[Discussion] Should the number of proxies be increased?

[Toad]

If a so-called "PTQ player" who never plays Type One and netdecks the day before the tournament wins, then either change your deck, or learn how to play Magic. They win with decks they have not worked on it? Well, just admit they are better than you. Deckbuilding skills have nothing to do with play skills. Playtesting for hours is cool, but knowing how to play Magic will win you far more games.

[The Atog Lord]

First, let me say that there is nothing wrong with PTQ players. I've won a couple of PTQs myself.

Second, I'd vote for five, or maybe even ten proxies. What I don't like about unlimited proxies is that most tournaments have power cards as prizes. Having a power tournament with unlimited proxies and a mox as the prize seems a bit hypocritical.

[Dr. Sylvan]

If you look at WotC's stats, people will play even more when they can build the decks more easily. The number of constructed tournaments doubled when Invasion came out (a block which was famous for how it seemed like just about every rare could be played in Constructed.)

The reason that I like something like unlimited proxies or pre-Legends only is because WotC has tried very hard to bring down the barrier to entry in Standard so it only contrasts even more strongly. If I want to play Ravager Affinity at Regionals for instance, that deck has only about 7 rares in it, and that's the best deck in the format.

Wow, JP pwned everyone in two paragraphs. I just wanna know where those stats are!

I voted ten because time-sensitive proxies (Zherbus says pre-Legends, I say pre-Ice Age... *shrug*) wasn't an option. Time-sensitive is by far superior to a definite number, because that way we always need to keep up with our niche cards from new sets, incentivizing Wizards' R&D of such cards. I believe this is the most important thing we can do as our community grows to support our obligation to pay Wizards for their awesomeness and continuing support. Unlimited proxies, while it encourages a highly competitive ("ideal") metagame, is just failing to recognize the fundamental need to demonstrate to WotC that we do our part to pay them (and strikes me as dishonest). A time-sensitive proxy policy encourages both the high attendance that rewards TOs/stores and singles sales that reward stores/WotC.

GenCon should always be sanctioned so that WotC can officially recognize it, and so that there's a large audience of people who need real Power at least once a year. If that proves to be a consistently bigger and bigger event every year, Wizards will have a reason to run another huge sanctioned event at another time, creating a sort of psuedo-GP circuit, provided we show up enough. This amount of support would undoubtedly maintain the value of real Power for the foreseeable future.

[Jawman16]

I have not posted in awhile but I feel a need to give my $.02.  I feel torn between both sides of the issue.  I do feel that Type I is more of a commitment then any other format at least from a monetary perspective.  I agree with MarkPharaoh that players can aquire power if they want to.  I have P9 right now.  I paid for all of it.  I paid for half of my car when I was 16.  I pay for insurance, gas, etc...  All of this can be achieved by anyone who is willing to work and by no means did I have the best job in the world throughout High School.

I played at the last Columbus mox tourney without proxying a card.  It was a fun time but I saw people who proxied every single card in the deck.  A kid proxied a cloud of gay (faires)!  That is a 25 cent card.  If a player is not willing to pay a quarter to build a deck, that is when I have a problem.  That in my mind this is a slap in the face to our format that we love so much.  Sure, allowing unlimited proxies opens up the playing field but it dilutes the playing field at the same time.  Sure some good player might hit up the Workshops he cannot afford but when people dont own a single card in their deck odds are they are not going to be very fluent with it.  Is this what we want from our tournaments?  12 year olds (No offense to any younger players who are competent) who write with marker on the backs of cards and really have no idea what they are doing? I know I sure don't.  I dont mind proxies as long as they are not out of control.  

I believe that we as a community could come up with a list of cards that are allowed to be proxied and try to push that list on TO's.  This may be slightly idealogical but it could be done with some ease.  ie:  When a TO posts a tournament announcement, he could also post a list of cards that will be allowed to proxied.  I think that a list with P10, Mana Drain, Bazaar, Workshop, Mask etc... would work fine as a grounds for proxying.

[Nitelite]

I voted ten because time-sensitive proxies (Zherbus says pre-Legends, I say pre-Ice Age... *shrug*) wasn't an option. Time-sensitive is by far superior to a definite number, because that way we always need to keep up with our niche cards from new sets, incentivizing Wizards' R&D of such cards.

  As a returning player, I totally disagree with this.  I haven't played in 5-6 years and have all the power and core t1 cards pre-Mirage.  I have been thinking about getting back into things and have been throwing together a few decks.  Obviously, it's the newer cards I need to proxy. They didn't have pitch lands when I collected, or cunning wishes, or Morphlings.  And while they are inexpensive (relatively), if proxies are being allowed, by instituting any type of time-sensitive restriction, you penalize the players that helped get this game off the ground and reward the people hopping on the late train. "We can proxy the cards YOU have, but you can't proxy ours." Doesn't make much sense to me.

  It comes down to supporting WoTC. As I get back into the game, I will surely start buying product from them again, but they no longer produce Urza Saga boosters. Why is proxying from that any different then proxying from any of the "older" sets?

  5 Proxies is the right amount, as long as they are from any set.

[jpmeyer]

Cunning Wish: $5
Mana Drain: $50

Also, "returning" players are not "new" players.  You don't have a barrier to entry.

[Dr. Sylvan]

And while they are inexpensive (relatively), if proxies are being allowed, by instituting any type of time-sensitive restriction, you penalize the players that helped get this game off the ground and reward the people hopping on the late train.

It doesn't penalize the grayest players, in fact, by encouraging a large audience, Power prices will be sustained and continue to grow (see my pseudo-GP logic). This means you've made an incredible return on your initial investment. The problem isn't for the people who own Power and have for a long time; they've already received a windfall of value from long ownership. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect those people who've been out of the game for a long time to catch up with the people who've done all the legwork that makes their collection still valuable. The "late train" of people who became serious T1 players several years ago is the reason why there even is a proxy debate.

[Klep]

  As a returning player, I totally disagree with this.  I haven't played in 5-6 years and have all the power and core t1 cards pre-Mirage.  I have been thinking about getting back into things and have been throwing together a few decks.  Obviously, it's the newer cards I need to proxy. They didn't have pitch lands when I collected, or cunning wishes, or Morphlings.  And while they are inexpensive (relatively), if proxies are being allowed, by instituting any type of time-sensitive restriction, you penalize the players that helped get this game off the ground and reward the people hopping on the late train. "We can proxy the cards YOU have, but you can't proxy ours." Doesn't make much sense to me.

Mox = ~$200-300
Ancestral = $300+
Workshop = $100+
Drain = $50+

Wishes = ~$6
Morphling = ~$15
Fetchlands = $5-10

Stop complaining that you have to get the same cards everyone else can find easily when you already have the cards most people struggle to get.

[Nitelite]

Also, "returning" players are not "new" players. You don't have a barrier to entry.

  I am not sure what is meant by this.

This means you've made an incredible return on your initial investment. The problem isn't for the people who own Power and have for a long time; they've already received a windfall of value from long ownership. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect those people who've been out of the game for a long time to catch up with the people who've done all the legwork that makes their collection still valuable. The "late train" of people who became serious T1 players several years ago is the reason why there even is a proxy debate.

This is a great argument.  You're absolutely right.  But by the same token, if there wasn't people playing the format in the beginning, there would be no train to hop on now.  All I am saying is: You want to copy cards I have because you started late? Thats fine. Just allow me the same considerations and copy cards you have because I wasn't playing when they came out.

Mox = ~$200-300
Ancestral = $300+
Workshop = $100+
Drain = $50+

Wishes = ~$6
Morphling = ~$15
Fetchlands = $5-10

Stop complaining that you have to get the same cards everyone else can find easily when you already have the cards most people struggle to get.

First, I am not complaining. I don't know if you have taken my argument personally, but discussion is hardly complaining. Second, I don't know a single person that plays magic.  I have no connections outside of the Net with people involved in this game. Therefore, I have to do the same amount of work no matter what I want to aquire, the only difference is the price.  Which brings me to my last point.

Many of you have brought up the costs of the cards.  When exactly does a card go from affordable to expensive? $20? $50? $100? It's kind of relative isn't it?  I don't have much money now, so kicking out $30 for a playset of fetchlands is expensive to me.  And if cost if the fundamental quantifier of why cards should be proxied, instead of using a set as the cutoff, use a price.  I don't see why you can proxy a mana crypt and dual lands, and I can't proxy morphlings and cursed scrolls.

Nitelite

[mtg_player_2004]

BA-LETED! -jpmeyer[/color]

[jpmeyer]

This is why when you argue, you don't use anecdotal evidence.

[MarkPharaoh]

BA-LETED! -jpmeyer[/color]

[ganandorf]

speaking as a powerless teenager who is currently unemployed, I personaly think that no proxies at all should be allowed. the people who have power have spent time and money getting them, so why should someone who doesnt want to have to put the same amount of effort but wants the same competativeness get that? I am happy that my local tournament scene does not allow any proxies whatsoever. some people have power, some dont. the people who have power win more often than not, but then they are also just plain better deckbuilders and players as well. I am planning on starting to invest in power, and I do not want my investment to lose value so that other people will be able to get the cards that I have worked so hard for for free. just my ($.o2)

[Arrg]

Weee, watching people going off on each other is fun.

Cut down on the pointless posts. Hint: not a good way to become a full member.

-Kerz[/b]

[Mage of Dreams]

Well if your going to allow proxies the 5 proxy standard seems to work well, at least out here in Cali.

If you want to change it just allow any card on the restricted list to be proxied.
At least you avoid the;
"Why can't I proxy card"x" from pre-legends even though it was reprinted in the last base set?"
or the
"Hey that card is below the "x" dollar cutoff according to Scrye."
"Yea, well according to SCG it makes it."
"Hey I just checked on Ebay and that card dropped in value your deck just became illegal 5 min. ago, JUDGE!!!"
discussions.

[Apollyon]

I'm also torn about proxy tournaments. On one hand, 5 or 10 proxies are good for the people who can't afford to buy Power. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm a college kid with a car. Unless you want to pay my insurance, gas, college, room, board, meals, occasional take-out, etc, don't start talking about people who need Power as "uncommitted to the game", because that's BS. I've been playing for about 8 years, I've just never had enough discretionary funds (Extra money) to afford to buy Power, Workshops, Drains, Bazaars, etc.

Unlimited proxy tournaments are a joke. There is no reason to play cardboard Magic at all if you don't want to own cards. If I were to go to one, I'd print out proxies for every card in my deck, and place them in my sleeves over the real cards.

No proxy has it's merits. I see the argument that if you want to play high-caliber Magic, you need to invest the time and money. However, I also have noticed one thing: Winning decks have Power. And the prize Power is usually sold for money. Decks with Power > Decks without Power.

Better deckbuilders and better players will win, I'm not denying that. But people shouldn't be punished for not having around 2500 USD hanging around to buy Power, IMO.

[brendan]

I vote Unlimited proxies.

It's not a cost factor for me. I can afford power just fine, although I have never, and will never, own any. I like playing T1, but am not willing to spend $300 a card in order to play the best decks.

I play budget, because there are no proxy tournaments in my area. I wish there were though.

[Meddling Mike]

Look guys, I'm really not liking this idea of a "list of proxyable cards" idea, it's just going to murder the price of anything that is on the list. Why throw down cash for a mox I'm NEVER going to need one to make my deck complete and basically totally neglects the concerns of people who want to keep their power's value sustained.

Mark and MTGplayer, please don't turn this thread into a personal argument. I"m not crazy about Mark's elitist attitude, some people just can't get power, expecially now that the price of power has jumped considerably in the last 9 months, and such a huge investment in power is going to keep away new players, which, in the long term is just terribly unhealthy for the format. At the same time, I don't think MTGplayer is farmiliar with Mark, so let's not jump to any conclusions on the matter of how he managed to acquire power. I have certainly known people that have mized plenty of deals, made good trades and good investments and acquired a full set of power under the same constrictions as Mark. But keep in mind Mark, as I said before, power isn't cheap, we're past the days of the 100 dollar mox and it doesn't look like they're coming back anytime soon.

[MarkPharaoh]

STOP.  I ALREADY EDITTED YOUR EARLIER POSTS BECAUSE YOU WERE FIGHTING.

WARNING ISSUED

-jpmeyer[/b]

[mtg_player_2004]

STOP.  I ALREADY EDITTED YOUR EARLIER POSTS BECAUSE YOU WERE FIGHTING.

WARNING ISSUED

-jpmeyer[/b]

[Zw4liki]

Although I voted for 10 proxies, looking back I'm pretty sure 5 is the right number. The problem with 10 proxies is that people can proxy the p10 (ok, thats pretty obvious). This means that there is no longer any desire to get power, other than the ever-present need to pimp out a deck. If I could proxy ten cards, I definitely wouldn't bother spending infinite hours trading exalted angels for arcbound ravagers and then ravagers for drains and then... (random example of slowly trading up to get power). And why would I, when I can proxy them? The desire to aquire power is what drives the t1 community, hence the turnout at tournaments for power. Having only a ruby an emerald and a timetwister (which its taken me about 5 months to get), it is difficult to make decks under 5 proxies. However, its this difficulty that keeps me attending power tournaments. Power --> better deck --> win more power --> even better deck and so forth (granted there are exceptions... I think Worse Than Fish was mentioned earlier up).

[firebird365]

I think 5 proxies is the way to go, with 10 being the most allowable. I think that proxies can help bring in players to the game (as other people have said) but having too many will devalue type 1 cards. The occasional 10+ is fine, but if the standard is higher, then everything will basically become worthless.

5 proxies means that people are forced to invest somewhat, but aren't completely hampered by monetary constraints.

[jpmeyer]

The difference between 5 and 10 proxies is like $1000.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Unlimited. I acquired all my power/workshops/drains/bazaars by working, and I wouldn't give a rats ass if I was at a tourney with unlimited proxies. Heck, I love it. Only then will you have agood, strong metagame. Seriously, I get bored playing scrub decks all day long. When I went to OH for the unlimited proxy tourney, I had A BLAST because every deck I played was a challenge.

[Klep]

Many of you have brought up the costs of the cards.  When exactly does a card go from affordable to expensive? $20? $50? $100? It's kind of relative isn't it?  I don't have much money now, so kicking out $30 for a playset of fetchlands is expensive to me.  And if cost if the fundamental quantifier of why cards should be proxied, instead of using a set as the cutoff, use a price.  I don't see why you can proxy a mana crypt and dual lands, and I can't proxy morphlings and cursed scrolls.

The point I (and presumably JP) was trying to make was that the older cards (i.e., Legends and prior) and promotional cards like Mana Crypt are the ones that are in general more expensive and come from sets with much smaller print runs than modern sets, and hence exponentially more difficult for people to acquire.  Thus a set-based restriction on proxies with a cut-off somewhere around Legends allows for people to build most any deck they choose, so long as they are dedicated enough to put most of it together with actual cards.

[MarkPharaoh]

PM him.
-Matt[/color]

[Meddling Mike]

JPmeyer and myself did the math going by the current ebay closed auction prices and came to the conclusion to make the control slaver build I have 5 proxy legal costs approximately $1,070, $900 more than it would to make the deck 10 proxy legal.
Think about it this way:
5 proxy legal
Proxied cards: Ancestral, Lotus, Time Walk, Ruby, Sapphire
Cards still to be unproxied to make the deck playable:

Pearl (found one at about 180 after shipping cost, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3180958721&category=49189)

Emerald (found one on ebay for about 200 after shipping costs, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3180958474&category=49189)

Jet (found one on for 275, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3180621655&category=49194)

Library (175, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3180343550&category=38295)

4xDrains (about 60 each for a total of 240, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3180332544&category=38302)

All this combined comes out to grand total of 1070 dollars, as compared to the ten proxy legal system.
Proxied cards: Ancestral, Timewalk, Pearl, Ruby, Jet, Emerald, Sapphire, Library, Lotus, 1xMana Drain

Unproxied cards:
3xDrains (a total of 180)

The difference in cost to me personally is 900 dollars in cards, which, I'm sorry, I don't have. I'm also not one of these miracle men who can walk into a ptq with a box full of 200 crap rares and come out with two moxes. I may however, be able to spend 180 dollars on Mana Drains in order to make my deck tourney legal and have a chance to actually win the power I need. I just wanted to post this as an example of how daunting making a non budget, 5 proxy legal deck is for unpowered players coming into this format and also for those of you who have this attitude of "suck it up and get a job and get yourself power just like I did" maybe this will help you understand that the way the price of power has risen it's not as easy as it once was.

[jpmeyer]

And $180 is a reasonable investment.  If you were playing Standard, that's probably as much as say, a mono-white control deck with lots of chase rares like Exalted Angel, Eternal Dragon, and Decree of Justice would cost.

[Kowal]

JPmeyer and myself did the math going by the current ebay closed auction prices and came to the conclusion to make the control slaver build I have 5 proxy legal costs approximately $1,070, $900 more than it would to make the deck 10 proxy legal.
Think about it this way:
5 proxy legal
Proxied cards: Ancestral, Lotus, Time Walk, Ruby, Sapphire
Cards still to be unproxied to make the deck playable:

Pearl (found one at about 180 after shipping cost, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3180958721&category=49189)

Emerald (found one on ebay for about 200 after shipping costs, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3180958474&category=49189)

Jet (found one on for 275, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3180621655&category=49194)

Library (175, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3180343550&category=38295)

4xDrains (about 60 each for a total of 240, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3180332544&category=38302)

All this combined comes out to grand total of 1070 dollars, as compared to the ten proxy legal system.
Proxied cards: Ancestral, Timewalk, Pearl, Ruby, Jet, Emerald, Sapphire, Library, Lotus, 1xMana Drain

Unproxied cards:
3xDrains (a total of 180)

The difference in cost to me personally is 900 dollars in cards, which, I'm sorry, I don't have. I'm also not one of these miracle men who can walk into a ptq with a box full of 200 crap rares and come out with two moxes. I may however, be able to spend 180 dollars on Mana Drains in order to make my deck tourney legal and have a chance to actually win the power I need. I just wanted to post this as an example of how daunting making a non budget, 5 proxy legal deck is for unpowered players coming into this format and also for those of you who have this attitude of "suck it up and get a job and get yourself power just like I did" maybe this will help you understand that the way the price of power has risen it's not as easy as it once was.

Who told you that you had to play Slavery?

That's the reason people like MuzzonoAmi works hard at making budget lists, and PhantomTapeWorm makes decklists that just so happen to run no more than five expensive cards.

I remember when we did zero proxies, and honestly, I rather liked it despite the fact that I didn't own anything back then.

[jpmeyer]

Back in my day, we had to walk five miles in the snow every day just to play in an unproxied tournament...and we LIKED it.

.. and back in my day, people made insightful posts.

-Kerz[/color]