Breaking Future Sight

[Grand Inquisitor]

carsten, talk to me about AK with one intuition, what sparked this innovation?  from the results, it seems quite strong, but which matches does it help/hurt exactly?

also, after playing in tournaments with tendrils of agony, i feel that it increases the opportunity to go off, but reduces the margin for play error (since now, you MUST go off in one big turn).

i see that white has been completely relegated to the sideboard, is it time to re-evaulate what white brings to the deck, or are balance, CoP, Aura Fracture still worth it?

is your current version any better against what i see as problem matchups: ankh sligh (tendrils is great here), Urphid, and EBA (haven't seen this played in Europe, but in the NE US there are a few)?

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote carsten, talk to me about AK with one intuition, what sparked this innovation?  from the results, it seems quite strong, but which matches does it help/hurt exactly?

As you might have realized I played SuperGro with Acc. Knowledges in addition to 4 Gushes the Dülmen before. That deck made me really like the Knowledges, even without Intuitions. The amount of other carddraw gives them to you. Because of that I thought about adding them, feeling a little at a loss about what to replace the Trade Routes with (which felt really dead with the Tendrils-kill), but as I wanted to keep away from Knowledge-crazyness in Hulk-matchups, I dismissed it.
A german testing-partner from the beginning had the same idea, though, and thinking "two brains, one idea, must be good" I just tested the knowledges.
That gave me the option to finally remove FoF from the deck (it's CC of 4 make it a real staller on the Sight and it's quite slow anyways), as Intuition >>FoF if you play Knowledges.
The higher count of cantrips allowed me to cut another land, which I really liked. Just for reference, I felt flooded a lot more often than screwed. I won't cut more lands just because I had problems (= had to play REALLY sharp) finding enough lands to keep going of with Sight + Fastbond.

For the others: The decklist is on morphling.de, what I actually changed from last listing is this:
MD:
- 1 Trade Routes
- 2 Innocent Blood
- 1 Yawgmoth's Will
- 1 FoF
- 1 Tropical Island

+ 4 Accumulated Knowledge
+ 1 Intuition
+ 1 Diabolic Edict
 
current SB:

1 CotH
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Aura Fracture
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Primitive Justice
1 Vindicate/Reverent Silence
1 Innocent Blood
1 C.o.P.: Red
2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Deep Analysis

G.I. was actually right, as I've come to realize after moving Will to the SB for space-reasons, Being able to Wish for Will is great. You just have to look out for it to not be countered, as you won't get i t back from GY.

Quote also, after playing in tournaments with tendrils of agony, i feel that it increases the opportunity to go off, but reduces the margin for play error (since now, you MUST go off in one big turn).

I think Tendrils is the absolute broken finisher from hell and I had no problems whatsoever killing with it, I won a lot of games just of Wish-Will, Wish->Tendrils. I see the problem, though, and had thought about it myself, which is why CotH was back in my SB (two 3/3s should be able to win the game in control-mode usually).

Quote i see that white has been completely relegated to the sideboard, is it time to re-evaulate what white brings to the deck, or are balance, CoP, Aura Fracture still worth it?

For now I see no problem with the manabase and those white cards can win games on their own (well, aside from Fracture, and you just need Fracture for UrPhid). So I'd say it is worth it.

Quote is your current version any better against what i see as problem matchups: ankh sligh (tendrils is great here), Urphid, and EBA (haven't seen this played in Europe, but in the NE US there are a few)?

First, I won't call AnkhSligh and UrPhid a problem in the same way. UrPhid is evil, AnkhSLigh is about a 50% matchup for me.

For the changes in the matchups:

Keeper: You're now on the winning side, I guess, as you now play even more draw-spells and less dead cards. But be aware, you're edge is just that Slim, don't get cocky.
UrPhid: Better than before, as you can now finally outdraw them seriously (or at least you have as much carddraw/quality as they have counterspells). Still the worst matchup, but better than before.
AnkhSligh: I didn't feel much of a change, as said before I feel like old-school Keeper vs Old School Sligh, you outplay them, you win. SB CoP does a lot, too.
EBA: Nobody plays it here, so I haven't tested this at all, nobody to test against. The matchup will be pretty hard, I guess, as Meddling Mage is a bitch and Ophi's aren't nice either. Combine this with the best Disruption there is today (4 FoW and 4 Duress) and I suppose this will be hard. Correct play will probably bring this to 50%, though, as my experience against SuperGro (yes, the one I played, too) shows that Meddling Mage can be got around by skill most of the time. (like knowing Burning Wish->Balance should be one of the first things to do, so they can't ban the Wishes).

[leviat]

I just wanted to ask a few questions about some of your card choices.

Quote 1 Diabolic Edict

What motivated playing this over a Swords to Plowshares? I think that the StoP would be superior in that it can remove the problem creature without worry of the Edict simply killing a trivial problem. (Edit: After thinking about it, I guess you can't play a StoP off a Futuresight when there's no creature in play, so I guess that's an important reason to stick with an edict)

Quote 1 Primitive Justice

How often did you destroy multiple artifacts with it? How would Rack and Ruin done in it's place? (Edit: Oops, Rack and Ruin is an instant, Silly Me)

Quote 1 Innocent Blood

When did you use this? Would a Chainer's' Edict have been more useful?

Quote 1 Deep Analysis

I'm very curious about this card. My immediately impression was that a Timetwister in it's place would be a lot better. Deep Analysis just seems to cost too much for it to be useful.

Quote also, after playing in tournaments with tendrils of agony, i feel that it increases the opportunity to go off, but reduces the margin for play error (since now, you MUST go off in one big turn).

How often did you find yourself finish with Tendril's over CotH? I find myself often getting into trouble in hopes of reaching the 10 needed spells and wishing I had just gone with Elephants and keeping control.

[Dante]

Quote (leviat @ July 17 2003,11:02)

Quote 1 Primitive Justice

How often did you destroy multiple artifacts with it? How would Rack and Ruin done in it's place?

Burning Wish can fetch Primitive Justice (sorcery) but not Rack and Ruin (instant)

Dante

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote
Quote
1 Innocent Blood

When did you use this? Would a Chainer's' Edict have been more useful?

It being cheaper is really usefull (read 3 mana Edict >> 4 mana Edict vs 2nd turn Dreadnought, Hyppie, etc.). And the Flashback seldomly becomes a factor, as a) Keeper doesn't usually drop more than one Morphling before you've already lost and b) The Shining usually goes of before it has 7 Mana to spare or dies against regular aggro, where a) may not apply.

Quote
Quote
1 Deep Analysis

I'm very curious about this card. My immediately impression was that a Timetwister in it's place would be a lot better. Deep Analysis just seems to cost too much for it to be useful.

First: Show me some better Burning Wishable carddraw.
Second: This really shines against Control, as every Wish they let resolve can go at least 2 for 1. This card is amazing vs. control and the best of all the bad options for Wishable carddraw against combo. Against aggro it sucks, but you want to wish for Balance and Will (+ maybe Primitive Justice) there, anyway, not for basic carddraw.

Quote
Quote
also, after playing in tournaments with tendrils of agony, i feel that it increases the opportunity to go off, but reduces the margin for play error (since now, you MUST go off in one big turn).

How often did you find yourself finish with Tendril's over CotH? I find myself often getting into trouble in hopes of reaching the 10 needed spells and wishing I had just gone with Elephants and keeping control.

I finished all the games with Tendrils besides one in round 1 against a mana-screwed newbie-deck, where I didn't want to waste time and concentration to set up a combo-kill-turn (I was REALLY hung over that morning). I haven't needed CotH once in all my (limited due to exams) testing so far (but RolandB killed with it once, AFAIK, against Sligh because Ankh forbade going of any further) and it's on the list behind Vindicate to be cut if I need SB room.

[Thug]

Congrats on your performance, the changes are interesting.

Quote For the others: The decklist is on morphling.de, what I actually changed from last listing is this:
MD:
- 1 Trade Routes
- 2 Innocent Blood
- 1 Yawgmoth's Will
- 1 FoF
- 1 Tropical Island

+ 4 Accumulated Knowledge
+ 1 Intuition
+ 1 Diabolic Edict

Trade Routes: Yippie, it did go!    I totally agree, since Tendrils kills fine without it

Innocent Blood: Im also wondering why you decided to remove these two and add a single Diabolic Edict. With a wishable edict, wouldn't a Swords maindeck be better. Is it just because your like 1B more than W? The point that it's harder to get rid of with a Sight in play is not that relevant, since it almost doesnt affect your changes of going off. It only would really hurt when it shows up in the top 3 cards, but there's still brainstorm, fetchlands etc.

Fact or Fiction: You got an argument here, the card never really fitted in, but you do need that card drawer. Intuition + Ak's provide the additional drawers.

Yawgmoth's Will: I always liked it in the Maindeck, and I don't see why going with Intuition + Ak's would change this, so I don't really understand this yet. I still rather Mystical for my Will and keep the wishes for more drastic answers. If you can't find room you could always go with 61 cards.

Tropical Island: Seems the most logical land to cut, also because Fastbond isn't 100% needed anymore. With more cantrips cutting a land can be justified, at least in theory  

With the inclusion of the Knowledges couldn't the second Merchant Scroll be justified?, maybe it could replace the Gush...

I'm going to test your version and see how it plays right away

Koen

[MoreFling]

The edict is better because it targets a player, not a creature, thus when going off, it doesn't obstruct you.

[Thug]

Quote The edict is better because it targets a player, not a creature, thus when going off, it doesn't obstruct you.

That has been mentioned a number of times before, and I still think that something you can live with. StP does also have a lot of advantages over an Edict. And if your feeling confident at getting W early on I think Swords defnitly has the upper hand.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote Innocent Blood: Im also wondering why you decided to remove these two and add a single Diabolic Edict. With a wishable edict, wouldn't a Swords maindeck be better. Is it just because your like 1B more than W? The point that it's harder to get rid of with a Sight in play is not that relevant, since it almost doesnt affect your changes of going off. It only would really hurt when it shows up in the top 3 cards, but there's still brainstorm, fetchlands etc.

I felt the StP hurting sometimes and with the new combo-heavy environment (making it more important to go off fast enough) Edict is the right card to use, I think. For it being there, I didn't want to play without any creature-removal MD (Meddling Mage traumatization from testing against SuperGro)
PS: Stop arguing about that you all, it's more metagame- and playstyle-dependant than anything. And that discussions runs through the whole Thread already . I think any Instant is fine there (StP, F/I and Edict), I won't go with a Sorcery any more, as you can get those from SB.

Quote Fact or Fiction: You got an argument here, the card never really fitted in, but you do need that card drawer. Intuition + Ak's provide the additional drawers.

As a sidenote: I didn't use Intution for fishing Knowledges about half the time, but to set up broken Will-turns. Burning Wish->Will is

Quote
Yawgmoth's Will: I always liked it in the Maindeck, and I don't see why going with Intuition + Ak's would change this, so I don't really understand this yet. I still rather Mystical for my Will and keep the wishes for more drastic answers. If you can't find room you could always go with 61 cards.

Well I needed room and I'm definitly not ready to go over 60 cards. Besides that, you know I said exactly the same things about SBing Will before playing this version. Just play 20 games with The Win in the Side (to get used to it) and you'll really like it. It's like playing with 3+ Wills again....

Quote
Tropical Island: Seems the most logical land to cut, also because Fastbond isn't 100% needed anymore. With more cantrips cutting a land can be justified, at least in theory  

As said, I rather felt flooded than screwed the whole day. And Fastbond is still a house, as you need the additional lands to go off turn 3-4 with Wish->Will alone usually (yes it works...)

Quote
With the inclusion of the Knowledges couldn't the second Merchant Scroll be justified?, maybe it could replace the Gush...

I will definitly not replace Gush, I'd often missed the second one (you just need it to untap mana surprisingly often, I didn't realize how often before cutting the second one). In addition I sometimes had problems using the first Scroll to true success, as my good targets where gone already.

Oh, as a Sidenote,

[Dozer]

Quote (Mon @ Goblin Chief,July 21 2003,08:05)

Quote Innocent Blood: Im also wondering why you decided to remove these two and add a single Diabolic Edict. With a wishable edict, wouldn't a Swords maindeck be better. Is it just because your like 1B more than W? The point that it's harder to get rid of with a Sight in play is not that relevant, since it almost doesnt affect your changes of going off. It only would really hurt when it shows up in the top 3 cards, but there's still brainstorm, fetchlands etc.

I felt the StP hurting sometimes and with the new combo-heavy environment (making it more important to go off fast enough) Edict is the right card to use, I think. For it being there, I didn't want to play without any creature-removal MD (Meddling Mage traumatization from testing against SuperGro)
PS: Stop arguing about that you all, it's more metagame- and playstyle-dependant than anything. And that discussions runs through the whole Thread already . I think any Instant is fine there (StP, F/I and Edict), I won't go with a Sorcery any more, as you can get those from SB.

Well, I for one felt Shining to be too removal-light, and so I chose to play Powder Keg in the Edict-Slot. When I need to remova a creature, Edict almost never hits the creature I want to remove. Especially Mask and Stax usually have more creatures out besides the 'Naught or Welder, and I wanted to be able to reliably get what I wanted to get dead. Powder Keg, even though no Instant, costs the same and works more to the point, even though it's slower.

/edit: I have played and tested the Keg, and I don't really like it. It is good against Dreadnoughts and Sligh, but not much else. I have replaced it with The Abyss, dropping back to old-school Keeper-tech, and I'm very happy with it. It does not help much against Stax and Dreadnoughts, but it kills everything else Vengeur is likely to come up with and works beautiful against Welders and lonely Psychatogs. Abyss has not lost its charme since it got kicked from Keeper for being to slow against GAT, but now that GAT is out, Abyss is back for now - at least for me. /edit

Also, since I always missed those Swords badly in a variety of match-ups, I ended up sticking two SB. For those who are interested, here is my latest Shining-SB (post-TOC):

-- Sideboard (15)

1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Aura Fracture
2 Swords to Plowshares

1 Timetwister
2 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Deep Analysis
1 Balance
1 Pyroclasm
1 Primitive Justice
1 Reverent Silence

I had a Merchant Scroll and an Innocent Blood in the Sword-places, but I rarely wished for either one. The rest of the SB is pretty self-explanatory and very similar to Mon's, with the exception of the 2 Swords in place of 2 Pyroblasts and the Timetwister as emergency drawer in place of the CotH.
I had a Psychatog in the SB, but had to I cut it due to space reasons. Boarding him in made Timetwister that much bettter, but I keep it as a broken drawer nonetheless. Against opponents without counterspells, Twistering mid-combo is just plain fun.

Dozer

[erik]

I echo the sentiments about Edict, not being able to kill what you want is a lot worse than having one more un-castable card in Sight mode IMO. This deck has so much draw and tutors that you should be able to manuever yourself into a winning position if you only get a couple of turns to lay mana and prepare for a big turn. Up until then it's all about tempo, and having the removal card cost two mana instead of one plus the risk of it not doing the job anyway is just too big a tempo-loss. In my opinion Plow>Innocent blood>Fire/Ice>Edict, with the biggest argument against Plow being its color.

Other than that I think the deck is a piece of art. Fluent, focused and still flexible thanks to the Wishes. It feels a lot like Hulk, but without a kill condition that suffers from summoning sickness

[Thug]

I have been testing some more lately, and something very funny happend.

I started testing Hulk, to get to know more about how to play it, but mainly how to play against it. It got me a lot of information, but I also alsmost fell in love with the concept. So with the Hulk engine in mind I recreated my latest shining build. And came up with a very-hulk like build, dropping green altogether. I performed well, and showed me what Accumulated Knowledge's but mainly Intuitiuon does to this deck. Intuition really is the tutor it is in Reaplace in this deck, it can fetch you Knowledges for card advantage, or drop very good stuff in your 'yard to abuse with Will. After this I decided to bring back Fastbond and Zuran Orb, since fastbond really speeds up the deck. Gush made another apperance too.

This is my last version:

Mana: (25)

1 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island

7 Solomox

Disruption/Denial/Destruction: (11)

2 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Swords/Keg/Abyss

Tutoring: (14)

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Intuition
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm

Draw: (7)

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Gush
1 Future Sight (sort of)

Others: (3)

1 Fastbond
1 Zuran Orb
1 Time Walk

Sideboard:

2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Coffin Purge
1 Aura Fracture
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Innocent Blood
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils
1 Deep Analysis
1 Balance
1 Primitive Justice

1 Regrowth/Cop Red/Vindicate/...


It really plays very smooth and can combo out very quick. Often you start around 4th turn with a Will, wish it back and do it a lot better in a timewalk turn and kill that turn.

The maindeck removal spot is the hardest one the decide, Dozer does have a valid point about Abyss, and it was pretty good in testing, but sometimes it's just too slow. Fire/Ice might be an option too, but right now I'm leaning towards keg, since it also can kill your own moxen making both Will and Tendrils a lot better. It also can easy be casted.

I'm down to 1 Future Sight, since I found it a little slow and with the addition of the Intuitions I never found real need for them. But still one is a house, I just don't see the need for the second one anymore. Things are speeding up...

Coffin Purge was added to the sideboard to deal with Rector decks. Without these it's an uphill battle in my experience.

Also I decided to leave 2 REB's in the sideboard, because with the rise of Hulk and maybe The Shining itself these start looking a lot better again.

Discuss,

Koen

[erik]

I tested your changes yesterday Thug, and I definately agree with the 2nd Intuiton. It serves a lot of functions in this deck, and takes weight off your other tutors. I'm still out on whether the 2nd Sight is the card to cut though...it IS slow, but OTOH I have yet to lose a duel with Sight on the table. More testing will tell if it's needed I suppose. One thing I don't agree with is 2nd Tundra over COB...even with swords MD you basically never need white. City is much better in this deck than normal keeper because the game doesn't go on as long, and I've even thought about going up to three cities.

Finally, Pyros are better than REB's imo, since they can be cast off a Future Sight. How do you SB against Hulk?

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote I'm still out on whether the 2nd Sight is the card to cut though...it IS slow, but OTOH I have yet to lose a duel with Sight on the table

ditto.  future sight is the biggest momentum shift in magic.  combo runs off momentum (as opposed to combo pieces), and the only games i've lost with a future sight on the board is to other combo that went off the following turn.  everything else just straight can't handle the card advantage.

Quote 2 Intuition

intuition is usually the first card i side out, actually.  there's enough draw in the deck, so i don't even have to get AK, it usually just sets up yawgwill.  and lets face it, if you're more worried about setting up yawgwill than resolving it, then you're in pretty good shape anyway.  there are way too many one-of's to really take advantage of this in my opinion.

Quote Mana: (25)

1 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island

7 Solomox

my mana base is different by:
-1 tolarian academy
-1 fetch
+1 strip mine
+1 island

as soon as tendrils became the focus, i dropped trade routes, and then tolarian academy.  so far i haven't missed the acceleration provided by academy.  it wasn't that it was inconsistent, it worked fine.  however, it still dies to wasteland and is useless under a bloodmoon.  the lone island has been great.

the lone strip is simply because loa and bazaar of baghdad exist.  there's a reason why its restricted.

regarding the removal spot, swords to plowshares is still the best in the business.  yes, it doesn't cycle on top of FS, but now there's only 1 removal spot, i'd rather take the one in sixty statistical gamble, than have to put up with the sluggishness of keg or the possibly irrelevance of diabolic edict.  swords also nabs an unsuspecting rector.

i also have 1x duress/1x mind twist instead of 2x duress in the main, since mind twist has been great against everything aggro and combo.  it often gets swapped out for duress against control, but it is still a bomb when you're staring down rector-trix, as they wait to go off.

i like deep analysis, i think call of the herd is unnecessary, and i'm starting to question primitive justice.  in theory it sounds like what i'd want, but vindicate usually does the trick well enough, and i rarely get two with the justice.

yes, i have flashed back chainer's edict, so i'll pay the extra one colorless.  however, i've been considering making room for abyss in the board, i'm not sure if it'll be for chainer's or the stp.

i know this deck has been evolved largely by the europeans, and the europeans have less of a hulk problem than we do (ironically the opposite situation of GAT), but has anyone done serious testing with this matchup?

[Thug]

Quote I'm still out on whether the 2nd Sight is the card to cut though...it IS slow, but OTOH I have yet to lose a duel with Sight on the table. More testing will tell if it's needed I suppose.

Quote ditto.  future sight is the biggest momentum shift in magic.  combo runs off momentum (as opposed to combo pieces), and the only games i've lost with a future sight on the board is to other combo that went off the following turn.  everything else just straight can't handle the card advantage.

I don't really think running both 2 intuitions and 2 future sights is a good idea. Against non-control decks you shouldn't need Future Sight if you have intuition, since intuition either sets up perfectly for Yawgmoth's Will or gets you AK #3. The only matchups I could see the second Future Sight being needed is control, but do we see control. Hulk is probably too fast for Future Sight and I haven't seen any other control around.

Quote intuition is usually the first card i side out, actually.  there's enough draw in the deck, so i don't even have to get AK, it usually just sets up yawgwill.  and lets face it, if you're more worried about setting up yawgwill than resolving it, then you're in pretty good shape anyway.  there are way too many one-of's to really take advantage of this in my opinion.

I don't feel like there's enough draw. Playing with Intuition just speeds thing up a lot. Maybe you will be drawing a lot of cards over lots of turns, but Intuition sets up AK #3, which almost always gets you a card to grab AK 4# with. Resulting in massive card advantage. Also, as said, it setp up your Will very good and with 4 Wishes your very likely to have acces to Will.

I agree that there are no real other option's than AK's or Will setup, but should they be needed?. And you can always grab 3 lands, or 3 counters if needed. Also after sideboarding Coffin Purge becomes a great target.

Quote One thing I don't agree with is 2nd Tundra over COB...even with swords MD you basically never need white. City is much better in this deck than normal keeper because the game doesn't go on as long, and I've even thought about going up to three cities.

Is you look back in this thread you will see that I was always running 3 cities, they have been fine to me. But right now the deck (my version) in very blue based, therefore I only left 1 City of Brass in. You could argue that I use the second Tundra over, lest say, an island, but I like to have a second Tundra to fetch if the first one has been destroyed/discarded.

Quote Finally, Pyros are better than REB's imo, since they can be cast off a Future Sight. How do you SB against Hulk?

This is a very close call. It is true that Pyro's can be ditched off future sight. Both can be cast of one    

But the question is, will this ever be useful, if you siding in Pyro, you will want to see them. Let's say againt Hulk I rather just keep it on top to counter a spell, or draw it the turn after and just keep it in my hand.

REB can't be misdirected to your Sight if you counter a spell with it, while this is a very small advantage it can be compared to the advantage Pyro has. So I think it's a very close call.

Quote my mana base is different by:
-1 tolarian academy
-1 fetch
+1 strip mine
+1 island

I would also like to fit in the basic island, but don't see a way yet. And I rather run the Academy than a basic, since it's just great to me. With 8 easy castable artifacts it will always produce one mana, and often more.

I don't really see the need for Strip Mine. You should outrace Bazaar. LoA can be a problem, but aside from a topdecked Strip Mine you not going to do much against it. If they are smart and have an active LoA they will counter Vampiric/Demonic. And LoA can in my opinion easier be deactivated by forcing the player to respond to your spells.

Quote i also have 1x duress/1x mind twist instead of 2x duress in the main, since mind twist has been great against everything aggro and combo.  it often gets swapped out for duress against control, but it is still a bomb when you're staring down rector-trix, as they wait to go off.

This is definitly an option, and it the right metagame could be the best choice. Against RectorTrix Mind Twist can be huge, but it not as fast as duress is, you wont be nabbing his best spell on the first turn.

Quote i like deep analysis, i think call of the herd is unnecessary, and i'm starting to question primitive justice.  in theory it sounds like what i'd want, but vindicate usually does the trick well enough, and i rarely get two with the justice.

I like Deep Analysis a lot too, and I'm looking for a way to play 2 (maindeck or sideboard). Maybe 1 Maindeck and 1 sideboard. Just because of the interaction with intuition and the protection against discard.

I also think Call is unnessecairy. But I'm not questioning Justice. I have actually cutted Vindicate since I didn't do enough. Justice is easy to cast and has actually often nailed more than one artifact for me.

Quote i know this deck has been evolved largely by the europeans, and the europeans have less of a hulk problem than we do (ironically the opposite situation of GAT), but has anyone done serious testing with this matchup?

I have and it's very even, probably slighty in The Shining's disadvantage. After sideboarding you will see some very complex games. I'm interested in your own test results

I'm not totally sure about my sideboarding against Hulk, but right now I was doing something like:

-1 Mystical Tutor
-1 Gush
-1 Zuran Orb (not sure about this though)

+1 Swords
+2 REB

I might have fitted the third duress in as well, not sure.

What do you guys think of Coffin Purge by the way?
And do we need other sideboard cards against Stax (I think so)? Maybe Sacred Ground? Energy Flux? Seal of Cleasing?

Koen

[Dante]

Quote (Thug @ July 31 2003,12:47)

I'm still out on whether the 2nd Sight is the card to REB can't be misdirected to your Sight if you counter a spell with it, while this is a very small advantage it can be compared to the advantage Pyro has. So I think it's a very close call.

Just a rules note, Pyroblast is modal just like REB, so if you choose on announcement that you are countering a spell not targeting a permanent, it cannot be misdirected to a Future Sight already on the table.

Dante

[Dozer]

Quote (Thug @ July 31 2003,10:47)What do you guys think of Coffin Purge by the way?
And do we need other sideboard cards against Stax (I think so)? Maybe Sacred Ground? Energy Flux? Seal of Cleasing?

Coffin Purge is great when you have the second Intution. If not, I think I'd prefer something wishable, although it is way slower - card of choice is Decompose, but a second Intuition is very intriguing. I'll test that. Coffin Purge is the better option to side in.

SB against Stax: Most definitely. I have not tested this thorougly, but after some sample games I'd agree. I don't know what, though. Energy Flux seems like a good choice, but Sacred Ground deals with way better with Smokestack. Since they cannot use Workshop to pay for Flux, I'd use that, though.

Also, I am currently tinkering with the Maindeck as well. I have removed the 4th AK for a MD Fire/Ice as a measure against Meddling Mage, and I have added a 61st card - a MD Tendrils. I honestly don't know if that was a good idea, but in my testing I found that MD Tendrils is just a great relief because it catches quite some people by surprise. Also, you can use your Wishes more freely, and you can tutor up a Tendrils with way more ease. The enourmous reliance on Burning Wish had bothered me from the start, so I thought the easiest way to fix it is a MD Tendrils. So far, it appears to be more of a win-more card, so I'm most likely taking it out again.

A second Intuition is a great idea, though. Future Sight is not always necessary to win. Wish for Will usually suffices, especially with Fastbond to retrieve the used Fetchies.

Big Question @ all: What do you use for enchantment destruction? Primitive Justice is good against Artifacts, but enchantments are giving me a rough time, especially Survival and the ubiquitous Blood Moon.

Dozer

[Thug]

Quote Coffin Purge is great when you have the second Intution. If not, I think I'd prefer something wishable, although it is way slower - card of choice is Decompose, but a second Intuition is very intriguing. I'll test that. Coffin Purge is the better option to side in.

I tested it a little and siding in two Purges to intuition for is really strong against RectorTrix. If you pull it of and you leave a black open, you just won yourself the game. Since you should be able to keep them from hardasting the combo.

Quote SB against Stax: Most definitely. I have not tested this thorougly, but after some sample games I'd agree. I don't know what, though. Energy Flux seems like a good choice, but Sacred Ground deals with way better with Smokestack. Since they cannot use Workshop to pay for Flux, I'd use that, though.

In leaning towards Sacred Ground, but haven't tested it yet. In theory it's easier castable and nullifies their main threat. If they can't use Smokestack you can slowly build on your mana base and start to control the game. Energu Flux is also very good but it's harder to cast and can be destroyed/countered by REB.

Quote Also, I am currently tinkering with the Maindeck as well. I have removed the 4th AK for a MD Fire/Ice as a measure against Meddling Mage, and I have added a 61st card - a MD Tendrils. I honestly don't know if that was a good idea, but in my testing I found that MD Tendrils is just a great relief because it catches quite some people by surprise. Also, you can use your Wishes more freely, and you can tutor up a Tendrils with way more ease. The enourmous reliance on Burning Wish had bothered me from the start, so I thought the easiest way to fix it is a MD Tendrils. So far, it appears to be more of a win-more card, so I'm most likely taking it out again.

Yeah in testing I also found Mage to be very annoying, a Mage at Burning Wish is soo bad. Fire/Ice stays a good card, but it's hard to make room for. I people actually start playing Mage I could defenilty see Fire/Ice moving into the maindeck.
Maindeck Tendrils is cute, but most likely just a win-more card taking valuable space.

Quote A second Intuition is a great idea, though. Future Sight is not always necessary to win. Wish for Will usually suffices, especially with Fastbond to retrieve the used Fetchies.

I defenitly think a second intuition is better than a second future sight. If you can drop fastbond, and even better Zuran Orb as well, Will will win you the game without the need for the Sight.

Quote Big Question @ all: What do you use for enchantment destruction? Primitive Justice is good against Artifacts, but enchantments are giving me a rough time, especially Survival and the ubiquitous Blood Moon.

What decks with survival are giving you problems? TNT? VM? I haven't tested the VM matchup, but it could be a problem, if you have tested it, I would like to hear some more about it. I found that you should be able to outrace TNT, and stop worrying about their survival.

Koen

[Dozer]

I have not tested against TnT so far, but I have had a lot of sessions against Womprax with his unpowered Masque, and he beat me almost every time. The problem is that VM has so many must counters that it is hard to get them all. Mask, Survival, and Shapeshifter are all bad news, and they are cheap enough that VM can play multiples in one turn. You just can't counter them all. Once Survival is in play, VM has a nearly endless stream of Dreadnoughts and Shapeshifters which is hard to stop. Also, Womprax uses 4 Meddling Mage and 3 Arcane Lab post-SB, meanig I had to side in both creature and enchantment removal (Aura Fracture).
The inclusion of Abyss has helped this, as has the inclusion of Fire/Ice. Both kill Meddling Mage and the supporting creatures like Birds, Rangers, and Wretchs, and Abyss also deals with Shapeshifter as long as it is no Dreadnought (which is pretty seldom if Survival is in play).
Still, post-SB I have to deal with 4 Masks, 4 Survivals, and 3 Arcane Labs - and I have only 1 Aura Fracture, and he could also board in Naturalizes or Natuko Vigilante.

So, the Matchup is hard, but I don't know how to improve it apart from siding in 2 Disenchants, but my SB is crammed as is, and there is no room for that. And there is just no good wishable enchantment removal - Reverent Silence does not cut it, especially with only 1 Future Sight, and Cleansing Meditation does not help against Blood Moon. Apart from a second Aura Fracture, it is still the best option available, though.

Dozer

[Thug]

Hi there,

Here's an up to date decklist:

Mana: (25)

2 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island

7 Solomox

Disruption/Denial/Destruction: (13)

2 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Swords
1 Mind Twist

Tutoring: (13)

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Intuition
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm

Draw: (7)

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Deep Analysis
1 Future Sight (sort of)

Others: (3)

1 Fastbond
1 Zuran Orb
1 Time Walk

Sideboard:

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Coffin Purge
1 Aura Fracture

1 Duress
1 Innocent Blood
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils
1 Deep Analysis
1 Balance
1 Primitive Justice

2 slots to battle Stax/MUD, haven't made my mind up yet.


Here are the explanations:

Second City over the third volcanic, by playing with swords again and adding Mind Twist I felt more need for non.blue coloured mana, and a Volcanic seemed most logical to cut for a City. Been good so far.

2 Swords, they are still great in some matchups, but seeing that my decklist is 61 cards and you should be able to win without the second one, I might cut one.

Mind Twist maindeck, thanks Dozer, I tested it and liked it alot. When wishing for Twist you lose the surprise because you often will be casting it the turn after. Wonderful so far.

Deep Analysis main, the key to this decklist, makes Intuition even better. Against control you can now both set up broken will (Fastbond + Zuran Orb) and create card advantage (Deep Analysis). And with the second copy in the board, you can also play with 2 after sideboarding. This let's you play like Hulk, intuitioning for 2 Analysisses is just great.


Here are my results fromn testing with this version:

Hulk:

Pre-SB they got a slight advantage over you. It's not big, but I believe it's there. After sideboarding you will see amazing games. Both decks will be packing Duresses, REB's, Drain, FoW's, Intuitions, AK's and Analysisses. I believe the Shining has a little edge over Hulk after sideboarding.

My current sideboard strategy:

- 1 Zuran Orb (too much dead weight)
- 2 Swords (REB's are far better and also can kill Togs, these will just mock up in your hand)
- 1 Vampiric (You don't want the card disadvatage, against a deck with soo much counters after sideboarding)

+ 1 Deep Analysis (You won't be intuitioning for AK, because that would be in their advantage, but 2 Deep Analysis make all up for it.
+ 3 REB/Pyroblast


Rector Trix:

Before sideboard you will have a hard time, there are no real bombs to wish for and they can combo out very quickly. I thinks is something like 60-40 for them before SB. After it does certainly get better. Another Matchup that seems to be sleightly in the favour of The Shining after sideboarding.
Purge really makes a difference

Sideboard:

- 1 Future Sight (too slow)
- 1 Wish (too few targets, will and tendrils will be all you need)
- 2 Swords (they might side gators, but a nice timed wish should take care of that, it you can't counter them)

+ 2 Coffin Purge
+ 1 Fracture
+ 1 Duress


VM:

Pretty tough matchup, 12/12 tramplers backup up be duresses and fow's aren't funny. You can try to control the game and make sure no Surivival hits and deal with all other threats. Or you can go for the kill as soon as possible. Since Shapeshiter + Nought takes time to set up, you should be able to make it. The main thing to fear IMO are very quick masks + noughts. They will put you on a very tight clock.
I think it's pretty even, maybe slighly in your advantage.

After sideboarding you get acces to your REB's making it a little more in your favour, I think you should be able to win this matchup consistently barring broken starts in multiplies.

That's it for so far. I will do more testing later on.

@Dozer

Quote I have not tested against TnT so far, but I have had a lot of sessions against Womprax with his unpowered Masque, and he beat me almost every time. The problem is that VM has so many must counters that it is hard to get them all. Mask, Survival, and Shapeshifter are all bad news, and they are cheap enough that VM can play multiples in one turn. You just can't counter them all. Once Survival is in play, VM has a nearly endless stream of Dreadnoughts and Shapeshifters which is hard to stop. Also, Womprax uses 4 Meddling Mage and 3 Arcane Lab post-SB, meanig I had to side in both creature and enchantment removal (Aura Fracture).

Maybe you trying to be the control player too hard, you could try the combo way, it sure is possible. And once Surivals hits you don't have much of a choice

Quote So, the Matchup is hard, but I don't know how to improve it apart from siding in 2 Disenchants, but my SB is crammed as is, and there is no room for that. And there is just no good wishable enchantment removal - Reverent Silence does not cut it, especially with only 1 Future Sight, and Cleansing Meditation does not help against Blood Moon. Apart from a second Aura Fracture, it is still the best option available, though.

REB's are very good, they take out Mages and Labs, and unprotected blue shapeshifters as well. If they play Labs, Fracture is sure worth siding in.

Koen

[leviat]

I've been following this thread very closely because playing "Shining" has been one of the more enjoyable decks I've played in a long time. I figured I would post my version of the deck up although it's pretty much the same:

Quote The Glimmering :: Aug 11, 2003 (The Shining)

Control - 10
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Duress

Search - 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
2 Intuition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's Vault

Draw - 6
4 Acc Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush

Combo - 3
2 Future Sight
1 Fastbond

Util - 3
1 Time Walk
1 Fire/Ice
1 Zuran Orb            

Mana - 25
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 City of Brass
1 Tropical Island
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard - 15
1 Duress
2 Coffin Purge
1 Balance
1 Innocent Blood
1 Mind Twist
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Deep Analysis
1 Masticore
1 Meltdown
1 Vindicate
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Aura Fracture
1 Pyroclasm

Notes / Lessons Learned:

Meltdown
It seemed scary at first, knowing that I had the potential to hurt myself worse than my opponent but then I came to realize something. Often I would hold onto my Mox unless (a) It was a Sapphire or (b) I was going to try and "go off" the same turn I played them. The other thing I realized is that if there is just one problem artifact I can go for Vindicate.

So with those things in mind I timidly switched the Primitive Justice over to Meltdown. Wow, what a difference. The card is often so one sided it makes you sick, plus I have found that having moxen in the graveyard can be great for Tendrils. Obviously it's the best against Stax, but I have used it against Sligh, Keeper, TnT, and other decks to great advantage.

Lim-Dul's Vault
I play it over Mystical Tutor because a lot of times I need to tutor for Lotus, Future Sight, or Fastbond. While the need for non-instant/sorcery spells inspired its change, its power to predict my next five draws and the amazing synergy with Future Sight has made this card a must have. It's really great and you have to try it out.

Intuition
The second has really been nice because setting up the graveyard (Lotus, Fastbond, Gush) can usually guarentee you the YawgWin. Plus, watching the opponent regretfully put Fastbond into your hand is so much fun.

FutureSight
I've been toying with cutting the second one for a Deep Analysis. I'm really torn on this because I understand what a powerhouse this card is, but with such an aggressive meta these days I feel like it can be too slow at coming out (w/o Lotus).

Masticore
He's basically an insurance policy that I like to bring in against decks that might try to pull a quick Blood Moon. He also helps against Sligh which is my scariest matchup.

Bad Matchups
From my experience I have found that my worst matchups are:
1) Sligh
1) Stacks
3) Sui/Mask/Agony

I'm curious what people have done to improve these matchups through either card choices or play. Sligh is a wrecking ball because of the Price of Progress. Stacks just has to force through a Sphere and that's pretty much game (unless I pull off the Meltdown), and Discard feels like a total pot luck kind of game (I'm very tempted to go up to three/four DeepA's between MD and SB).

Is the maindeck basic Island a must? I've been seriously toying with jamming it into the deck but the only think I could imagine cutting is a fetchland or the second Tundra.

Has anyone tried bringing in Coffin Purge against Hulk rather than Pyroblasts? Seems like it would be better to attack the graveyard then try to fight the deck with control.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Meltdown

nicely done, i was looking for a replacement for primitive justice, and i too had passed over this earlier.  now that tendrils is the kill, and i hold back moxen as well, this fits the job perfectly.  i had been thinking of powderkeg in the removal spot, so i could blow up my moxen and them replay them, this works in the same way, if you're trying to go off.

Quote Lim-Dul's Vault

i dropped this to fit in AK's, but it might be worth testing again.  my problem is, when comparing this to mystical, i really like to be able to fetch ancestral recall first turn against non-counter based decks.  lim-dul is just that much slower, and clunkier when trying to go off.

Quote FutureSight

i would never cut the 2nd future sight.  yes, it can be a burden in your hand against control, but in other matchups, it is what makes this a combo deck.  the number of times a 2nd turn mana drain has led to a 3rd turn sight, and then won the game is too many to count.  there are enough things i need to tutor for anyway, future sight i want to see every game.  especially now that sligh and suicide are on the rise (at least in my meta, and at gencon), i need something i can just drop on their head.

Quote Masticore

I'm currently running an Abyss in that spot, since it helps against sligh and suicide among other random aggro.  masticore is a nice idea to bring in against bloodmoon, but as a one-of, it seems that if they've resolved bloodmoon, you won't be able to find him.

Quote Bad Matchups
From my experience I have found that my worst matchups are:
1) Sligh
1) Stacks
3) Sui/Mask/Agony

1) Sligh is painful, CoP Red and Abyss are my only real defenses.  I do run the basic island, and it has been great.  I'm becoming more worried, as I've now seen sligh with pyrostatic pillars (stacker3 as well), which makes our job a lot harder.

2) Stacks I haven't found to be much of a problem, since I usually have a lot of permanents too.  So long as I can keep their welder's off the table, I seem to do fine.  Sphere of Resistance is a pain, but I can usually work underneath one, and play the long game against them.  Basically try to play like keeper instead of like combo.  Meltdown will go a long way in this matchup.

3) I have to split these up since:

a) i have never lost to suicide.  my friend who plays suicide says he's never lost to shining, but i find that future sight (sui can't stop topdecking), abyss, and wish targets (chainer's edict, balance) win the day.

b) mask, i haven't tested much, but it looks atrocious.  we don't have the spot removal needed to deal with them, and they have so much disruption

c) i haven't tested much against rectal agony (2-0 in tournament), but my testing against the trix based deck was quite positive.  reb's and aura fracture don't work here, but i still feel like i can control them enough to go off first.  duress is key here.

my #1 is still Urphid.  Bloodmoons, phids, and now gorilla shaman/5 strips/stifles make it difficult to develop any kind of mana base.  that and they can outcounter you.

as i stated before, i do run a single island (in place of academy) and have really liked it.  its helped me out from under a bloodmoon a few times.

regarding the hulk matchup, i haven't done much testing at all, i heard its slightly to their advantage.  i also think red blasts are the best tool against hulk.  the deck is really hard to hate, and reb's hit everything except duress in their deck.

i completely agree that the deck is a blast to play.  it can also be a headache during a long tournament, because its so flexible in what your options are.  my problem has been that since the metagame is moving towards lots of mana denial, shining can have difficulty developing its base.

[Thug]

Quote Meltdown
It seemed scary at first, knowing that I had the potential to hurt myself worse than my opponent but then I came to realize something. Often I would hold onto my Mox unless (a) It was a Sapphire or (b) I was going to try and "go off" the same turn I played them. The other thing I realized is that if there is just one problem artifact I can go for Vindicate.

So with those things in mind I timidly switched the Primitive Justice over to Meltdown. Wow, what a difference. The card is often so one sided it makes you sick, plus I have found that having moxen in the graveyard can be great for Tendrils. Obviously it's the best against Stax, but I have used it against Sligh, Keeper, TnT, and other decks to great advantage.

I dont really like the Meltdown, now if your opponents plays a smokestack you will need to pay 1R and 4R, or 1R and 1WB to kill it, against decks like Stax and Mud you wont get to that at sorcery speed.

Justice at least kills Smokestack for 1R and 1R, even this is often hard to get, but it's a lot more realistic.

Quote Lim-Dul's Vault
I play it over Mystical Tutor because a lot of times I need to tutor for Lotus, Future Sight, or Fastbond. While the need for non-instant/sorcery spells inspired its change, its power to predict my next five draws and the amazing synergy with Future Sight has made this card a must have. It's really great and you have to try it out.

I ahve cutted Mystical as well, check my last list, but I don't see vault being worth playing. In setting up a kill I think it's inferior to Intuition. And against control it's just card disadvantage.

Quote Bad Matchups
From my experience I have found that my worst matchups are:
1) Sligh
1) Stacks
3) Sui/Mask/Agony

I'm curious what people have done to improve these matchups through either card choices or play. Sligh is a wrecking ball because of the Price of Progress. Stacks just has to force through a Sphere and that's pretty much game (unless I pull off the Meltdown), and Discard feels like a total pot luck kind of game (I'm very tempted to go up to three/four DeepA's between MD and SB).

Sligh can be hard, but I dont really see it as a problematic matchup. Deep Analysis sure is good against Sui. Against Sui you got lots of card drawing to make their disruption more or less useless and their clock isn't that fast. Maybe I feel a little more confident because of the 2 swords.

The deck I really fear is Stax. And I'm still not sold on a sideboard strategy to battle them.

Quote Has anyone tried bringing in Coffin Purge against Hulk rather than Pyroblasts? Seems like it would be better to attack the graveyard then try to fight the deck with control.

Actually I think and found in testing that you make a good change at out controlling Hulk. After sidebaording the decks will be very simular, the main difference are the wishes. Burning can Recycle DA and Will, where Cunning wish only starts recycling after a Tog hits play. But with only 1 pyroblast this will be very hard. Playing with three it sure is possible.

Quote Sideboard - 15
1 Duress
2 Coffin Purge
1 Balance
1 Innocent Blood
1 Mind Twist
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Deep Analysis
1 Masticore
1 Meltdown
1 Vindicate
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Aura Fracture
1 Pyroclasm

I think your sideboard has a little too much cool toys for Wish in it. I found myself wishing for answers less and less, I think I wish for Will like 75% of the time. I actually can't remember the last time I fetched Balance with it.

By cutting some of the toys (Pyroclasm, Vindicate) you can make room for Pyroblasts, which really are needed against Hulk.

Koen

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Quote  
Sideboard - 15
1 Duress
2 Coffin Purge
1 Balance
1 Innocent Blood
1 Mind Twist
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Deep Analysis
1 Masticore
1 Meltdown
1 Vindicate
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Aura Fracture
1 Pyroclasm


I think your sideboard has a little too much cool toys for Wish in it. I found myself wishing for answers less and less, I think I wish for Will like 75% of the time. I actually can't remember the last time I fetched Balance with it.

By cutting some of the toys (Pyroclasm, Vindicate) you can make room for Pyroblasts, which really are needed against Hulk.

Koen

I agree that wish has become even less of a utility spell and more of a bomb spell, but i still keep balance for the occasional suicide matchups and times when you get behind early and y.will won't help.

Vindicate is tough, since its usually what i use to get out from under bloodmoon, and i still haven't found a better solution.

[Thug]

Quote I agree that wish has become even less of a utility spell and more of a bomb spell, but i still keep balance for the occasional suicide matchups and times when you get behind early and y.will won't help.

Oh, I'm not planning on cutting Balance at all, it's still of the best Magic Cards. But it is not that good against the top decks.

Quote Vindicate is tough, since its usually what i use to get out from under bloodmoon, and i still haven't found a better solution.

As mentioned before, a blood moon played by a non control deck should be stopped (Duress, Drain, FoW) and against one played by control (UrPhid) you won't resolve your Vindicate. I think Fracture is your best shot at killing Blood Moon.

[leviat]

Quote I think your sideboard has a little too much cool toys for Wish in it. I found myself wishing for answers less and less, I think I wish for Will like 75% of the time. I actually can't remember the last time I fetched Balance with it.

By cutting some of the toys (Pyroclasm, Vindicate) you can make room for Pyroblasts, which really are needed against Hulk.

You make a very good point, you should have seen me debating to myself about cutting Elephant Ambush. It was my only "tech" against a quick Arcane Laboratory. But anyways, yes, I love having a "techy" sideboard, but maybe it's time to revamp it into more business.

Quote Vindicate is tough, since its usually what i use to get out from under bloodmoon, and i still haven't found a better solution.

You must be pretty good at ripping the moxes you need then. I have been considering swapping Vindicate with Hullbreach for a long time, maybe it's time to try it out. It allows for a cheaper disenchant when I need to get rid of a Stack since I'm using Meltdown, and has the added benefit of getting an Enchantment, (or even a one for two against VenMask/TnT).\n\n

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote You must be pretty good at ripping the moxes you need then. I have been considering swapping Vindicate with Hullbreach for a long time, maybe it's time to try it out

part of it is the fact that, yes, i am an uber-miser (we've played twice, you've seen me top deck).

honestly though, having even 1 basic island allows me to brainstorm and AK into many cards.  all i need to do is find lotus or mox jet, and i can usually yawgwill enough stuff back to be able to cast vindicate.  its not a great plan, but its the best we've got outside of the pro-active aura fracture.

i would really like to play hull breach, but i'll probably only make the switch if i start running more CoB like some of the others, and right now i'm happy with the base.

[Dozer]

Worlds is over, and both Mon and me played Shining in the T1-Event.
I went 2-3-2, mainly because of play errors and extreme lack of sleep. My 3 losses came to
1. Suicide with MD Null Rod and Chains (first round);
2. GrimPower Combo-Keeper with FS/Fastbond who was able to outdraw me first game. The second game was a draw, as he went broken with Timetwister + Will + double Burning Wish, but then screwed his own kill in the extra turns of the second game.
3. Toolbox Survival (last round) which I should have won, but it was 2 a.m. by then and I conceded the games because I was utterly unable to think due to lack of sleep.

My two ties were against Marten Bukkems (Level Zero here on TMD) with Vengeur Masque, and against a Keeper where I fizzled in the combo in the first game.

The deck I played was the latest version of Mon and Womprax, which I immediately adapted because of the addition of a card I strongly felt to be good (and it is). See the list:

//NAME: The Shining

Blue:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor        
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Future Sight

Red:
4 Burning Wish

Green:
1 Fastbond

Black:
2 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

White:
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor (should be Walk, but I don't own one)

Gold:
1 Psychatog

Artifacts:
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

Lands:
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard:
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Null Rod
SB:  1 Pyroblast
SB:  2 Duress
SB:  1 Mind Twist
SB:  1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB:  1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:  2 Deep Analysis
SB:  1 Balance
SB:  1 Primitive Justice
SB:  1 Reverent Silence
SB:  1 Vindicate

As you see, the Tog makes Abyss unplayable. Tog is used here as alternate win condition, but even more so as speed bumb against all kinds of Aggro. It improves almost every match-up. It is really good. Also, see the 2 Analysis in the SB. Mon has a slightly different SB, afaik, with 3 Analysis and 2 Null Rods. Yes, Null Rod. It is there against long.dec, and it is just game. Drop a Rod, and long.dec keels over and dies. I think that Mon is going to post something more about that, but it was an addition we thought of the night before the tourney. I did not play long.dec, but he did, so he will report on that.
(Also, how cool are French Null Rods? "Baguette de cassation"! Ever killed someone with a baguette?)

Also, the deck has 26 mana sources, and I'd really like to know how leviat gets along with having only 25. Against all kinds of LD, which is not unlikely to meet (like my first-round loss against Sui), 26 is the limit IMO. Also, you need that many to get enough colored mana to reliably cast what you need.
/edit: Ok, it has 25 sources... and I never had trouble casting what I needed. So, forget about the 26-limit.

Dozer\n\n

[leviat]

Quote Also, the deck has 26 mana sources, and I'd really like to know how leviat gets along with having only 25. Against all kinds of LD, which is not unlikely to meet (like my first-round loss against Sui), 26 is the limit IMO. Also, you need that many to get enough colored mana to reliably cast what you need.

Or even more importantly, what is your 26th mana source? Because you only listed 25 yourself... which happen to be identical to mine!\n\n

[Thug]

Quote Also, the deck has 26 mana sources, and I'd really like to know how leviat gets along with having only 25. Against all kinds of LD, which is not unlikely to meet (like my first-round loss against Sui), 26 is the limit IMO. Also, you need that many to get enough colored mana to reliably cast what you need.

[/QUOTE]Or even more importantly, what is your 26th mana source? Because you only listed 25 yourself... which happen to be identical to mine! [/QUOTE]

I also run with 25 mana sources, and the only difference is, -1 Volcanic, +1 Fetch. I think it's fine. With all the possible card drawing there is, you should draw into enough.

And I will replace one of the Swords with a Tog, seems like a good idea to have another win condition. The bad think is that it will eat your whole graveyard, so you will most likely only use it when you really have to.

Koen