Against opposing combo you can just play control and therefor use it's weakness against control for it's success.  

It also can go ultrafast combo, given the right draw, which gives it an autowin against most aggrodecks once in a while. The MD matchup against aggro is usually not worse than Keepers (you have a lot of the cards keeper has against them and have the combos for a fast kill).
 
The extreme card-advantage FS generates in this deck is just to much for any deck to handle, so you WILL definitly win IF it resolves. This is not the case in an ordinary Keeper-build, at least from my experience with it, which is why I most probably won't play it there. I am looking for another card-drawer, though .

Definite Weaknesses:

The Manabase. My biggest problem right now, it looks quite fragile to me, but it seems to work for Womprax (as said, I didn't have much time for testing it myself since it's construction). The overall Wasteland-count is going back over here atm (as a lot of people play Growing Tog = no Wastelands), which will help a lot, IMO.

LoA: With only Strip Mine MD, it's quite probable that an opposing 1st turn LoA will spell your doom. I'm missing room for more lands or colorless sources, though.

Missing MD MisD: If the opponent knows about it, it gives them a lot more options for aggressive Ancestrals/Strokes. It also means you'll have a harder time resolving stuff, if you tap out to cast it (mainly Future Sight).

No Abyss/Moat: No autowins against Sui because of Lotus, land, Abyss. I don't think that is a big one, though, as this is not a play that happens that often.


Thx for all your time reading, maybe some of you will like what I have to share or can help me make it even better.

Oh, and a plea to all of you that just hate GrimPower or ComboControl: Don't just come here and say the combo is ass and all people playing it have to be idiots. All the successful german keeper players use it, the others are usually beaten up without much chance, for what ever that's worth. (though most of them play Growing Tog atm).
If you like to comment, test the deck or make theoretical suggestions what might make it better at what it does. Don't just flame. THX in advance.

[Fishhead]

Quote The Manabase. My biggest problem right now...

Yes, this was the first thing I noticed.  I wonder if its best to just walk away from Red to solidify the manabase.  Its tough since ReB is so good and since Wish->Volcanic Geyser is an important win condition.  But, you could move to a more KrOathan style manabase and consider the Duress/Negator anti-control sideboard.  Hard choice.

The other thing I worry about is that there are cards like Sylvan and Scroll Rack that are much better with a resolved Future Sight.  Are they good enough on their own to deserve a MD slot?  If you "just win" after resolving Future Sight, then do you need them?  Tough call, as they both are cool.  But are they cool enough?

Interesting deck though.  I will definitely give it a test-run.

[Womprax]

Future Sight  

// Lands
        2 City of Brass
        2 Flooded Strand
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Polluted Delta
        2 Tropical Island
        3 Tundra
        3 Underground Sea
        2 Volcanic Island
        1 Tolarian Academy
// Enchantments
        1 Power Artifact
        1 Fastbond
        2 Future Sight
        1 Sylvan Library
// Spells
        1 Ancestral Recall
        2 Brainstorm
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Stroke of Genius
        2 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        1 Balance
        1 Braingeyser
        2 Burning Wish
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Misdirection
        1 Mind Twist
        1 Regrowth
        1 Time Walk
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Artifacts
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Scroll Rack
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
// Sideboard
SB:  1 Chainer's Edict
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Deep Analysis
SB:  1 Duress
SB:  1 Fireball
SB:  1 Maze of Ith
SB:  1 Pyroclasm
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Timetwister
SB:  1 Vindicate
SB:  1 Upheaval <- Testing

This is my most recent build.
After serveral games of testing i am realy happy with the mana base.

Did i mention i love future sight?

[rozetta]

Since Keeper, up until Onslaught, always ran Sylvan Library, I'd assume that's pretty obviously a good card on it's own.

In the case of scroll rack, you could at least use it to dig for what you need in a pinch without FS in play, and with all the shuffle effects, it's gotta be almost as good as brainstorm.

This looks like fun and as soon as I get hold of a second FS, I might give it a try.

[Tamer]

Interesting build

The thing is does it beat gro-tog?

[rozetta]

I can't say a whole lot yet, since I really haven't had chance to test a lot, but it seems to do better versus groatog than other builds of Keeper that I've tried.

I've been trying to reason this in my mind and I basically came up with this theory:

Firstly, the morphlings in generic Keeper are not good in the tog matchup. They can't really block the creatures being thrown at you reliably, since those creatures are unmanageably big, in most cases, and berserk will push through lethal damage anyway. Having been essentially replaced with Future Sights, a huge bomb of a card advantage engine, they provide Keeper with two additional draw spells with which to fight the tog's engine. This means that Keeper has two more non-misdirectable spells to topdeck in the fight.

Additionally, the cheap threats of sylvan library, trade routes and scroll rack allow you to deplete their counters early game, allowing other spells such as swords, fact, balance, etc. to resolve more easily.

In this matchup, Keeper getting morphling on the table does not mean you've won, since they only need to resolve a tog, will or fastbond to win quite quickly. For those 4 turns you're trying to win with morphling, anything can happen to turn the tide of the game very quickly. I'm sure most people who have been testing this matchup will know that games very often turn into topdecking wars for the two sides, hence this fact really counts, especially since the tog deck will always topdeck better.

Since this build of Keeper will win instantly, the morphling problem is alleviated. More expensive answers such as abyss or moat (which will hardly ever resolve and pose no permanent threat to the tog deck) have been cut for more ways to draw into answers or broken plays.

The fact that this deck does not run wastelands was the other interesting dilemma, since I was assuming that sufficient disruption to the tog deck via LD would be good. However, this disruption costs the Keeper deck turns (loss of land drop) and also dilutes the mana base of crucial coloured mana needed for answers. Additionally, it seems that this disruption only serves to temporarily slow the tog deck down, since it can adequately function on only 2 lands, so will eventually make a strong comeback. Not to mention that the tog deck can often protect it's first island as a fetch land and then gain advantage by gushing in response to a wasteland or strip, which is inevitably a tempo advantage to the tog deck.

I know this is all theroetical, but it's the only logical way I could reason these results. More testing is definitely needed.

I believe that, as has been mentioned, a fundamental card required to win this matchup is Library of Alexandria. With that in mind, this deck does have the means to fetch it a little earlier (both black tutors). Keeping it running is actually a little difficult due to the necessity to expend a lot of cards in counter wars early game. With that in mind, I am wondering if it might be applicable to run some gushes in this build, possibly in place of some of the less threatening or slower card, e.g. brainstorms, trade routes and scroll rack. In this case, I'd replace the Academy with another island, probably an underground sea. This has the additional benefit of making the fastbond that much more useful, and makes will a lot stronger. I might test this out.

[Womprax]

// Lands
        2 City of Brass
        2 Flooded Strand
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Polluted Delta
        2 Tropical Island
        3 Tundra
        2 Underground Sea
        3 Volcanic Island
        1 Tolarian Academy
// Enchantments
        1 Power Artifact
        1 Fastbond
        2 Future Sight
        1 Sylvan Library
// Spells
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        1 Fact or Fiction
        2 Gush
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Stroke of Genius
        2 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        3 Burning Wish
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Regrowth
        1 Time Walk
// Artifacts
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Scroll Rack
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
// Sideboard
SB:  1 Balance
SB:  1 Braingeyser
SB:  1 Chainer's Edict
SB:  1 Deep Analysis
SB:  1 Duress
SB:  1 Fireball
SB:  1 Maze of Ith
SB:  1 Mind Twist
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Vindicate
SB:  1 Yawgmoth's Will


i worked with oliver on this version and after some testing the gushes are great.  

[OMIFUK!]

I missed the part where Mons asked people to spam his thread with decklists, I guess.

[rozetta]

Yep, that's the ticket. Gushes are great here. In fact I've been trying with 4 gushes and no brainstorms. Free untargeted card drawing, that saves you from LD, puts you back in library range and allows you to have more mana on your turn is something that, it seems, any deck running enough islands should have. These are exactly why the tog decks are good. I think this is, indeed, the future. My build, after preliminary observation, has little problem with the groatog matchup, even in game 1. Basically it looks like Mon's except:

- trade routes + gush
- scroll rack + gush
- 2 brainstorm + 2 gush
- undiscovered paradise + underground sea
- tolarian academy + tundra

and sideboard:
- read the runes + swords to plowshares

As with any deck running gush and fastbond, it's capable of killing on turn 1 if it gets fastbond and gush and draws into something useful. It's pretty far away from conventional keeper at this point, though.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I've recently been testing a version of combo-keeper using burning wish (very much like the build by womprax above) and wanted some feedback to see who else has been exploring this type of deck.

Here is my decklist with card explanations below:

Lands (20)
      1 City of Brass
      1 Library of Alexandria
      4 Polluted Delta
      1 Flooded Strand
      3 Tundra
      3 Underground Sea
      3 Volcanic Island
      1 Tolarian Academy
      1 Strip Mine
      2 Wasteland
// Enchantments (3)
      1 Power Artifact
      2 Future Sight
// Spells (29)
      1 Ancestral Recall
      3 Brainstorm
      1 Enlightened Tutor
      1 Fact or Fiction
      1 Chainer's Edict
      1 Mystical Tutor
      1 Stroke of Genius
      3 Swords to Plowshares
      4 Force of Will
      4 Mana Drain
      1 Misdirection
      4 Burning Wish
      1 Demonic Tutor
      1 Merchant Scroll
      1 Lim Dul's Vault
      1 Time Walk
// Artifacts (8)
      1 Grim Monolith
      1 Scroll Rack
      1 Black Lotus
      1 Mox Jet
      1 Mox Pearl
      1 Mox Ruby
      1 Mox Sapphire
      1 Sol Ring
// Sideboard (15)
SB:  1 Balance
SB:  1 Braingeyser
SB:  1 Deep Analysis
SB:  1 Vindicate
SB:  1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB:  1 Duress
SB:  1 Fireball
SB:  1 Circle of Protection Black
SB:  1 Circle of Protection Red
SB:  1 Aura Fracture (I ph34r the bloodmoon)
SB:  2 Morphling
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast

I placed 4th in a tournament yesterday with a build like this except for:
MD:
+1 Gush
-1 Chainer's Edict
SB:
+1 Timetwister
+1 Cleansing Meditation
+1 Chainers Edict
-1 Fireball
-1 Duress
-1 Deep Analysis

The major difference between my build and womprax' is not running green.  I came to this decision based on:
1) I don't believe you can support 5 colors and still run tolarian academy, grim monolith, and a decent number of strips.  i've found tolarian academy to be golden while trying to go off, and strips are almost necessary to combat GAT, fish & LoA.
2) Blue and black are essential, leaving Green, Red and White to contend for the last two spots.
3) Red gives access to burning wish, which has tremendous synergy with the deck (also allows you to put win conditions in the sb), and REB's which are great against control and aggro/control matchups.
4) While green offers the uber-broken future sight/fastbond combo and sylvan library's synergy with fetchlands, testing showed that today's aggro didn't give me enough time to go off.  White allows me to maindeck swords to plowshares and have balance and vindicate to tutor for.  combine this with the ability to run enlightened tutor and it was an easy decision.  you will also notice, that there isn't one green card in womprax' sideboard.

Now I'm just going to go over some of the more difficult deck construction decisions to see what people's reactions are.

3 Strips:  The biggest reason for this is that for any deck that doesn't plan on winning in the first 5 turns, you must consider library of alexandria.  This deck does not goldfish in 5 or less, so i felt this many strips is essential.  they have the added benefit of being good against GAT, and capable of taking out mishra's workshops, man-lands, and wierd stuff like bazaar of bagdad and rishadan ports.

tolarian academy:  This card can be a liability, but it just plain belongs in combo-keeper.  the mana acceleration is incredible once you get going with future sight.

3 brainstorm: i would have liked a 4th, but the mana base was pretty consistent with just 3.  also, while impulse will be better if chains of mephistopheles becomes popular (which probably won't happen given its rarity), the deck has enough tutors to get by without them.

enlightened tutor:  this was my friend adam's call, and it is complete gold.  this card gets you any combo piece, black lotus, and many of your sb bombs (CoP's and aura fracture)

3 swords to plowshares: i'm still trying to fit a 4th one in, even more so than brainstorm.  in today's meta, this card is gold.

Lim Dul's Vault: many people have chastised this card in keeper before.  however, with future sight its inclusion seems obvious.  especially when 'flashing back' with yawgmoth's will, it really accelerates your goldfish.  it pitches, and can also find you a wish when you need a bomb.

scroll rack: great synergy with future sight and shuffle effects, but may lose its spot now that gush is gone. thoughts anyone?

in the board...

deep analysis:  i haven't tested this yet, but it looks great for the control matchup (which can be difficult) if anyone has used this card (trix, reap or dragon players?) feel free to chime in.

vindicate:  it looks kinda janky, but i needed a catch all, and i usually only wish for it when i am able to cast it immediately.  

duress:   this is also an untested slot.  i felt i needed to be able to get a 'counterspell' in order to resolve other bombs, this fits the bill and can also be sided in against most decks.  i considered mind twist, but then you always worry about misd.  is this a wasted slot, are there any sorcery speed abeyance type spells?

noticeable omissions:

vampiric tutor:  the main reason for not running this is 1) space and 2) i don't own it.  it looks like it would be great, should this replace limdul's vault if i can get it?

fire/ice:  this is a card that i haven't tested much, but got bumped for stp and chainers in the removal slots.  if i could get chainer's in the board, i would probably run this, but i just can't figure out what to move.

mox emerald:  i would like to fit this as well, but feel the 3rd strip is better for now.

gorilla shaman:  while i just argued for more mana removal, the strips take care of problem lands, where i can always wish for vindicate for problem artifacts (which there seem less of for this deck).

island:  i would like to adopt a zherbus like manabase to counter bloodmoon, any suggestions are welcome.

[Dozer]

Burning Wish rocks my boat, too. I've been using it for a while now, and although I did not have a chance to test in in a "real" tournament, it's just great. However, I am not trying the combo-versions of Keeper - I have only one Future Sight, no green (as yet, thinking about ading Sylvan as 61st) and play 1 Psychatog instead of GrimPower.

Oh, and Inquisitor: You don't need to incorporate an Island. Just try to stay alive with pitch counters until you can go Burning Wish for Fireball and win.

Maybe more later, I need sleep.

Dozer

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

First, I wanted to update you on my most recent version. It's a lot more similar to Womprax's than my original version. The original is much more controlish, as is GI's (which I'll discuss later), this new version plays a lot more like combo. And it does Goldfish turn 4 to 6, believe it or not. I even did turn 3 kills not golfishing.

The Shining  vers. 2

    2 Tundra
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Underground Sea
    2 City of Brass
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Tolarian Academy

    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Grim Monolith
    
    1 Zuran Orb

    2 Fire/Ice

    1 Fastbond
    1 Regrowth

    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    
    1 Enlightened Tutor

    2 Future Sight
    1 Stroke of Genius
    1 Fact or Fiction
    2 Gush
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Power Artifact
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Mystical Tutor
    3 Brainstorm
    3 Burning Wish
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain

Sideboard:

1 Mind Twist
1 Upheaval*
1 Fireball
1 Balance
1 Duress
1 Vindicate
1 Golden Wish
1 Braingeyser*
1 Deep Analysis
1 Slice and Dice
1 Primitive Justice
1 Tranquility* (if anyone knows a Primitive Justice like card for Enchantments, tell me)
1 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Chainers Edict
2 Swords to Plowshares *for one of them
1 Timetwister
1 Aura Fracture*

As you see 21 cards SB. This is because I haven't already decided what to cut. Suggestions welcome. * mark what I'd cut for a tournament tomorrow.

Some Card-Choices:

MD:

Enlightened Tutor: As soon as I replaced Cunnig with Burning Wishes, I didn't need a Tutor to Wish for. And then Enlightened is a must include, so I had to make room.

Gush: With Fastbond in the deck, Gush is really great, especially when Future Sight is already on the table.

Fire/Ice: I included these over StP when those kept me from winning in one turn to often. The tap-effect will often give you enough time to go off and against Weenies and utility creatures, we all know how good they are.

No Sylvan Library: In testing I found Brainstorm to work a lot better than Sylvan. The point with it is, when Sight hits you usually win the following turn. So Sylvan is not going to help much, usually. And it doesn't help dring the combo-turn, so I replaced it with said Brainstorm.

SB:

Timetwister: This is just great. With Fastbond and all the Artifact-Mana in the deck you're often able to drop your hand really fast. Wishing for Twister than is just great. I even did that against Sligh.

Upheaval is a test-include, it will most probably be cut first. It just seems to be really good with Fastbond and Crushes decks like Parfait and Enchantress.

Fireball: Win-Option, Wishable, can be used as mass-removal.

Balance: As this really plays like a combo-deck, Balance is a disturbance more often than helpfull. Especially during the final turn (When Sight and Fastbond are both on the table you usually win that turn), Balance will often be the thing stopping you from winning right now. This can really be fatal against Sligh and similar decks.

Duress: Wishable "counter", exactly the reasons G.I. mentioned.

Vindicate: Solves target problematic permanent. Especially good because it can deal with LoA.

Golden Wish: Trade Routes was the Backup-Combo, but it wasn't really usefull in the MD. Golden Wish allows me to pitch my Power Artifact and still have a win-option without clogging up my MD. Great.

Braingeyser: Kill-Option and good carddraw in special situations. To slow for the MD (as Stroke is better), but good Wish-target.

Deep Analysis: The perfect carddraw Wish against Control. Draws to counters or creates card-advantage.

Slice and Dice: I'm testing this over Pyroclasm as I'll have to Wish for it anyways to play it turn 3. This kills almost the smae stuff put cycles. Looks good so far.

Primitive Justice: I was looking for one Sorcery that could solve multiple problematic Artefacts. And because Meltdown would kill my own Moxen, I settled on this. Great so far againt AnkhSligh.

Tranquility: As said above, I'd rather like a Primitive Justice for Enchantments, because Tranquility also kills my own Sight/Fastbond. But I want mass-enchantment removal, so for now I need Tranquility.

Chainers Edict: I feel MD Edicts to be a liability in todays Metagame, as long as you have enough Wishes. This is the one I can Wish for, so it's in.

Swords to Plowshares: More removal buys enough time against any aggro-deck and they're great against Tog, especially. I think of playing Maze of Ith instead, but that slows my Mana-development down, which is bad.

On the mana-base: I thought it was really weak, when I saw it first in Swens deck (link see above), but as strange as it sounds, nothing short of 2 Strip-effects cripples me. If more lands are destroyed it's pretty bad. I had no problems with colored mana so far (testing against Sligh), though.

Especially on G.I.'s deck:

Your decks looks a lot like my regular Keeper (I do play Grim Power there, too), with one big difference: For a pretty true control-deck (like that) I really feel Cunning Wish to be superior to Burning Wish as its targets are more versatile. Burning Wish gives you power-spells to fuel your combo while Cunning Wish gives you solutions and superior carddraw and it doesn't make you tap out during your turn.  

On your points:
1.) I'll see how much I miss the Strips against GAT, for now I'm ready to take the risk of occasionally loosing to first turn LoA without a Burning Wish->Vindicate in my hand. The green gives you enough explosiveness to compensate for an occasional loss to LoA.

2.) Problem is, for this deck to really play combo, Green is also mandatory.

The other numbered points just tell why white and red are needed, so I don't feel a need to comment.

Vampiric Tutor: You should add one as soon as you can get it, it will most probably be better than the Vault, as you usually look for a special card, not just some brokeness. I will add a Vault, if I can find room for it, though, in addition to Vamp.
What I just said is much more important for Shining than typical ComboKeeper, as you run it, as it has more single targets (Fastbond, ZOrb).

Will as a Wish-target: I don't like that. It makes Will much to high-costed to make it a really solid topdeck in the topdecking war.
All in all, also looking quite similar, your deck plays very different from Shining, so it shouldn't really be the one discussed in this thread. I'd love to talk about it (or your view on Burning Wish in controlish Keeper) in another Thread or via PM (send one, if you want my Keeper decklist or anything).


/edit:
@OMIFUK! I don't mind the people posting their own decklists, they all give new ideas.

@all others: This is not meant to Spam this thread with decklists. If your deck is only 2 cards different, just tell that difference. But for those very different decks like Womprax's and G.I.'s I really appreciate posting the whole decklist and not only changes, as it's a lot easier to get a grasp at the deck.

[Kheoinn]

Cleansing Meditation is tech.

[Dante]

Mon, for your enchantment issue

there's hull breach (only destroys 1 enchantment, but it's a sorcery), although G and R might be hard..

also (don't know if these are what you're looking for)..

calming verse - 3G
Sorcery
Destroy all enchantments you don't control. Then, if you control an untapped land, destroy all enchantments you control.

cleansing meditation - 1WW (as was suggested above)
Sorcery
Destroy all enchantments. Threshold - Instead destroy all enchantments, then return to play all cards in your graveyard destroyed this way. (You have threshold if seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)

Dante

[Aahz]

This is beginning to look a bit like a Burning Tide deck I was playing a while back. Of course, that deck didn't run green and had no Future Sight. Since you are moving away from Keeper towards combo anyway had you considered High Tide for a deck trying to utilize Future Sight?

It seems like it would work pretty well with Gush and Fastbond.  The only issue would be the Land since you would have to add additional Islands. Would it be possible to run more fetchlands (would 6 be too many?) and duals to replace the Cities?

You said that Timetwister works well, then what about Time Spiral? It works great with Burning Wish and could be more useful than twister under certain circumstances.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

@ Kheonin/Dante:
Thanks for the suggestions, I won't play cleansing meditation as WW is to hard to get early enough with this deck, although being perfekt in all the other respects.

For Calming Verse, the most decks I'll need Tranquility-like effects against will play mutiple Replenishes, so not being allowed to keep countermana open is a big minus.
For now I settled on Reverent Silence, as it will at least allow me to cast Wish and Silence during the same turn without wasting mana, giving me the opportunity to go into combo-mode the turn I kill all the enchantments by dropping sight after casting Silence. (This is mainly meant for a multiple seals/auras and stuff like that, so it could really work fine. For single enchantments, Vindicate works. hint @ WotC: Please print a multiple-target, sorcery speed enchantment removal with only a single colored requirement.  )

@Aahz:

The nice thing about this deck is, that it can play control against Keeper, other Control and true Combo about as good as Keeper does (better game one, as there are no dead StP and similar things MD). This is possible because there are no spells in it, that serve solely a pupose when your surfing through your deck with Sight + Fastbond (If you do, you'll win anyway, so why bother with other stuff). In addition I don't think any game where I resolved Future Sight took more than 3 turns after that at the worst (me being in control from the turn after dropping Sight usually). And no, no conceding involved.

I never had problems finding enough mana after Sight was resolved, so it's a waste of colored mana if you have to cast High Tides from your deck during your combo-turn. In addition they don't do anything against control and not much against other combo, and take a lot of room, especially with all those tools you need to make them useful. The only thing I could want them for is being able to drop Sight earlier, but I'd most probably use more artifact-mana (Crypt/Vault) first, as it is more usefull on it's own.
I do have a single card that's doing nothing till I want to go for the throat (Power Artifact), Tide has at least 4 (High Tides) most probably more (Turnabout).

I'd love to replace the citys with fetchland + dual anyway, but i think i sacrificed enough stability in the manabase already. It works now, but it's quite on the edge. I don't dare making it more fragile, as I'm sure it will bite me than.

Twister allows you to drop a lot of artifact mana and wish first turn, then twister on turn 2, refilling your hand. It can also save you against MonoB in the topdecking war and help you recover after you got hit with a lot of carddisadvatage (Mind Twist, Duress+ Hymn, topdeck Wish thereafter) in any way. Because of it's CC Time Spiral can't do any of that, so I won't play it. And, as said before, I'm not gonna make this a high tide deck, so no special plusses for Spiral there, too. I only wish for twister about one out of 10 or so games, multiple Twister recursion is not this decks plan. It's just a great target for the Wish to get back in the game or do some broken stuff once in a while.

[Aahz]

hmm...I see what you mean. I'll have to test this deck out.  I liked the Burning Tide deck for the same reasons you describe (ie. it can play as control or combo depending on the matchup), but I think that you may have taken this in the direction that I really wanted to go. I was too attached to the High Tide machinery I guess so I never even considered cutting it.  Props on a very interesting deck.

One other question, do you ever have issues with Tolarian Academy since you are only running 9 artifacts?

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Thanks for the props  , I'm pretty sure you'll like Shining, I'm liking it more, the more I goldfish and play it.
I never had problems with academy up to now and rarely had them when I was still playing it in Keeper (back during last summer, same artifact-count that Shining has). And I didn't even have Brainstorms to dig for Moxen back than.

Btw atm I think about dropping the MD Stroke, as it is rarely usefull and usually clogs up my hand or, even worse, the top of my deck. I'd add a Brainstorm or Burning Wish for it, relying on Wishes only for the kill. Opinions?

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I went to Dülmen with "The Shining" today and took third place. I just wanted to share the decklist and what I will change after todays experiences (report will be on www.morphling.de soon):

The Shining  vers. 2

  2 Tundra
  2 Tropical Island
  2 Volcanic Island
  2 Flooded Strand
  3 Polluted Delta
  3 Underground Sea
  2 City of Brass
  1 Library of Alexandria
  1 Tolarian Academy

  1 Mox Sapphire
  1 Mox Ruby
  1 Mox Pearl
  1 Mox Jet
  1 Mox Emerald
  1 Black Lotus
  1 Sol Ring
  1 Grim Monolith
  
  1 Zuran Orb

  1 Fastbond

  1 Vampiric Tutor
  1 Demonic Tutor
  1 Yawgmoth's Will
  
  2 Swords to Plowshares
  1 Enlightened Tutor

  2 Future Sight
  1 Fact or Fiction
  2 Gush
  1 Time Walk
  1 Ancestral Recall
  1 Power Artifact
  1 Merchant Scroll
  1 Mystical Tutor
  4 Brainstorm
  4 Burning Wish
  4 Force of Will
  4 Mana Drain

Sideboard:

1 Mind Twist
1 Kaervek's Torch
1 Balance
3 Duress
1 Vindicate
1 Deep Analysis
1 Pyroclasm
1 Primitive Justice
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Innocent Blood
1 Regrowth

Changes to previous version:

StP > F/I: F/I is better for goldfishing, but with Dryads, Togs and Naughts in the meta, StP is just plain better.

Regrowth SB: I had to find room for the 4th Brainstorm. I wanted to have something to get back discarded Yaggies, so I went with Regrowth SB.

4 Burning Wish, No Stroke MD: Burning Wish was just much more flexible and I really liked drawing it better than Stroke, so I switched them.

No Twister Sb: Never Wished for it, so it got cut, I needed room.

Innocent Blood > Chainers Edict: Blood is cheaper and non-misdirectable. And as I don't play any creatures...

More Duress, less REB: In testing I realized REB clogs up the top of your deck. In addition I mainly wanted to protect Sight from being countered or destroyed, so I wanted a few Duress to board in.

Pyroclasm: Cheaper to cast, kills Specters.

What I am going to change from that version:

I'm going to cut POWER ARTIFACT. I never needed it and it doesn't help in any way to get into the combo. When I entered combo-mode, I could draw all my deck, play all my lands, take a Time Walk and Torch my opponents out. For the time being it's gonna take up 2 SB spots (1 PA, 1 Golden Wish, not sure what aside from Regrowth will go out for that, though) as a security net, but it will mostly get cut from there, too. For this, Regrowth will get back to the MD.
If I fully cut Power Artifact, Grim Monolith will most probaly be cut, too, for Strip Mine or a faster Artifact mana source (Mana Vault)

Lim Dul's Vault will replace Elightened Tutor:
I borrowed this tech from G.I.'s Your Mother, and after today I think Enlightened is a little to narrow, I had a few situations where it was useless. lim Dul's Vault can Tutor for something good, too, and you can set up some crazy turns with Gush/Sight + Vault. And it's blue

[Fever]

I am surprised to hear you are cutting PA. Although i havent played combo Keeper myself, i assumed your main way to combo was with PA+Grim. You never had any problems getting 20 mana on the table?

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

The original gameplan consisted of surfing through my library till I've found GrimPower and then Wish for Torch to kill. I planned on even playing Golden Wish SB to have an option to get back PA when I had to pitch it early on.
To my own surprise, yesterday I boarded out Power Artifact most of the time, as I needed room (I changed the SB 2 days before Dülmen), and every time I entered the final turn I was able to go through all my deck, get Walk or Will to untap all my lands and next turn/after Will+Orb+Fastbond action I could Torch for more than 20 every time. This was the case about 5 times during the tourney (game one Power Artifact was still in the deck, turning up some way down the deck and some of my opponents just conceded when I entered the final turn). Every time I did cast Power Artifact or my opponents conceded I would in any case have had the options to go through the rest of my deck and find Walk + enough Mana.
So to speak the main combo in this deck is not GrimPower but Sight + Fastbond + Zuran Orb.

[Grand Inquisitor]

i have had similar experiences in testing.  however, i would keep grim and power in for these reasons:
1) grim monolith is great acceleration, and with PA infinite mana is good with out an X spell
2) it keeps my (bad) opponents gunning for my Grim/PA instead of my future sight
3) there are situations against aggro where, on my fatal 'last' turn, i either can't get together the f.sight/fastbond/zorb triumvirate, or i've stp'd there guys to make it difficult to fireball them for 30+.  Grim/PA simply says 'I Win' with the right cards, regardless of my available resources (mana, life, time).

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote 1) grim monolith is great acceleration, and with PA infinite mana is good with out an X spell

I would replace Grim Monolith with Mana Vault most probably. Being 1 cheaper to cast could help a lot imo. Not being able to untap it eot is bad, though, so that will have to be tested.
And yes, infinite Mana is good, but I feel drawing Regrowth will win me more games than drawing PA will ever.

Quote 2) it keeps my (bad) opponents gunning for my Grim/PA instead of my future sight

I suppose they'll learn. In addition I don't care for bad opponents much, as I'm quite sure to be able o win against them anyways.

Quote 3) there are situations against aggro where, on my fatal 'last' turn, i either can't get together the f.sight/fastbond/zorb triumvirate, or i've stp'd there guys to make it difficult to fireball them for 30+.  Grim/PA simply says 'I Win' with the right cards, regardless of my available resources (mana, life, time).

I never had a situation in testing or tourney where I could get GrimPower together but not Sight+Bond+ZOrb. It might happen sometimes, but I'm quite sure not to often.
The StP problem did happen to me against GroMask in testing (2 StPed Dreads) when I had sided out PowerArtifact to get room. I was able to Burning Wish->Golden Wish->Power Artifact though, and this is exactly why I chose to keep the safety net in the SB for now. Being able to do this is usually enough.

[Andreas]

How does your current version match up against GAT pre and post sideboard?

[Grand Inquisitor]

I've played 4-5 matches with Your Mother against GAT, so I'll chime in:

Game 1 is more difficult since you are trying to kill with a misdirectable spell and you don't have REB's.  Game's 2 & 3 are much better as you can play keeper-esque, but with more acceleration (and very few misdirectable spells).  Overall my game record vs. GAT is about 6-3 (w/ & w/o SB).

I think 'keeper' with burning wish has more weapons (duress, deep analysis, vindicate, recurring chainer's edict) than Paragon.  The most obvious hole being the lack of abyss.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

IMO GAT is a toss up, they take about 50% of the matches, a little less if they don't have red (your SB is better then). If have not tested to extensively, though, as I'm missing a good GAT player around here, my original playtest-people (Benjamin Rott & Co) still life in Oldenburg and the people here just don't play GAT. Dammit.

[Zherbus]

Quote The nice thing about this deck is, that it can play control against Keeper, other Control and true Combo about as good as Keeper does (better game one, as there are no dead StP and similar things MD). This is possible because there are no spells in it, that serve solely a pupose when your surfing through your deck with Sight + Fastbond (If you do, you'll win anyway, so why bother with other stuff). In addition I don't think any game where I resolved Future Sight took more than 3 turns after that at the worst (me being in control from the turn after dropping Sight usually). And no, no conceding involved.

Since Ophidian apparently hasn't been printed in Germany, I think that is one area you neglect to take into consideration. That is fine of course, since we are all just trying to win in our respective metagames. With little (non-Burning Wish) spot removal, I suspect a rough game against Ophidian, aggro-control decks, and possibly Mask (another absense from Germany).

*SCREECHING HALT*

Noticing that you are going with Power Artifact, all that is needed to bring it a step closer to Paragon Keeper is Cunning Wishes over Burning Wishes.

Another thought I wanted to share was Duress vs. REB. I understand this may be entirely metagame dependant here, but Duress doesn't kill a Tog and Burning Wish doesn't fetch anything that is efficient to kill it. With only the 2 maindeck Swords, are you having problems with Tog? If so, are you going this particular direction because the Tog just isn't as much of a presense?

[Fever]

I would think a sideboarded Innocent Blood would be the answer for Tog. With 4 Burning Wish in the deck you have a good chance of finding one and the combined mana cost of B. Wish + Blood is only 1RB. It is also Misdirection-proof, which is always nice in the GAT matchup. Grand Inquisitor is running his Balance sb, which serves much the same purpose, but i would go with Balance main and sb Blood to Wish for.

[Zherbus]

BR1 at sorcery speed is really going to be rough against Tog. It's for the same reason we don't use Vindicate. By the way, STP is Misdirection proof against Gat, as you generally have nothing to redirect it to.

I'm not saying theres no way to beat certain decks, I am merely asking how.

[Fever]

I understand that, but if 1BR is tough to pull off, how is 2UW any easier? Also, one of the main reasons we dont use Vidicate(aside from its cc) is that its just begging for MisD. And since i am nitpicking, the GAT player can always play a Dryad along with his Tog to act as StP fodder. I realize that it is not the strongest play, but its one that has come up.