I have been sitting on this decklist for some time, but u...

[GoogleBoots]

You DO realize that bluffing means you don't actually have to HAVE the Daze, right? They just have to think it.

[TheRock]

Quote (GoogleBoots @ Dec. 02 2003,11:28)

Quote (TheRock @ Dec. 02 2003,06:35)

You DO realize that bluffing means you don't actually have to HAVE the Daze, right? They just have to think it.

Agreed.  This is where the basics stop and the mind games begin.

Even though you can draw a massive amount of cards, running only two Daze makes sure that you can use it and still fool players.  You can easily pitch it away too or use it to stop Sinkhole.

Think about this too; if a player IS ready for Gay Red, do THEY expect Daze or not?\n\n

[BreathWeapon]

Ah, the sweet chanting of Stifle MD is music to my ears ... it seems the recent restrictions and metagame shifts have shed the light on Stifles b!tchin goodness. Na na.

The metagame looks awesome for Fish in the near future. Madness is dead and Long is gone. Dragon, one of our stronger match ups, will become much more important in the near future. Even tho' TnT is making a come back, people who have Workshops and want to play Aggro could have always used Stacker ... so this isn't a gain or loss, Stacker is an equally bad match up.

That said, I do have my reservations. Now that people are turning their attention and Side Boards to combat Dragon, the deck may be hated out entirely. This leaves us in the absence of our most promising match up. Also, now that Long is gone, Bloodmoon and Ischron Scepter are going to be Fish's new problem areas. Chalice Keeper will invariably die in favor of Isochron Scepter Control, so we lose yet again another powerful match up in the future. The possible inclusion of TPS to the environment is also troublesome.

Granted, this is all in theory, but it is pertinant to envision the  far future of Fish as well as any immediate changes. It will be interesting to see if U/R Fish is still the right call in the future over Monoblue and its stronger Manabase vs Bloodmoon. Perhaps Landstill will contend with Fish in the near future as well.

Watching the future metagame of Fish unfold is going to be an absolute treat.

[Chaos Blade]

Right now im currently running 3 Daze 2 Stifle in my underpowered build.. but im deciding if I should switch those digits around?

[Blommando]

Well i have been eating my words and started using stiffles(3) in maindeck with 2 dazes and ofcourse im starting love them.
I will post short report after next saturdays event if anyone cares how finnish ppl play gay red  

[Misemaster]

Excellent join the followers of the md stifle. As for the metagame its not that bad although fire/ice on a scepter is a huge pain in the ass. As to blood moon outside of forcing it fish really does not have an answer. If blood moon comes back in full force ill have my mono u build ready.

[Chaos Blade]

So you guys are saying Blood Moon fooks this deck?

[wuaffiliate]

considering the deck just needs U to operate, moon will not mess with this deck. it especially wont hurt those who use a red creature in place of the 4th creature slot (3 of slot). moon can also help you use your mancer more easily and use SB RnR much more easily.

[Misemaster]

Thats true but if you are running PTW original mana base there are 2 basic lands in the deck and the mox so if blood moon comes out early enough it can hurt. If you fetched out an island though your good.

[Chaos Blade]

Well I dont think my Unpowered version wont be that much worried since I run 4 Islands.

[TheRock]

Back to Basics hurts much more since you lose the ability to use Lavamancer and to be able to even tap your nonbasics for any kind of consistent mana.

I wouldn't be worried about Moon or BtB unless decks start to run multiple copies main.  You won't see them sided in against you unless your opponent has nothing else in their sideboard to combat you or they have some really dead maindeck cards.\n\n

[Nastaboi]

Quote (Blommando @ Dec. 03 2003,22:11)Well i have been eating my words and started using stiffles(3) in maindeck with 2 dazes and ofcourse im starting love them.
I will post short report after next saturdays event if anyone cares how finnish ppl play gay red  

That's funny, I came up with the exactly same conclusion. I tested heavily against my Suicide the matchup before siding, and it was quite even, strictly in Gays' favor. So the most common matchup here did'n became any worse, and other ones get better. See you day after tomorrow (it's Finlands national day BTW) and see who is who.

[Chaos Blade]

Well how do you guys feel its worst matchup is now?

[Sandster]

Madness is not dead, so that would probably be a problematic matchup.

I'm thinking of adding one of the following to the SB (I counted Bouncer out from this):

Seal of Removal
Sigil of Sleep
Maze of Ith

Which one is best, and why?  Aggro decks in my meta are pretty varied an include Sligh, Fish, and Sui Black (but which meta doesn't?), and every once in a while a random fattie deck (i.e. elf with fatties).  I'm thinking Maze is the best choice ATM.

[Chaos Blade]

If ur meta is basically all aggro, then main deck I would run Bouncers and sideboard Seal Of Removals and Maze Of Iths.

[Sandster]

Quote (Chaos Blade @ Dec. 06 2003,11:27)If ur meta is basically all aggro, then main deck I would run Bouncers and sideboard Seal Of Removals and Maze Of Iths.

No no, I should have stated it better.  My meta is pretty mixed, but those are the aggro decks I have seen be played (which is pretty much everyone except Mask).  I like the creature setup so far (4 Faerie, Hatchling, Lavamancer, 3 Kai) and I'm devotin 4-5 SB slots to aggro matchups. Maybe 3 Maze and 2 Seals?

[Chaos Blade]

Yea 2,3 would be powerful. Grim already makes those matchs a hell lot easier.

[Sandster]

Alright thanks.

[Hi-Val]

If I have room for only Seal or Maze, what would be the better option? Pros and cons of each follow.

Seal:
+Comes down quick
+Kills Wurm Tokens
+Stops Togs
+Stops stupid dragon loop
-Can be Stifled
-One-shot deal
-Doesn't hose Aggro too hard
-Can be Naturalized

Maze:
+Repeatedly hoses aggro
+Stops Togs
+ Harder to deal with than Seal
-Can be Stripped
-Doesn't hose dragon
-Can be Iced
-Doesn't advance board position

I lean slightly towards Seal because Dragon will likely be running rampant in my meta.

[Sytupal]

Alright ~ this has definitely been my first post in this thread in awhile....wow, has it grown...

Now, working in a card store has it's perks and coolness factors, one of them being the ability to randomly come upon REALLY cool cards that aren't thought about or used.   Now, in my metagame there is one gay/r deck in particular that is attempting to run mogg fanatics as additional redness.  


It's a cool concept, however, i present another red card option:

Latulla's Orders  1R
Enchant Creature

Current Rules Text
You may play ~this~ any time you could play an instant.

Whenever enchanted creature deals combat damage to defending player, you may destroy target artifact that player controls.  


Now, it proves just by looking at it that with the proper mana available to be a hoser against artifact builds.  Now, i don't personally play fish or any build similar to it, like gay/r.  The best part of this card is that it's unexpected.  Throwing it down on a harmless cloud of faeries that isn't even "curiositied" is insane.   It takes care of those pesky smokestacks or chalice of the voids that aren't hurt by null rod.   I hope to get some kind of responses refering to this card because it just seems promising.  Thanks guys ~

[GoogleBoots]

w00t 200th post in this thread.

Sytupal, I think that, even though it sounds good, it may not be what the deck needs. Rack and Ruin, IMO is better only cuz it hits 2 and it can break you out of locks even if you don'y have d00ds out. I haven't tested it, or thought about it, but that's how it looks from here.

[Sandster]

A large portion of the deck is 2CC, so having a 2CC answer to chalice isn't exactly prudent.  Rack and Ruin is probably the best answer, as no other spell in the deck is 3CC.

Against prison decks it's a different story.  The card does have merit in those matchups, but that's more SB space dedicated to the matchup when Rack and Ruin does fine.

[Blommando]

Ah, gay fish is just so..gay, especially in finland

I managed to qualify to second place(no t8 unfortunately the time ran out) at saturday's tourney which had ~15 players which ment 5 rounds with sweating, smelly players.

1st round: Dragon, obviously one of the bad matchups we got and there was nothing i really could have done, well ofcourse i got lucky and won the first game with gay beatings when he didnt draw land after my strips. After sideboarding he just owns me fairly fast.
(1-2)
0-1

2nd round: Unpowered ose, what can i say..curious faeries and manadenial does the trick in two games.
(3-2)
1-1

3rd round: PT-funk, both games end nearly as soon as they start to counter backup'd lavamancer with curiosity and lots of little gay friends.  1st turn mancer >>> 1st turn necro
(5-2)
2-1

4th round: Suicide, again..the allmighty lavamancer just owns the deck singlehandedly...with conclaves, mishras and mad topdecking
(7-2)
3-1

5th round: Long,
first game, i just lay down fast null rod, hatchling and start tempering with his manabase.

second game, i start with conclave go, he goes off with twister, plays everything he has and tendrils me for...16 ! uh..how lucky, next turn i lay down null rod and waste his land and the game is over after couple rounds of beatings with double curious mancer with happy friends and 2 null rods in table.
(9-2)
4-1

Now in to the question what does this crappy report tell us or what do we gain from it, the answer is...nothing propably. Just wanted to post how our beloved deck does. and btw Nastaboi did qualify as fourth with gay red too.

[Chaos Blade]

I have a question on how Seal works. What would you bounce with it during the Dragon match-up?

[Sandster]

Quote (Chaos Blade @ Dec. 07 2003,17:40)I have a question on how Seal works. What would you bounce with it during the Dragon match-up?

When Dragon comes into play, its CIP ability triggers.  In response, you bounce it back to the hand, so the leaves play trigger goes on stack on top of the first one.  As such, everything is removed from the game and he never gets it back.

Any removal/bounce ability/spell works the same way (i.e. Boomerang, Swords, Edict, Waterfront Bouncer, etc.)

[Chaos Blade]

Ah so then it will leave them pernament less or you two? Thanks

[Sandster]

Quote (Chaos Blade @ Dec. 07 2003,18:01)Ah so then it will leave them pernament less or you two? Thanks

They are left with nothing on the board while you have everything intact.  The thing to watch out for here is if there's another dragon in the grave and the Dragon player with mana floating; they can just lay a land and cast another animate spell.

[xaos]

As I haven't seen a gay/r decklist(cough) posted in a while, i'll post mine.  explanations for the changes i've made from PTW's original decklist will be explained after the list.

metagame is really varied, tourneys having a lot of power, and usually a lot of smart players.  thats not to say there arent any good rogue, sligh, or other various aggro decks running around. basically, the deck must compete well against the power decks, and still stomp aggro, this is a tough thing to balance out, especially when not playing with a couple thousand dollar's worth of deck.  this decklist meets both of those requirements, and i believe it's a real fun deck to play(this deck seems to have more maindeck answers available to so many situations, its mucho good to see the look on an opponents face when you deal one of these out to win the first game.  the sideboard makes it only easier, removing the less-than-perfect hosers for those that fit in snugly.  ive piloted a lot of 2-0's with this deck)

gay red

// creatures- 13(+6)
4 grim lavamancer
4 cloud of faeries
3 spiketail hatchling
2 mogg fanatic

// disruption- 14
4 force of will
4 stifle
3 daze
3 null rod

// draw/broken- 10
4 curiosity
4 standstill
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk

//mana- 23
4 volcanic island
4 flooded strand
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
2 faerie conclave
2 island
1 strip mine
1 library of alexandria
1 mox sapphire

I'll post the reasoning behind the changes in a moment.  about a half hour ago, i was posting both, and my pos computer crashed.  irritating, yes.

for comparative reasons, heres PTW's build from page 1

Quote Gay Red
4 grim lavamancer
4 cloud of faerie
4 spiketail hatchling
3 voidmage prodigy

4 force of will
1 misdirection
3 daze
4 standstill
4 curiosity
3 null rod
1 ancestral
1 time walk

4 mishra's factory
2 faerie conclave
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
1 library of alexandria
1 mox sapphire
2 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
2 island
4 volcanic island

and now, the changes

removed
-1 spiketail hatchling
-3 voidmage prodigy
-1 misdirection
-2 polluted delta

replacements
+2 mogg fanatic
+4 stifle
+1 flooded strand

    reasons for the removal of cards

-2 polluted delta(+1 flooded strand)
    first of all, i removed a mana source.  24 versus 23 hasn't hurt a bit.  this deck tops out at 2cc(ok, not the harcast FoW), remember?  i decided that the 5 fetches were a little much, with only 6 fetchable lands in the deck, so out went the deltas, and one more strand came in.

-3 voidmage prodigy.
    ok, this is the card in the deck that always screamed out from my hand, telling me he was just inadequate in a deck that has so much to do turn two, that it wont get dropped.  especially seeing as 10/23 of the mana base is colorless, this creature tends to sit in my hand waiting to be pitched to force of will.  not a hot thing for such a tight deck to do a lot with.  

-1 spiketail hatchling
    this cut was simply because i wanted to fit other, better(at least as i see it, in my meta) cards in, and it was the weakest link.  i already have 3 dazes for the force spikes, and i believe in today's meta, 19 creatures/man-lands is enough to overrun, especially since the changes make those much-disrupted games against combo and control much easier to survive.

-1 Misdirection
    this cut was sad, but as i've stated in other threads, one of the powers of today's metagame is untargeted effects.  theres just not enough use for it these days, at least maindeck.

    reasons behind the addition of new cards

+4 stifle
    i went into some depth into the coolness that is stifle in another thread, "The Strength of Misdirection" just the other day.  here's the relevant part.

Quote
 use it as a strip effect when you need it(never any harm in stocking up on these, especially when it can do something else anyway), stopping the fetch, or the opponents' strip effects.
  use it to negate an upkeep prison-type effect.  the abyss, smokestack, tangle wire, Worb, among many others.  sometimes all it takes is one chance to swing these fragile matches in your favor.
  use it to save yourselves from lots of fast combo.  tendrils, dragon, and others.
  use it against some damn irritating creatures.  im not talking tog or mongrel activations here.  madness creatures, welder, piledriver, sometimes youll even tap the blue mage out with no more mana to activate 'phlings untargetability(this has won me at least a game before).
  use it to stop things that are 'uncounterable', decree of justice(and other cycling triggers), storm spells,comes into play triggers(like imprint), leaves play triggers, etc

theres a lot more uses than what i went over there, and i believe this is one of, if not the most versatile of gay cards.

+1 flooded strand
    see the reasoning behind removinmg polluted delta.  nuff said.

+2 mogg fanatic
    this is my newest change, trying him out over 1 spiketail and 1 voidmage.  so far i like him, but there are some issues to address.  first, he costs one red mana.  this is a great first turn drop, when you have the red mana available that early, but thats one catch.  once in a while it takes a few turns to run into that red source you're looking for.  secondly, although voidmage is a 2/1, i consider him inferior.  the prodigy only has a chance to take out one 1- or 2-toughness creature during combat(granted, up to 4 with a timely lavamancer activation, but nonetheless only during combat), but between the voidmage and the enemy creature, you only have the option to trade card advantage 1-for-1, often enough 1-for-0. the fanatic can do just the same, but you have the option to either just forget about the beef staring back at him, and ping to the head, eat a 1-toughness weenie, finish off the 2-toughness creature you were assigned in combat, or another one you weren't, let alone responding to removal, or whatever you please during any phase of the game.  the deck shines when its sporting card advantage, and between the diverse amount of things the fanatic can do, it's fully dug into its slot for the deck.  being able to achieve higher quantities of direct damage between these guys and the lavamancer wins games.  also, in my experience with the deck, i've found i want more answers to creature threats already on the board, than having another counter(remember, this deck likes to tap out often, between the man-lands, the threats, and the card drawing). finally, i consider this card extremely gay, to ice the cake.



whew.  about 1500 edits and 5 crashes later, i notice i've written quite a good deal about gay/r.  thanks to everyone so far thats made the deck what it is today. this deck rocks  

oh yeah, and ill post about my sideboard later.  after spending so much time doing this, i gotta take a break from it.

[BreathWeapon]

I posted this in the other thread, and i'll post it here as well.
Stifle can cancel the Imprint of a Scepter when it comes into play, so it is an effective hard counter against it. Yet another reason why Stifle > Daze.

Sceptered Fire/Ice is the SUCK.

Also, I highly suggest looking into Mystic Remora as a SB option against Long.dec, until Jan 1st, and TPS after Jan 1st. It was my hella top secret Fish tech. Pyrostatic Pillars are also pretty nifty, but not nearly as cool.\n\n

[Hi-Val]

So Mystic Remora vs. Arcane Lab when screwing around with TPS and Long? Remora comes out fast but goes away soon. It draws into something like 9-10 spells. But it doesn't actively screw Long the way that Arcane Lab does. The downside is that you may never hit 3 mana against Long. Opinions?