Paragon Keeper 7/03

[PsychoCid]

I believe the decent purpose of this thread is to give people a glance at ideas and allow them to think better for themselves.

There was absolutely no need for a message such as Grendal's explaining that there are no right or wrong answers past the basic frame.  This is known to those of us worthy of the titles 'Vintage Adept' or better and, though I'm betting on the decency of people as a whole (knock on wood), various others likely do, as well.  In all honesty, it is -quite- difficult to play a deck for a reasonable amount of time with-out- making modifications to fit your personal style or needs.

While I genuinely appreciate the notion, Grendal, this isn't the place for it, as that type of thing should be generally understood for this time and place.  This post is more fitting as a PM, and should anyone have any more comments on such an issue, please keep it in the form of PMs or create a thread in an appropriate forum.

As for this, I opted to keep it public, so that everyone would catch the notice.  Anything inappropriate in this manner that occurs after this informative article has been laid out shall be taken care of properly.

Thank you.

-PC, Moderator

[Eastman]

Zherbus I'm curious if you'd reveal what changes you've made of late, considering it was brought out Saturday.

I won't post my entire decklist, but leave you with just some of the cards of note:

I ran trenches as a kill for the first time in competition this weekend... I liked it as much as I did in testing, but... I'm going back to grim/power. This combo just seems to work better for me (perhaps related to my 5 proxy build)

I'm using Cunning Wish now, as I have Drains at last, and used a pretty standard sideboard. SB Krosan Reclamation is a house of green utility.

I use 2 Skeletal Scrying Maindeck and absolutely love them. I've found that I never have a problem cutting Yard cards for this amazing Unblastable draw spell. I'd run four of these if I thought I could pull it off. I can pull off 2, so I run 2.

[Zherbus]

There were some minor tweaks I wasn't happy with, also I discovered before my first round that I was only at 59 cards. I dug through, looking for anything obvious and didn't see anything. My first round opponent was across from me, ready to play so I just added a land to make it legal. Later on, I discover that I was indeed playing with 61 cards which may or may not have explained the ass-drawing I had against EBA after getting him to 0 cards in hand and 2 lands.

I had a rough day of matches that really could have gone either way, but didn't. Timetwister was really great in 2 out of the 3 matches I played, but horrible against Reanimator. I kept using it because I figured its graveyard removal aspect would be nice. However, I later discovered that he was running 'disposable mana'. Disposable mana (Dark Rituals, Moxen you only need once, Lotus, Petal, and the like) allows you to go off quickly, and refilling a hand with the perfect draws will often give them a jump start.

I screwed up by giving him great hands, but that is on my ignorance of the matchup (who tests against reanimator? I know that I will now) and not on my decklist.

A few changes I had made:
-Duress +Impulse - Trading one for one is good against a deck with a comparable draw engine. However most other decks tend to draw more cards than you assuming their engine works. Keeper can't always play the card advantage game, so it wins off its bombs and solutions.  I use Impulse to find those bombs and solutions.

-Stuff +Tormod's Crypt - I added a substantial amount of these to my board. Against many decks they are amazing. In fact, If I were able to Brainstorm/Tutor/Impulse into another of these against the Reanimator guys, I would have likely been able to tie that round (I was rushing game 2 because we had like 20 minutes left).

I side these in against Hulk, mainly because it counters one of their draw efforts as well as slows their development down. A turn 1 Volcanic(reb)-Crypt, will usually give you the time you need to keep them mana light. They can still play around it with Deep Anals (which is hard if you have been ruining their mana development), but you can't deny the usefulness of a 0-casting cost counterspell. Anything that shuts down (at least temporarily) Intuition, Yawgmoth's Will, Rector, and Bazaar/Squee has to be decent, right?

[Eastman]

Quote (Zherbus @ Aug. 19 2003,11:23)an·y·ways    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (n-wz)
adv. Nonstandard
In any case.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

See? Theres nothing to get all pissy about. Look in the mirror before trying to criticize other peoples grammar (it's vs. its, for example).

Anyways, this topic needs a good closing.

2.
Anything that shuts down (at least temporarily) Intuition, Yawgmoth's Will, Rector, and Bazaar/Squee has to be decent, right?

Part 1 is taken from a different forum, and I reposted it just because I thought it was hilarious.. That guy had it coming.

As far as Crypt.. yes it's good in those cases and I don't doubt it can be a  useful sideboard slot, but I'd have a lot of trouble finding room in my board for it. I'm curious to see how you managed to fit Crypt in alongside all the necessary Wish targets.

I've tested Impulse (though not in the duress slot) and found it to be just too slow. The advantage of duress is being able to cripple or at least damage your opponents hand early game enough that you have time to build your mana base/ demolish theirs before they draw 20 cards at you. If I can worm my way into the mid game I never find myself looking for a way to find an answer. My problem lately hasn't been finding my answers but having them actually work. My complaints with Cunning Wish mostly involve the fleeting answers that instants provide not working effectively enough.

 I always assume that when I fail to answer an opponents deck it is due to my own clumsy(though improving) wielding of The Deck. My problems do generally center around the success of the solutions I bring onto the table. Whether you should conclude that my mistakes or The Deck's current build are causing this frustration I don't really know. I'd be greatful for any advice either way.

[Carbon]

I have actually dropped the red all together

Disrupting Keeper
//  Counter Magic
     4 Duress
     4 Force of Will
     4 Mana Drain
//  Kill
     2 Morphling
     1 Plague Bearer
//  Broken Utility/Card Draw
     1 Time Walk
     1 Future Sight
     1 Fact or Fiction
     1 Ancestral Recall
     1 Yawgmoth's Will  
     1 Library of Alexandria
//  Tutor/Search
     4 Brainstorm
     3 Cunning Wish
     1 Demonic Tutor
     1 Mystical Tutor
//  Bullet
     3 Swords to Plowshares
     1 Balance
     1 Mind Twist
//  SoLoMoxen
     1 Mox Jet
     1 Mox Pearl  
     1 Mox Sapphire
     1 Black Lotus
     1 Sol Ring
//  Land
     1 Strip Mine
     2 City of Brass
     4 Wasteland  
     2 Flooded Strand
     4 Tundra  
     4 Polluted Delta
     4 Underground Sea
SB:  1 Moat
SB:  1 The Abyss
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Stifle
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Gush
SB:  4 Disenchant    
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares  

there's my 2 cents worth

That isn't enough. Simply posting a list and running off does not meet the requirements of posting in this forum. I suggest editing your original post to include more content and explanations.

-Zherbus

[Eastman]

But why, Carbon? Disenchants are not a suitable replacement for Blasts.  You've got 4 very dead cards against other control decks and I don't see that an extra duress is going to make up for that. In an aggro heavy meta this could work but even then isn't a lot of this overkill? Do you really need Abyss AND Moat along with 3 StP AND Plaguebearer? How can you hope to compete with Hulk/Keeper/BBS/Urphid etc.?

[Zherbus]

Quote I've tested Impulse (though not in the duress slot) and found it to be just too slow. The advantage of duress is being able to cripple or at least damage your opponents hand early game enough that you have time to build your mana base/ demolish theirs before they draw 20 cards at you. If I can worm my way into the mid game I never find myself looking for a way to find an answer. My problem lately hasn't been finding my answers but having them actually work. My complaints with Cunning Wish mostly involve the fleeting answers that instants provide not working effectively enough.

The problem I had with Duress were manabase issues, not being able to stop topdecks, and being much worse later game when you typically need to solve a problem. It trades one for one, which will likely hinder your opponent but won't shut him down. He will likely recover from the minor bit of disruption since you aren't making the most of it most of the time.

For example, in Suicide, they can follow it up with a Hymn or a Sinkhole, then win in 4 turns with a Negator. In Hulk, it strips any potential answers so they can start drawing insane cards and winning in 2 turns with a Tog. In combo, it lets the player know what to Cabal Therapy for or whether it's safe to go off and kill you right there. In Keeper, slowest of all the decks running Duress, it prolongs the inevitable.

Sure, it might clear the way for something big, like a Yawgmoth's Will or Ancestral Recall. More times than not, Duress served in stopping an opponent from starting up for a short time... usually until they topdecked a draw spell or a tutor.

Until Keeper starts winning faster (like dropping White, adding Green and winning with Tog), I would rather be focused on winning with bombs available to Keeper. While Impulse may be slower, the investment returned is much greater whether it be in a more powerful card or saving you from 4 straight turns of land topdecks.

Quote
I always assume that when I fail to answer an opponents deck it is due to my own clumsy(though improving) wielding of The Deck. My problems do generally center around the success of the solutions I bring onto the table. Whether you should conclude that my mistakes or The Deck's current build are causing this frustration I don't really know. I'd be greatful for any advice either way.

I'm not certain as to what you mean, perhaps you could elaborate.

[Carbon]

As the environment progresses more and more towards combo and artifact prison the inclusion of more duresses seems to be more and more neccessary.  I have always had problems with 2 duress since I never drew them in time.  And if three was better, why not try 4.  They are great against almost every deck and at the very worst they give you intel on your opponents hand.  Duress intel also allows for much better use of brainstorms.  Now you can make better choices for BS filtering.

Duress provides a similar funciton to REB but is better against a broader field.  Since I have dropped the red from my build I do not have as much of a mana base issue since I am only running 3 colors.  

Often my first turn duress will grab key cards that wreck my opponents strategy until I can build to full draw and answer power.  Proactive countering.

I admitt that abyss and moat are not the best choices for an ideal metagame.  But they are there against the real world.  2 cards that shut down almost every aggro deck.  Call them a security blanket.

plaguebearer is another personal choice, but too often I have sat back shooting welders, noughts, mishras, and even trench tokens.

extra STP is there against aggro and rector.

[Eastman]

@Zherbus: This is the ultra clear version of what you were confused about above. I believe the confusion stemmed from the way I worked in the disclaimer.I will also elaborate more than I did previously.


When I lose with Keeper (which isn't overly much, I've been pleased with the deck) I can generally scratch up the loss as either the fault of:

1. The Deck itself/How I played it  
2. Pure luck.

Case # 2 is, of course, superflous to our discussion.

In case #1 where I do not believe luck was an important factor, I can often immediately determine a mistake on my part that cost me the game.

These losses are also superflous to our discussion.

There are some cases however, where luck is not a factor AND I do not see how I went wrong in my handling of the deck. These are the cases I see as worthy of study.

*Disclaimer*
In these cases I am still not entirely sure whether or not my relative inexperience with the deck is a factor. It is only clear that I cannot identify my mistakes.
**

What I've found when I lose these games is that the deck seems to run very well. Some of the normal early game give and take occurs and no player takes an immediate edge as we move into the mid game where I expect to shine.

THIS is the point in the game where I keep having trouble:
I will give you the most basic scenario and hopefully you can see how it applies to more complex situations:

It is turn 5 and my opponent is playing deck X. They have a threat of some sort on the board and I have a relatively good hand, with plenty of mana and all the necessary manipulation. I cast Demonic Tutor and am given my entire deck to search for a spell to play with counter backup that will hopefully ruin his gameplan. There is no spell available to me that will really stop him I wind up taking a swords or the like that will go card for card with him or a card drawing spell like Ancestral that  refills my hand with additional tutor and draw, but no spells to actually cast.

Now I'm not saying that The Deck needs its silver bullets back, but I do think we need more spells that can actually effect the board. Trenches may be a better kill than Morphling against many decks, but it is a lot easier for Gay Fish to kill you when they can swim over Goblin's heads. BeB may remove Blood Moon once in awhile, but it isn't as reliable as Aura Fracture and I don't think you would disagree...

What I'm saying is that it seems that as Keeper has upped the ability to shuffle away dead cards, it has also dropped the count of them. Having dead cards in certain matchups is crucial to winning others. I've started putting real answers back into The Deck, to give all my tutors something to do.

@Carbon
That makes sense and I agree with you about the 'real world'. I'm still curious about all those disenchants though...\n\n

[Windfall]

I'm glad this thread is seeing some more activity.  I find this build of Keeper somewhat intriguing.  I have a few comments on the recent posts here.

Dropping Red is not a good idea in my opinion.  If I were to drop a color, it would be White, but I already posted a thread about this.  After some discussion, I've come to realize that dropping a color from Keeper would change the deck so much that it would not be Keeper anymore.  There already are Ubr decks and Ubw decks out there.  Keeper is supposed to be at least 4 colors.  It is clear to me that Keeper needs access to all 4 colors to be able to deal with anything - that's what makes the deck work.

I went over Keeper's choices in White cards in my old thread, and I openly admitted that White was very strong in the deck, but maybe the only color worthy of losing.  When I look at the Red cards, I really don't want to lose any of them.  Having 1 Shattering Pulse on the board is far superior to 4 Disenchants.  Red Elemental Blast is very good in Type 1; we all know that.  You also lose Goblin Trenches without Red, which is a problem.  But mostly, I would miss Gorilla Shaman.  That card is so powerful in so many matchups that there is just no replacement.  The point of "Paragon Keeper" was to shift it into more of a mana-denial deck, and Gorilla Shaman works very well in that role.  In a deck with so many mana sources, you can really get great use out of the monkey by eating not only mana artifacts, but problem artifacts that many other decks also use (Sphere, Tangle Wire, Keg, Ankh, Cursed Scrolls, and the list goes on).  The first thing I thought of when I read the post about cutting Red was "How would this be the same deck at all without Gorilla Shaman?"

Impulse is a very good card in Keeper.  The deck likes to dig deep most of the time, and Brainstorm is not always good enough at finding answers.  I don't really think Brainstorm is a card-drawing engine at all.  It's only used to find answers in a pinch.  What it does is manage your hand, and with Fetchlands, it manages your mana.  It does a very good job at giving you good cards in your hand in place of dead cards, but it does not actually give you any extra cards at all.  Impluse doesn't give you any cards either, but it's a mini-tutor that does not put dead cards back on top of your deck.  I would fully agree that it helps in finding an answer in the mid game.  It's a problem when you draw land four turns in a row, and Keeper has a lot of mana sources to draw, making it more likely to topdeck land than other decks.  In a deck with so many restricted cards, tutors that do not come with card disadvantage are always welcome.

Cutting Duress is a tough call.  I would agree that Duress does not solve topdecking.  Nothing does except for countermagic.  However, Duress is a very useful card, especially in today's metagame.  It is not meant to stop decks, but rather slow them down and give Keeper time to develop.  Keeper is slow, and it does not always have the power fast enough to stop certain decks.  Duress gets rid of early threats so you won't have to counter them so quickly, but rather, when it's convenient for you.

Running only two Duress is a reason to cut them though.  I am aware that it's hard on the mana base to run three, and four would be very straining.  Having two will mean that you won't always have them early game, when they are the most useful to you.  And you will draw into them later when they will more likely be a dead draw.  So, in Keeper, maybe Duress just won't make the cut.  

Tormod's Crypt is interesting.  Of course that cannot be Duressed if you are going first or topdeck it.  So that goes along with the Coffin Purge tech.  It does remove everything, which helps and hurts your Timetwister.  It's great to remove useful cards and counters before you cast Timetwister, but it goes against the whole Gorilla Shaman, Wasteland, Timetwister "combo."  I suppose since you're going to be in a  good position no matter what, it's still okay.

But I would agree with Eastman in that you would have to fit them into the sideboard somehow.  Since it is not a Wish target, you have to play with more than one, and three seems appropriate.  That means you'll have to remove three cards from the board, and you may not enjoy doing that.  If it were my choice, I'd cut Aura Fracture, Coffin Purge, and Gush to fit these in.  I seldom find myself Wishing for Gush unless I have a Masticore in play, and this build does not use Masticore.  If I want cards, I get Skeletal Scrying or Vampiric for something big.  Coffin Purge is obviously replaced by the Crypts, so that's no huge loss (except for game 1, which could be a problem).  I would be concerned with losing an Aura Fracture, as this card removes the two cards that can kill you by themselves - Blood Moon and B2B.  Maybe you can live with only 3 Red Blasts on the board, cutting one for a Crypt.  Who knows until we try.

So that's what I think.

     ~Mark

[Matt The Great]

If you've got four REB, you don't need to worry about B2B. It's a non-issue. Blood Moon, however, is not, and for that card alone do I keep Fracture around. It's not entirely dead elsewhere, but if Blood Moon was not around, there would be better choices.

[Jesse Driggers]

@ Eastman:  About Carbon's Disenchants: I play in the same metagame as Carbon,  we usually have 16-25 players at a tournament, at least 4-5 of those are Stax or TnT.  having Hill Redwine in your meta is massively distorting.(he's working on p9 set 5, 12 workshops etc.)  also, there are only 2-4 real control players, and most of them are on a Stax binge now.  2-3 keeper as the only blue based control isn't much, especially when you are one of those 2-3 players.  I would still miss Shattering Pulse, though.

[Windfall]

Quote If you've got four REB, you don't need to worry about B2B. It's a non-issue.

When I play MonoU, which is one of the only decks that uses B2B, I can often lock down oppponents with a high non-basic land count despite multiple Red Blasts.  With enough counters, you can keep them around.  Especially since after SB, I will have three B2B against Keeper.  I'm not afraid to have multiple B2B in play.  I've written a lot on the power of this card and it only takes experience to understand that it is just as hurtful as a Blood Moon if not more.

Of course, you have a valid point and you are right that Keeper has a greater defence against B2B than Blood Moon.  Funny, how B2B is very rare and Keeper is so able to deal with it (as you say).  Even funnier is the fact that it's so difficult to deal with Blood Moon, which is on sideboards everywhere.

How easily can you find your single Aura Fracture in time?  It's not always guaranteed that you'll be able to tutor for it or find it early, and it's rough when you have to waste your tutor magic to find cards that will do nothing but keep you on the same level as your opponent.  I prefer to tutor for cards that get me ahead.  Of course, under a hoser, what choice do you have?  Either eliminate the enchantment or lose.

     ~Mark

[Matt The Great]

I would place good odds on your keeper opponents not knowing how to beat Back to Basics. A long time ago there was an EXCELLENT thread entitled "how does keeper beat monoblue?" that explained it all in exquisite detail. Specifically, read Smmemen's, Exeter's, and CrazyCarl's posts.\n\n

[Zherbus]

Cutting Duress was a tough call, but the right one. I do much better versus many decks because of that. In fact, before cutting them I was up to 3 Duress. I was still having problems against Hulk so I was certain that adding a 4th wouldn't solve the matchup. You can Duress whatever you want, but chances are that you will take so long to win that their key to outdrawing you is a topdeck (or a Brainstorm or a Tutor) away.

Impulse helps get bombs, which really help game 2 & 3. It's so much easier to dig around for the lone COP:Red, a Crypt, or a Shaman than before. Also, it allows you to seek your Wastelands out much easier which make it seem as if you are running more than is legal.

I decided that to beat Hulk, you either need to adapt the same draw engine or shut theirs down. If you adapt the Hulk engine in Keeper, you become a bad version of Hulk. That is not to mention that you have to cut business cards to make room for the 8-10 card draw engine.

The next step was to try and shut Intuition off. I originally tried Planar Void in the sideboard against Hulk, siding out Timetwister, Yawgmoth's Will, etc. It DID a number on Hulk, but it HAD to hit turn 1 for it to be of any use. Any later than that, then they would have a window to freely work with. Also, Cunning Wish > Naturalize could solve it easily enough.

Eric Wilkenson suggested Crypt in it's place, and we ran with that and did our own independant testing. It was much better and much easier on the mana base. It wasn't as definitive as Planar Void hitting turn 1, but it worked later in the game and allowed for turn 1 drops with counter backup. I cut a Purge, a REB, and Gush for 3 Crypts if people really need to know how I made room. B2B isn't much of an issue right now since noone is playing it over Bloodmoon, you still have 3 REB's, a Fracture, and a Disenchant to kill it, and fetchland > basic island works when all else fails.

Hulk can definetly play around it, but that's ok. Chances are, if you are hammering away at their mana, then they will have trouble either hardcasting AND flashbacking Deep Anal or even Intuitioning and flashbacking it all in the same turn.

Against Rector, Crypt is real good provided it doesn't get Duressed. You can protect a Crypt with a FoW or just drop it before they can discard it. Of course, Rector decks are almost a non-issue now because of the hate they've recieved.

Quote What I'm saying is that it seems that as Keeper has upped the ability to shuffle away dead cards, it has also dropped the count of them. Having dead cards in certain matchups is crucial to winning others. I've started putting real answers back into The Deck, to give all my tutors something to do.

Be careful, because this is how most Keeper decks get raped. They put so much chafe in the decks that you end up with an un-focused mess. Making more room to use Shaman and STP more freely but moving most every situational card to the sideboard has really been a boost to it's performance.

Quote What I've found when I lose these games is that the deck seems to run very well. Some of the normal early game give and take occurs and no player takes an immediate edge as we move into the mid game where I expect to shine.

THIS is the point in the game where I keep having trouble:
I will give you the most basic scenario and hopefully you can see how it applies to more complex situations:

It is turn 5 and my opponent is playing deck X. They have a threat of some sort on the board and I have a relatively good hand, with plenty of mana and all the necessary manipulation. I cast Demonic Tutor and am given my entire deck to search for a spell to play with counter backup that will hopefully ruin his gameplan. There is no spell available to me that will really stop him I wind up taking a swords or the like that will go card for card with him or a card drawing spell like Ancestral that  refills my hand with additional tutor and draw, but no spells to actually cast.

Maybe you aren't looking at the greater scope of the situation. For instance, in that one Tutor example, are you at a critically low life total? If your only option is to Tutor, does that mean you're hand is empty but they might have cards in hand? Is your graveyard ripe for the Willing?

This all makes the differences in Tutoring for a draw spell (since you may have plenty of life to deal with the problem), a Balance (or Twister), or a Yawgmoth's Will respectively.

This is all based off my Keeper, which you definetly don't run. I'm not even sure as if you have a full compliment of Moxen in the deck which makes all the difference to a good portion of my deck list. The acceleration improves Impulse and Twister, namely, which are two cards you have been critical of over easier to cast spells like Duress. It also makes the difference of whether Green is a realistic option.

Quote How easily can you find your single Aura Fracture in time?  It's not always guaranteed that you'll be able to tutor for it or find it early, and it's rough when you have to waste your tutor magic to find cards that will do nothing but keep you on the same level as your opponent.  I prefer to tutor for cards that get me ahead.  Of course, under a hoser, what choice do you have?  Either eliminate the enchantment or lose.

This is exactly why I play 12 Search/Tutor cards. You need to be finding answers and bombs.

[Eastman]

Quote (Zherbus @ Aug. 21 2003,06:37)This is all based off my Keeper, which you definetly don't run. I'm not even sure as if you have a full compliment of Moxen in the deck which makes all the difference to a good portion of my deck list. The acceleration improves Impulse and Twister, namely, which are two cards you have been critical of over easier to cast spells like Duress. It also makes the difference of whether Green is a realistic option.

Well I do still (well not still, I took this all up since it was cut) run Green... and frankly I haven't had mana woes despite the flood of Wastelands in our current environment. Granted I use only two moxen but I'm not convinced that it would be imprudent to run five colors even given a full complement. As Weissman has said City of Brass just isn't a big deal.

Regardless I've tried to keep from discussing those points where my own deck differs because obviously certain nuances wouldn't apply to this discussion. Your point about Impulse being among these is well taken. I still do not like Timetwister in The Deck but I've made that clear regardless. I am a little spoiled on recursion with Regrowth main and Krosan Reclamation in the SB to be wished for, so I can't be overly-critical of your running it given its useful recursive abilities.

Quote (Zherbus @ Aug. 21 2003,06:37)I decided that to beat Hulk, you either need to adapt the same draw engine or shut theirs down. If you adapt the Hulk engine in Keeper, you become a bad version of Hulk. That is not to mention that you have to cut business cards to make room for the 8-10 card draw engine.

Heh, I've tried this. After pulling basically my entire draw engine (sans Ancestral obviously) I threw in the whole Intuition/AK business.

I did discover that this draw engine can work really very well when it gets going, with Regrowth, Yawg Will, Merchant Scroll etc. all lending a hand. The reason I pulled it was because I was just that... Bad Hulk. The strength of Keeper's draw 'engine' is its resiliency. Playing half a dozen very different (compare Sylvan Library to Fact or Fiction) and very powerful draw spells over basically a single Engine (all of which must go to work for any of it to be of use) just seems more appropriate for the ultimate control deck.

Quote It's not always guaranteed that you'll be able to tutor for it or find it early, and it's rough when you have to waste your tutor magic to find cards that will do nothing but keep you on the same level as your opponent.  I prefer to tutor for cards that get me ahead.  

The mistake in your reasoning is the assumption that the best Aura Fracture is doing is  ' keep(ing) you on the same level as your opponent.'
Without resolving a Hoser, the decks that are bringing them against you are nowhere near your level. You are a monster compared to BBS or Urphid, and they need Blood Moon/B2B to bring you down to a level at which they can win.\n\n

[Maxx Matt]

@zherbus:

I play the 4° wish in the spot of the Merchant scroll in my keeper test deck and I relize after testing, that it perform very very well, with my only remora consisting on the obvious "near complete istant composition" of the side...

I now play this Side and it perform better than my previous one ( with too much Non Istant Solution .... )

3 ReB
1 BeB
1 Edict/1 Plow
1 Sword ( i have 2 maindeck Sword as you... )
1 Orim's Chant
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Ebony Charm ( if the field is Heavy of Trix-Rector.dec i'll use the Purge )
1 Disenchant
1 Fire/Ice
1 Flaming Gambit
1 Skeletal Scrying / 1 Gush ( I have skeletal maindeck... )
1 Renewed Faith / 1 Cop.Red ( second choice is only if the field is full of monored.dec )
1 Vampiric Tutor


my most swapped slot in the side is vampiric tutor. with it I can easily grab a Lotus or the lone F.S., but sometimes it sits useless and when I watch and the RFG pile and the Side itself I don't feel the necessity to grab it instead of another better solution.

maybe i can rise to 4 the count of ReB, but 3 could be the right number in a non completely Atog/Ophidian/F.S. metagame.

Chant is pure gold in almost every mathup. it eats opponent's turn or can stop his "big winning turn" and can block storm based combo deck while they are "DarkRituallingForTheWin" and could buy one or more turns  versus Aggro based Deck as TnT or Madness and can be reused if needed by one or two of the other FOUR Wishes. And without opponent's mis-d casting it is safer than in the past days!  .

With so much Wishes adding removals to side ( sword, edict, fire, gambit) in different form and in great number is necessary to have better solution during game one, but some REAL choices post-side.

I used Flaming Gambit so much for winning that rarely the Horde Of Goblins seal my matches. I usually can use one or two of the 4 wishes to cast the gambit and the flashback help me to use it 4 times with 2 wishes! it could be very very effective due to the fact that every deck usually deals itself 5-8 damages during the mid-late game via fetch, drawers, counter magic... so I don't need to pump it in an EXTRALARGE SIZE !

------------
Maxx Matt
------------

Ps. the maindeck I used is the same that you use and that you post. I only add to it the 5° Fetch swapping another land for it , swap Merchant for Wish number 4 and a Janky 61° card ( Skeletal Scrying...  ).

[AxeMurder]

The main problem generated by the inclusion of Timetwister is even if it's good most of the time it's always a risk. Sometimes you'll just lose. The question is how often that happens vs how often it's more helpful. Obviously the shaman's and 5 strips are very very good again rector trix or rectal agony or whatever else somebody wants to call it. The trick is generating an advantage though those do you really want to risk it all for a time twister. Sure it'll probably be better for you but the game was probably gonna be better for you anyway and you're throwing a new random element in the game giving them the possibility of drawing something rediclous. Babbles on and on.

[Zherbus]

<cuts and paste the first 3 pages of text where we defend Timetwister>

In summary, you don't cast it against combo (which should include reanimator suprisingly) and Sligh. It works well against control (Keeper mirror, URPhid, and Hulk) as well as recovering in the mono-black matchup. The only time I was ever bit in the ass by Timetwister was playing against Reanimator because I made the faulty assumption that sweeping the graveyard would have been a good thing. In fact, it operates just like combo and setting itself up again takes only a matter of a turn.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Zherbus: Do you mind posting a decklist? (12 tutor effects + Twsiter) I couldn't find one just looking.

As for the general state of keeper. I think it's still pretty viable. My build is heavily metagamed, so it would be almost pointless to post. As for changes to keeper...has anyone seriously thought about cutting red? Don't get me wrong, it is really strong as a 4th color, but I've found it to be lacking sometimes. Other than trenches/shaman/REB, you don't loose much. At first cutting red sounded blasphemous, but now, I'm tempted to try. REB's can be replaced with Duress (which can be played MD) or Misdirection, or something of the sort. The loss of Gorilla shaman can't be really acounted for, and the loss of trenches shouldn't be too terrible. The reason I want to do this, is because I REALLY want to experiment with Exalted Angel. I mean, the card is just sooooo good. The fact that it doesn't win in two turns like trenches is nullifyed by the fact that it acts as your zuran orb. With the removal of red, you can now run a more stable mana base and possibly a full complement of Duress or C. Wish. I know it may end up looking like a shitty version of EBA, but it does have it's strentgths. What do you guys think?

Keeper's hard matchups now-a-days are non-blue based control (with the exception of phid and hulk). REB's don't help in these circumstances, where Duress and others work wonders.

[Ufactor, the Restricted]

@Zherbus and Paragons:  I sleeved a version of this deck when you posted it two months ago and what I can't figure out is HOW THE *&^% DO YOU BEAT SLIGH WITH THIS?!?!
game one has been consistiently horrible for me.  game two is easier after sideboarding and adding Zuran Orb as card #61.  how do you beat Sligh f/ PoP, Ankh, and Pyrostatic Pillar especially without Zorb? is there some Jedi secret that I'm missing or am I too stupid to play control?



...please not that my meta is screwy and has no Tainted Mask, Venguer, Stax, or Mud due to budget restrictions.  Sligh is the aggro deck of choice and can make up to a third of the field.\n\n

[Eastman]

Don't pass off Gorilla Shaman, Trenches, and REB as replaceable. They are really crucial. Shattering Pulse in the SB is also incredibly useful. You would weaken a lot of very important matchups by cutting Red and I don't see that there would be all that much to gain. If you are interested in testing Exalted Angel you might try a modified mana base with a heavier component of White or 5 color sources (see: City of Brass)


edit:
@Ufactor
Generally a drained Pillar or PoP can turn into a game winning Mind Twist. If you are having trouble with Sligh I'd suggest adding some life gain in the maindeck i.e. Zorb/Renewed Faith.\n\n

[Zherbus]

Quote Zherbus: Do you mind posting a decklist? (12 tutor effects + Twsiter) I couldn't find one just looking.

That is because I haven't put a current list up anywhere. I can't settle on a definitive build longer than a few weeks, firstly. Secondly, I have a problem with all my work being for nothing by the time I get to a tournament and everyone is intimately familiar with what's in my deck.

Right now there are things that are mostly different as well as some experiments that I am trying. Hell, some of the cards that I am defending aren't even in my deck anymore. It's not that they were ever bad, but I have a metagame to consider.

I'd rather wait until I had my chance to use some of the stuff in a tournament sometime. I'd like to get the suprise factor going since Keeper will never be a 'deck to beat', but rather something you make out of X colors that can beat the 'decks to beat'.

Quote As for changes to keeper...has anyone seriously thought about cutting red? Don't get me wrong, it is really strong as a 4th color, but I've found it to be lacking sometimes. Other than trenches/shaman/REB, you don't loose much. At first cutting red sounded blasphemous, but now, I'm tempted to try. REB's can be replaced with Duress (which can be played MD) or Misdirection, or something of the sort. The loss of Gorilla shaman can't be really acounted for, and the loss of trenches shouldn't be too terrible. The reason I want to do this, is because I REALLY want to experiment with Exalted Angel. I mean, the card is just sooooo good. The fact that it doesn't win in two turns like trenches is nullifyed by the fact that it acts as your zuran orb. With the removal of red, you can now run a more stable mana base and possibly a full complement of Duress or C. Wish. I know it may end up looking like a shitty version of EBA, but it does have it's strentgths. What do you guys think?

See the thread in the regular Vintage forum titled 'Redless Keeper' where the creator tried going without red, then quickly went right back to it.

Quote  I sleeved a version of this deck when you posted it two months ago and what I can't figure out is HOW THE *&^% DO YOU BEAT SLIGH WITH THIS?!?!

Impulsing your way to COP:Red will go a long way. Zuran Orb won't do as much as artifact kill and COP:Red.

Other than that, here is something I wrote up for a friend who was having problems with Ankh Sligh:

1) Mulligan Aggressively games 2 & 3. You want to find
COP: Red or a way to find COP:Red. Vampiric, despite
costing you 2 life is awesome because it finds
COP:Red.

2) Shattering Pulse and Disenchant are better than
critter removal. If Ankh is off the board, then the
game is much easier.

3) Discard is really handy, especially when you Mind
Twist them down to a topdeck game quickly. Remember
that unlike every other competitive deck, they have NO
comeback card or card draw outside of a stray Wheel or
Fork.

4) Expect to get asswhipped game 1, unless you want to
lose to good type 1 decks...meaning we can't pack
Zuran Orb and extra spot removal maindeck because they
are dead draws against the decks most people are
playing.

5) Goblin Trenches is real good once Ankh is
controlled. Jackal Pups, Shamans, AND Cadets are utter
ass in the face of a 1/1.

6) Most Sligh players don't play perfectly and won't
save burn for blockers. Shamans make great early-mid
game drops if for no other reason than to deter
attackers. Personally, I'd like to save them for
Cursed Scrolls but sometimes you have to play with
what you have.

7) Cunning Wish is TERRIBLE. Side all three out if you
aren't already doing so. It's not only expensive
(against a deck that likes to deny mana), but it is
also REB-able.

8) Abyss is mediocre, I don't side mine in against
run-of-the-mill Sligh.

9) Remember that Sligh has no way of attacking our
hand and Black Vice is restricted. Save Moxen until
you need them in case of hungry Shamans.

10) If all else fails, add a second COP:Red to the sideboard and some lifegain. Hell, you could even change your win condition to Exalted Angel.

[LemanRuss]

Hello Zherbus,

I have been playing a Keeper deck in my country (France) for a long time now, and I must confess that your builds have often influenced my own way of building Keeper. Your decklist was often the most innovative and often, I enjoyed discovering your new versions and reading all the discussion around them. Now that I am a member, I would ask you several questions about your most recent build. Of course I know that, as you said, the decklist we can see here is different from your current version, but maybe some of my questions may have an interest anyway.


* You are using the Island/BEB tech for a long time now to be able to fight against Blood moon. How has it been working for you ? For me, it was kind of turning a 0% victory in a 10% one each time a Blood moon resolves, because the deck wich are playing this card are often using Red Elemental Blasts or other kind of disrupt that prevents them from this kind of tech. The other reason it didn't work for me is that it takes a few turns to be finally effective, turns in wich you are almost totally vulnerable.
The only really strong decks (and met decks) using Blood moon today are Stax-like ones, and against them, Cunning wish (wish is a part of your tech) is really hard to use because of Sphere of resistance.
On the other way, the lone island often screwed me when I wanted colored mana ; and more important: the Blue Elemental Blast is taking room in the sideboard.


* I have playtested with your new decklist last weeks. I don't know if  your current decklist includes cards such Timetwister or not, and I will not discuss about it as this subject has already been discussed to death in previous posts. I would just discuss about the mana denial strategy in general.
First, I want to say that according to me, a deck such as Keeper can't afford anymore to use valuable slots to include smal utility such as Wastelands until its entire strategy is based on mana denial. In my own version of Keeper, I choosed to cut these card definitively in order to increment the number of "good cards" and have a better manabase. The other way is, like you did, building the entire deck around the mana denial.


That is what your deck playtesting has revealed to me:

+ If the tech works, I could completely screw an opponent, and very easily
+ The Gorilla shamans really help against Workshop decks
- Against some decks, I couldn't do nothing as my deck has too many dead cards: even with the Abyss maindeck, the Suicide matchup is awful. Against other decks, I had'nt had enough draw cards, as Shamans could not make real card advantage
- Sometimes I could not screw my opponent soon enough, and all the Wastelands I was drawing in the mid-game were just dead

In conclusion, I had 50/50 victories against Stax, Hulksmash and even Rector Trix (because of the Phyrexian Negators it was sideboarding), that does not seems to be enough for a deck wich has such specialized targets.

Of course, I am convinced that my play has been suffering of many flaws, and that this deck would have done better results in the hands of a most experienced player... but anyway, I feeled that the density of "good cards" it contained was not as high as it used to be.

But that is just my personnal feelings. I am sure that your current version is working good, and I would enjoy to discuss about the evolutions of your Keeper's strategy - or about any other ways to improve The Deck's power in today's metagame.


Thank you very much for reading my post, and long life to Paragon Keeper.

[Bastian]

You actually the idea of replacing the kill card with an exalted angel?? What would you take for it if you needed to. Goblin Trenches?

[Zherbus]

Quote I have been playing a Keeper deck in my country (France) for a long time now, and I must confess that your builds have often influenced my own way of building Keeper. Your decklist was often the most innovative and often, I enjoyed discovering your new versions and reading all the discussion around them.

Thank you for the kind words.

Quote * You are using the Island/BEB tech for a long time now to be able to fight against Blood moon. How has it been working for you ? For me, it was kind of turning a 0% victory in a 10% one each time a Blood moon resolves, because the deck wich are playing this card are often using Red Elemental Blasts or other kind of disrupt that prevents them from this kind of tech. The other reason it didn't work for me is that it takes a few turns to be finally effective, turns in wich you are almost totally vulnerable.
The only really strong decks (and met decks) using Blood moon today are Stax-like ones, and against them, Cunning wish (wish is a part of your tech) is really hard to use because of Sphere of resistance.
On the other way, the lone island often screwed me when I wanted colored mana ; and more important: the Blue Elemental Blast is taking room in the sideboard.

It became City of Brass for a while, and I switched back because its really strong against Wastelands. It's a fluxuating slot and as I see less and less Non-Basic Hate, City of Brass looks even better.

Quote * I have playtested with your new decklist last weeks. I don't know if  your current decklist includes cards such Timetwister or not, and I will not discuss about it as this subject has already been discussed to death in previous posts. I would just discuss about the mana denial strategy in general.
First, I want to say that according to me, a deck such as Keeper can't afford anymore to use valuable slots to include smal utility such as Wastelands until its entire strategy is based on mana denial. In my own version of Keeper, I choosed to cut these card definitively in order to increment the number of "good cards" and have a better manabase. The other way is, like you did, building the entire deck around the mana denial.

I don't play Keeper so much as an Land Destruction deck, but a mana control deck. 5 Strips means I can reliably control Workshops, Hulk's mana development, Bazaars, and Tolarian Academy. It also serves to complicate the color balance that is so fragile in so many decks. Combining it with Shamans gives me the edge once we hit the mid game, while they are often still stinging from the mana denial.

Quote + If the tech works, I could completely screw an opponent, and very easily
+ The Gorilla shamans really help against Workshop decks
- Against some decks, I couldn't do nothing as my deck has too many dead cards: even with the Abyss maindeck, the Suicide matchup is awful. Against other decks, I had'nt had enough draw cards, as Shamans could not make real card advantage
- Sometimes I could not screw my opponent soon enough, and all the Wastelands I was drawing in the mid-game were just dead

About Suicide: Did you run Twister? Mirage Tutors combo very nicely with it.

Wastelands have never been dead to me, since I use Trenches and lots of spells that can utilize the colorless mana. Would drawing a colored source of mana been any different, since that is what you typically remove for Wastelands?

[Kheoinn]

If you were to remove wastelands, couldn't you add green back in? You get 4 extra sources of mana, and getting green shouldn't be hard with the advent of fetchlands. It may not be doable with wastelands, but with the extra space, it's at least plausible.

What would you suggest in a weaker and/or different metagame, with little to no nonbasic lands, and little power? Gorilla Shaman and Wastelands are largely useless in this kind of environment, but the mana base seems odd without them.

I can't say I have tested much with this, but it seems like a thought, where the mana denial aspect isn't working.

[PhOeNiX]

Quote (Kheoinn @ Aug. 29 2003,20:41)If you were to remove wastelands, couldn't you add green back in? You get 4 extra sources of mana, and getting green shouldn't be hard with the advent of fetchlands. It may not be doable with wastelands, but with the extra space, it's at least plausible.

What would you suggest in a weaker and/or different metagame, with little to no nonbasic lands, and little power? Gorilla Shaman and Wastelands are largely useless in this kind of environment, but the mana base seems odd without them.

I can't say I have tested much with this, but it seems like a thought, where the mana denial aspect isn't working.

Then perhaps a Trinity variation using the KrOathan combo might be possible. I assume it's more of an aggro dominated metagame so Oath should turn the majority of the games into byes.

[LemanRuss]

Quote Wastelands have never been dead to me, since I use Trenches and lots of spells that can utilize the colorless mana. Would drawing a colored source of mana been any different, since that is what you typically remove for Wastelands?

In fact, I tried Keeper versions with less expensive spells and replaced one or two wastelands by true spells to increase the deck's denseness in effective spells. Sometime I just drew too much lands and/or non effective spot removal (wich can happen with Wastelands in mid-game). Against suicide, I ran Timetwister, but sometimes I just missed a real silver bullet such as The Abyss to be able to win the game. That is why I am now sideboarding this card.  

Quote What would you suggest in a weaker and/or different metagame, with little to no nonbasic lands, and little power? Gorilla Shaman and Wastelands are largely useless in this kind of environment, but the mana base seems odd without them.

I can't say I have tested much with this, but it seems like a thought, where the mana denial aspect isn't working.

I think that in a perfect metagame with perfect players, Steve's list would be almost perfect. But as far as I can see, even high-level metagames had their part of dangerous random-aggro deck or so, and against them, this deck's strategy might not work. But I think adding The Abyss back in the maindeck would be enough to cover this kind of situations.

[CyberKnight]

I played keeper yesterday in the Eindhoven tourny. I ended up 4-1 (5-1 if you count my bye in round 2), finishing third with the same amount of points as the winner Kim Kluck (actually I beat him round 6 ). Instead of writing an entire tourny report, I thought it would be better to just mention the usefull stuff here.

Most Valuable Play: Gorilla Shaman (+ 5 strips)
This little monkey destroyed such a buttload of moxen, that I lost count after a few rounds. I played two maindeck, and I was never sorry to see one. Instant mana screw on some of my opponents when it hit the board, taking out multiple moxen like it was nothing.

Notables:
Duress: Again, this one picked away threats before my opponent got to play them. I played 3, and never had a problem to cast one.

Arcane Laboratory: Expecting a lot of long.dec (the germans showed up, performing quite nicely I might add) and wish-less tendrills combo, I added 2 to my sideboard instead of REB. When they hit the board it was game right then, right there.

Metagame in Eindhoven: Tendrills, Shining, Stax, MUD, some keeper, some Mask, sligh, sui, random stuff. I cut the REB, because I wasn't expecting hulk. I played wish-less tendrills twice, (winning one, loosing one), shining twice, winning both, and reanimator (win). If someone is interested in the decklist, LMK and I will edit it in.