[deck] Crushing Chamber-Mono Brown aggro

[rozetta]

I really don't see how you're going to see those one-of cards at a high enough frequency to make them worth inclusion, what with the deck having no tutors and a conditional draw engine. The deck can sometimes start drawing cards off Skullclamp, but only if it sees one _and_ has a genesis chamber out, or sees two to be able to draw off Ornithopters and Frogmites (although you can draw off a fresh Arcbound Crusher with one clamp in a pinch). Plus you'll need 6+ (depending on spheres) mana to cast the Duplicant which you won't reliably have without a CoW in play (against decks which would have a necessary target for Duplicant, which will inevitably be stripping your workshops).

[Purple Hat]

@Rozetta: Yeah, that's the problem with cutting Crucible for Duplicant.

@Tobi: Trust me Ravager is no where near as good as Plating in this deck.  The only explaination for adding Ravager is insufficient testing.  Sphere is NECESSARY.  Asside from that it's good.  I certainly would not cut anything from this deck to add Arcbound Ravagers.  

Duplicant is going in somewhere.  In testing Crucible is actually more conditional then Duplicant.
Crucible is good when:
You have strips
Your opponent has both Strips and Null Rod (Fish)

Duplicant is good when:
Your opponent has creatures
You don't have creatures

We've been looking at ways to up the creature count for a few weeks now.  I think we really need to get to 18 to optomize the deck.  Skullclamp and Crucible both underproform in this deck, and you are faced with the question of whether you play cards that you know aren't as good as they should be or do you solve major problems for the deck.  As I said.  Duplicant NEEDS to go in.  Auto-losing to Slaver and certain versions of 7/10 and Stax post bord is just dumb.  Those matchups should be good for us because their only threat to our deck is Welder.  Why allow them to cast Tinker for the win when they should be losing?

[MisterShark]

...what with the deck having no tutors and a conditional draw engine. The deck can sometimes start drawing cards off Skullclamp, but only if it sees one _and_ has a genesis chamber out, or sees two to be able to draw off Ornithopters and Frogmites (although you can draw off a fresh Arcbound Crusher with one clamp in a pinch).

The afore-mentioned Blinkmoth Nexus replacement for Mishra's Factory slots would help this 'conditional Skullclamp draw engine' problem.  
Keep the Crucibles in though, to recycle your Blinkys.

Besides, Cranial Plated Blinkys going unblocked > Cranial Plated Mishra's Factorys getting blocked by any ground-bound scrub.  

[Nibble]

-2 Crucible of Worlds
+2 Duplicant
...
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Skullclamp
+2 Duplicant

Do you really need two Duplicants? As you said, the maindeck is really tight, whereas the sideboard is pretty open right now.. I think one maindeck should be enough, seeing how Angel doesn't stop you from digging through your deck like mad. Sure, there's the possibility of Duplicant being the last card in your library, but I feel the chances of something like that happening are worth the extra maindeck slot. It's a pretty situational card, and having him in your opening hand can be a big burden, so one md and maybe one or two sb should be plenty.

Cutting one Skullclamp may seem ok, but it means cutting one part of your draw engine. The possibility of having 2 Skullclamps to draw cards off your Thopter or Frogmite will be lower, as well as having a Skullclamp when you have Genesis Chamber in play. I think that cutting an other redundant card is better, since your draw engine is still ok. Sphere of Resistance or Cranial Plating come to mind.

I definitely agree here, cutting a Clamp is risky. You want to see the first Clamp asap, and the second clamp is amazing as well. I can imagine going to 3 Clamps would create situations where the deck just dumps its hand and then putts along doing nothing spectacular much more often, which is not what you want.

The fourth Sphere is probably the least necessary card, I think.. you still have a decent chance to draw one, and can mull to find one if you know you're playing combo or something. I know the disruption is needed, but the other option seems to be Crucible, and Crucible-Waste is even more effective disruption in many cases.

The afore-mentioned Blinkmoth Nexus replacement for Mishra's Factory slots would help this 'conditional Skullclamp draw engine' problem.
Keep the Crucibles in though, to recycle your Blinkys.

Besides, Cranial Plated Blinkys going unblocked > Cranial Plated Mishra's Factorys getting blocked by any ground-bound scrub.

I have to agree, Nexus seems superior to Factory in many ways. It adds the Crucible usage of '{2}, your land drop: Draw two cards', which can be great if you're stuck in a rut. Crucible-Nexus can also greatly stunt the offense of Fish while your Plated Ornithopters are swinging. And of course, the evasion on offense is really handy. I just don't see what Factory does better, besides being able to trade with Rogue Elephant on defense.
:/


On a 'side' note (har har I'm funny), what's the sideboard looking like these days? The cards that were originally there were:

Chalice of the Void (necessary for combo)
Tormod's Crypt (Welder/Dragon, also I suppose could deny a 4cc player their Scryings)
Triskelion (Welders/Fish I assume)
Sundering Titan (you said you were testing these, how did they perform? it feels like they'd be hard to cast early enough, and too easily Drainable)

And my suggestions for the open slots:

Cursed Totem (long list of stuff that isn't good, Welders included)
Duplicant (so only one needs to be in maindeck)
Platinum Angel (why not run one or two just to give Fish, combo, and random aggro a headache?)
Sphere of Resistance (#4, removed from maindeck for Duplicant)

[Purple Hat]

I'm currently using something like this in my board:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Triskelion
2-3 Duplicant (depending on maindeck Duplicant)
3 Cursed Totem
0-1 Sphere of Resistence (depending on maindeck Duplicant
3 Secret tech for Gencon (sorry, but I'm holding this back for now)

In the past I have used Junu Stakes to good effect.  It is pretty good against welders and VERY good against fish, but I'm replacing those with the cursed totems.

Remember when sideboarding against Dragon that you have to take the Chambers out...I always almost forget to.

My personal list does include the change:
-1 Sphere
+1 Duplicant

but Jaris does not necessarily agree with cutting the 4th Sphere and I can see his point so I decided not to post that.

Jaris's sideboard differs from mine in the following manner:
-1 Duplicant
+1 Crucible of Worlds

We're still looking at the Blinkmoth Nexus situation.  Ideally we'd run a 4/2 configuration of this and Factories but which goes where is kind of iffy in that scenario.  Also where do you find an extra two slots?  I really like the Factories because they are better on their own against 4cc and Fish.  

It adds the Crucible usage of '{2}, your land drop: Draw two cards'

it's actually " , your land drop:Draw 2 cards" because the Nexus self activates.

I was thinking about it and I realized that the biggest play tip I can come up with for this deck is that you frequently want to self-activate your man-lands, whichever type you chose to use.  Tapping a Factory for mana that you use to animate the same Factory is a HUGE play for this deck.  It upps your artifact count for Plating and Affinity stuff.  It also means you only need to leave one land untapped if you fear R+R.  Nexus can of course do the same thing.  It's a wierd play at fist but it's frequently correct.

Hale

[JesseRiver]

I have been interested in mono-Brown decks for a while. I recently took this deck to power tourny and this is what I discovered.  Without genesis chamber a lone skullclamp isn't a good way to draw cards. Because of this I think the mishra's factories should be Blinkmoth nexi.  I Think one crusher could be cut due to its casting cost.(I played a game where my hand consisted of two crushers and one mana source after I parised to five.)

  I think duplicant would be a very good adition to deal with mox monkeys and plats. Sometimes crucible was insane and sometimes it was terrible.  I played with defense grid in the sideboard but it was terrible all day because in the control matchups you have too much speed for them to deal with. The grids will be replaced with cursed totem.  The fish matchup is very good due to your enforcer and platings.

[Purple Hat]

I Think one crusher could be cut due to its casting cost.(I played a game where my hand consisted of two crushers and one mana source after I parised to five.)

I think this problem is just something that can happen to any deck.  Every deck can lose to mana screw. It sucks but if you cut a Crusher you significantly reduce your chances of drawing one with cards in your hand.  I don't think this deck is more likely to get mana screwed than any other deck.  Also Crusher and Jar are the only things the deck plays that cost more then 3 generally.  5 cards that cost more then 3 with a manabase this powerful is definately not too much.  If you add Duplicant you still only have 6.  That's only 10% of the deck and between Workshops, Tombs, academy and artifact mana this deck can get to 4 mana without a problem in most games.

Like I said, the nexus thing is being looked at.

Hale

[policehq]

Here is my current list for the deck. I call it "Trash Compactor" (which could be a crushing chamber, I guess).

Trash Compactor
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Genesis Chamber
4 Skullclamp
1 Memory Jar
4 Arcbound Crusher
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Cranial Plating

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cursed Totem
3 Duplicant
4 Tormod's Crypt

Please tell me that your secret sideboard tech is Aelopile. I really want to see some Fallen Empires cards at GenCon.

I know that I'm going to get a lot of flack for running Arcbound Ravagers over Sphere of Resistance, but there are too many decks in my area that don't create auto-losses without the sphere. One [very] important thing to remember about Arcbound Ravager vs. Cranial Plating is that Arcbound Ravager also provides toughness to your key creatures in the early game, making them less susceptible to some forms of destruction. Again, it's a metagame call, as I see a lot of Fire/Ice, Grim Lavamancer, and Lightning Bolt.

I took this to a tournament and had an undefeated (games and matches) record, placing first. In one game, I attacked with a 153/46 Arcbound Crusher on the third turn with fifteen cards left in my library and plenty of fat backup for turn four. I'm not sure if I'll be able to take it to a tournament anymore because there was a new guy there that was playing mono-green control (a very hard match-up for this deck).

In the Blinkmoth Nexus vs. Mishra's Factory debate, I don't believe that 4/2 is really necessary (and, as everyone has said, where is the room?). Blinkmoth Nexus is clearly better because it has evasion and draw abilities with Skullclamp and Crucible of Worlds. You really need to run 3 Crucible of Worlds as well, because there are so many things that it helps. I'm trying to run 4. It is awesome for the Blinkmoth Nexus/Skullclamp draw engine, and you can produce insane amounts of mana by tapping a Tolarian Academy, wasting it, playing it, and tapping it again.

I am strongly considering cutting the Ancient Tombs for a fourth copy of Genesis Chamber and Crucible of Worlds. Since I added the 4 Blinkmoth Nexus, I never seem to have trouble with mana, and sometimes I have to mulligan because I draw 4-6 lands. Also, in the early turns, usually there is always a land I'd rather play (like a Blinkmoth Nexus, so it can attack with a plate on the next turn). Sometimes, though, Crucible of Worlds simply can't be played in the early turns (the ones that count the most) because all of your mana is going to other things. It is, however, my only form of disruption, so it's a tough call.

Barry

EDIT: After a few goldfish games, I've decided just to cut one Ancient Tomb in favor of Genesis Chamber. I may cut the other for a Grim Monolith, after testing out different options.

EDIT #2: I think "Gro-A-Cog" would also be a good name for the deck.

EDIT #3: Has anyone tested the possibility of playing Engineered Explosives in the sideboard against Chalice of the Void and moxen, to complete the Crucible/Strip lock?

[Purple Hat]

don't you have mana issues without Tombs?  Sure there are times when I want to play other lands first, but there are other times when I have a hand like: tomb, mox, crypt, crusher, froggy, enforcer, thopter.  I can keep that hand, but if you had either a Chamber or a Monolith in that slot it's basically unplayable.  It also seems like cutting the Tombs would make you extremely vlunerable to Fish.  

To be honest with you I know absolutely nothing about the mono-green control matchup.  I really don't test against random decks that could never survive in the type one metagame.

I think "Gro-A-Cog" would also be a good name for the deck.

no renaming my deck. :lol: Also this deck doesn't work like either Miracle Gro or GAT.  I'd say that the closest thing to it is probably 4 LED Madness simply because of the pure aggro speed that both decks strove for.

Moving on...Sphere of Resistence is necessary in the general type one metagame.  If you play in a meta where Mono-Green control is viable then obviously combo has not reared it's ugly head.  I suggest you play Dragon, Belcher or TPS if you want to win lots of tournaments in your meta.  Combo does bad things to the unprepared metagame.  I remember my first combo match.  I had no idea what was going on.  Then I lost on turn 2.

I'm sure the Nexus is great with the third Crucible but I'm not sure I can really afford to cut a Tomb for it as you have.

[policehq]

In testing, I've only had one opening hand (out of dozens) where I wished the extra Genesis Chamber or Grim Monolith were Ancient Tombs. The fourth Genesis Chamber really speeds up the deck, and I'm undecided yet whether the Grim Monolith stays.

Actually, the guy who played the mono-green control deck said that it was a hate deck against workshop-aggro. Rogue hate decks are to be expected anywhere you play. I don't know if the deck is "viable" (as I did not see him in the final rounds), but random decks happen.

Blinkmoth Nexus/Crucible/Skullclamp is not the only reason to play Blinkmoth Nexus. Blinkmoth Nexus/Cranial Plating is the main reason.

Barry

[Purple Hat]

I meant cut a tomb for the third Crucible.  The Blinkmoth's are obviously a 1 for 1 replacement for the 4 Factories.  You run 4 of one or 4 of the other.

Have you tested the reduction in the number of Tombs outside of goldfishing?  When ever I cut down to no Tombs I was always stuck being too reliant on my Workshops.  Fish and 4cc would destroy me.

Hale

EDIT: I was thinking about this some more and I think to run 4 chambers you need more creatures.  You really would need the 20 that your build runs, but I can see how if you had 20 it would make sense to run 4 chambers.

Hale

[policehq]

Have you tested the reduction in the number of Tombs outside of goldfishing?  When ever I cut down to no Tombs I was always stuck being too reliant on my Workshops.  Fish and 4cc would destroy me.

Hale

Yes, I played four games last night against my friend's U/R Phid with Crucible/5 Wastes. Like I said, I haven't decided on cutting Ancient Tombs completely in favor of the 1 Grim Monolith, but there have been instances where I was happier with the monolith. The fourth Genesis Chamber and third Crucible of Worlds absolutely stay, as they are necessary to my version of the deck.

Barry

[JesseRiver]

I would not cut the ancient tombs, because in my opinion the most fragile part of this deck is its mana base.  With more and more decks running wasteland due to crucible one waste could be gg's.  In my metagame fish, FCG and 4cc are very popular.  All of those decks run five strips and fish plays null rod.  I don't know what your metagame is like so I can't say your decisions are wrong.

  If you are going to play with ravager I would suggest Triskelion because he has great synergy with ravager and he takes out pests such as welder and mox monkey.

[TrixR4Kidz]

I just have one questionable thing about this deck still, you were doing test hands earlier, and I've noticed that you pride the deck on being fast, and swinging for alot very soon, then why exactly are the outdated sphere of resistance THAT valuable in this deck, they don't really hurt any deck that dramatically, why not just add more pieces to speed up the kill, or add some additional mana? just a thought.

[MisterShark]

why exactly are the outdated sphere of resistance THAT valuable in this deck, they don't really hurt any deck that dramatically, why not just add more pieces to speed up the kill, or add some additional mana? just a thought.

I'm sure Hale will want to chime in on this one, but it seems to me that Sphere could use a second look at this point now that Crucible/Strip has become that much more prominent.
Granted, Trinisphere is much more powerful, but it is incompatible with this mix of cards.
Sphere of Resistance on the other hand, doesn't hamper this decks speedy deployment much when it comes to it's Frogs or Enforcers, and it's gonna slow down your opponent just enough to hopefully start hammering his mana base with the afore-mentioned Crucible/Strip action.

Unless I miss my guess, Hale's idea with the Spheres of Resistance is to assist Crucible's timeliness with the disruption element.  Otherwise this deck's lack of viable disruption would leave it far too vulnerable.

[policehq]

I've tested the above deck (-2 Ancient Tomb, +1 Grim Monolith, +1 Genesis Chamber) MANY times on Magic Workstation against very good opponents playing Fish, Dragon, FCG, U/R Phid, U/G Fish, Stax, and Hulk, and I've not regretted cutting the tombs at all, nor have I found myself workshop-dependent.

I'm also considering Engineered Explosives more and more to compliment my Crucible/Strip locks. I think that Chalice of the Voids would be cut from the sideboard to put them in. Another important note is that explosives would kill opposing chalices that completely disrupt my deck.

Barry

[JDawg13]

I think there's been plenty of discussion on this topic already, but I'll echo what's been said.  The Spheres are necessary for the following reasons:

1) So the deck doesn't automatically lose to decks like Draw7 and TPS.  We don't goldfish as fast as those decks do, so we need to have a way to slow them down.

2) Classically, aggro has not been very viable because it cannot kill the opponent fast enough.  20 life is just too much against control.  The Spheres in this deck help out in that respect.  You drop your threats and then follow them up with a Sphere, and the control player should be dead before they get enough time to recover.

3) The alternatives to running Sphere are unacceptable.  Adding more Crucibles does not help against Tendrils combo, and against control, Sphere is just as effective, as we aim to be killing around turn 3, giving us only about one use out of our Crucible.  The other alternative, trying to speed the deck up, would be VERY difficult to do.  I don't see any real way to make it go much faster than it already does.

For these reasons Hale and I believe that the Spheres MUST remain in the deck no matter what.  We've discussed this at length, and the conclusion is, the Spheres remain.  Thanks for everyone's input on this topic.

[TrixR4Kidz]

1) you basically lose to tendrils preboard no matter what, spheres of resistance are nothing against TPS with all their artifact bouncers, TPS is starting to get around 3phere, so why is resistance gonna help anymore?

2) How does it slow control down that much? ok play all your threats, so they'll just pay 3 to balance it all away, or 2 to swords your crusher... it doesn't affect a morph up ability of an angel, just the original morph cost... I disagree with this reasoning as well.

3) spheres don't make the deck any faster, so the point to add another crucible and a duplicant isn't to "speed the deck up" it's to give it a little more stability and answers, you do realize your early threats can get answered....when your in top deck mode, I don't think you want to draw a sphere of resistance...

[goober]

1) you basically lose to tendrils preboard no matter what, spheres of resistance are nothing against TPS with all their artifact bouncers, TPS is starting to get around 3phere, so why is resistance gonna help anymore?

Not true, Sphere slows them down enough for us to win.  This deck has a fast  goldfish, and throwing out a sphere brings Tendril's speed down to slower than us.  Also, preboard you can goldfish them and hope they get one of those "I lose" hands, which is actually pretty common.

2) How does it slow control down that much? ok play all your threats, so they'll just pay 3 to balance it all away, or 2 to swords your crusher... it doesn't affect a morph up ability of an angel, just the original morph cost... I disagree with this reasoning as well.

It sets them back a turn, what is bad about that.  Paying 3 to Balance or 2 to Swords is a lot better than them paying 2 and 1.  Also swords isn't that bad for us becuase Plating will just go onto someone else.  Balance will crap all over their hand, so we can go into topdeck most, which isn't too shabby.  Combine that with the restrictedness of Balance, meaning they will have to Tutor for it if they want it, making it effectively cost 2 more.

3) spheres don't make the deck any faster, so the point to add another crucible and a duplicant isn't to "speed the deck up" it's to give it a little more stability and answers, you do realize your early threats can get answered....when your in top deck mode, I don't think you want to draw a sphere of resistance...

Our threats can be answered, unless we drop a Sphere to slow them down enough so they won't be alive when they can.  This is actually the best argument for Sphere, because it means they can't answer it.  Cutting Sphere means they will recover from your origonal onslaught.

In topdeck mode I don't want to hit a Anceint Tomb, or Workshop either.  Also, I do want to see it more than land or Crucible, because it will mean they will need to topdeck land and cards, not just cards.  Slow them down some so I can topdeck more.  It isn't as nice as it is to see a threat, but it is better than land, but we can't cut them either.

[MisterShark]

ok play all your threats, so they'll just pay 3 to balance it all away, or 2 to swords your crusher... it doesn't affect a morph up ability of an angel, just the original morph cost... I disagree with this reasoning as well.

I know your main focus with the above rebuttal was aimed at the effect Sphere has on 4cC's ability to quickly and efficiently resolve Balance, but since you mentioned Balance...  
It's really not a concern.  When facing a 4cC opponent, a wise Crushing Chamber player will be sure to equip one of his beasts with Skullclamp before EOT.  When the Skullclamped creature hits the dirt after being Balanced away, the redundancy of the deck's creature base will quite likely yield a creature to play next turn in the Skullclamp-drawn cards.  This creature along with the Chamber-generated Myr Token sets the stage for the next wave of attackers and the fresh Skullclamp fodder to replenish your hand.  Failing to draw a creature card, you'll hopefully have a Blinkmoth Nexus (which slipped under the Balance radar) to clamp, and then recur via a Crucible.  All the while, your opponent had to likely dump his hand to his own Balance since yours would have been empty by that turn 2 or 3 (turn 3, thanks to the time bought for us by our Sphere, of course).

[policehq]

(turn 3, thanks to the time bought for us by our Sphere, of course, and barring any earlier moxen or other mana accelerants played that game, of course).

While I do agree with the fact that your hand is dumped out by turn 3 (even if you decide to go recurring strips on turn 1 instead of fatty), I don't think you're looking at the creature ratio accurately enough. The decks that Jaris and Purple Hat are using run 16 creatures (I believe), thus making every two draws less likely to have a creature than you would expect.

Besides, I'm not even sure if they're set on Blinkmoth Nexus, even though it's an obvious choice.

Barry

[TrixR4Kidz]

I don't think a sphere is going to slow down a player in "top deck mode", usually when the game goes into top deck mode there is enough mana to cast whatever it is you pull off the top of your library...

Yea you can hope for a random "I lose hand" by tendrils decks, but can't you just hope for those hands without spheres?

spheres are  not that hard to deal with playing tendrils now a days, they just rebuild, or hurlky's, and then combo off, sphere's protection isn't THAT good against it, the card in general is just a bad card...but ok, keep scooping to to platinum angel....

[policehq]

I've actually made room for two Duplicants maindeck, but until after Dragon Con, I'm not going to say how. All I'll say is really test out different ideas with your mana base.

Barry

EDIT: And I play Arcbound Ravagers over Sphere of Resistance, to go along with everyone that's saying to speed up the deck instead of slow the opponent down. Arcbound Ravager works wonders in the early game for protecting your key creatures.

[JDawg13]

I don't think you're looking at the creature ratio accurately enough. The decks that Jaris and Purple Hat are using run 16 creatures (I believe), thus making every two draws less likely to have a creature than you would expect.

One of the first things we noticed in testing was that an opposing 4cC player casting Balance is almost always a winning proposition for us.  Sure, we lose our creatures, but they lose the majority of their hand, if not all of it, leaving us in a much better position to win than they.  The odds of drawing another threat soon after the Balance are good enough to make it not as much of a problem as you may think.

Besides, I'm not even sure if they're set on Blinkmoth Nexus, even though it's an obvious choice.

Yes, we are.  Thanks.

[goober]

I don't think a sphere is going to slow down a player in "top deck mode", usually when the game goes into top deck mode there is enough mana to cast whatever it is you pull off the top of your library...

With this deck you need to go into topdeck mode fast, or you are dead.  If you wait till we both have 4 or 5 mana then you are probably already dead.  You need to clear our board faster than that.  I never said that Sphere was something you like to see, but that it is still better than a land.

Yea you can hope for a random "I lose hand" by tendrils decks, but can't you just hope for those hands without spheres?

I said combine the times you will lay a Sphere down and then win before they go off, along with the times you will just goldfish faster than them, as well as the times they randomly lose, and it isn't horrible.  You lose the Sphere part of that, which is the biggest part.

spheres are not that hard to deal with playing tendrils now a days, they just rebuild, or hurlky's, and then combo off, sphere's protection isn't THAT good against it, the card in general is just a bad card...but ok, keep scooping to to platinum angel....

Yes it can deal with it, but they need to tutor for it or wait to draw it.  It isn't like they run 4 of maindeck.  That means it will take time, and waste tutors.  The slowdown to them will give you time to win, where not running Sphere will not.

What did you do to stop scooping to Angel?  Sphere makes it harder for them to get the Angel into play.  That comment seems quite random.  Every eck scoops to certain situations, but as long as they are rare it is ok.  Platinum Angel is rare enough to allow scooping to.  All that aside, we don't seeng as we run maindeck Dup, and sideboard 2-3 more depending on the build.

Ravager

I perfer to keep my threats around, and have them pump any creature by 1 then to have them die and still pump them by 1.  Crabial Plating and Ravager is dissynergy city.  Combine that with the fact there is not much I want to sacrifice.  Lose my manabase, my engine, or my threats.  None of those seems to good.  I'll admit Factroy+Skullclamp+Ravager+Crucible is pretty sexy, even withour the Clamp, but Blinkmoth doesn't allow that trick.  And 1/1 each turn is akin to Energy Chamber, which is horrible.  Ravager may speed the deck up, but Sphere makes it win more often.  It is a boon in a lot of matchups.  

Pure aggro doesn't work, if you hate Sphere find another form of disruption.

[Purple Hat]

Ok, I've been away from my computer for a day and I come back to this.    

Here's how I see this debate:  Is Crucible of Worlds/Strips enough disruption for this deck or do you need something more.  

Here is the problem:  Everyone and their mother plays Crucibles.  Crucible effectively ends the utility of the Crucible/Strip Lock.  So Crucibles probably aren't enough on their own.

why exactly are the outdated sphere of resistance THAT valuable in this deck, they don't really hurt any deck that dramatically, why not just add more pieces to speed up the kill, or add some additional mana? just a thought.

1)It turns Crucible/Strip into a hard lock.
2)It makes players take an extra turn to stop our pressure.
3)It doesn't slow us down the way Trinisphere does.
4)It slows TPS and Draw7 and Death Long down more then one turn and it virtually kills Belcher.
5)Sphere is just as good, if not better then 3sphere against certain matchups (decks that play Trinisphere maindeck).

@Balance:
We play our hand.  They balance our threats, discarding their hand.  How many control players do YOU know who like to discard their hand?  If we go to top deck mode we have a pretty good chance to draw one of the 21 threats in our deck before they draw one of the 3-4 in theirs, assuming they didn't discard one, and kill us with it.

@Storm Combo:
Goober, Jaris and I are all experienced storm combo players.  Trust us.  Sphere is a pain in the ass.


@policehq:
If your mana base is: artifacts, Workshops, Waste/Strip, Academy, Nexi how are you not reliant on Workshops against Fish for example? Also how do you cast Grim Monolith on turn one without either Workshop or Tomb?  Are you just assuming you are going to have a Mox?

How does Ravager protect your creatures in the early game from anything but Mutation?  I mentioned that it's better vs. Mutation, but also you really never want to be saccing stuff in this deck.  In game one you frequently have to worry about opposing Welders so you can't really let your creatures go to the yard, in games 2 and 3 you still have the issue of not wanting to sac your engine, your threats or your mana base.  Ravager is good in corner cases.  It is the weakest creature in the deck where played by a wide margin.  It doesn't speed you up, it costs mana, it just isn't good.

@ Nexus:
Yeah, we switched it.  But we tested it first for quite some time.  Factories ARE better against some things but overall Nexus got the nod.

Hale

[policehq]

I can understand the argument that aggro, in the form of Fish or U/G madness, needs disruption because "20 life is just too much," but when you're normally winning on turn 3...

I painfully have to reiterate the most important point about Arcbound Ravager. What happens if your Arcbound Crusher or 9/2 Ornithopter gets an early Lightning Bolt or Fire/Ice? Arcbound Ravager and Cranial Plating are not redundant. In place of +1/+0, you get +1/+1 for that artifact, plus whatever other counters were on Arcbound Ravager. You don't have to "go all out" like you do in Type 2, sacrificing everything, just enough to keep your threat around. After all,

I perfer to keep my threats around

It is also always nice when you're losing a creature in combat, to Swords to Plowshares, Rack and Ruin, Oxidize, etc. to sacrifice it for +1/+1, which will eventually be transferred to a threat.

Finally, what happens if you don't draw Cranial Plating? Arcbound Ravager can speed your kill turn up by one in such instances. Again, I never have to lose my entire board; I just have to sacrifice enough to make it count. When there are eight artifacts on the board, three of them attacking for ten, when the opponent is at ten life with a blocker, it's really nice to have Arcbound Ravager.

The only problem with Arcbound Ravager is if you happen to topdeck him on the turn you are being controlled by Mindslaver. Of course, it is quite obvious to sacrifice him and any other troubling artifacts before the end of their turn. Games two and three (if needed), Arcbound Ravager comes out for Cursed Totem, and the Goblin Welder problem goes away.

If your mana base is: artifacts, Workshops, Waste/Strip, Academy, Nexi how are you not reliant on Workshops against Fish for example? Also how do you cast Grim Monolith on turn one without either Workshop or Tomb? Are you just assuming you are going to have a Mox?

Eh, all I can say is that testing has proven my statements, and that is enough for me. The only times that I wanted an Ancient Tomb in place of Grim Monolith were when it was tapped and I was going nuts with Skullclamp/Genesis Chamber, but usually at that point it's just to add 20+ counters to Arcbound Crusher or 20+ power to a creature equipped with Cranial Plating.

I often get hands without land at all that are playable because of Grim Monolith.

On top of that, Workshop + Grim Monolith is nearly as good as Workshop + Mox. This means that you get a first turn Arcbound Crusher instead of on the second turn with two damage from Ancient Tomb and a possible mana burn.

Grim Monolith may yet come out for a Phyrexian Tower. It's really conditional, but there are games where that instant equip will cost the opponent a win. Only testing can be done, I suppose.

One point about Sphere of Resistance: Against combo it is only helpful if you are going first and draw one in your opening hand. I understand that you can mulligan aggressively to find one, but only in an instance where you know you're playing combo would you do that. In such instances, it is normally game two, where your sideboard is quite capable of ruining their combo.

As an endnote, I'd just like to say that none of my testing has been goldfishing, but all of it has been against capable opponents (except for the random occasional noob that starts the game out with a 10,000/10,000 "bird" token into play) on Magic Workstation.

When I've played matches against Goblin Charbelcher and Draw-7, my sideboard has ALWAYS been enough to win games two and three. The point is to mulligan aggressively.

I've never lost to a control deck, either (in matches), so I'm not getting the point about slowing them down.

Barry

EDIT: I would like to offer a different method of early disruption: Tangle Wire. It would work best in my deck with twenty creatures and four Genesis Chambers, giving me ample things to tap during the turns where they are completely tapped out, and I go in for the win. Belcher and TPS are still going to lose their artifact acceleration and lands, and they will not be able to go off during the three turns that go by while you swing. Space is stupidly tight in all of these decks, but I'd be way more interested in trying Tangle Wire than Sphere of Resistance. TPS is playing Hurkyll's Recall and/or Rebuild maindeck, and they get around it easily.

[Purple Hat]

I'm also considering Engineered Explosives more and more to compliment my Crucible/Strip locks. I think that Chalice of the Voids would be cut from the sideboard to put them in. Another important note is that explosives would kill opposing chalices that completely disrupt my deck

If you're cutting Chalices and you don't even board Sphere, how does your sideboard wreck combo?  I don't get it.  What do you do?  Side in explosives against Belcher and hope to destroy all the mana they EVER play and hope they don't draw a source?  I just don't see how with a sideboard of:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cursed Totem
3 Duplicant
4 Tormod's Crypt

If you cut the Chalices for Explosives how do you have anything left to side in against combo decks that aren't Dragon.  Do they simply not exist in your meta?  I understand that Belcher and Storm are less stable then Dragon, but they are also the combo decks that present real problems for this deck.  Dragon is only marginally faster then this type of deck.  If you can hold them back for one turn you can beat them.  Storm and Belcher are both more then a full turn faster then we are.  Just ignoring them as a deck building concept seems to me to be fundimentally flawed.

I think the main difference between our decks is basically that I play against combo more then you do.  If I didn't I think I'd like a lot of your ideas better then I do.

Hale

[policehq]

On Magic Workstation, the metagame is everything. I've played dozens of times with decks that use Sphere of Resistance, and I always meet a Rebuild/Go-off turn, especially if I go second.

I'm still trying out Tangle Wires, since there are so many targets this deck can produce (equipment, Crucible, Myr tokens, Tangle Wire itself, etc.), and with Tangle Wires, I definitely have to include Ancient Tomb back into the maindeck.

(As a side note, I apologize for belittling Purple Hat by pointing out his spelling error. As he has proven in the creation of his decklist and his arguments in this forum, he is an extremely intelligent person, and not to be flamed. A public attack merits a public apology.)

Barry

[Vegeta2711]

After testing of this deck and variants, I've found the weakest threats in the deck were actually the Crusher's themselves. Oftentimes even when played on turn 1 or 2, they didn't do much more than a Juggernaut would and in some cases less. Plating and Ravager were almost always better threats and Crusher seemed more and more like a 'cute' card. Sort of like Crucible, but even that proved slightly more useful.