[Discussion] Adapting Tog to win in this metagame.

[Negator13]

Regarding the issue of the [color of] artifact removal, Hurkyll's Recall is incredibly strong vs. Workshop Aggro and Stax, better even IMO than Rack and Ruin because it bypasses Welders. Maybe this will work in the sideboard instead of Rack and Ruin or Oxidize. I run a couple in my Titan's board in leiu of R+R's myself.

[Wildthing]

The UBr versions run actually 1 hurklys recall in ther sideborads but I haven´t seen any build with flametongue kavu in the side, Im not saying its a bad choice but theres not much space for him. I would play obligatory:
2 Rack and ruin
1 Fling
2 Red elemental blast
1 Fact of fiction
1 Gush
1 Snuff out
1 Firestorm
1 Shatering pulse (really amazing!!)
So you have 5 slots for explosives, hurkly´s recall, misdirection, stifle, rushing river, Fire/ice, Blue elemental blast and maybe vampiric

You cant play 4 duress, 4 mana leak, 4 mana drain and 4 fow, mana leak are good because they can be played in turn 1 with a moxe but theres not much sinergy with duress. I would chose duress because It is easier to cast and lets me choose.

When I am facing workshops decks I only want to remove their trinispheres and maybe tangle wires, crucibles are not a big issue, you can build a very stable mana base and answer them later with cunnings for R&R

[effang]

First of all, Duress if fucking money against pretty much everything in the format. If everybody is so worried about Trinisphere, then you should DEFINITELY be playing 4 Duresses. If you go first, you're going to snag their Trinisphere or other important card. If you don't, you've probably got to mulligan into a Force of Will. Duress at least gives you better odds of combating problematic cards like that, not to mention it's pure butter in the mirror.

====
So, who actually does this? I'm new, no kidding, but I really do not ever see anybody mulling into a force, or mulling into anything specific (aside from combo.) Maybe I'm blind, maybe I'm not playing the right way, but if my hand is strong w.out FoW, how likely is somebody actually going to dump it in the hope of mulling into a force?

Also, why do people keep brining up berserk for the aggro match? Isn't berserk used in all cases? How are you going to kill somebody not using berserk...just attack for 10 turns?! Crazy...

Unless you're saying by your 3-4th attack you'll have enough in the grave and hand to smash...(~20 in grave, 4-5 in hand)

[Purple Hat]

There are certainly times when mull into force is an important play, but I wouldn't go overboard with it.  it depends on the matchup, the die roll, your read of your opponent and a whole bunch of other things.  It's just something you have to learn when to do.

you kill people not using beserk the same way people do in extended: by attacking with psychatog...it's not that unusual on your third or fourth attack with a tog to have enough cards to pitch to him.

Hale

[Kowal]

Yeah, it's not unusual to be able to resolve enough draw spells to have 8-10 cards in hand, especially during a will turn.  Between fetches, forces, pain lands, and DA, your opponent is usually at least down to 18, and often down to 16 or lower.

[effang]

interesting. so the zerk is only used against aggro to break through the ground defense?

does that mean you guys actually don't even bother using berserk in most current matchups?

[Godot]

When you're playing duress, your only contending with first INITIAL threat to your game. Sure, you can duress out the first turn trinisphere but that doesn't stop your opponent's oncoming wastelands and crucibles.
...
And i do really do disagree with the statement that outside of a turn 1 trinisphere, tog can handle everyting else that comes down.

Wasteland and Crucible are not a concern and really dont slow you down.  If you're running 9-10 combined fetches/basics then this shouldnt be a concern.

Im not saying it easy, but you have a fighting chance against every play that isnt turn 1 Trinisphere.  Against any other turn 1 play you're still able to use your Moxen, Brainstorms, FoWs, etc.  You can develop at a rate much closer to normal and, most importantly, you're not giving your opponent 2 free turns to develop a truly overwhelming advantage.  Juggernauts, Tangle Wires, Welders, Smokestacks and whatever else can all be dealt with, but not if they resolve turn 1 trinisphere.  So stopping/answering turn 1 Trinisphere is the biggest step toward winning the workshop matchup, and I think a Tog build with Duress and Wasteland is best equipped to handle that.

I'm new, no kidding, but I really do not ever see anybody mulling into a force

I tend to mulligan very aggressively, but I usually do not attempt to mulligan into FoW purely to stop Trinisphere.  In that matchup you're going to need to maximize your resources and mulling down purely to find FoW may just work against you in the end.  Personally I'll never mull more than once if Im just searching for a FoW.  

I had this situation come up in my T8 match against Stax at Chicago.  My hand was strong--Mox, Walk, Ancestral, Basics--, but it was useless if he has turn 1 trinisphere.  I didnt mull considering that there is only somewhere between ~15% and 30%* chance my opponent had a Trinisphere and the mana to cast it.  My gamble didnt pay off, but Im still not sure if mulling would have been the right play.

does that mean you guys actually don't even bother using berserk in most current matchups?

I use whichever will let me kill my opponent the fastest.  Once a Tog hits the table you need to constantly be aware of how much damage you can inflict.  If I have Wish in hand and can win with Berserk I do so, but I dont go out of my way to kill with Berserk unless the situation dictates that its necessary.

* - this is just a really rough estimate since I hate to do statistics.  The point to take away from this is that the odds are in my favor.

[Ultima]

Wasteland and Crucible are not a concern and really dont slow you down.  If you're running 9-10 combined fetches/basics then this shouldnt be a concern.

Im not saying it easy, but you have a fighting chance against every play that isnt turn 1 Trinisphere.  Against any other turn 1 play you're still able to use your Moxen, Brainstorms, FoWs, etc.  You can develop at a rate much closer to normal and, most importantly, you're not giving your opponent 2 free turns to develop a truly overwhelming advantage.  Juggernauts, Tangle Wires, Welders, Smokestacks and whatever else can all be dealt with, but not if they resolve turn 1 trinisphere.  So stopping/answering turn 1 Trinisphere is the biggest step toward winning the workshop matchup, and I think a Tog build with Duress and Wasteland is best equipped to handle that.

I disagree with this statement because wastelands and crucible DO slow you down IF your playing duress.  If you duress someone turn 1, then you either fetching an underground sea or a swamp.  Obviously, wasting your sea will slow you down, but if you fetch a swamp, then your still 2 turns away from UU.  I don't understand how this isn't clear.

This is precisely one of the key reasons why leak is better than duress in that you don't expose your lands to wastes in the early game because you can fetch basics for leak to be active.

[Revvik]

Nevermind that red has ZERO replacements for the can-tripping Ground Seal, and fewer ways to deal with problem enchantments - Naturalize is still pretty effective.

Engineered Explosives handles enchantments pretty well and is colorless.

The colorless does provide flexibility as well.
I prefer the Seal - cantrippyness is sublime.
The Seal and Pernicious Deed are also much more stable than Engineered Explosives - enchantments are generally less "hated-out" than artifacts.

I guess what this thread comes down to is how effectively the player can use the colors available to him to deal with problems.
I personally prefer UBg - I've found that with my configuration I'm able to handle most everything that comes my way, and I prefer the classic Berserk to... Fling.  Aggro matchups or not, Berserk always comes down quicker for me.
Others may feel differently of course - hell, I feel 'tog is pretty customizable to the player.

[Dante]

Nevermind that red has ZERO replacements for the can-tripping Ground Seal, and fewer ways to deal with problem enchantments - Naturalize is still pretty effective.

Engineered Explosives handles enchantments pretty well and is colorless.

The colorless does provide flexibility as well.
I prefer the Seal - cantrippyness is sublime.
The Seal and Pernicious Deed are also much more stable than Engineered Explosives - enchantments are generally less "hated-out" than artifacts.

Not sure what you mean by the fact that Deed is "more stable" than EE - you're not looking for either one to stick around...you're using them to remove things.  The fact that EE is less vulnerable to removal is kind of moot because you normally drop Deed/EE to get rid of something in place, not pre-emptively (exactly because people can kill it).

I was just pointing out that any color build of tog can destroy the enchantments it needs to (all 2 cc or less) using EE.

Ground Seal is a proactive, preventative measure for welders, animates, etc, totally different from EE/Deed.

[Revvik]

There have been times when I've had to drop a Deed against fast aggro and wait a turn before activation due to mana constraints.  Deed being an enchantment means I can trust it to last the turn.
Engineered Explosives generally hasn't lasted me that long - I've done enough testing with it in a general UBr 'Tog build to know that, while it is good removal, my personal preference is towards Deed.

But it's like I said before - optimizing 'Tog, to me, means building the deck with the specifications you as a player expect - which means utilizing the colors you're comfortable/confident in.

I have an easier time with the green splash on the blue/black skeleton running 2 wishes and 2 intuitions.  This is due to the versatility of the sideboard removal (even if they almost never 2 for 1) and the availability of Ground Seal, which at the very least buys a few turns.  I know there are others out there who optimize the UBr versions (or the four color Hulk) better than I can, because their play style fits it and they are more comfortable with the options available to them.

[BreathWeapon]

Nevermind that red has ZERO replacements for the can-tripping Ground Seal, and fewer ways to deal with problem enchantments - Naturalize is still pretty effective.
Firestorm is wonderful and all, but Deed is resistant to blasts (I've seen Blue Blasts before :shock: ) and handles everything.

Red doesn't need to offer a replacement for Ground Seal, because Black has Coffin Purge. Intuition->3xCoffin Purge should be more than adequate to combat Dragon, and it's a deterrent vs Welders.

Green offers nothing to Tog but Berserk, and Berserk is win more vs everything but Non-Workshop Aggro decks (Which don't exist).

Red gives you; Fling, Firestorm, Fire/Ice, Lava Dart, Rack&Ruin, Red Elemental Blast, Flametongue Kavu and Gorilla Shaman.

Pernicious Deed is replaced by Engineered Explosives, and Naturalize is replaced by Echoing Truth (Although, I don't see what Naturalize is good for other than "Countering the Donate."

Green is for the players who like to play with 90$ cards in their SB.

[Godot]

I disagree with this statement because wastelands and crucible DO slow you down IF your playing duress.  If you duress someone turn 1, then you either fetching an underground sea or a swamp.  Obviously, wasting your sea will slow you down, but if you fetch a swamp, then your still 2 turns away from UU.  I don't understand how this isn't clear.

This is precisely one of the key reasons why leak is better than duress in that you don't expose your lands to wastes in the early game because you can fetch basics for leak to be active.

I thought you were talking more generally about crucible slowing you down.  In the given situation I see your point, but as I said previously, my number one priority in that matchup is stopping turn 1 trinisphere.  Even if it takes an additional turn to get Drain mana up or you lose a land to wasteland, I think that risk is worth it for a better chance at stopping turn 1 trinisphere.  So long as trinisphere doesnt hit, you can still develop at a semi-normal rate and thats half the battle.  Relying on having both a mox and your answer to trinisphere is a far greater risk in my opinion--especially in builds that dont run wastes to answer to turn 1 trinisphere.

[Revvik]

Red doesn't need to offer a replacement for Ground Seal, because Black has Coffin Purge. Intuition->3xCoffin Purge should be more than adequate to combat Dragon, and it's a deterrent vs Welders.

A) Not worried about the Dragon matchup
B) Not devoting 3 sideboard slots to Coffin Purge
C) Not wasting one of my two Intuitions on Coffin Purge

On a more petty note, I only have one foil Coffin Purge  

Green offers nothing to Tog but Berserk, and Berserk is win more vs everything but Non-Workshop Aggro decks (Which don't exist).

I've had my ass handed to me on multiple occasions by well-tuned R/G Beatz decks.  While not making record t8s around the country, they DO exist, and they can occasionally keep you out of the 6-1-1 bracket.

If these decks (and Fish) don't exist in your area, then by all means run red.  I run what works for me.

Green is for the players who like to play with 90$ cards in their SB.

Damn straight  

[Negator13]

Lava Dart does basically the same thing as Ground Seal vs. Welders, so if you're not worried about Dragon, you're all set.

Ground Seal has lost much of its value now that Control Slaver packs E.E. in its board to deal with it and Oath.

You should be running 3 Intuiton, btw.

Also, on an off topic note, could you PM me a basic list of these RG decks you're talking about? Sounds interesting  

[effang]

what exactly are you going to take out so you can intuitoin for three coffin purge?

[Revvik]

Ground Seal has lost much of its value now that Control Slaver packs E.E. in its board to deal with it and Oath.

You should be running 3 Intuiton, btw.

One Intuition for knowledges one Intuition for answers - I cannot argue with what has been working for me  
*shrug* Ground Seal still saved my ass at the last Star City

It is all about running what you yourself can play well in any given metagame anyways  

[Covetous]

I really feel that in the current meta, UBr is probably the stronger option.  The cards that red brings to this deck are so bomby and 2-for-1-ish, like R&R, F/I, FTK, Firestorm, etc.  Ground Seal, Deed and Naturalize are the best SB cards that green has to offer IMHO, and while Red cannot directly replace Naturalize, it has respectable replacements for Deed (EE) and Seal (CPurge or TCrypt).  However, I don't really think that the loss of Naturalize will hurt the UBr deck too much.  And, when you consider how much better some of its other answers are, the loss of Seal and Deed aren't really a big deal.  What does green have to offer that compares to R&R, FTK, Firestorm or F/I?  Not a whole lot.  Sure, Berserk is better than Fling for the most part, but not so much more than it really matters.  

One of my biggest arguments in favor of Duress is that Tog is NOT a control deck.  Thus, Duress fits into its game plan much better than the more controllish Leak.  Duress is always good turn 1, while Leak is only good turn 1 if you have a mox.  Sure, duress is more limited in the amount of threats it can handle, but most of those are the same threats that you fear.  Duress is so much better vs. combo and control, and probably not worse (or not much worse) vs. workshop aggro.  I generally disregard randomaggro.dec in my maindeck building, but with FTK & firestorm in your board, you will own them games 2 & 3 anyway.

3 intuitions is good because them you get them ASAP which is part of your game plan.  Snuff out is also a good answer in many matchups (hehe dragon).

[effang]

FTK? Since when did smash start adding FTK to it's sideboard.  What would you be bringing this in against that tog can't handle? and if tog can't handle something on the ground, then FTK probably won't cut it either (sundering titan, colossus)

Really, FTK has never seemed like a strong move in t1.  It costs 4, ripe for mana drain, etc.

[nickvos]

Flametongue is mostly in there to deal with creatures you don't want to wish for removal on; i.e., Juggernaut, Su-Chi, and, to a lesser extent, Goblin Welder. In addition he provides a beatdown mechanism that can help to speed up your games against these fast aggro decks.
   
   I can remember games where my opponent got out an early (not first turn) Trinisphere, so I sat with an FTK, waiting for the Welder to drop, and, sure enough, 3rd-4th turn there he was. I FTK it, waste his shop, and now HE'S hurting for the answer that must cost three or more.  Granted, this is a slightly favorable example, but you can see how it can provide a huge tempo swing when used properly.  

  As for the Mana Drain arguement, this is NOT a card you board in versus control.

[Smmenen]

Tog will return.  It's not that Tog is bad - Tog is quite good.  But the timing is bad.

The difficulty is that it is extremely difficult to win a tournament with it right now.  The goal should always be to find the best deck for a tournament, not to tune a deck to win a tournament.  Tog has a few serious issues.  The first issue is obviously the mana base.

In my opinion, and I have Lots of experience with Tog (it was my primary deck for most of the summer), playing three color tog is folly.  You need Red and you need Green.  

Also, if you don't devote 3-4 slots to Old Man of the Sea in the SB, don't bother playing this deck.  In my experience, nothing else is sufficient to make the Fish matchup anything better than "risky."  

The real trick is to find a resilient mana base and a properly metagamed mainboard.  Even if you do, you'll need to play perfectly and struggle to make top 8.

[Berserk]

Does anyone think Crucible can find a place in current Tog builds? I ran it for awhile and as we all know, Crucible is often the game winner in 40%  of those situations. Just wanted to know what everyone else thought of running this card, especially with the Wasteland synergy.

[onelovemachine]

My teammate Godot recenty T8 in SCGP9III with his version of tog. I REALLY liked his manabase,

First of all, Clown, his manabase is MY manabase that I came up with and Windfall leaked to you the night before Chicago.  That said, MY current manabase does run the crypt over the sol ring because it is better acceleration.  It also comes down to the number of togs you play.  In euro UBR two togs and a mana crypt don't fit especially without berserk since you can't hulksmash.  With Godot's list three togs and access to berserk the crypt absolutely shines like gold.  Library does not have a place in it currently.

7cryptomoxen
5fetch
4underground sea
3volcanic
1trop
3island
1swamp

It is four colors because I believe that is the way to go.  Mark and I agreed prior to Chicago that berserk was too good to ignore so we added it into my UBR list that I had planned on playing.   Green is in my list but I basically choose to ignore green, act like it isn't in the list because the manabase won't support green cards save the one berserk.  Red is stronger than green in every other aspect.  Red blast, rack and ruin, fire/ice, and lava dart are all cards I play.   Red blast is necessary in control mirrors especially slaver since they have duresses for you already and bring in their own blasts.  Rack and ruin is bomb against shop aggro or control and cannot compare to oxidize.  R&R and oxidize cost the same under trinisphere and only the one two for ones.  Groundseal is a damn good card; lava dart two for ones.  I'm not sure that one is better than the other.  To say that groundseal is good because dragon is making a comeback isn't a great argument since you should have a good game against dargon already.  

On duress Vs. leak, I mostly echo Kowal and others.  Going first is a huge factor in the matchup vs shop regardless of the card you choose to play.  However, you will play duress first turn more often than you will leak and a second turn duress is actually decent.  Stax does not always have trinisphere first turn.  If that is the case a duress going second is still good.  Duress is amazing and upping it to four is definitely the right call.

[effang]

I have always found CS slaver and tog to be very similar.  Both have very heavy control components, as well as strong/resilient draw.  What pushes one to play smash or slaver?  Both are premier combo control decks and I'm interested to see what one generally plays?  Personally I like hulk much better, it is much cleaner and sleaker, however nobody really feels that smash is any good, and maybe it's time to sleeve up slaver...

[andrewpate]

Despite my (comparative) lack of experience, I have to weigh in and agree with Steve on this one.  There is still too much Fish afoot to justify playing Tog at this point--give it a couple of months, then maybe the budget players will have gotten around to building Doomsday and Fish will be a small enough component that you can dust off Dr. Teeth.  Playing the the 3-color version, even with Carl Winter-ish maindeck Back to Basics, is a losing proposition here.  As Steve said, you need both red and green.  Some of the sb tech and manabase discussions here may well be getting at the absolute best possible build of Tog in this metagame--but that's not something you should be concerned with.  Better to tune a deck like Stax or Oath that has good matchups to begin with.

@effang
CS Slaver and Tog really aren't that similar.  They do have similar manabases (aside from Slaver's Darksteel Citadels), and they do both have Mana Drain, but they are doing very different things, and skill with one does not really translate to the other.  Mulligan strategies, for example, are completely different.  That said, if you are deciding between the decks, Slaver is clearly the choice right now, for the reasons I stated earlier.

@Berserk
No.

@onelovemachine
If you do insist on playing the deck, Duress is clearly the choice, I agree.  Against combo, it is far superior (Belcher might make plenty of mana to stop/play around that Mana Leak, but ripping the Goblin Charbelcher can end it right there), as well as against Stax, like you said.  I also prefer it against Oath, since counter wars will almost always go their way on their turn, but during your turn you may be able to get a Duress through, potentially grabbing an Oath or a crucial counterspell.  Duress I like most of all, though, because it is a way to take advantage of first turn going first, unlike Mana Leak (barring a Mox), which is something you need to able to do right now.

[mainmanmazz]

I play green over red. Why? Because I find in my metagame that Oath and control slaver are played a lot. I have won matches because I have resolved a ground seal against control slaver and beat him down with my tog. The sideboarded naturalize complements the 4 duress against Oath, as well as Chalice for 2 can also pose problems. There are some Dragon and combo decks around, most of which I have a bad first game but proceed to smash them in the second and third via ground seal or chalice. I am going to the first tourney with it today so I can see how it does. By the way I have also killed stax by playing a ground seal, them sacking all of their pernaments and I naturalizing and smashing with a Tog.

[mainmanmazz]

I play green over red. Why? Because I find in my metagame that Oath and control slaver are played a lot. I have won matches because I have resolved a ground seal against control slaver and beat him down with my tog. The sideboarded naturalize complements the 4 duress against Oath, as well as Chalice for 2 can also pose problems. There are some Dragon and combo decks around, most of which I have a bad first game but proceed to smash them in the second and third via ground seal or chalice. I am going to the first tourney with it today so I can see how it does. By the way I have also killed stax by playing a ground seal, them sacking all of their pernaments and I naturalizing and smashing with a Tog. Also I have found the sideboarded night of the souls betrayal to own fish, killing all of their creatures (baring factories)

[Fominian]

Despite my (comparative) lack of experience, I have to weigh in and agree with Steve on this one.  There is still too much Fish afoot to justify playing Tog at this point--give it a couple of months, then maybe the budget players will have gotten around to building Doomsday and Fish will be a small enough component that you can dust off Dr. Teeth.  Playing the the 3-color version, even with Carl Winter-ish maindeck Back to Basics, is a losing proposition here.  As Steve said, you need both red and green.  Some of the sb tech and manabase discussions here may well be getting at the absolute best possible build of Tog in this metagame--but that's not something you should be concerned with.  Better to tune a deck like Stax or Oath that has good matchups to begin with.

I highly doubt fish will be a problem at any of the next major tournaments - sure a few die hards run it and do well, but the odds?  A solid hulk build can do well in the present meta, and with a little luck you will avoid all the fish (if any do show).

On the color issue - I have actually not found many issues where red is needed.  Sure there are times where you want it, but green just offers more strength and tricks against todays meta.

[glenchuy]

Fire/Ice can tap a Trinisphere so you can play out spells on your turn as well as drop any Moxen you've been holding back as well as take out two welders. Corey

this is usually one of the few stuff people overlook with f/i.  i have no idea why, but people often forget that trini shuts off when it's tapped.  

however, it is my opinion that it is still best to run the 4th color.  red (with ReB, mutation, RnR) is just too good against stax and shop aggro- although, you could run e-flux/h-recall on tog for the stax matchup.  (not as good as the red SB cards though)

cutting green is obviously another option, but that would cut artifact mutation as well, you'll also loose deed and oxidize (i like RnR better- since imo, it's still as effective under trini) but imho, what hurts tog the most witht he loss of green is the loss of berserk.

yes it can still win without berserk, but in tournaments where there is a strict 45-60 minute rules for matches, you'll drag the game so long into the match that you'll most likely never finish 3 matches especially if you're playing against another control player.  also, playing the full 60 minutes on EACH round is really taxing on a control player-  playing 7 rounds of swiss for 60 minutes (7 hours straight), and then having to go through the T8 (now without time limitations- which means, it could extend to well over 1-1/2 hour per match- is really physically demanding)  

i know the last part i pointed out is probably pointless when comparing which deck is better, but in long tournaments, fatigue also plays an important role, as the more tired you are, the more play errors you make.

[Smmenen]

Despite my (comparative) lack of experience, I have to weigh in and agree with Steve on this one.  There is still too much Fish afoot to justify playing Tog at this point--give it a couple of months, then maybe the budget players will have gotten around to building Doomsday and Fish will be a small enough component that you can dust off Dr. Teeth.  Playing the the 3-color version, even with Carl Winter-ish maindeck Back to Basics, is a losing proposition here.  As Steve said, you need both red and green.  Some of the sb tech and manabase discussions here may well be getting at the absolute best possible build of Tog in this metagame--but that's not something you should be concerned with.  Better to tune a deck like Stax or Oath that has good matchups to begin with.

I highly doubt fish will be a problem at any of the next major tournaments - sure a few die hards run it and do well, but the odds?  A solid hulk build can do well in the present meta, and with a little luck you will avoid all the fish (if any do show).

On the color issue - I have actually not found many issues where red is needed.  Sure there are times where you want it, but green just offers more strength and tricks against todays meta.

You have a very low chance of winning the Slaver match without 4 Red Elemental Blast in the SB.