[deck] Crushing Chamber-Mono Brown aggro

[Purple Hat]

Ok, people keep saying that Slaver is game ending vs this deck.  I don't understand that at all.  Unless you leave a Ravager in play when they slave you, in which case you're dumb, Slaver can't touch you.  They could strip your lands some...but against this deck mindslaver is a 10 mana Time Walk with the exception of the topdecked Ravager.  Since this deck functions fine without the Ravagers you can just side them out for Cursed Totems vs Slaver and then their slavers are completely useless.  Time Walk isn't a good card at 10 mana.  What are people doing to you with Mindslaver that's really hurting you?

Hale

[Frappie]

Hale,
I played the deck for the first time on saturday. I played poorly but after some testing realized that the ancient tombs while being good are generally another way that slaver can kill you. After thinking about how this could be circumvented, I came up with city of traitors. It may not be the better than Ancient tomb but in a slaver heavy area it would perform a bit better. Plus with the addition of CoW in the main the drawback of it dosnt really hurt that bad.

[wizmentor]

I REALLY think you guys should consider

Ankh of Mishra       Artifact       2      
Whenever a land comes into play, Ankh of Mishra deals 2 damage to that land's controller.

Consider:
1)   Don't need to attack to win!
2)   Makes Crucible (which is big now) really ineffective against you.
3)   Makes Dragon Cry
4)   Good synergy with strips, Froggys, Enforcers, Plating...
5)   Makes Fetchlands Cry (5 damage to play!)

I really think Ankh Crusher is the way to go, at least in the sb if you
don't use it in the main.

[Kowal]

That's a terrible idea.  It also makes your crucible suck, and considering you have a tendency to run Ancient Tomb, it gives every opponent a really good head start on killing you.

[MisterShark]

I am also considering cutting Lion's Eye Diamond for a fourth Ancient Tomb if Mono-Blue becomes popular. Games two and three are nightmares against that deck.

Can you specify what sideboard cards in particular gave you the biggest trouble from S.Blue?
Cause if your about to say Energy Flux, then I'm glad to hear that I've got company.  As I mentioned in a reply earlier on in this thread, I got absolutely housed by a Fish opponent when he dropped duel 2-3 Energy Flux before I could squeak out a CotV to stop it.  Workshop's suck when it comes to paying newly imposed upkeep costs when trapped under Flux

And don't think you can just wrap up the game by turn three, following the Flux drop by paying a Crusher's upkeep cost for a turn as your Moxes, Sol Ring, Crypt, Vault, etc drop out of existance; problem is, you don't have anything threatening on the board at that point because your Fish/SemennenBlue opponent didn't permit you to have one.

This inability to effectively and reliably deal with a sideboard card that seems to be becoming more prevalent (Energy Flux), at least in my play circle, has caused me to go the 3-color RAffinity route more often than Crusher.  I had played both Crushing Chamber and the aforementioned Affinity deck (tweaked by myself) and found myself with more valid, solid answers that I can include in my sideboard to avoid rolling over to Flux, Welders and assorted other nasties that come along.
That and the fact that I'm able to play a bunch of draw-7s in the deck, have made it much faster for me.

[policehq]

Propaganda + Energy Flux = 4 mana for your threats. That, added with Back To Basics = no threats.

I'm really about to splash red for eight blasts.

Barry

[policehq]

Ok, people keep saying that Slaver is game ending vs this deck.  I don't understand that at all.  Unless you leave a Ravager in play when they slave you, in which case you're dumb, Slaver can't touch you.  They could strip your lands some...but against this deck mindslaver is a 10 mana Time Walk with the exception of the topdecked Ravager.  Since this deck functions fine without the Ravagers you can just side them out for Cursed Totems vs Slaver and then their slavers are completely useless.  Time Walk isn't a good card at 10 mana.  What are people doing to you with Mindslaver that's really hurting you?

Hale

Game 1 - They're recurring Mindslaver. That's a loss. Games two and three, you could bring in Cursed Totem to avoid Goblin Welder's ability, or you could bring in Damping Matrix to prevent any problems with Mindslaver, and having Damping Matrix also prevents losses from Zuran Orb/Fastbond/Crucible of Worlds, Goblin Charbelcher, and Illusionary Mask.

Barry

[Comrade]

well, i think smemmen blue will keep the # of wastelands in competitive decks in check.

[goober]

well, i think smemmen blue will keep the # of wastelands in competitive decks in check.

I think every other deck in the format will keep the # of wastes at 5.

[brianb]

well, i think smemmen blue will keep the # of wastelands in competitive decks in check.

Even mono-U runs a library of alexandria that you might need an answer for.  And fast decks can sometimes use wastelands on mono-U's wastes/strip to prolong the early/mid game a bit.

[ChrisTJs27]

I playtested a few games with Control Slaver Vs. Crusher and only won the games in which Crusher got a slow or poor start. Sphere of Resistance was huge and I was almost always dead before I could even attempt to Slave them.

I had just picked up the deck however and perhaps I spent to much time attempting to set up the ideal situation to Slave, unsure.

Still, Crusher is a really fast aggro deck that is able to place enough presser on Slaver that Slaver either needs to "go off" or lose IMO.

[policehq]

Could Metalworker be tested as an answer for Energy Flux?

Barry

[Comrade]

i think so. i think metalworker might be the key to holding this deck together in case you dont get your way with crucible.

ps ive been playing this deck a lot on magic workstation but i cant find opponents who are very good. either that, or they play obsolete decks. or a combination of the two. anyone have any advice for finding good magic workstation opponents

[MisterShark]

Could Metalworker be tested as an answer for Energy Flux?

Barry

I don't think this deck wants you to hold a bunch of cards in hand.  Any artifact kept in hand stunts Crusher's growth.
This deck needs to be explosive and play everything possible, not play a watch and wait game.

[Comrade]

Well, as I've been testing the deck, a resolved Energy Flux or Back to Basics = good game. So I think Metalworker is definitely an answer since you can use it to pay for Energy Flux's upkeep or B2B emergency mana.

Also, policehq mentioned running 4x REB and 4x Pyroblast. I was thinking about it this morning and I think this might be a great idea. But somehow I don't know how you will fit them in. I think Myr Enforcers can be dropped because I noticed they are a little slow. Basically if I have enough artifacts to put out a cheap Myr Enforcer I am winning or about to win anyways due to Cranial Plating damage.

So I'm entering the land of horrible speculation here. Let's see. I have a lot of crazy ideas here and feel free to shoot me down...

(possible main deck modification...)
----------
Drop 4 Myr Enforcer for 4 basic mountain (?)
Drop 3 Mox (white,green,black) for 2 Paradise Mantle (!!),  1 Lotus Petal (?)
----------
The hope... Basic mountains will grant some resiliency to cruciblewasteland if you dont get yours out in time... Mountains will allow us to cast Pyroblast and REB... Paradise mantle will turn 1/1 myr tokens into birds of paradise, and add to affinity count... Lotus petal will also help sneak a REB or Pyroblast out if they resolve B2B...
-----
Sideboard, 4 Red Elemental Blast, 4 Pyroblast, Welder hate (Stakes, Tormod Crypt)
-----

Ok, let's say your playing Smemmen blue. I know some people will disagree with me but personally I think this is probably the best deck in the field right now overall... Game 1, maybe you win, maybe not.  Ok, time to sideboard. You know 4x energy flux and propaganda will be coming in. So,

Side out:
2x crucible (they're useless against Smemen blue I think. If they can use LOA they are going to beat you anyways)
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
1x memory jar(?)  - giving smemmenU cards = horrible idea...?

Side in:
4x REB
4X Pyroblast

Comments: 7 mana sources already in the main deck ready to play REB/PB which both cost R
I havent actually tried any of this yet....

[Purple Hat]

HOW DOES METALWORKER HELP AGAINST ENERGY FLUX?

I realize I'm not supposed to shout, but seriously, that's how bad an idea I think that is.  Sorry for shouting, but if you have enough artifacts in play to want to use a metalworker to support them how do you have enough artifacts in your hand to pay for them with the metalworker?  This deck doesn't draw many cards on turns on which it's not going off, so how do you have both?  If you're going off you probably have enough mana.  Ironworks is VASTLY superior for this, I haven't actually looked at it, but Ironworks would let you save half your artifacts vs flux by sacing the other half.  Probably an ok idea to try out.  It could be a good sideboard option with the rise in popularity of Energy Flux recently to combat the rise of Workshop.


@ Jar Vs. Smennen Blue:  How are you letting them draw cards?  They can use any counters they draw in the jar hand...that turn and never again.  They can draw cards into their jar hand and mill themselves, they can counter your stuff til you break through the counter wall.  Then they go back to their old hand.  You're far more likely to draw probelmatic cards off jar then they are to draw useful things, since the only thing they can cast off their jar hand is Brainstorm to save stuff or counters.

@removing moxen for conditional mana sources and lotus petal:
Moxen let you do stuff when you don't have a creature in play and can be used to equip stuff...multiple times, petal and the other equipment thing can't.  This idea is terrible.

@metalworker in general: This deck should play it's whole hand on one of the first three turns anyway, adding metalworker just makes you look dumb when he gets oxidized and you realize you could have played your hand on turn 2 or 3 anyway.

Hale

[Comrade]

1. Well, here was the plan. I need to resolve a metalworker against Smemmen blue on turn 1 via either work shop, mox-tomb, mox-mox-land, or lotus [all seem viable enough to me]. Then, I play whatever threats I can for that first turn, and then start playing crusher and chamber and what have you. When the INEVITABLE B2B/Flux comes down I will have the hero of the day, Metal Worker, there to save me because I will have extra mana to spend for the upkeep. Then hopefully I will be able to resolve a REB/Pyroblast and take out the Flux/B2B.

2. The number of times I've "gone off" with Jar has been kind of low. usually I tended to draw lots of ueselss things, like excess Wastelands, Crucibles, that went to the graveyard...

I'd like to up the number of red cards appearing in the sideboard. After discussing this with a fellow Mana Drain reader [don't know if he posts here] he pointed out  that one of the initial premises behind the deck, which is immunity to Null Rod, is not true. Null rod will cancel out being able to equip Cranial Plating (one of the kills) and in addition will cancel out Skullclamp (the draw engine). In additional Chalice for 2 will stop Cranial Plating and Genesis Chamber, two key cards in this deck.

So I'm thinking this deck needs red primarily for the metagame. I realize making it more flexible for the metagame will slow it down a little, but the problem is the field is currently full of Workshop hate and this deck can't just rely on winning fast all the time. I'd like an out if they resolve a B2B/Flux/Chalice. So I propose the following sideboard, with quantities of the cards being undecided:

U Red Elemental Blast
V  Pyroblast
W  Rack and Ruin (to kill Null rod & Chalice)
X Juntu Stakes   (to stop Fish and Welder)
Y  Tormod Crypt  (to stop graveyard reliant decks, which iis probably 80% + of T1?)
Z Metal worker

[goober]

Metal Worker, there to save me because I will have extra mana to spend for the upkeep.

So your plan versus smmenen blue is to not play threats, and instead hold them in your hand for the whole game?

[Comrade]

Threats work better when you have mana to play them.  

[policehq]

Metal Worker, there to save me because I will have extra mana to spend for the upkeep.

So your plan versus smmenen blue is to not play threats, and instead hold them in your hand for the whole game?

And yours (and Hale's) is to dump out your hand on turn 1 and lose all of the cards on turn three to Energy Flux. Both seem unsound.

Barry

[Purple Hat]

I'm telling you, try ironworks against flux.  It's good, it lets you sac artifacts to save the important ones.

but asside from that i don't think this deck is optimal right now.  The metagame shift has made it less good then it was in the Fish meta.  I think when the time is right it will rise again but I'm not takeing it to waterbury.

Hale

[NastyNate]

Perhaps a shift back to a partially colored mana base may be the solution that this deck needs. I've never liked the mono-brown side board options.
By adding red the deck becomes more like Stacker, which could be okay, but more importantly it gives you access to superior options for games 2 and 3.

BTW, Hale, good luck at Waterbury

Nate

[Mind_under_Matter]

Today I played crusher in a medium sized event to less than spectacular results. I hate to say it, but it's getting caught in the hate, whether it be intentional or not. Another thing that I may just blame on my exhaustion is that regardless of how hard I tried I couldn't seem to pull more than two or three creatures in a game. Not nearly enough to stand up to a field where Rack and Ruin are dominant.

[Comrade]

Yeah. I ran crushing chamber and dropped after I went 1-4 at the mana drain open today at waterbury. Some rounds I won 1 game out of 3 but couldnt get the final damage in I needed to win. I came very close alot.  I think this deck needs Ravagers in the sideboard for sure. I want even more threats to run now.  Definitely 4x tormod crypt there. Almost every deck was carbon copy welder/tinker for darksteel colossus or pentavus.

[Mind_under_Matter]

I ran the Ravs main and still felt like my threat count was low. The Crypts are a must. There are just so many decks that use graveyard recursion of some sort not to have four in the board. My biggest desire all day was for a way to deal with a Welder -now-, and if that means MD slots or SB I can't keep playing Crusher if I can't deal with them.

[Mind_under_Matter]

I ran the Ravs main and still felt like my threat count was low. The Crypts are a must. There are just so many decks that use graveyard recursion of some sort not to have four in the board. My biggest desire all day was for a way to deal with a Welder -now-, and if that means MD slots or SB I can't keep playing Crusher if I can't deal with them.

[serialjester]

Cursed Totem. Shuts down everything in Fish, Welders, Shamans, Dragon combo creatures, Karn, Pentavus, Tog, Siege Gang, Sharpshooter, and anything else problematic. Aggro Workshop decks get owned by anything with an activated ability, so why give them an out?

[JDawg13]

Cursed Totem. Shuts down everything in Fish, Welders, Shamans, Dragon combo creatures, Karn, Pentavus, Tog, Siege Gang, Sharpshooter, and anything else problematic. Aggro Workshop decks get owned by anything with an activated ability, so why give them an out?

Actually, Cursed Totem is in the latest build's sideboard.  It's golden in every situation where you might need it, but it shuts off your own Ravagers, forcing you to side them out when you bring in the Totems.  It's usually for the better, but I always hate losing threats.

Re: Everyone that's been posting less than amazing results.

As Hale stated recently, the deck does in fact get caught in much of the hate aimed at the current metagame.  With Fish on the decline and Welder decks on the rise, it isn't as amazing as it could be.  Hale and I are working on some major overhauls to rectify this situation, but I'm not yet sure what to expect of them.

[Purple Hat]

Hale and I are working on some major overhauls to rectify this situation, but I'm not yet sure what to expect of them.

You guys will just basically have to forgive us for this.  I told you all that the original version of this deck concept just wasn't that good right now.  Jaris and I have some new ideas that make this thing even better and actually make it resistant to the ubiquitous hate for all things artifact in type one right now.  If it works beyond goldfishing we'll let you guys in on the secrets.  Then agian if it works it'll be posted in a tournament report somewhere...

Hale

[Comrade]

I think this deck has a lot of potential. Its pretty easy to get a 10/2 ornithopter up and running by turn 2 or a 5/5 crusher on turn 1. It just has to deal with welders.

PS, When I ran this deck at Waterbury, three individual people all had to read Arcbound Crusher to see what it did. I really found that funny especially when it beat them 1 game out of 3. I don't know what they sided in - I never saw I sideboarded card of theres in all 5 games.