I have been sitting on this decklist for some time, but u...

[Chaos Blade]

I hate Smokestack and all there annoying artifacts...how much easier would our life be if they restricted Workshop  . But then we do have Daze and Stifle

[Tripps]

Quote (wuaffiliate @ Nov. 27 2003,12:05)

Quote (Tripps @ Nov. 27 2003,00:20)Actually, I swapped rod for CotV and Curiousities for Mask, and it seems ot work fine. Usually I don't ahve to equip the Lavamancer, I can get some other guy, but if I have to, I can go ahead and swign with him, because I probably won;t ahve much to remove that early anyway, nothing that I cant remove next turn after drawign 2 and discarding one. It digs deeper, and provides Lavamancer fodder. It is also a lot better with the sacrificing of Spiketail and voidmage than Curiousity is.

Test it before you knock it.

this deck needs to optimise its mana use. chalice takes alot of mana which you cannot spare to be effective.

mask isnt better than curiosity, it helps lavamancer, but ive really had no huge problems using him. running mask also loses you 4 pitchable blue cards for an over costed pos. not to mention its basically 3cc to enable it.

rod is strictly better in this deck than chalice without a doubt.

I usually don't spend mana on CotV, just play it for 0, so mana really isn't an issue for me. I had to put them in over Rods so I could test out Mask, and it has been running great. Pitching to FoW has never been problem for me.

[GoogleBoots]

I'm with Misemaster on this one. I think that if my deck went like -4 Spiketail +4 Stifle at Lincoln, it would have stood a MUCH better chance. There were so many juicy targets in the whole two rounds I played before I fucked out. Especially necessary in the dragon match vs Moobius. Having stifle MD helps matches with MUD. Depending on the people at the Cape this coming Sat, we'll see if Stifle gets it's chance to shine.

[wuaffiliate]

dont remove threats for stifle, thats the wrong way to go. remove daze if anything.

and you have seal of removal to deal with dragon as well as stifle, boomerang, beb, fow, and so on.

@Tripps, if it wins games use it, but i win games with curiosity. rod is better than mask and chalice combined in all my playing.

also maze deals with big dryads and togs and madness creatures to add a few.

i dont believe in tier decks its pretty much just bullshit. fish is one of the half a dozen decks that has the stuff to take a tourney home. noone can dispute this because fish has had such a good showing all over the place its deffinately a top t1 deck. people dont want to admit to it because its a budget deck. look at waterbury, extremely competative metagame and 2 fish in the t8, you just cant argue with that.

[xaos]

=[ if somehow i can manage to slide on work saturday night you best believe i'll be at the cape power tourney reppin' gay/r... unfortunately that doesnt seem very hopeful right now, tho i am somewhat sick...  who else is planning on attending that tourney?  im just curious as to how far gay/r reaches towards my part of the state

EDIT: sorry off topic and all, but i just ate the best turkey/stuffing/cran sauce sandwich ever.  yum thansiving.

EDIT 2: i think im going to try -1 kai +1 stifle MD for a while, maybe it will get it's chance to shine just as MisD did for me.  at this point, even with a time where i ran 4 voidmages, i think ive only cast them two or three times... running an extra misdirection has saved me many a game, and i think that a stifle MD would help just as much.  also, theyre both still pitchable to FoW, which i think is more relevant anyways.

[Shaman]

Here in Italy we are debating about this possible change:

-2 faerie conclave
+ lotus
+ ruby

what do you think about this move?

With lotus and ruby, we can cast first turn spiketail, cloud, null rod, etc. much more reliably, but obviously we lose 2 manlands, that can bite for 2 in the late game. Has anyone tried this change?

[Misemaster]

Googleboots, i saw you playing gay/r at the Lincoln tourny. I was playing it as well, thanks for letting me borrow the factory.    

About the stifle i agree that the are a house but spiketail is a threat and cannot be removed for it. I would probably take out the daze has stifle performs better for me about 80 percent of the time. if you do move stifle to the main removing spiketail is a consideration considering the lose of daze. I have been considring rootwater thief.

Shaman
About the lotus it just is not that good in fish. Fish wants permnant mana sources, and also if you draw it once you have null rod its awful. i have been tempted to add in a mox ruby at times but overall it has not seemed to be enough of a benifit.

[fuzzedball]

and you want to minimize rod's effect on your on mana.

[Chaos Blade]

Yep tru dat. Also thats why I think that Mox Sapphire MIGHT need to be dropped in the Powered Version maybe..

[TutoreIlluminato]

Have you tryed to drop 3 Voidmage for 3 Gorilla Shaman??
How do they work? Do you think is better 3 Shaman or 3 Budde?

With 3 shaman + 4 lavamancer is 5 fetch + 4 volcanic enough red?

[xaos]

Quote (Shaman @ Nov. 28 2003,06:17)Here in Italy we are debating about this possible change:

-2 faerie conclave
+ lotus
+ ruby

what do you think about this move?

fish, as well as gay/r really relies on permanent mana sources... this isnt really a quick kill deck, and doesnt benefit enough from bursts of mana.  with all the card draw in it, youll be wishing that lotus would provide one mana every turn(minus the first), to cast another curiosity, activate a manland, cast/activate the lavamancer, etc.  maybe the ruby is a decent idea, but i already think this deck is lacking the blue sources it really needs, and to drop one for a monored source at this point would be quite risky.  plus, both of em die under null rod, and cant be dropped during a standstill.  maybe you have a far different meta over in italy, but i think this may still stand as true over there too

oh, and props to PTW for quite the nice deck... when i started building it, everyone was like 'fish?  thats so useless.  why build a losing deck?'  once i finished it, that all changed however  

[xaos]

Quote (TutoreIlluminato @ Nov. 28 2003,12:45)Have you tryed to drop 3 Voidmage for 3 Gorilla Shaman??
How do they work? Do you think is better 3 Shaman or 3 Budde?

With 3 shaman + 4 lavamancer is 5 fetch + 4 volcanic enough red?

as has been stated before in the thread(probably a few times before, actually), the shamans are a little too mana-intensive for the deck.  sure it costs 1 to blow up moxes, lotuses, CotV, and the rest of them, but besides that, its not really going to do much, as null rod shuts most of them down already.
   for those bigger(read: 2cc+) artifacts, i think rack and ruin SB is what really works... converted cost 3, which no other(i think, as i sit here) spell in the deck has, will always(well maybe, i think gay/r players might get some hate soon enough) be passed over when thinking of chalice drops.  even if they drop it for 3, this most likely means theyre playing workshops(or already at board disadvantage), and i dont think they'd do that anyway, with metalworker, plus whatever else costs three.  chalice for 2, however, is totally rough on the deck, but thanks to R&R's "inferior" casting cost, we can all deal with it quite nicely.

Quote (TutoreIlluminato @ Nov. 28 2003,12:45)With 3 shaman + 4 lavamancer is 5 fetch + 4 volcanic enough red?

   as for the second question, i wouldnt say it is enough, but i couldnt suggest where to put them in, as i am rather adamant on the anti-monkey idea.

[xaos]

sory for the triple-post, but im still iffy on the MUD/stax matchup... what does everyone think about it?  i havent had a chance to play a well-tuned one yet, but i can imagine its tough, and wish i could get some more testing done against it.  whats the decks strengths against the match?  what does it lose to?  what MUST it counter?

[Phele]

There is an edit-button just in the right corner.
On Topic: Shoot the Welders, Counter the Stacks. For the rest you have null rods and the board.

[Martyr]

Well, Null Rod is a very efficient card, but wouldn't it be nice to have an extra little threat/curiousity target? Is the added vulnerability to Fire/Ice worth making room for Shamans? Two or three would allow you to keep up with some of Keepers more insane starts, and they're easier to slip past counterspells...

...sort of...

I dunno. Has anyone any experience with Shamans main or board?

[panne]

I've tested 'em. They are decent. Good if you rods get countered and great the first turns along with wastes. Mid-Late game though.. its often 1/1 for R.

Seems like 2 is the right number, same goes if your playing Kais.

Choose what you like depending on meta:
2 Bouncers (aggro, dragon)
2 Smamans (heavy power, keeper, maybe long etc)
2 Kais (flexible, beats for 2. hate that UU though, thats why I would make 'em just 2.)
+ all the obv gays

Playing just 2 of the 4th creature in the deck makes room for Stifle and/or Dazes.

[Caelestis]

While this is off topic and I am not PTW, I think the thread is getting a bit too huge and clunky, so perhaps it'd be better if you start a new thread, PTW, and lock this one.

As for the Shaman, I never found them to be particularly needed, Curious Faeries keep Keeper busy enough, and a Curious Lavamancer can spell doom for them. It is rare for them to be able to divert time to Chalice you, and they'd be locking their best solution against all these things. In a heavy workshop area, you can just pack additional Racks and maybe even Fluxes....the Shaman doesn't do much basically.

[BreathWeapon]

You guys need to get Stifle out of your SB and into your MD. You are wasting far too many utility/hate slots in your SB by not including them MD. If you MD 3-4, your match ups vs Dragon greatly increase, and your Manabase is infinately more solid. One of this decks biggest problems is getting stripped/wasted to death, Stifle defends your jank manabase and this is incredibly important vs Mono-Black Aggro and Keeper. Stifle is also a TOTAL HOUSE vs Madness, which improves your worst Aggro match up by leaps and bounds.
Not only do you improve a popular match up, Dragon, and a critical match up, Madness, the card is still an Instant Sinkhole for U and performs a thousand and one other cute tricks.

Daze is not the card Fish wants to be using, Stifle is.

[Blommando]

Luckily dragon doesnt exist in my metagame(helsinki,finland) so ill rather go with dazes md that help me in _every_ matchup and keep the stiffles side for madness etc.
But really, fighting about stifle vs daze is just metagame and likeness call. Everyone swings at their own way.

Sidenote on the shaman issue: Its rather mana intensive and beats only for 1, but its true it eats off the low cc artifacts, but so does null rod too and it has proved to be good enough allready, so why fuck up the red count(and increase even more the chance getting screwed by wastelands) over the necessary 4.

This thread really needs somekind of direction..

[wuaffiliate]

Quote (TutoreIlluminato @ Nov. 28 2003,12:45)Have you tryed to drop 3 Voidmage for 3 Gorilla Shaman??
How do they work? Do you think is better 3 Shaman or 3 Budde?

ive tested shamen and they were decent, hell the deck can win with mountain goat in that slot. but i found kai to be better, he is mana intensive in a different way. you need to keep mana untaped to use his ability, which may not seem like being mana intensive, but if you are keeping 2 untaped, that is wasted 2 mana a turn.

im running 3 fanatics in the kai slot right now and its great, im not exactly sure if he is superior to kai yet. but so far hes been great. it may seem strange to run a non reusable lavamancer, but thus far hes delt with turn 1 swarms, early welders, plaguebearers, dryads, and lackeys where kai and lavamancer would have been useless.

fanatic is still in his testing stages, but he shows promise.

Quote (TutoreIlluminato @ Nov. 28 2003,12:45)With 3 shaman + 4 lavamancer is 5 fetch + 4 volcanic enough red?

it is enough, i run 7 maindeck red cards 4 mancer/3 red threats and i dont have problems, its only R not RR so i dont see why running this mana base would be a problem.

breath i agree with you 100%, ive been running stifle in Ur for some time now, and its just so damn good. i dont miss the situational daze one bit.

[Hi-Val]

I am packing Rootwater Thieves instead of Kais in my build for an upcoming tournament which is rumored to be heavy control/combo. As I see it, with two or three hits from Rooty, you can neuter pretty much any control/combo deck. For example:

Long- Burning Wishes (not a strong hit, but it does the job)
Stax- Karns (welders and 'workers don't do much with Lavamancers)
Keeper- Whatever they are running this week, Morphling, Trenches or the Department of Justice (DOJ!)
Dragon- The Ambassador

With the need to throw down a really quick Rooty, I am thinking of running Mox Ruby and Lotus. However, that does weaken the manabase, while opening up better opportunities for a first-turn Rootwater, which I am predicting will win matches.

PTM, you've got yourself a winning deck here.

[xaos]

for the other two people i saw at the Cape tourney with Gay/R... i was wondering, how much trouble did you have against the MUD-type matchups that were around?  how many of what were boarded in games 2/3?  for myself, i was running 3 null rod MD, games 2 and 3 saw (i think im correct here) +1 null rod, +2 hurkyll's, +3 fire/ice.  either it was just bad luck or less than fabulous piloting on my part...[excuse]i was sick as hell the past two days, and was just getting out of it[/excuse]. still, i think the matchup would have worked a lot better somehow.  any feedback you can give would be appreciated

EDIT: about the rootwater thief idea, i think the casting cost & ability cost are just too great to use enough... the fundamental turn for most of the worrying matchups are just too soon to get that guy working in time to save you.  i was considering extract, but i dont think its really hot at all, being a one-shot, and jester's cap is just too damn costly, not to mention dead under the Rod.  i cant think of any offhand, but are there any theif-like creature enchantments with an admirable enough casting cost to maybe playtest?  im all for removing the biggest threats while theyre 'safely' tucked away, not to mention being able to scope out just exactly what it is they're piloting.

[Hi-Val]

Maybe we need a little discussion about the play style of Fish. I know that would certainly help me! I have not pegged the deck's fundamental turn. However, in defense of the Thief, my play style leans towards getting the thief out early and hitting with it vs. putting out more threats against combo. This strategy lends itself to taking time after the big threats have been removed. Rooty seems to buy a lot of time if they have to dig up less and less Burning Wishes.

And remember, you CAN counter moxes!

[centroles]

so once and for all... which creature base is superior now?

Mono Blue Gay Fish

Critters
4 Flying Men or Manta Riders
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling or Rootwater Thief
4 Voidmage Prodigy or Lord of Atlantis

Draw
4 Curiosity
4 Standstill

Disruption
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Stifle or Daze
3 Null Rod

Mana
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Faerie Conclave
10 Island

Sideboard
4 Maze of Ith
4 Energy Flux
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Null Rod

The above is what I posted in my Budget Gauntlet thread because I couldn't decide.

also, now that long is gone, does chalice get the boot officially? though i perosnally love that card.

[TheRock]

Now that Long is gone, you hug your Null Rods even tighter.  Now there are more dangerous artifacts that you have to use Rod against, not less.  

In fact, these restrictions make this deck and Fish MUCH BETTER since it's biggest aggro problem, madness, is now all but gone.  However, Long was a decent matchup for Gay/r so it's not all good.

I have tested Mogg Fanatic since I do not have all three Voidmages yet and they have been pretty good.  Now that Long is gone they only look better since MUD will be even more rampant.  The only problem is that it forces you to play a red source turn one which is generally not what you always want to do.  I definitely think they are better than Flying Men though.

I still like Voidmage more since you can win with this beast without having much of anything on the table.\n\n

[Sandster]

With the restriction of LED, my Madness deck will no longer be able to compete, so I'm searching for a new deck.  I am very interested in Gay Red, especially given that at the moment it's still considered "rogue" by many.

I'm just wondering...with Dragon, Workshop, and Keeper decks being speculated as the best in the format now, is it better to go with Stifle or Daze?  Stifle can stop Dragon and a DoJ in Game 1 and can be helpful in certain aspects of the Workshop matchups.  It also protects against Strips, which probably will be even more popular post-restrictions (I'm not sure if this will be true or not).  Last but not least, it helps tremendously in control and Dragon matchups to stifle fetches.  So is Stifle probably a safer bet MD than Daze now?

[GoogleBoots]

@Centroles

I think you should post your list in a MONO BLUE thread, as this whole thread has had NOTHING to do with monoU builds. You are only wasting space with your post. Long, in NO way, affected the creature base of ANY version of fish. I don't see your reasoning on asking such a question, because it has been, and I think always will be, in one's own opinion. Also, why would Chalice 'get the boot' with long's disappearing? Do you realize that Chalice CAN see play outside of a match vs Long?

Now for some actual content. I played at the Cape this past Saturday, running PTW's build with -3 Daze +3 Stifle and a completely random board that looked something like:
1 Stifle
3 REB
2 BEB
3 Crypt
3 Flux
2 Fire/Ice
1 MisD

I went 3-2, coming in 11th. A very short report:
R1- Rob? Eric Moats' Dragon
Game 1- he takes a losing position and sends the game into a draw.
G2- He almost sends the game draw-style again, but he asked if he could take it back. He sees like 3 lands, I see 2 wastes. He sees some land later, goes for the win, but I stifle, he Fows, I MisD.
G3- Same problem, I kept drawing wastelands and he couldn't take it. I apologized for him drawing ass for land and I move on. I never saw one Crypt that I sided in.
1-0

R2- Don- wMUD
G1- He gets a good start and begins the ownage on my face. I just can't deal. Solemn Simulancrum is the brokez.
G2- goes FOREVER. He throws Chalice for 1 and I proceed to draw all 4 of my stifles(I kept them in vs the Stack/ Metalworker/Welder) He draws nothing and I'm able to have enough permanents on the board that he starts to almost die. He scoops.
G3- He says he played bad, and I don't disagree, but I win with those gay dudes. Again, I draw NO cards that I sided.
2-0

R3 Diaonic- Madness
I knew this was autoloss, but I went with it.
G1- I almost had a chance until he double Wurmed me.
G2- I hate madness
2-1

R4- Niko- R/g/U wierd.
G1-He played burn, and I suck at burn.
G2- I just couldn't take an 8 blast SB AND burn spells. I lose.
2-2

R5 Sytupal- MonoB Sui
G1- I get a 'Mancer on the board and slowly take his one land away.
G2- Shade eats me alive
G3- double 'Mancer + Curiosity= PWNED

'Twas fun never-the-less to watch Kerz and Adam rape the field.

[xaos]

Quote (Sandster @ Dec. 01 2003,16:40)With the restriction of LED, my Madness deck will no longer be able to compete, so I'm searching for a new deck.  I am very interested in Gay Red, especially given that at the moment it's still considered "rogue" by many.

I'm just wondering...with Dragon, Workshop, and Keeper decks being speculated as the best in the format now, is it better to go with Stifle or Daze?  Stifle can stop Dragon and a DoJ in Game 1 and can be helpful in certain aspects of the Workshop matchups.  It also protects against Strips, which probably will be even more popular post-restrictions (I'm not sure if this will be true or not).  Last but not least, it helps tremendously in control and Dragon matchups to stifle fetches.  So is Stifle probably a safer bet MD than Daze now?

ive been testing a bit with stifle MD, but have em(as said above) -2 kais +2 stifle in the board, and ive been trying out -2 daze +2 stifle MD for the four-of... ive so far never run across a deck that stifle is a totally dead card, but it wins matches.  stifle piledrivers +2/+0 ability(yes you can) helps against goblins, buying you a couple of turns in which you should be able to shoot it, and/or the rest of their threats, all the while flying in for the win.  stifling dragon works well, at least in addition to the SB, but it keeps you from the auto-loss that most people expect pre-boarding.  stifling fetches, strip effects, decrees, scepter activations, smokestack triggers(and about 112512365 other things MUD can have stifled) and about a grillion other things youll come across... it may not be game-breaking to start, but either it will give you a little edge, some more time, or keep them guessing long enough to pound some face.

as for stifling the standstill, am i correct in assuming this DOESNT work?  you may stifle the one trigger, but another will pop up once you play stifle, no?

EDITS: somehow i dont exactly think this post is coherent, but i can't pick up on it.  sorry, its late and i just had to work in the dark for like two hours and im spent

[Sytupal]

your mancer beats contributed to my killing of that build GoogleBoots...haha.    no matter how much i love the mono black ~    anyways, onto this thread.

I think stifle maindeck is a necessity.  I admit, i play a monoblue variant, but with seers.  The major setback is the lack of a first turn drop ~  Grim does fix that, and the mancer also gives the ultimate draw engine with curiosity.  so does my seer            With the spiketails, the dazes don't seem to be as a necessity as they were in the original build.  The stifles are also insane against chalice mind you.....     GoogleBoots with his lovely standstill, stifle chalice, manland beats.    Yeah, sucked.   Stifle deserves several MD slots


edit: edits  

[TheRock]

I love Stifle to death as I run three in my Fish build, but I'm still not completely sold as to dropping my two Dazes for Stifles since they are countersynergous with Standstill and I'd rather play that bluffing factor which keeps players guessing.

Since this deck is still pretty rogue I have been getting away with pure murder by running the two Daze and one Stifle and bluffing.  Perhaps this is why I haven't dropped Daze as I've still been able to use it effectively even though the environment really doesn't support it.

Madness is NOT dead players, keep your sideboards the way they are for now.  Even though LED is gone, they can still win games and they still have the advantage over you.  I just got stoned last night by a post-restriction Madness deck.