[Discussion] Building a Better Hate Deck, or RG Tempo

[Gothmog]

Honestly, if you're not playing Lightning Bolt, why bother with Red? Pyro Pillar has never been broken, some utility cards are nice (Art Mutation, Mogg Fanatic, etc), but the reason to add red to this deck is be able to end the game in a flurry of burn.  If you're not playing at least 8 burn spells, you should consider dropping Red for a different color, maybe even White, which gives you solid tools for beating Oath and all manner of combo decks.  Or a mono green deck could be out there that uses some of the tools we've discussed.

Like I said before, you are not going to beat the best draws of other decks with R/G because we don't have enough over-powered cards.  You have to concentrate on winning the games you actually have a chance in.  Sideboard cards should absolutely just win a common/difficult matchup (ie Blood Moon, Choke if mono-U were very common, etc), be insanely cheap disruption (REB) or support the basic plan against a matchup but be narrow (Pyro Pillar is in this category for some builds).

[StarOrc]

It seems to me that if you want to create an effective budget "hate" deck you need to hate something that is in every deck in the format. MANA. Every deck needs it to work the way their supposed to work. Combine this with efficient creatures and you can have a successful deck. This is the same strategy Fish took. However Fish's threats aren't very relevant any more. Green gives us more efficient threats than blue and you can choose any of them and you will probably have a better game against most of the field. Based on this, here is my take on the R/G Hate Archtype.

The Hate:
3 Null Rod -> I hate Moxen
3 Root Maze -> I hate Lands and Moxen
3 Ankh of Mishra -> Fine you can have Lands but Take some damage
3 Wasteland
1 Stripmine -> Wait no you can't have those lands
2 Blood Moon -> I hate Dual Lands
3 Gorilla Shaman -> I REALLY hate Moxen (Could be Goblin Vandal)
3 Grim Lavamancer -> I hate Welders

The Efficient Men:
4 Jackal Pup -> 2/1 for R Nuf Said
3 Quirion Dryad -> R.F.B. for 1G (Real F-ing Big)

Utility:
3 Lava Dart -> Kills Welders and Players
3 Goblin Bombardment -> makes all your Men deal more Damage

Mana Base:
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Sol Ring
2 Taiga
7 Mountain
3 Forest

SB
3 Rack  and Ruin -> 2 for 1 is really good...
3 Flametounge Kavu -> 2 for 1 is really good
1 Elvish Spirit Guide -> Helps vs 3Sphere
1 Ancient Tomb -> Helps vs 3Sphere
4 Pyroblast -> I chose these over REB because you can target anything to pump Dryad for the last dmg
3 Naturalize -> Kills Oath without haveing a guy on the table

Kird Ape isn't here because of the mana base I have chosen, Also Lightning Bolt could replace Lava Dart but Dart is more for utility rather than killing players...

This list hasn't seen alot of testing but has been fair in the limited testing its seen... If I were to play a R/G deck it would look something pretty close to this.

Star

[NicolaeAlmighty]

See I don't agree with that build. Quirion? That guy isn't nearly as powerful as you make him out to be. There just isn't enough color diversity in your spells to make him truly powerful. This... isn't RG Beats... Wheres the Beats? Kird Ape is an efficient beater for a great cost. Throw a Rancor in the mix and you've got yourself a game winner. Where are the River Boas? River Boa is HUGE in this format! If they don't play islands than they play beaters, and the Boa can chump block all day. RG Beats is about aggro utility. Quick aggro with utility backup.

Lightning Bolt is more than aiming at the dome (although it can do a nice job finishing). Juggernauts? Old man of the Sea? Welders if absolutely needed... Also making something killable through either Cursed Scroll or Lavamancer.

I dropped one of my Cursed Scrolls to try out one Crucible... just for shits and giggles you might say.

[Negator13]

Choke looks like an autoinclude in any R/G deck's sideboard, it turns Islands into Lotus Petals, and every deck with Islands plays Islands as its only lands. (Choke works on Blue Duals, too.)

[Dxfiler]

Hello.  I thought I would post my RG deck on here.  I've been running it for a while.  I won $100 with it today at Disposable Heroes.  Last month I split with it and got $60 at the same store.  Today's tourney only had 14 people, but an assload of T1 notables including Rich Shay, Brass Man, Andystok and ELD were in attendance.  This was NOT an easy field.  

Here's my list:

"I hate control slaver.dec" (credit to Rich Shay for the title )

4 Hidden Gibbons (this card is just the nuts.  Try it before commenting.)
4 River Boa (Derf Derf)
4 Eternal Witness (Clunky but just too good not to use)
4 Oxidize (I go back and forth between this and Art. Mutation.  Both have their benefits but I lean towards oxidize because it's more convenient)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Kird Ape
4 Null Rod (If you're not running these, don't play this deck)
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

5 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SB:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Naturalize
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon

I've been honing this thing for a very very long time.  It stems back to my first Waterbury where I top 8'ed with O stompy... I liked the green components but always wanted to add burn because I would lose to FCG and sometimes slaver because of a welder gone wild.  I ran a bad initial version of RG with magma jets instead of incinerates, and ascetics over witnesses for my second waterbury and top 32'ed it.  The version above I will be running at the next Waterbury if I am able to attend.   I only run this deck for fun but I work my ass off to make it viable and I feel that my list is one of the strongest possible for this archtype.  

This deck is optimized for control slaver but can go toe to toe with other control decks also.  The only nightmare control matchup that I know of is Kepper.  They are too anti-creature for you.  The only hope is blood moons combined with REB's.  Control slaver is obviously the best matchup.  People laughed at me when I said that control slaver had a terrible matchup.  They do and this is it.  I have yet to lose to a slaver in tournaments.  This deck has defeated some of the very best slaver pilots, such as ELD and a certain atog who will go nameless.  You run far too many threats for them to handle.  Keeping a goblin welder on the board is an absolute horror show for them.  Their game 1 basically comes down to tinker or no.  Even if they do tinker, you can often just remove the threat (oxidize or multiple burn) or run them over before the threat has impact.  The threat can vary from Sundering Titan to Platinum Angel to Pentavus.  Angel is certainly the biggest threat of the three.

Combo decks are a mixed bag.  I faced 2 TPS and a Death long today and beat all three, but it was hard as hell.  Game one is often a nightmare for you, as you simply cannot put on enough pressure for them to succumb to before they go off.  Your game 1 basically comes down to getting lucky with multiple disruption spells.  Your only truly effective ones are the wastes/strips + oxidizes and null rods.  After sideboard this match gets increasingly better.  The pillars come in for the witnesses.  The rebs also come in but what you take out can vary.  I've been taking out a combination of lavamancers and oxidizes and that has been ok.  The blood moons actually come in against death long.  Yes, 3 mana is alot against that deck but if you actually get it out against them it hinders them tremendously.  If you can combine a blood moon with a null rod against deathlong, then it's GG.

Beatdown decks are far too widespread to analyze individually.  Food chains seems even, as does stax.  I have not played against these decks much  lately which is why I can't comment further.  Madness is a nightmare because they are just as fast and have much better creatures than you do.  Plus theirs can fly.

I would recommend playing this deck if you see an abundance of control, particularly slaver.  Where I live (Providence/Boston are of New England) this deck is a no-brainer for me because I love aggro and slaver is EVERYWHERE.  I mean it :-p  If slaver isn't huge in your area than this probably isn't the best choice for you as far as aggression goes.  This form of beats is essentially a hate deck, hence the name.

There's my input.  I hope you found it useful.  

- Dave Feinstein

[[supa_t(im)]]

@Dxfiler
I really, really like your build.  I would probably use artifact mutation over oxidize, and drop a null rod for the last wasteland, but those are probably personal preferences.  Also Mox Monkey is strangely absent.

The only problem I see is that you don't have a very good way to deal with Oath.  Maybe Naturalize over Oxidize MD and Artifact Mutation SB?

@StarOrc
You suggested Quirion Dyrad.  Not in this deck I think, but possibly in the little known, Gro-Sligh.

//Creatures: (20)
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Kird Ape
4x Jackal Pup
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Horned Kavu

//Other: (19)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Incinerate
4x Pillage
2x Naturalize
R Regrowth

//Lands: (21)
4x Wasteland
R Strip Mine
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
8x Mountain

Sideboard:
2x Pyrokinesis
2x Naturalize
3x Artifact Mutation
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Red Elemental Blast

Its a bit dated since I haven't tinkered with it in almost a year, but thats the kind of R/G deck dryad would be good in.

Also root maze and ankh of mishra are ++ bad with fetchlands.

@xrobx
I really like magma jet as well, but with juggernauts being the favorite creature over cloud of faeries, I think we may need a three damage spell in that slot.  Maybe even over fire/ice.

@Revvik
About the maze of ith vs. wastelands thing.  I think the only deck that you'd SB the mazes in for is Oath, and they don't run the full complement of strip effects.  If nothing else it will stall them for 1 turn as they blow up your land.  I think its probably still effective.

Good to see so much discussion on this topic  

[MCS]

I've tested root maze since it sounded as a good add-on...and, my godness, it is so good. This is the current version I'm playing with some explanations:

//NAME: Zoo
        3 Gorilla Shaman
        4 Grim Lavamancer
        4 Skyshroud Elite
        4 Kird Ape
        4 River Boa
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
        4 Root Maze
        4 Rancor
        4 Lightning Bolt
        3 Incinerate
        4 Land Grant
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Black Lotus
        4 Treetop Village
        4 Taiga
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Mountain
        1 Forest
SB:  1 Gorilla Shaman
SB:  3 Artifact Mutation
SB:  3 Naturalize
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Null Rod

First some brief explanations: root maze is a major hoser for any deck that abuses tendrils, moxes, artifacts, lands, whatever. It usualy slows them down for 1 turn, but mostly for 2 turns. I think I don't have to explain how important for this deck is to have 2 more turns to hit. Great idea, thumbs up for the guys that tought about this one.

Land grant is better with root maze since fetch lands comes into play tapped. The bad thing about not playing fetch lands is the non-ability to get the basic mountain, wich can be bad sometimes if your opponent is running crucible/wasteland.

I've tested treetop villages as sugested, and they are better than mishra's when you're running root maze. The "you can't counter me, you can't balance me" innate ability of villages is the main ability why I'm playing man lands in this deck.

You must play kirds and elites in the deck, you have to beat your opponent asap. Killing orchard tokens is not a good plan - with what are you going to kill your opponent then? Better put a rancor on the token, cast a few more critters, race and pray for the best. Root maze is just nuts against oath, buying you 2 or even 3 more extra turns.

Hidden gibons are also great, but they have a flaw. A good combo player will play around them, waiting for the last moment to activate them. Against aggro mirror's they are usualy bad. Against slaver decks they are dead cards most of the times. The only realy good matchup where I want to have them is a control matchup, and that is, by default, in my favor. This is why I discarded them in further testing.

Magma jet? Fire/Ice? I mean, incinerate does 1 more damage for the same cost, kills jugernauts, kirds and ophidians, etc. If I have to burn a welder, that's ok by me...and I doubt there is any deck in this world against wich fire is a superior cards than incinerate (except fish and perhaps traditionals sligh decks).

Sb...well, the sb is built as it is, it depends on your local metagame. I realy like to kill food chain, so I run naturalize in my sb. On the other hand, emerald charm is far superior if you want a tool that is oriented for fast oath and food chain killing. I prefer the versatility of naturalize.

[waSP]

Dxfiler, I like the success you're having with the deck.  You're probably the only one in this thread actually doing anything with it (tournament-wise) these days.  Your build is a little different than what is common in this thread.  I have a couple suggestions on how you could tune it a little better; my metagame used to be hugely control, but has shifted to something a little more diverse.

You only need 11 burn choices to effectively handle Goblin Welders early.  So, you can cut a Lavamancer for room.  If Fire/Ice is prevalent you may want to maintain the 4/4/4 ratio.  He isn't vital.

Why not be diverse with the Oxidize/Artifact Mutation threats?  Go 2/2 or 3/1 maybe.  That would probably help against random 11/11 tramplers.  Oath sometimes has those.

Why are you running 4 Eternal Witnesses?  The 3cc guys come out later than your game plan wants them to.  You could probably get a little more aggro without a full complement of those fellows.

You should amend the Null Rod comment to, (If you see much Control Slaver and you're not running these, don't play this deck).  Some metas don't really reward one's playing Null Rod.  Oftentimes other disruptions, like a full complement of Wastelands, Root Maze, Ground Seal, are a little stronger.

Lastly, you could probably drop a Taiga or 2.  You don't need all 4.

[Dxfiler]

Thanks for the feedback.

To waSP:

I've been considering alot of the changes you proposed.  Some I've been tinkering with and some I don't see me changing.

I like having all the burn I do because it pulls wins out of games I shouldn't win.  I might cut a mancer and something else for 2 gorilla shaman.

I will definitely be adding artifact mutation to the main... probably 2 oxidize 2 mutation.  I've had issues with random colossus owning me which mutation has solved for me in the past.

I can see going down to 3 witnesses, but at the same time they've been stellar alot game 1.  They are the most SB'ed out card however.

I stick by my null rod comment.  Four must be in this deck.  They are nuts against more than half of the field, not just slaver.  I stole many game 1's from combo by just dropping this on turn 2 and beating them down.  I can't see running rootmazes or ground seals main because they are just too specific.  I can see running 4 wastelands but haven't really had the need to yet.

Four taigas are necessary as you want to be able to drop anything at anytime.

Take care.
- Dave

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I play my build on a weekly basis in a fully powered metagame involving everything from Long to Stax to Food Chain. It is my one truly competitive tournament deck and it has won me much. I do like the sound of Root Maze though. SB at least. Hidden Gibbons has never really interested me too much... I tried it but found that under most circumstances it just wasn't consistent enough. The whole Fire/Ice Incerate is a pure metagame choice. I find Fire/Ice a better option in my metagame- being full of Welders and assorted jank weenies. I may swap Fire/Ice out though (a pity though... foil playset ) for Incinerate due to the lack of fish these days. Eternal Witness has always seemed like fun but I guess it's just a wink over my preferred mana curve. There are only three things in my deck that cost 3- 2x Call of the Herd and Crucible. The Calls are usually always the first things sided out due to the abundancy of Mana Drains in the meta. Adding 3x Eternal Witness just seems a little too high. I'd much rather that gap be filled with cheap beats/ burn/ utility as it should be.

I do fully agree with four Taigas. I don't know how the deck could manage without them...

Sideboarding, I play with both Null Rods and Ground Seal, but in the end I would much rather prefer Ground Seal (seeing as how I don't play Naturalize).  Rarely can a resolved Slaver ability do anything more but stall... Its the recurring that I try to kill. I may drop Null Rod altogether... Haven't made up my mind.

[^james]

A friend of mine just directed me towards this discussion which, until today, I had not happened upon.  I've been independently attempting to retune r/g into a lethal viable T1 deck for 3 solid months now.  Playing it against the best netdeck builds of Oath, M.Workshop based, and combo I could find.  Let me qualify my contribution to this forum by saying I've had a T1 built-and-ready-to-play red/green deck since 4th edition.  Red/green in all its various forms has been the color combo closest to my heart.  My playing in the past 4 years has been sporadic at best, but I've become fully engrossed in type 1 again and have been putting a lot of thought and play testing into my r/g deck.  Up until 3 months ago my T1 r/g deck was (what I considered) just a fun deck.  It was Kird Ape, G. Shaman, GrimL., R.Boa, C.Scroll, Various Bolts, Wheel and a little power.  But then I realized it could be more.  So my quest began.

I should take this opportunity to say this deck isn't the free-swinging fun r/g deck anymore.  It is a tempo dragging controlling resource encumbering slow death.  Creatures ALL become disposable but they MUST have an expressed purpose in the deck (except Kird Ape.. he is just too cheap to pass up).

Be thankful that I will spare you the numerous earlier builds of the deck.  Its current state of evolution is what's important.  I'll just point out that I have proved through testing that Grim Lavamancer is not essential to a competitive r/g deck.  In fact I've found the opposite, he slowed me down.  Before you cry "heresy", keep in mind I've played AT LEAST 300 games vs nothing but tournament quality decks (mostly highly tuned versions of Oath and of 5/3).  I've found that the more h8 cards you have in your deck round 1, the better your chances of success are.  I've found that the faster you get Blood Moon out the closer you are to victory.  This deck is built around Blood Moon, of that there is little doubt. The heart of the deck is Magma Jet (in conjunction with Sylvan Library which obviously works well with L.Grant and W.Foothills).  Ok, enough typing and on to the deck.  I'll drop some notes along the way.

-=Red (21)
4X Kird Ape (R for 2/3, attacks.. blocks.. very disposable. think of him as your worst 1st turn drop)
3X Gorilla Shaman (his usefulness depends on the deck you're playing vs.. w/ rancor kills Juggs)
4X Blood Moon (ESSENTIAL!!  Get it into play asap!  Get 2 into play if you can.  You NEED 4 in the deck.. main deck, no question)
2X Pyrostatic Pillars (screws TPS, Y.Will based decks and other combo, it might be the source of damage you need late to finish someone off as they draw for a solution to b.moon.  It is in the deck because my sideboard is stuffed)
4X Magma Jet (not a draw engine but I would rather draw the 1 card I want than have two useless ones. indispensable)
4X Lightning Bolt (kills Juggs, M.Worker, WELDER, manlands, does damage post sideboard)
NOTE: before you continue understand that if they are playing anything that might have a welder in it save your bolts if you can help it.  Welder must not live.  And if playing landstill remember to bolt them in their discard phase when they drop standstill.  Don't be afraid of standstill.. I'm not.

-=Green (10)
2X River Boa (blocks and regens, SCREWS landstill.. psst, island walker and G to regen!!  Landstill for some reason never sees him coming and taps out)
2X Rancor (super sizes small guys. g.shaman now kills juggs, great vs stacker if they get stax out somehow, gives my 1/1 Oath token [god forbid] a little punch)
2X Sylvan (it is one of those cards that you don't really need short game but is indispensable in a drawn out game.  However, you never want 2 in your hand... 2 is a perfect count for the deck.)
4X Naturalize (what can't you kill with Naturalize.. i would use 8 if i could.. H8!!)

-=Gold (3)
3X Hull Breach (I hate Oath.  This card H8s Oath.  They have 4 oaths, I have 7 ways to kill it before sideboarding. At worst killing an art is never a bad thing.. but I like killing both!)

-=Artifact (3)
3X Cursed Scroll (constant welder threat, deals a lot of damage in a drawn out game.  3 is a perfect count. Forget what you think you know about C.Scroll.. this deck is semi-control which takes some time)

-=Mana (23)
4X Land Grant (haven't had many problems with Grant.  It has not been countered once in the last 2 tournies I've played in. 3sphere is the only thing that has punished me a little for using it but that is the risk you run for deck thinning.  It gives me either basic land or the taiga if I need red.. and works well with Sylvan.  Doesn't flow with P.Pillars but oh well.)
4X Wooded Foothills (4.. a must.  Get basic lands because this deck is a little weak to a well places wasteland.. especially when they also have a tinker/titan threat.  If they are going to CoW lock you make them go digging for their stripmine)
4X Taiga (I've thought about taking 1 or 2 out for basic land.. but they are beta taigas so I have to respect them =)
2X Forest
2X Mountain
1X Black Lotus (are you eyeing my black lotus.. no, it isn't for trade)
5X Mox R, E, J, S, P (Don't even suggest crome mox unless you don't have the real ones and can't stand proxies.  Mox D. isn't bad but I really do need my lands... There MIGHT be a home for Mox D. in this deck but I haven't given it much consideration.  Why am I using off color moxes?  Don't tell me you already forgot that getting B.Moon out asap is critical.  1st turn sylvan is also good, as is a magma jet if you only have 1 land and the mox.)
1X Sol Ring (This COULD get the chop for the Mox D.. but I'm a sucker for beta.  And it is great if they drop 3sphere)

Btw, did I mention this deck is all english and beta (where applicable)?  Sorry, I had to gloat a little =).  

On to the SIDEBOARD:
This is where things get a little weird.  I'm open to suggestions here..

4X Artifact Mutation (no explanation needed)
4X Pyroblast (slow down oath if you can, break up combo's draw (get that rebuild, cunning wish).. you all know what to do with REB and Pyroblast)
2X Red Elemental Blast
2X Pyrostatic Pillars (to fill the playset that is already in the deck.. kill combo and draw engine heavy decks)
2X Rack and Ruin (I don't think I need these in here anymore with all of the maindeck art h8.  More REB's or go all out and put in Pulverize for affinity..?)
1X Platinum Angel (that's right, you read that correctly.  I might even find another slot for P.Angel.  If they beat you down with a traditional Oath deck you turn the tables and SB out ALL of your creatures and take the gamble.  If they saw Kird Ape and G. Shaman 1st round they probably won't give a crap if you bolt your 1/1 when they already have akroma/spirt out R2.  Then you hopefully use your REB's wisely and stop their attempts to get their hands on their naturalize (usually cunning wish because they probably aren't going to SB that in main deck even after r1 win/loss).  You still make a play to kill Oath.. it must die.  Let them burn counters saving Oath.  If it dies, great.. if it lives.. that's not so bad as long as you have a bolt to kill your little 1/1 chump.  If you manage to drop P.Angel never cast another spell that can kill an art because of the Misdirection they may not have SBed out.  If they cast 1st/2nd turn oath just relying on HullB. and Naturalize isn't enough when they have MisD, M.Leak, and FoW. I'm still testing this strat but I think it has potential.. Oath is just this deck's toughest matchup.)

I've tried Ankh but it is no good for this build.  It hurts me too much in drawn out games.  I've tried GrimL. but was never satified with what he did for me.  Tried Stormbind but it isn't a competitive card.  Tried the sligh approach, tried the stompie approach, tried the lockdown approach, tried just about everything.  What you see is the result of my efforts.  Play it against quality T1 top 8 builds and see where you get.  I got top 8 in my last tourny of 30+ ppl, 4-0-2.  Took out STP, Belcher, 4CC, 5/3 and was ranked 1st going into top 8.  I drew with dragon and Oath.  This all was before I put in the other moxes for speed and whilst I still had stormbinds main deck.  I lost to STP in top8 (same one I beat earlier) in a 3 round thriller.  R1 he got a 2nd turn kill. R2, I dropped 2 1st turn P.Pillars and won.  R3 there was a Pyrostatic on the board and it came down to him HAVING to memory jar at 4 life and hope I didn't draw a bolt with 7 new cards.. i didn't and he got off tendrils (casting it put him at 2 life) for the win.

So here it is: my baby.  It isn't a true contender.  It would probably lose miserably to a quality elf or goblin deck.  But it has the tools to take down the giants.  I probably won't win any P9 with it but there will be some pissed off Workshop abusers getting laughed at by friends for having lost to type 1's joke color combo--red and green.

[waSP]

James, thank you for that irrelevant post.  You'll lose to creature decks because you aren't running any Grim Lavamancer.  R/G is quite cabale of taking home power cards.  I've won 4 relatively large power (> 40 people) tournaments with R/G in the past (1 split).

You could have shortened your post to
I think Blood Moon is an important piece of disruption to include in the maindeck.  It is inappropriate to spam decklists in a thread.

[MCS]

The deck you're playing with seems like an average metagamed deck designed against an enviorment chocked with mainly workshop and combo decks. You're talking about speed, but all I can c is 9 creatures inconjunction with 2 rancors. Playing over 300 games means nothing, I've been playing r/g since '95 (scryb sprites, gazban ogres, bolts, etc.).

By my humble opinion, I think that the true question is should you play null rods or root mazes maindeck, and what creature/land ratio you should play. 4 taigas are a must, and land grant showed as a great card in the deck (I feel stupid for not thinking about it earlier). I agree lavamancer is mediocre, sometimes I replace it with nimble moongooses if I think I'll face an enviorment with many stp's (rarely this days, but still possible) or when I don't need to control the board (a 3/3 untargetable beatstick is always good).

Library is also good, but just 2 slow against combo, and 2 risky against workshop decks.

[Revvik]

James, thank you for that irrelevant post.  You'll lose to creature decks because you aren't running any Grim Lavamancer.  R/G is quite cabale of taking home power cards.  I've won 4 relatively large power (> 40 people) tournaments with R/G in the past (1 split).

First of all, WHAT creature decks do you expect to run into?  Fish auto-loses to decks like these, because R/G packs more relevant threats and bigger creatures.  Don't tell me you're scared of White Weenie  
Second, he's brought up a VERY interesting and unconventional way of thinking in regards to the Oath matchup - using their Oath of Druids against them.

Granted, this idea could use some refining - Platinum Angel probably won't be able to handle an Akroma or a Spirit of the Night on her own.  ^james, what else makes it possible for the Plat to aid you in beating an Oath player?  
Answering these types of questions may make it easier on the sideboard to deal with Oath of Druids without taking up too much slots.

You could have shortened your post to
I think Blood Moon is an important piece of disruption to include in the maindeck.  It is inappropriate to spam decklists in a thread.

As you can see from above, dissecting decklists like the one he posted gives valuable tech information and what ideas are running through people's heads and what is working for them.  Maybe you could've found a less dick-ish way to express your thoughts.

[xrobx]

So far we've gathered a vast slew of information on this deck from various sources and things are really starting to come together; this is good

Okay, so as mentioned recently, Blood Moon is a good hoser; a HUGE hoser.

Blood Moon hoses pretty much any deck out there playing nonbasics; with the exception of sligh and likely we will not run into a sligh matchup anytime soon, so let's ignore that for now.  The only other real threat that uses basic lands is either parfait, or monoU.  I'm not experienced in the matchup against parfait, so I'll negate my commenting on that deck.  Against MonoU, this deck (R/G) can thrive.  Help from sources like Rancor seem essential, and early 2/3s are never a bad thing.

The major part of this deck that needs to be solidified is its manabase and its disruption.

Key disruption cards worth noting:

Blood Moon:  as mentioned, should be a 4 of.  It works great against so many of the decks out there, and giving them only mountains to work with is great.

Null Rod:  Mixed thoughts on this one.  Some people love it, others find it subpar.  In a metagame heavy in slaver and combo, this card is quite broken.  It's usually a first turn drop, which makes the mana denial theme in the deck even stronger (ie. ESG + land).  It is sort of counter-intuitive with Root Maze, as often times Root Maze does a similar thing...

Root Maze:  Great card against many decks.  Really hurts 3sphere, kills fetches, hurts control (no longer able to go mox, land, go), kills dragon, hurts 4c/5c, slows down aggro slightly, all around a decent hoser.  Synergy between this card and ESG are crucial.  This also slows down the crucible stripmine/wasteland locks.  A good thing to note here is that this card will effect everyones manabase, so it something that produces mana that is not a land nor an artifact would therefore have great synergy with this mana denial card (enter birds of paradise).  Has better synergy with land grants than with fetches; less likely that they'll counter the land grant also, which is usually an important fetching tool.

Gorilla Shaman:  best man for the deck.  He is a must (4 of).  Combined with root maze, his ability to shoot moxen almost guarentees your opponent will not get any mana.  At worst, throw a rancor on him and you have a monkey that can throw shit hard enough to make the opponent think twice about letting him out/live.

Wasteland/strip mine:  These are usually essential.  However, the lack of crucible makes them slightly less effective (in a metagame that loves to abuse crucible), but nonetheless, with Root Maze in play, is crucible really that good anymore?? For instance, if I had wasteland in play, and they go tropical island (for god knows what reason), it comes in tapped, my turn i kill it, they play it again next turn but still cannot use it, i go and throw poo with monkey, they go and finally they have 1 mana.  Wow, I'm sure scared of that crucible now

Naturalize:  This card I'm not sure about maindecking 2 or 4.  It is always convenient to have removal in a heavy arti/oath environment, and if that is the case (that your meta is flooded with them), then run 4 main.  It has versatility and sort of plays like a green version of fire/ice as it was in fish.  It works as utility and is often never a dead card.

Hull Breach/Artifact Mutation:  I'm curious as to how art.M. works against colossus??  Many people mentioned hitting him with it, but he will not die, correct?  I'm assuming you'd still get the tokens or something??  Otherwise I see little reason for this to be strong against oath.  To beat oath, you need to take down oath; it's that simple.  Naturalize MD is always nice to use, and Hull Breach offers a bit of versatility in that spot.  SBing REB is probably a must in this deck; giving you atleast 4+4+2/4 =10/12 spells to play vs. Oath, which isn't a bad number.  You can always be creative with your burn if need be by killing your tokens, but that is kind of useless unless it's game-determining.  Often times, you can simply use your disruption combined with oath hate to destroy them quickly and efficiently.  You have an answer to each threat they give you.

The second topic to be discussed is manabase...

How ever will I cast thee:

As you gathered from my hints above...

Birds of Paradise:  Let them be birds.  Not only is this an almost guaranteed first turn drop that usually won't see a counter, it produces mana readily under root maze.  It has great synergy with rancor, as it flies and beats for 2.  It produces any color you need, and cannot be affected by wastelands/stripmine/null rod.  I believe the bird is a great addition to a mana hungry deck.

Land Grant:  Yes, you do need to get lands.

Taiga:  Likely 3-4 of these, again, it's a dual land.  Too good not to run, as land grant grabs red now when needed.  Susceptable to wasteland; which is slowed by root maze.

Mox Emerald/Mox Ruby/Black Lotus:  run em if you got em.

Sol Ring:  From my testing, it's been great.  Offers another way for a first turn blood moon.

Mana crypt:  I'd be weary here.  The damage you're dealing may not be as fast as this thing is to killing you, but it does have a mana boost which cannot be overlooked.  I'd run this if you have them, and also run 4 MD naturalize (in case things get scary, ie. life total is 1-3...).

ESG:  amazing.  Cannot be countered, free mana.  Go green.

Fetchlands:  I'd stay away from these with rootmazes, however, if you want to go a different root (heh), then use them at your own risk.  Sure they get around wasteland, but we already do that, right?  Sure they can counter land grant, but they can stifle a fetch just the same

Forest/Mountain:  Toy around with your build to get the optimum number, I'm not posting a decklist at this point in time.

Time to kill:

RIVER BOA: I believe is a must.  Regenerates, hits hard, has island walk, decent all around.  With a rancor this guy smashes face, and fast.

Kird Ape:  R for 2/3.  very nice.  Rancor makes him big and ugly.  Not to mention, he can be cast first turn with rancor quite consistantly.  A good beatstick that can be removed and disposed of at your descretion.  Worth running for his amazing P/T to mana ratio.

Skyshroud Elite:  Same as kird ape; almost exactly.  In the matchups where they don't run nonbasics, he may leave, but how often will that happen?  Works nicely as a beater all around, and kind of gives the opponent that 'i don't wanna break standstill' thought...in the sense that if I have root maze out, they go fetchland (thinking they'll get a basic), meanwhile the fetch comes in tapped, i still get my 2/3, and then beaaaaat.  Even if they do fetch next turn, he is still a 1/1 or if i rancorred, a 3/1, so still a good beatstick.

Grim Lavamancer:  Without much playtesting, he seemed beneficial.  However, he was not essential and sits on the lower end of the scale at the moment.  He takes out welders nicely, and opposing weenies.  A good control mechanism that is graveyard thirsty.  The downside is his mana hungry-ness, and graveyard hungry-ness.  I'd still run 4 at the moment, unless I traded for some heavier disruption.

Lightning bolt:  Best R for 3 damage card there is.  Great versatility, and can finish off opponents when the extra damage is needed.  Really kills those sui black players, and old man of the sea, as well as juggs.

Magma Jet:  Well, adding up the numbers, if you have room and want the second burn card (instant), I'd run this as it stands.  As mentioned, it's better to draw what you want when you want instead of a possible 2 card dead draw.  


Any thoughts/suggestions are greatly encouraged and welcome.  That is the current setup I would run and suggest in the current metagame.

[Zelc]

I have somewhat unconventional two ideas for attacking Oath.  These are just ideas, and I have not tested them, nor do I guarantee that they actually work.

Once, I lost to FCG when playing Oath because I couldn't prevent Food Chain from hitting the table.  By the time he actually allowed it to trigger (he'd sacrifice his creatures in response to the trigger to Food Chain), I had both of my creatures in my hand and couldn't get the mana to cast them before I died.  This may not apply to R/G beats, but if we could side in Goblin Bombardment and maybe some burn, we could essentually turn this deck into a burn deck.  Oath would never be able to trigger until the Goblin Bombardnemt is removed, by which time we could hopefully burn them out.

Another idea draws upon Odyssey/Onslaught T2's R/G Beats.  Against U/G Madness, R/G Beats would side in Ensnaring Bridge for random creatures.  It would then go for some early beats before playing Bridge and burning its opponent out.  This could work against Oath, but they could always side in artifact hate.

[waSP]

Revvik, it is not ok, at least in this forum, to spam decklists.  That was the 5th decklist on that page.  There is obviously not enough discussion going on about the deck.  Dissection of a winning decklist is dandy, but dissection of Joe Random's build is not what is done.  He provides the start of the discussion of his new ideas.  If there is some curiosity about a certain person's build, that is the time to put forth a new decklist.  We aren't working in concert as we should.  New people to the thread tend to enter, give their decklist of the week, and expect that that is exactly what is appropriate.  His post could have gone something like,

I believe Blood Moon is an often overlooked, but extremely powerful card in many matchups.  Against blue control (Control Slaver, Tog, Keeper) it shines.  It stalls decks like Deathlong and TPS enough to maybe get a little extra damage through.  It also has the benefit of attacking a few decks that are less common pretty powerfully (Fish, most combo decks, dual-based aggro/aggro control).  It is occasionally a dead card (mirror, FCG, Workshop decks), but I believe its advantage outweigh anything else, usually.

I have a clever idea for how to deal with Oath.  If we can pare down the number of creatures we run to an amount that can be sided out games 2 and 3, Oath might struggle to do anything against us.  Then, we can use their creatures to Oath out a Platinum Angel, suspending the game until we can get rid of their Akroma and SoN.  Or, if they side those out, we have to deal with Darksteel Colossus, Iridescent Angel, or some other fatty (a little easier to deal with).  What do you guys think?

Notice how that pseudo-post didn't require a decklist.  It had as much, maybe more, content and brevity.  It is important to post well once you've begun posting.

Zelc, Goblin Bombardment doesn't solve the problem of Oath, it just ignores it for a little while (until they can deal with it).  It's like destroying the Oath except its a little more proactive.  The downside is that your creatures become rather worthless.  They can probably get enough counters to deal with the burn spells you run.  That seems viable for something like SRB.

Ensnaring Bridge is a decent idea, but you have to figure out how to beat them after that.  They'll eventually be able to deal with it and then, what do you do?

Rob, you're ideas are a little different from the pack.  It's good to have a diverse set of views as long as everyone listens to each other.

Birds of Paradise aren't all that great unless you're running Rancor (not a given) and are still weak while doing that.  If you were running something that wanted to play 3cc cards early (setting up a crucible lock?), I could see the draw of Birds rising.  Birds are most often seen in decks with Survival for a reason.  They won't be dead after turn 1 in those decks.  They are out of place here.  You have a curve that doesn't need to be skipped all that badly.

I think I'm going to be alone in suggesting 2 Taigas.  You won't usually need to tutor all the land out of the deck.  It is unlikely that you will see more than 2 fetches/grants that would go for Taigas.  Especially if you're in a Wasteland heavy environment, having extra basics could be crucial.  It also is a little better, strategy-wise, because you see a lot of hosers in the less common decks (Blood Moon, B2B, Price of Progress).

I've heard nice stories about how Mana Crypt has been wonderful for people, but I've never been convinced.  I didn't use to run Lotus (when the format was slower and Treetop Villages were absolutely necessary), and I saw no reason to run a card as risky as crypt.

Fetchlands are fine under Root Maze.  People who tell you differently are suffering from some sort of problem (a lack of experience playing T1, a bad beat, consistent bad luck).  I've run fetches and Root Maze together since Jacob brough this oft-forgotten card back to knowability.

River Boa isn't going anywhere soon, but you don't necessarily need 4.  If you see a lot of combo and not too much aggro (besides FCG), you could consider dropping 1, maybe 2.  This is a question of what sorts of threats you need (fast, efficient, or utilitarian), and in what combination those threats will be employed.  Viashino Heretic seems pretty good right now, but is certainly not a contender for every metagame.

Magma Jet seems nice if you run a good deal of hate in your maindeck, but isn't very efficient (2 damage for 2 mana isn't going to have anyone shaking in their boots).  I don't know who has questioned Lightning Bolt (or I've since forgotten).

I know a lot of the people who play R/G are relatively new to the T1 scene.  There are a few players who have played the deck for quite a while, but the majority isn't going to be composed of the best players.  Comparing the average Slaver or TPS player to the average R/G player would demonstrate this point well enough.  It's important that the new players are both taught how to post, as well as play the game if they are to be valuable members of the community.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I agree that Blood Moon is an extremely effective hate card, but I'm not sure that it belongs MD.  I think that its use is slightly more narrow than other hate cards RG has and that its best if used as a SB card.  And then I only think three are necessary.  You don't want to draw multiples and just one will probably win you the game.  I tested it in the MD and I usually wanted it to be another card when I drew it.  I think root maze is the better general hate card.

I also agree that Goblin Bombardment is a good anti-Oath card.  It is true that it doesn't actually stop Oath completely, but sometimes a few more turns is all you need.  Besides, last time I looked at a Oath decklist, I didn't see any bounce or enchantment destruction.  Even with that being said, I think that Maze of Ith is better to deal with Oath (unless you use Blood Moon against it).  Its uncounterable, and Oath's lack of waste effects (they only run 3 I think) makes it more secure.

I'm not sure about BoP because they don't do anything besides make mana, and are not great without rancor (which is still not a definite thing in this deck).  If we are giving up on 3cc creatures like Troll, CotH, and Eternal Witness then I don't think that Birds are needed to solve mana woes.

I agree with waSP about only 2 Taigas.  Besides island, wasteland is probably the most played land in Vintage.  That means that you don't want more non-basics than you need in you manabase.  The only reason I see that you would want more than 2 Taiga if you were running Kird Ape, which I'm not sure should be run.  I think River Boa could possibly be the only creature which just "beats for 2."

I think the argument about fetches under rootmaze is that it takes 3 turns for you to reap the benefits of fetchlands under rootmaze.  However, you don't HAVE to play the fetches under a rootmaze, and chances are you aren't gonna run into more fetches than you will basics since the deck only runs 4.  I don't know first hand though, just an observation.

More and more people keep taking burn out of their decks.  I think this is the wrong route.  I think that burn is part of the answer.  I think running a full contigent of 12 burn spells with grim lavamancer (and possibly Mogg fanatic as well) is needed.  Then river boa for beats (Kird ape MIGHT work as well), with the rest being hate and utility.  I'm not gonna post a decklist because it would be way to rough, and not discussion provoking, but I think more burn and less critters is the way to go.

Thanks.

[^james]

Only some of this is in response to waSP so read on.. unless you don’t like reading.
Thanks for the instant dismissal of my opinions waSP.  You rock.  And thanks for droning on and on about what you think proper forum etiquette is for new posters.  I posted here a bit a few years ago but I forgot my account info long ago.  If you think my post is too long don’t read it and ask me with a civil tone not to do it again.  Perhaps even private message me.  You don’t have to be an ass about it.  
I should also praise you for instantly disregarding my deck without actually playing it first or taking into consideration why it is the way it is.  It is constructed the way it is because in my area most T1 tournies allow up to 13 proxies.  Consequently there are few hack-job creature decks and more high powered (albeit proxied) netdecks.  Power 8 + 4MWS with a proxy to spare.  7/10, affinity, stacker, 5/3, dragon, tinker, 4cc, TPS, oath, business etc etc etc.  I had to adapt.

Have you made top 8, or top 4 in any 30+ sized T1 tournies in the past 2-3 months with r/g?  If so what was your build.  I would genuinely like to know.  I’m not saying I don’t think you have but if you have been having success share with us please.  I’ve seen you dole out constant criticism (I would call it advice if it wasn’t so arrogant) which seems to allow you to maintain that your ideas are the best.  I’m not taking your comments personally.  I just don’t like your style of communication.  Perhaps I was a little arrogant in my post, for that I apologize.  It is understood that the point of this forum is to discuss the issues.  Is it not also acceptable to list, for the benefit of others, a deck that someone has engineered that is 100% on topic and has found actual success?  My deck has; and recently.

waSP is well known on TheManaDrain for his knowledge on Red/Green and he has been running it for ages. As you can notice under his nickname, he is a Vintage Adept and should be respected as such on these boards. Please try to be civil when posting. --Toad

----Now that that is out of the way.
My take on the question of, “whether [r/g h8] is good overall”:
No, not from what I’ve seen.  Even with my GrimL creature/damage heavy version of the deck with moderate hate I still couldn’t consistently beat my friend’s cleric/life-gaining deck (which is a pretty good fun deck actually).  Nor could I consistently beat his straight black recursion deck (buried alive, ghoul, n.shade, k.horror etc).  Would tps, slaver, stacker, oath, 5/3, or any other good T1 deck break a sweat crushing these decks?  In short, no.  However, within certain niches (namely competitive T1 tournies) I think r/g has a shot at top 4 if not the grand prize regularly in the current environment.  I think we are going to find that the best build of  “hate deck, or rg tempo” is going to directly depend on the environment the would-be player is participating in.  You are not going to build a deck that successfully hates EVERY OTHER deck out there.  Building a tempo setting h8 deck kind of requires you to react to your opponent.  Opponents will vary.  

@MCS.  I don’t think I ever claimed that this deck was fast.  If I did it was jokingly.  I mention several times that this deck drags.  My build usually takes 6+ turns to win (although I’ve had a few 3 turn wins).  Fortunately it drags my opponent down with it.  And as I mentioned earlier my environment is choked with combo and workshop because of the high proxy counts.
(still @MCS) I think Rootmaze is a better maindeck card than nullrod.  However, I don’t think 4 Taigas are a must, at least not in my build.  I’m always digging for basic lands because of wland.  If I didn’t run L.grant then I would run 4 taiga’s, but I do so I… do.  Wait a second, I’m still running 4 taigas for some reason which kind of kills my argument =)

I toyed with Root Maze for a little while and wasn’t very satisfied but I think I will put it back in place of Hull Breach and do some heavy testing this weekend.  I’ll let you know how I like it.  

Thanks for the support Revvik.  A little common sense goes a long way.  Why does my deck not take creature decks into account?  Because I don’t plan on running into any beatdown creature decks in my area.
My P.Angel idea was just that, an idea.  I’ve barely had a chance to play around with it.  Q: How does P.Angel help me win?  A: By keeping me alive to use bolts and C.Scrolls to win.  He doesn’t have to attack.  This plan is obviously flawed but I mentioned it to get you guys going in a different direction.  There is the possibility that you can MAYBE shut down Oath by only taking up 1 or 2 slots in your SB.  I don’t know if P. Angel is the best man for the job but he is the first that came to mind.  What is bigger and badder than Akroma that has flying and isn’t red or black that can be put into play directly from your library and has a realistic upkeep?  Or what is bigger and badder than Akroma and will out pace her for damage and is a creature she can’t block safely?  Let’s give this idea at least a little thought.

[Dxfiler]

My take on the question of, “whether [r/g h8] is good overall”:
No, not from what I’ve seen. Even with my GrimL creature/damage heavy version of the deck with moderate hate I still couldn’t consistently beat my friend’s cleric/life-gaining deck (which is a pretty good fun deck actually). Nor could I consistently beat his straight black recursion deck (buried alive, ghoul, n.shade, k.horror etc). Would tps, slaver, stacker, oath, 5/3, or any other good T1 deck break a sweat crushing these decks? In short, no.

You know, I thought for sure you posted the above lines as a joke.  


Then I realized you were serious.  Now I'm scared.

Here's the situation: RG beats is not made to compete against all things.  It can lose to random things.  That is ok.  Maybe you'll lose to a t1 version of life (which frankly doesnt sound like a bad matchup but I haven't tested it :p).  Maybe you'll lose to that random bad reanimator deck that wants to grow up and be dragon some day.  The point is...

You won't be regularly facing those in tourneys.  There's this thing called a metagame.  In it there are these types of decks that get popular.  Seasons go by and these decks wave in and out of popularity.  RG beats rears its ugly head when certain decks get popular.  It's not a deck for all seasons.  When the right decks become popular, this deck can come out of the blue and win tourneys.  I know.  I've done it multiple times.  I'm sorry ^james, but the version you posted earlier is just god awful.  I seriously doubt it has won any tourneys.  Land grants and hull breach?  I don't think so.  If it has won tourneys then good for you.  Let me know where you play :p

- David

[Revvik]

WasP: As far as the boarding creatures for the Oath matchup goes, what creatures could be sided in to race Akroma / Spirit of the Night?  The knee-jerk reflex answer is Darksteel Colossus (or two).  Maybe this deck could even get cute with stuff like Crater Hellion, clearing the path through the Protection Angels / Platinum Angel for the Colossus.

As far as Blood Moon goes, I was fully realizing its power (mostly due to its absence) in my game against TurboLand last night with "Iron Giant."  My game against him followed his game against our resident R/G Beatz player, who was cleaned out by TurboLand.

While Blood Moon is unnecessary, and probably unwarranted against many decks such as the popular Control Slaver, it does do wonders to combo like TurboLand, and decks that have "Titan-proofed" their mana-base.

And yes, WasP - Root Maze is a winning card, with or without fetchlands.  Delays Storm combo, provides a hassle for Control Slaver (and other blue control), and buys a window against Belcher and Dragon.  Who cares if it's double-sided?

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I was watching that game last night Revvik, and the Turboland player did only what any struggling deck can do when faced with death: topdeck gold. It wasn't a matter of the Beats player being outplayed. Just like a Tog player topdecking a Yawgmoth's Will to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. So I don't think "cleaned out" is the best way to say that.

Here's one people have been suggesting to me: Seedtime. Yeah, I know, I laughed too. I'm still laughing. But these were serious T1 players who were making serious judgements. Since my build is much more Beats oriented than other, that second turn would be leathal. Just something to throw around.

[Revvik]

Just like a Tog player topdecking a Yawgmoth's Will to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat

  You sound so accusing!  Since when have I, er, any Tog players used Yawgmoth's Will to 'steal a win'?  I've only done that, like what, twice?

Seedtime.

Go ahead, look it up.  This card looks both beautiful and terrible at the same effing time.  

Hotness:
Time Walk.  Early in the game, provides an extra draw and land drop, thereby increasing your board position and resiliency.  Late in the game, provides additional damage dealt - and a deck like this can do a lot of damage in the midgame to late game turns.

ummmm... Notness?
If you focus too heavily on using it, then you leave mana open when the correct play would be to drop additional threats.

EOT - Thirst for Knowledge?  Seedtime.
Brainstorm? Seedtime.
AK for a billion?  Who cares?  I'll take another turn and swing for lethal.

Weigh the odds, and TEST, Nick.  I'll admit that I was one of the ones laughing at first, but hell, Time Walk is probably the most powerful effect in the game.[/quote]

[^james]

Ok fine.  I won't criticize the moderator.  Sorry.
Dxfiler: I play in Seattle where sadly there are very few and infrequent T1 tourneys.  I've only had a chance to play in 2 since my 4 year hiatus ended 2-3 months ago.  I tied for 8th (in a pool of 36 I think) in the 1st one 2 months ago with the creature/damage heavy version of r/g (3-4 of ape, boa, grimL, shaman, rancor, various bolts and utility).  And I had only been back for 1 week before I entered into that tourney.  I didn't know what half of the cards did.  Dirty looks were sent my way when I had to read Skullclamp and Sundering Titan etc.  That 2nd tourney was last month (30+ ppl) and I, as I said before, sat at the #1 slot all day undefeated going into top8.  It was not meant to be though because I lost a close one vs TPS which was one of the few decks I didn't have time to playtest against before that tourney..  PPillars only made it into my SB because my bud suggested it minutes before the tourney.  I had only glanced at the netdeck list for TPS twice before I faced it that day and still managed to beat it earlier in the tourney.  The next T1 tourney that I know of is middle-late Feb.  This month’s tourney was canceled.

-=Seedtime: I like it in the heavy beatdown oriented builds of r/g.  Sideboard obviously.  Promising.  Although leaving that mana open on the chance that they MIGHT cast a blue spell is quite contrary to the purpose of that deck it would seem.  And if you're at 2nd or 3rd turn with it in your hand you're going to want to drop more beatz and you've probably already blown your ESG load to get some beatz out.  But I haven't tried it yet so I can’t shoot it down.  Very cool suggestion.

-=SBing anti oath beasts.  I had to think for a second if you could Oath in D.Colossus.  It apprears you can.  I've never seen 4cc vs Oath.. I just had the wording to go on.  You could Artifact Mutation your own D.Colossus for a guaranteed next turn kill.  Creatures out: ppillars, A.mutation, 1-2 colossus, RE/Pyro-blasts in.  Looks good to me.  Time to test it out.

-=@dxfiler again.  My point about ‘is r/g viable’ was addressing something wasp brought up earlier about not improving individual builds but focusing on whether r/g hate/tempo was a viable deck (although the context of his question was for SCG which is a few 1000 miles from me).  I guess my point is that there is no optimal build.  This isn’t a good all around deck.  What is good in one environment may fail miserably in another.  Building a r/g deck to beat my local competition is my goal.    What’s with the hostility and superiority dispositions here..?  (no need to answer that.  I don’t really care.  I’m just surprised.)

Is there a better prog. than Apprentice for play testing?

[[supa_t(im)]]

I don't think Seedtime is a good idea.  With the mana that you are saving to play it you should be playing threats, which will slow you down.  Then if it resolves and triggers, you use your next turn playing the threats you should have played before.

Magic Workstation has graphics for playtesting.  Some people say its better.

[waSP]

I'm glad we can keep it civil.

You can use Magic Workstation as well, although you won't be able to trump actual testing partners in any way except convenience.

You won't like how I'll start this, but I promise to try to turn it around.  Seedtime is a horrible idea.  It will rarely do anything and those few times it does, it won't do what you wanted it to do.  You have to think about what matchups need help.  Unless you guys are getting slaughtered by Tog and 4cc, I don't know what else would be casting blue things end of turn (is GaT popular?).  You're almost universally better off with a threat.

Seedtime raises an interesting question though.  Are you finding that you don't have enough to side in for dead cards in matchups where Artifact Mutation and Naturalize and other utility cards are irrelevant.  I did face this problem about a year ago when the mirror became popular here.  I start siding in Fledgling Dragons (Extended tech now ) to improve that matchup.

I've noticed the Tormod's Crypts disappear from sideboards almost altogether.  They are a useful tool against decks like TPS and occasionally Charbelcher (countering will can be big).  Is the absence of Dragon making this choice easier?

The point of this thread should be to keep R/G up to date with the metagame trends.  It may not be relevant for each person, but it is meant to reach an audience.  The purpose of the message boards is to further the community, not just our own aims.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I'm not sure that Tormod's Crypt is necessary right now.  If people are MD Elvish Lyrist, which is still in the air, and either MDing or SBing naturalize, those are some tools against Dragon.

What is the common SB now for a diverse metagame?

Also, what are peoples thoughts on Blood Moon nowadays?  Is it still worth its slot in the SB against 4cC and Fish (and a plethora of other decks)? or is the 3cc prohibitive enough to stop its effectiveness?

And has anyone come to a conlcusion about how this deck beats Oath?  or is it just an autoloss, with only fragile ways of stalling?

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Well, I personally don't see Blood Moon being all that powerful with everyone in the metagame paranoid of nonbasic hate. It has its moments, but overall it doesn't devastate too many.

Tormod's Crypt... I find it near unnecessary right now. I find that Ground Seal can, in most situations, do the same job better. Don't get me wrong, Crypt is amazing. It's just not the right time for it.

As for Oath, this is as tough a matchup as any. The last Oath player I went up against was a fierce battle. It's all about the speed and the beats. They have a good chance of just outright tearing this deck apart. Then again, we have a good chance of being as quick and strong with utility to back it. Rancor is the MVP here.
The first game, he did what he was supposed to. The deck did what it does to aggro. The second game, he didn't exactly have a nuts draw again. First turn Kird Ape, second turn Skyshroud Elite/ Rancor on Kird, Third Turn countered River Boa/ Treetop Village. It can be a quick and nasty business. Third game came down to Cursed Scroll powering out the win. That little bit of extra damage can be amazing. Don't underestimate Treetop Village. It may come into play tapped but it's still undeniably powerful. The bottom line? Like anything, Oath can be a bitch. Just a matter of doing what this deck does best: beat.

[Angel]

As an Oath player who has tested this matchup, I thought I'd chime in with what I've seen.

Nick is right in saying that R/G can race Oath. Kird Ape gets nasty very fast. Rancored Boas get nastier. If the R/G player plays Skullclamp, which is fairly good combined with the wasting of the Orchard, then things turn to shit real fast for me. I should also add that my main draw spell is Skeletal Scrying (normally we have a meta full of combo & control, heh), so R/G can make scrying painful very fast. However, R/G flat out loses to turn two Oath with backup. I'd say the matchup is even-ish, depending on the competency of the player. waSP is correct in his assessment of the "average" R/G player's skills. Case in point, my opponent would have won the match certainly if he was a little bit better. I don't mean to insult anyone here, I've played Nick before in a tournament and I know him to be a rock solid player who knows his deck.

Regarding Bridge, Oath plays Cunning Wish, or at least it should. Oxidize seems good. Stick with beats. No wrong threats, only wrong answers, and believe me, an Oath sb is full of wrong answers to this deck if you can avoid the early Oath of Doom.

If anyone would like the list of the R/G I play against, please PM me.

-John

[Covetous]

On Blood Moon:
What decks do you want to use it against?  I saw someone mention Oath specifically.  What, exactly does this do?  Cut them off from Green?  Yes, maybe, but not if they poop out their 2cc Oath before you drop your 3cc blood moon.  Okay, so maybe it can keep them from giving you creatures with Orchard.  Except you win WITH CREATURES.  Just because they can't give you creatures under moon doesn't mean crap unless you have an alternate win that doesn't require creatures.  Blood moon was good when control decks had all-non-basic manabases.  But, those days are over.  Now, the Moon is simply not as good as Root Maze.  I'd consider MD Ground Seal or Naturalize over Blood Moon.