It's time to have a Serious Discussion about Proxies Again

[Vegeta2711]

Haha, I am not crying about it first of all. I never said I should be able to play or I feel cheated as a human being because I can't play. All I am saying is that I enjoy playing magic and that it would be nice if it were cheaper. I play poker as well, and that's free, (other than buy ins, but you also win money, so it's all good.) But you are absolutely correct in saying that magic isn't that expensive compared to other activities. The only difference is, I feel more committed to other activities, and they seem more substantial to me.

For example, I ski a lot. It is very expensive. It is something I absolutely love and will never give up. Skiing however, dominates my life, I ski upwards of 4 times a week, and thus I feel justified in spending 350 dollars on a pair of skis each year. I suppose it's just that magic right now to me doesn't seem nearly as substantial and the money doesn't seem as justified, seeing as I would be playing in only a handful of tournaments all year.

I'm sure magic would in time, turn into something that really means a lot to me, and the price I put into it to begin with would all be worth it, but it's just that at this point in time, the investment seems very severe and steep.

In skiing, you can rent some skis and try it out for a day. I think proxies are similar to this in magic. You can try it out, see how you like it, and then once you really enjoy it, you can invest the money to getting the real cards.

However, there is also the matter of why buy the real cards if you can proxy them, and I certainly agree that it would be annoying to play against or with a 40 proxy deck. So really, I don't even know where I stand. I wasn't really trying to say that I feel there is a need for more proxies, I was more just revealing my situation and thoughts, just to give all the participants of this debate another perspective, not necessarily another opinion.

I guess I will just save up slowly and buy those FoWs and Fetches. What can I do.

Solid then, we're on the same page then. I wholly agree with you on the hobby thing and such. Actually this was one of the best responses I've seen in well... months. Kudos.

[b-tings]

I'm sure magic would in time, turn into something that really means a lot to me, and the price I put into it to begin with would all be worth it, but it's just that at this point in time, the investment seems very severe and steep.

In skiing, you can rent some skis and try it out for a day. I think proxies are similar to this in magic. You can try it out, see how you like it, and then once you really enjoy it, you can invest the money to getting the real cards.

However, there is also the matter of why buy the real cards if you can proxy them...

This is an excellent point, and I think I may have some sort of solution (forgive me if I'm rehashing something that was already mentioned, I just poked my head in near the end of the thread).

In order for Vintage to remain healthy, we need proxies to keep a large player base. However, with proxies, it is possible to play the format, and play it optimally, without ever acquiring all the cards. This two objectives seem to be at odds with one another. The central problem, then, is how to allow people to play with proxies and still have players (not collectors) not just want, but need power to be able to play. In other words, we want people to be able to play, but not to be able to play, without proxies. Seems simple enough to me.

What we need is a staggered tournament system. All the local Mox tournies can run on 10, 12, 15 proxies no problem. But there should also be other, higher profile vintage tournaments for bigger prizes, without proxies. This would allow people to play vintage with proxies, but would also prevent them from being able to play without proxies (I told you it was simple  ). It would give players something to build towards as they put together their set of power, and would reward those that did commit to the format, without excluding those that didn't.

I know that there ARE a few non-proxy vintage tournaments around (e.g. the Canadian Vintage Championships at Canadian Nats, Vintage Championships at Gen Con), but they need to be raised in profile and in lustre. I would've loved to see that French tournament for a full set of beta power be no proxies.

Of course, the same old pro-proxy arguments would still be voiced: it's not fair to exclude people due to the availability of these cards. Under this system, we're not excluding them from the vintage community, and they can still play their deck for good prizes, but at the same time we're making the power mean something again. I think it's an elegant compromise between the two sides, and it's the best solution I can come up with. While it might be a little harder to implement than it is to set down on paper, I still think it's worth a shot.

[Jacob Orlove]

I would've loved to see that French tournament for a full set of beta power be no proxies.

That was a sanctioned tournament, so by definition there were no proxies. They also gave away prizes to the top finishing players without any P9 in their decks.

[Affiniteit]

I'm sure magic would in time, turn into something that really means a lot to me, and the price I put into it to begin with would all be worth it, but it's just that at this point in time, the investment seems very severe and steep.

In skiing, you can rent some skis and try it out for a day. I think proxies are similar to this in magic. You can try it out, see how you like it, and then once you really enjoy it, you can invest the money to getting the real cards.

However, there is also the matter of why buy the real cards if you can proxy them...

This is an excellent point, and I think I may have some sort of solution (forgive me if I'm rehashing something that was already mentioned, I just poked my head in near the end of the thread).


What we need is a staggered tournament system. All the local Mox tournies can run on 10, 12, 15 proxies no problem. But there should also be other, higher profile vintage tournaments for bigger prizes, without proxies. This would allow people to play vintage with proxies, but would also prevent them from being able to play without proxies (I told you it was simple  ). It would give players something to build towards as they put together their set of power, and would reward those that did commit to the format, without excluding those that didn't.

I absolutely applaud this idea, because it has something good for both sides of the party.
On one hand, the people who dont have the most expensive cards can "rent the cards" to play with in a smaller environment and when they feel comfortable enough, they can shell out some more money and buy the real thing, to finally go down the big slopes.
It makes perfect sense and in theory should be able to satisfy both parties, because while it enables people to proxy, it stops them from going all out all the time.

[b-tings]

That was a sanctioned tournament, so by definition there were no proxies. They also gave away prizes to the top finishing players without any P9 in their decks.

You learn something new every day. I should probably do my research before I post, but this is more tangential and not a critical part of my point, so I got lazy.

[Smmenen]

Haha, I am not crying about it first of all. I never said I should be able to play or I feel cheated as a human being because I can't play. All I am saying is that I enjoy playing magic and that it would be nice if it were cheaper. I play poker as well, and that's free, (other than buy ins, but you also win money, so it's all good.) But you are absolutely correct in saying that magic isn't that expensive compared to other activities. The only difference is, I feel more committed to other activities, and they seem more substantial to me.

For example, I ski a lot. It is very expensive. It is something I absolutely love and will never give up. Skiing however, dominates my life, I ski upwards of 4 times a week, and thus I feel justified in spending 350 dollars on a pair of skis each year. I suppose it's just that magic right now to me doesn't seem nearly as substantial and the money doesn't seem as justified, seeing as I would be playing in only a handful of tournaments all year.

I'm sure magic would in time, turn into something that really means a lot to me, and the price I put into it to begin with would all be worth it, but it's just that at this point in time, the investment seems very severe and steep.

In skiing, you can rent some skis and try it out for a day. I think proxies are similar to this in magic. You can try it out, see how you like it, and then once you really enjoy it, you can invest the money to getting the real cards.

However, there is also the matter of why buy the real cards if you can proxy them, and I certainly agree that it would be annoying to play against or with a 40 proxy deck. So really, I don't even know where I stand. I wasn't really trying to say that I feel there is a need for more proxies, I was more just revealing my situation and thoughts, just to give all the participants of this debate another perspective, not necessarily another opinion.

I guess I will just save up slowly and buy those FoWs and Fetches. What can I do.

Solid then, we're on the same page then. I wholly agree with you on the hobby thing and such. Actually this was one of the best responses I've seen in well... months. Kudos.

Sure, you can use proxies to try it out.  But do you honestly think that 10 proxies is enough to even "try Vintage out"?  10 proxies is enough to spend $30 in a tournament to get your ass kicked and know that Vintage isn't for you.  10 proxies is what 0 proxies was 3 years ago and what 5 proxies was 1 year ago - not enough to continue to grow the format.  I think that no less than 12 proxies is necessary and probably 15 is somewhere around the right amount.  It's time to recognize this fact and adjust accordingly. 

[tidal kraken]

I, personally, think that 15+<insert $ amount here>for extra proxies would be good.
I really think proxies are needed to allow vintage to continue to grow. The cost is prohibitive to some people. I wish the DCI would allow GenCon to be a proxy tournament, but, alas thats just wishful thinking.

[Smmenen]

Prohibitive to some people? 

I would not be able to enter Vintage if I were just starting up.  Frankly, I don't see how anyone can.  If you have no Vintage cards right now but you are thinking about playing Vintage, I can't even imagine how you would get into it.  You would have to unload several hundred dollars just to get get Force of Wills and some basic Dual Lands, Fetchlands, and Wastelands, City of Brasses and the like.  I can't even believe what Goblin Welders cost now.  With Legacy grand prix's coming up, this problem is going to get much worse. 

It isn't even just that the price of power nine is expensive, you can't play Drains, Workshops, or Bazaars without unloading at least $400 and more like $600+. 

I don't think Vintage is really worth playing unless you have at least *some* metagame flexibility.  I like to be able to play whatever the hell I want.  Decks like Vroman's Uba Stax with Workshops and Bazaars and decks like Kevin Cron Stax with Chains of Mephistopheles and Workshops seem far beyond the range of any 10 proxy player.

[tidal kraken]

Prohibitive to some people? 

I would not be able to enter Vintage if I were just starting up.  Frankly, I don't see how anyone can.  If you have no Vintage cards right now but you are thinking about playing Vintage, I can't even imagine how you would get into it.  You would have to unload several hundred dollars just to get get Force of Wills and some basic Dual Lands, Fetchlands, and Wastelands, City of Brasses and the like.  With Legacy grand prix's coming up, this problem is going to get much worse. 

It isn't even just that the price of power nine is expensive, you can't play Drains, Workshops, or Bazaars without unloading at least $400 and more like $600+. 

I don't think Vintage is really worth playing unless you have at least *some* metagame flexibility.  I like to be able to play whatever the hell I want.  Decks like Vroman's Uba Stax with Workshops and Bazaars and decks like Kevin Cron Stax with Chains of Mephistopheles and Workshops seem far beyond the range of any 10 proxy player.

By some, I meant a lot. I should have stated that. I also agree with what you said in that post.

[mikee]

Smmenen makes a good point. It's hard to justify unloading several hundred dollars into something (duals, fetches and fows) just to try it out.

I guess at the moment the closest thing to playing vintage for me is MWS, and this is actually a great tool for people to be able to try out vintage and see what it is like.

I think that there should really be more thought and effort put into MWS, maybe organizing events and the like. Although I realise it's not the same as playing with real cards, but it is so easily accessible to anyone, it doesn't cost a dime, and it can really show you what vintage is all about, by letting you play any deck you want, giving you access to all the cards etc. I think that online free play can really help vintage along.

It's what drew me in to say the least.

I also really like the idea of the staggered tournament system. I think that really what we are trying to do is create levels of vintage players, in hopes that every player will someday reach a high level.

What I mean by levels is that, let's say the lowest level vintage player, or someone just starting out, will be one who plays on MWS, then he or she will start to actually acquire vintage cards, and then will slowly start to acquire the more expensive cards (such as Drains, Shops etc.) and will be able to play in tournaments with a decent proxy count. Slowly, he or she will be more and more seduced by vintage and will eventually get to the highest level, of playing in the biggest tournaments with all his or her own cards.

In my opinion, this is what we are really trying to achieve.

[Chamelet]

I'm sure magic would in time, turn into something that really means a lot to me, and the price I put into it to begin with would all be worth it, but it's just that at this point in time, the investment seems very severe and steep.

In skiing, you can rent some skis and try it out for a day. I think proxies are similar to this in magic. You can try it out, see how you like it, and then once you really enjoy it, you can invest the money to getting the real cards.

However, there is also the matter of why buy the real cards if you can proxy them...

This is an excellent point, and I think I may have some sort of solution (forgive me if I'm rehashing something that was already mentioned, I just poked my head in near the end of the thread).

In order for Vintage to remain healthy, we need proxies to keep a large player base. However, with proxies, it is possible to play the format, and play it optimally, without ever acquiring all the cards. This two objectives seem to be at odds with one another. The central problem, then, is how to allow people to play with proxies and still have players (not collectors) not just want, but need power to be able to play. In other words, we want people to be able to play, but not to be able to play, without proxies. Seems simple enough to me.

What we need is a staggered tournament system. All the local Mox tournies can run on 10, 12, 15 proxies no problem. But there should also be other, higher profile vintage tournaments for bigger prizes, without proxies. This would allow people to play vintage with proxies, but would also prevent them from being able to play without proxies (I told you it was simple  ). It would give players something to build towards as they put together their set of power, and would reward those that did commit to the format, without excluding those that didn't.

I know that there ARE a few non-proxy vintage tournaments around (e.g. the Canadian Vintage Championships at Canadian Nats, Vintage Championships at Gen Con), but they need to be raised in profile and in lustre. I would've loved to see that French tournament for a full set of beta power be no proxies.

Of course, the same old pro-proxy arguments would still be voiced: it's not fair to exclude people due to the availability of these cards. Under this system, we're not excluding them from the vintage community, and they can still play their deck for good prizes, but at the same time we're making the power mean something again. I think it's an elegant compromise between the two sides, and it's the best solution I can come up with. While it might be a little harder to implement than it is to set down on paper, I still think it's worth a shot.

I don't know exactly why this is a good idea. You let people try the format out and then, when it comes to "the real thing", just say "Nah, this isn't for you, smart boy. Now that you love the format, go buy some Moxen and then come back here."
Not that great.
And please, Workstation is terrible. It's nice to test decks and all, but it's not Magic.
The format needs proxyes and thats it.
I would go further and say we absolutely need unlimited proxyes tournaments to spread, for the reason that we would stop buying cards and Wizards would be obliged to do something about it. They would have to address to the Vintage comunity in a different and more cautelous way. Maybe this would make'em reprint cards. I don't know.
We're having a large Vintage tournament in my area with no proxyes. I'm not going simply because it has no proxyes. Not because I wouldn't be able to make a good deck with the cards I have, but because I won't support any kind of tournament that ignores the fact that people don't own the cards. And I hate Legacy with tutors (wich no-proxy Vintage is).

[Polynomial P]

Our local shop runs infinte proxy tournaments once a week, which is a great idea to allow people to decide they like vintage or test out a new deck without buying cards for it. Then to get into the 5-proxy power tournaments they have to obtain all the cards >$100. Even if they get the forces and whatnot, they are limited to budget decks until they buy drians, workshops, moxen, etc. The store owner does create original art proxies that do not count to the 5 proxy limit, but they are still $15 each (but look incredibly nice).

I came into vintage about 8 months ago. I was fortunate to have 4 forces, 40 duals, welders, wills, tutors, etc from when I played in 1999. I have since shellled out the big bucks for drains, 2 pieces of power, and a workshop. If i had not owned the majority of staple cards I would not be playing vintage now.

The cost to get into vintage is terrible. I think local shops should allow $5-entry infinite proxy tournaments once a week for store credit. This should get people excited about vintage and hopefully get them to buy (or win credit for) the staple cards they need.

As far as SCG and power tournaments, etc, it does not seem that 10 proxies are enough, although I am glad SCG went to 10. 12 seems right for now, 8 power and 4 other cards. This will allow people to play any deck (except uba stax) by proxying cards over $100. In the near future 12 proxies may not be enough if the prices for duals and forces continue to rise.

The best way to get people into vintage is to make it cheap and accessable to everyone.

[jpmeyer]

It looks like the problem is that it's not that there is an incredibly high starting point, but that there isn't a good way of easing into the format.  To keep using the skiing example, I only go skiing a few times a year, so even though I do have an interest in the hobby, it's just cheaper for me to rent each time I ski rather than buy own my own skis and boots.  If I were skiing a few times a week, I'd be up to the $350 that mikee spends a year really quickly so it would obviously make sense to buy my own equipment.

With Vintage, the power prices are just so high now that you can't expect anyone to buy them just to try.  But the way proxies work, there's no reason to ever buy.  Even a proxy tax setup still wouldn't really encourage people to buy.  If it costs you $12 to proxy 8 power cards and 4 Drains, assuming that those cards altogether are worth about $3,500, you would need to play about 300 tournies to break even.  If you're playing a tourney a week (and let's face it, you can't find a Type 1 tourney every week unless you are prepared to do a lot of driving), that's about $625 a year which I believe is well below the rate that those cards appreciate in value each year.  But if you make the proxy tax expensive, you'll again have trouble getting people to try out the format since nobody is going to want to spend like $50 to play in a tourney.

[Lunar]

I dunno...maybe its just my own experiences, but I never found it too difficult to get into T1...of course I got into T1 around 3 years ago when some of this stuff was cheaper (I got force of wills for $9 when I started and Duals were around $10) but even now that im rebuilding my collection (I traded off a lot of stuff to get into Jet Pearl and 1 Workshop) I havnt had too many problems...I got a playset of Force of wills (this time at just around $20) within a couple of days (1 is even signed) and If I need them duals will be readily availible (this doesnt even take into consideration that for over a year ive only played 5 color mana bases and have been pretty succesful with decks like Cerebral Assasin/Dragon and Stax of various forms...) Yes it is more difficult lately to get into some of this stuff but how bad is it to get duals..?

Lets say your a regular T2 or Extended player...regular tourney player or collector...and you become interested in T1...You trade some cards away to other T2 or Extended players (T2 kids always seem to have some T1 stuff and always ONLY want T2 stuff for trade) and start your T1 collection...then you decide you hate the format and want to get out of it....you trade your nice shiny T1 cards at a great price for your old T2 or Extended stuff back (and you are probably coming out ahead in this situation) and no longer have to worry about it...

The only time people who regularly play magic should have problems is if they want to have completely built decks for each format...I only have 2 T1 decks together right now (CA and UbaStax) and 1 cheap T2 deck....I dont know too many people who really have a lot more than this...

The accesability issue really only seems to be a problem to people who used to be into magic and sold/traded their good cards away a long time ago, or to people completely brand new to the game...I probably wouldnt send either of these players into full T1 magic anyways unless they are very nostalgic and im going to loan them a deck....

Most people (from my experience) who want to play competitive T1 magic though are currently or were very into other magic tourney scenes.

[Mr. Fantazy]

I think local shops should allow $5-entry infinite proxy tournaments once a week for store credit. This should get people excited about vintage and hopefully get them to buy (or win credit for) the staple cards they need.

This doesn't always work. I have a semi local player base of 10-15, and we're lucky to get 6, for exactly what you describe, except we actually pay cash. We usually have power and many T1 staples in the case so thats usually not a contributing factor.

The new problem seems to be unlimited proxiess makes the tournament not worth it to come to. Between that, the I can't afford a $30 proxie tax, and the if I cant play with an optimized deck so if you don't allow proxies I won't play, T1 players are busy making it difficult to justify tieing up prime time (any weekend day/night) for the chance to break even if a store is lucky.

I'm not sure where all the T1 is more popular then ever and is growing faster then ever is coming from. With few exceptions, major tournament attendance is down or holding steady, the high price of power makes prizes almost unrealistic at the price structure players think are acceptable.

The whole proxy debate truthfully shouldn't be run by the players, no offence but the truth of the matter is that in general players do not know what is best for them or the games survival. Look at any CCG game that caters to the whims of the player,s at best they are small niche games and at worst they're now dead and gone. Truthfully from my current point of view it is quickly becoming a no proxies, prizes based on attendance, and if survives great, if not there's plenty of games looking for table space.

I pretty much play T1 exclusively, the thought of not having it as a feature of my store is a troubling one, but the format is a mess, when it comes to the proxy debate and what players will and will not accept.

-Shawn

[Lunar]

I just dont get it...we really dont seem to have any of the problems described going on in Northern California...

At worst some tournies around here have seen a slight decrease in numbers, but this is actually a problem based on the fact that there have been so many compared to years past that people only are going to the best ones that they have notice about...

For example...

Last month up here we had the following tournies (Sacramento and Bay Area) *denotes power prize

Eudemonia 7*
Eudemonia 8*
Eudemonia 9*
Superstars*
Whos On First*
Adventures

thats 6 good tournies to go to for us here...with only 4 weeks generally in a month ( ) it makes it afully hard to go to all of them...beyond that we can look at the prizes and cost to play in them..These tournies are 10 proxie except the superstars one which is 5 plus $1 for each extra...

E7 $20 1st-Ancestral Recall 31 people
E8 $20 Timetwister 28 people
E9 $30 Black Lotus 43 people
Superstars $25+$1 for each extra proxie Mox Sapphire 12 people
Whos on First $15 Timetwister 14 people
Adventures $10 Playset of Tropical Islands (1 or 2 Unl others RV) 17 people

Thats an awfully good tourney run down in an area that probably has about 25 somewhat dedicated T1 players...the lotus one even drew in about 10 from SoCal...

the superstars one only had 12  :shock: but it fell on the same day as the adventures one and sacramento players chose for the short drive rather than the far drive so 17 went to adventures...no wonder there is small turnout at these 2...

The whos on first tourney only had 14 players....the lowest turnout ever for a T1 tourney at this location...This is bad obviously...but you have to look at what is actually going on...this tourney fell the week after the ancestral recall tourney, and a week before the mox sapphire tourney, and 2 weeks before both the other timetwister tourney and the lotus tourney....28 showed up for the E8 tourney for the twister even though it cost more......! Probably due to it being an entire weekend of T1 @ eudemonia...

I have a feeling that this is happening elsewhere...

Look at the last waterbury tourney....it was hudge as is expected lately...however it was still like 60 less people than the last one, I think the organizer even mentioned that he believed it was due to the rise in OTHER tourneys of similar type...

This year we have a whole gigantic power series in the SCG tournies...this previously didnt exist...it has flooded the market...I dont think its bad...in fact I think that a flooded market right now might be a good thing...it should be a learning experience for all organizers and it should set a good precident for what should happen in the future...

The fact that this is even a problem (proxies and an exciting, while struggling a bit, format) is really a good sign in my opinion...all new things have their problems, little things that need to be cleaned up...and they will, because believe it or not there IS a good core group of players and organizers around that will keep it afloat...

I fully expect the T1 scene near me stabilize a lot over the next few months...with this years Eudemonia Power Tournies done and gone there will be only about 2 or 3 quality t1 tournies a month up here...it should show improoved attendance...rather than 6 tournies with some having 43 and some only 12 we should see it average out again and go back to the 30-35 average attendance we used to see at each tourney...

In fact we might even grow a little at some good tournies from the players on the edge that got interested by the allure of playing for something like a black lotus (I know I saw a number of players at the black lotus tourney that were at the 9th Ed release the day before)

The tournies now I look at as advertising...and if you break even in your tourney then its free advertising....

You are getting tons of it free from players like myself posting here and on starcitygames and magicthegathering and talking about it in other local shops....etc etc etc...

The only mistake I see made consistantly from stores is that the prizes offered are sometimes lacking....not in quantity ($50 store credit is great for a small tourney) but something tried and tested here in Sacramento is rather than offering $50 store credit, the owner/organizer offers something like a beta demonic tutor, or a mana crypt (for small tournies) stuff that is interesting and exciting for a new player to get...this further should reinforce T1...rather than just letting the kid buy random terrible singles or boosters from exodus...

Adventures in comics and games is probably the best source for T1 in sacramento right now (its not great though) the owner went from 4-10 person no proxie, then 5 proxie tournies which gave store credit to 15-20 person tournies with 10 proxies offering everything from mana drain to a playset of duals to a beta sol ring to a DCI balance etc etc etc etc....as soon as the switch from 5 to 10 proxies and from store credit to cool cards happened the attendance doubled or even tripled...

would you play at a local tourney against 15 players paying $15 each to win a playset of signed force of wills? or would you rather play the same tourney for $80-90 in store credit?

Think about the question and put yourself in the shoes of a player new to the format who has had trouble getting stuff like forces for his deck (since he has been proxying them in his monoU deck for a while now) this might be espeically enticing for players since this prize will be useful for anybody looking to get into legacy as well...

I fully understand that store credit gives players more flexibility, but its not as neat...for a lot of players this will be their only shot at getting signed forces or a beta sol...

This also forces these players to get stuff for good decks...rather than letting them spend that $80 on stuff for sui black or kobolds you are forcing them to get involved into better stuff...especially if it is for things like mana drains...

Just my two cents

[xrizzo]

The whole proxy debate truthfully shouldn't be run by the players...

Oh really?  Who should run it?

[b-tings]

Oh really?  Who should run it?

Hear, hear!

Anyone who thinks that type one players are little children who don't know what's good for their format needs to take a look around. We have the most dedicated player base of any of the formats, and certainly one of the most intelligent. It's all well and good to say we need to look at things from a storeowner's perspective, because we do. But that doesn't mean the players, who make or break the format, should be disincluded or ignored. We need to take a look at things from all perspectives, because that's how we can come to a mutually beneficial situation, which is the only healthy solution.

[Mr. Fantazy]

Lunar,
I agree that the increased number of tournaments have impacted the attendance numbers. It is most likely the largest factor, but still not the only factor.

The proxy problem, which I was sticking to in this topic, is an ongoing one, and not likely to see an end soon. The rate at which additional proxies are called for is at an ever increasing rate. It is not unreasonable to think that a call for additional proxies will continue to increase. I don't believe this will settle down any time soon. I truly wish it would, but I don't see it happening.

Prizes are another matter also, but that would be a local shop problem, example we have a Time Walk for $15 entry, I really don't feel that prize structure is a problem, but what does become a problem is how to balance a prize structure to satisfy players, while guessing at numbers that are off. Add to that players with proxy issues and it's a difficult time.

I agree on "cards" being prefferable to store credit or cash, but the players have to be there also.

xrizzo,
There is not a good answer to that. If there had been I would have put it forth, because I really wish there was. Players will debate and debate and debate and keep changing things till the cows come home. The most important thing is consistency, right wrong, or somewhere between. Unfortunately WotC cannot address this issue beyond no proxy, even though it is almost a concensus that proxies are needed. The problem will contine to increase because now we not only have the normal decay of cards but cards are being removed from the players pool and graded. The proxy issue is going to keep increasing because the card pool will continue to decrease at an increasing pace, and every time you turn around there will be calls for more proxies. There will be no standard, the new players that are trying to get in will get caught up in the " your deck is not good here" syndrome, get frustrated and leave. The cure may have the same effect as the disease. It is most likely that it's no coincidence that the avg (T2) players life span is just about the lenght of time it takes for their cards to rotate out. People like consistency.

b-tings,
jesus christ, please stop the dramatics. No one compared T1 players to children. No one suggested players didn't matter. Players making decisions about the rules governing a game has been shown over and over to not be good. Such actions have time and again been either, a game that has a very small niche core or the last attempt to save a game from death, which again tends to move it into the niche.

-Shawn

[b-tings]

No one compared T1 players to children.

You implied that T1 players are not capable of proper decision-making (at least within this problem). You can think of a better group this compares us to? Retards, perhaps?

Players making decisions about the rules governing a game has been shown over and over to not be good. Such actions have time and again been either, a game that has a very small niche core or the last attempt to save a game from death, which again tends to move it into the niche.

Maybe a few examples would make your point stronger. Restating it certainly didn't.

[Roxas]

Hear, hear!

We have the most dedicated player base of any of the formats, and certainly one of the most intelligent.

Haha, good one.

Maybe a few examples would make your point stronger. Restating it certainly didn't.

If the Vintage-playing masses made the calls, Mishra's Workshop, Crucible of Worlds, and probably even Goblin Welder and Mana Drain would be restricted.  That's a series of examples worth a thousand. 

[b-tings]

Hear, hear!

We have the most dedicated player base of any of the formats, and certainly one of the most intelligent.

Haha, good one.

I don't get it.

If the Vintage-playing masses made the calls, Mishra's Workshop, Crucible of Worlds, and probably even Goblin Welder and Mana Drain would be restricted.  That's a series of examples worth a thousand. 

Well, it would be, if those things ever happened. Instead, it's a series of conjectures worth the sentence you gave it.

He said other games have dug themselves holes or downright collapsed due to letting players make the decisions. Which other games? Which decisions? What holes? What collapses?

[Vegeta2711]

Hear, hear!

We have the most dedicated player base of any of the formats, and certainly one of the most intelligent.

Haha, good one.

I don't get it.

That's the point.

[Mr. Fantazy]

I actually know xrizzo personally as he attends tournaments at my store. Did you ever stop to think he was actually asking a legitimate question, instead of some off handed comment? Notice how it was a question? See how he asked what I meant and what answer I had in mind? One day you'll possibly be mature enough to actually handle a conversation between adults.

Next thing, about the only Magic I play is Type 1, oh you didn't know that did you? Of course not, you were to busy trying to be clever. I include myself as a person in no position to make these decisions because I understand my desires as a player, can cloud my decisions about what's best for the game. Oh you didn't consider that either? Surprise surprise!

Look at this thread, or any other proxy thread, or any restriction thread, or any banning thread, how many do you see that actually end in consensus? None or at best very few and then usually it's more one side just decides to quit arguing.

As for examples;

Legends of the 5 Rings - Winner of "Worlds" helps drive the story line for the next year.
See many large L5R happenings? nope, there are stores that have a decent following but you most likely will never find two such stores close to each other.

Decipher (in general) - They have been having problems ever since losing the SWCCG licence, they have been going more and more to the players and giving them what they want. Three rounds of lay-offs, 2+ games cancelled later, and they'll be lucky if they're a company by the end of the year.

Yugioh - pushing more and more sets because the fans have demanded them, dropping commonality of reprints because rares are to hard to get for the kids, have all helped depress the game to the point where it most likely will fall to niche status unless the October banned list actually works, of course the current rumor is that they will cave to players demands. Attendance to sneak previews and regionals have dropped nearly 50% this year. The more the company gives the players what they think they want, the faster the game spirals down.

Now having given just a few examples I will say this there are definitely other factors involved here; L5R is a complicated game and requires an interest in a specific theme, etc. You can also see the same pattern in many RPG systems including TSR's D20. Again such things as Computer Games, more choices for players disposable income are also contributors, but that doesn't refute the pattern.

Anything else I can help you with? Maybe this time you can stop trying to read things that aren't in posts and actually respond rationally. I suppose we can hope.

-Shawn

[b-tings]

I actually know xrizzo personally as he attends tournaments at my store. Did you ever stop to think he was actually asking a legitimate question, instead of some off handed comment? Notice how it was a question? See how he asked what I meant and what answer I had in mind? One day you'll possibly be mature enough to actually handle a conversation between adults.

Next thing, about the only Magic I play is Type 1, oh you didn't know that did you? Of course not, you were to busy trying to be clever. I include myself as a person in no position to make these decisions because I understand my desires as a player, can cloud my decisions about what's best for the game. Oh you didn't consider that either? Surprise surprise!

I was going to say that I wasn't going to dignify any of that with a response, but that would just make me sound like an even more pedantic bastard, and I know I already came off as one in both previous posts. The best excuse I can offer is that I just worked out for the first time in three weeks and my adrenaline is firing on all cylinders. Still, a spade is a spade, I was a git and I apologize.

Look at this thread, or any other proxy thread, or any restriction thread, or any banning thread, how many do you see that actually end in consensus? None or at best very few and then usually it's more one side just decides to quit arguing.

This is very true, but that has less to do with the vintage community and more to do with arguments in general. As long as you have a wide enough audience with a wide enough background, there will be dissenters. This doesn't invalidate the ability of the community to make a decision (and forgive me if I'm mistaking your point here, I can't pick up on your context). It just means that that decision won't be a consensus one.

As for examples;

Legends of the 5 Rings - Winner of "Worlds" helps drive the story line for the next year.
See many large L5R happenings? nope, there are stores that have a decent following but you most likely will never find two such stores close to each other.

Decipher (in general) - They have been having problems ever since losing the SWCCG licence, they have been going more and more to the players and giving them what they want. Three rounds of lay-offs, 2+ games cancelled later, and they'll be lucky if they're a company by the end of the year.

Yugioh - pushing more and more sets because the fans have demanded them, dropping commonality of reprints because rares are to hard to get for the kids, have all helped depress the game to the point where it most likely will fall to niche status unless the October banned list actually works, of course the current rumor is that they will cave to players demands. Attendance to sneak previews and regionals have dropped nearly 50% this year. The more the company gives the players what they think they want, the faster the game spirals down.

Now having given just a few examples I will say this there are definitely other factors involved here; L5R is a complicated game and requires an interest in a specific theme, etc. You can also see the same pattern in many RPG systems including TSR's D20. Again such things as Computer Games, more choices for players disposable income are also contributors, but that doesn't refute the pattern.

These examples are all well and good, and as a store owner I'm sure you have a much better look at these games than I do. The underlying point, though, is a bit counter-intuitive. If your product is giving people what they want, it should be successful, if only from a sales perspective and not a gameplay one. This might be reflected in the decline in tournament play (Yugioh), but is there a corresponding sales decline?

Let's look at this from the other side for a second. VS, from all indicators, is thriving. What are they doing differently to crack the market where these other companies have failed? I don't want to drag this too far off topic, but this is the best way I can think of to pinpoint the failures of the other CCG companies, and see if player demands are the real cause of the trouble.

I also think that these examples, while relevant, demonstrate a different kind of problem. Proxies are, as far as I know, unique to Magic, and have to do with the limited availability of the best cards in the game. I think the L5R example is a poor one, since it deals with a single player having massive influence, not the player base as a whole. The closest parallel is Yugioh decreasing the rarity of reprints, but because they were flooding the market with new product at the same time, we don't have a control to be able to definitively point the finger at the availability issue. I can't say anything about Decipher's issues, because I couldn't really tell what they were from your post.

I have more ideas one why Proxies are a unique issue seperate from those you've posted, but it's 2:15 and the adrenaline has long since worn off. Better to be coherent tomorrow than babble today.

[Mr. Fantazy]

I was going to say that I wasn't going to dignify any of that with a response, but that would just make me sound like an even more pedantic bastard, and I know I already came off as one in both previous posts. The best excuse I can offer is that I just worked out for the first time in three weeks and my adrenaline is firing on all cylinders. Still, a spade is a spade, I was a git and I apologize.

I have had my share of moments too  , no big deal.

This is very true, but that has less to do with the vintage community and more to do with arguments in general. As long as you have a wide enough audience with a wide enough background, there will be dissenters. This doesn't invalidate the ability of the community to make a decision (and forgive me if I'm mistaking your point here, I can't pick up on your context). It just means that that decision won't be a consensus one.

What it also illustrates is that all groups believe they are right, and are calling for what they believe is best for the game overall. Overwhelmingly, in the gaming community, it has been shown that, for the most part, they are wrong. What they want is best for the group they game with, not because they are selfish, or stupid or anything like that, but because for the most part the group we game with is the extent of the game.
There are several places where T1 flourishes without proxies and several that probably would collapse without them. Considering that there are a little over 4000 members of TMD which is most likely a small sample of T1 players and only a handfull of them have posted on the subject, there seems to be a wide gulf between just a small percentage of the people playing. It seems to me it would be very hard to know whats best based on this sample.
It also has to do with consistency, which goes back to this

There will be no standard, the new players that are trying to get in will get caught up in the " your deck is not good here" syndrome, get frustrated and leave. The cure may have the same effect as the disease. It is most likely that it's no coincidence that the avg (T2) players life span is just about the lenght of time it takes for their cards to rotate out. People like consistency.

The underlying point, though, is a bit counter-intuitive. If your product is giving people what they want, it should be successful, if only from a sales perspective and not a gameplay one. This might be reflected in the decline in tournament play (Yugioh), but is there a corresponding sales decline?

Actually in games, people enjoy exploring new ideas, not what they wanted but a different approach. Again, the frame work is familiar (the rules) but cards are different, they do new things etc. Love or hate Mark Rosewater he generally knows what he's talking about. Giving people what they want right now will generally mean a quick spike then lagging interest, "Hey I have what I want now whats to look forward to?"

And yes sales for YuGiOh are off quite a bit in both the secondary market and the new product market.

Let's look at this from the other side for a second. VS, from all indicators, is thriving. What are they doing differently to crack the market where these other companies have failed? I don't want to drag this too far off topic, but this is the best way I can think of to pinpoint the failures of the other CCG companies, and see if player demands are the real cause of the trouble.

VS is NOT doing well. Stores that were in on the initial entry do have some players. VS is almost completely subsidized by YuGiOh sales. UpperDecks attempt to rival MTG may have been a bad move but this is mostly because they abandoned the original engine for the game which was a blast to play. Check around how many people play VS because its fun? There are indeed some but mostly it's because you can make money fairly easy playing. With 10k's being held almost weekly, and small numbers, hitting the gold is not to hard.
I would make this prediction, if Yugioh falls, watch for VS to follow shortly thereafter. It is unlikely UpperDeck will try to fill the cash void with their Sports Cards sales.

I also think that these examples, while relevant, demonstrate a different kind of problem. Proxies are, as far as I know, unique to Magic, and have to do with the limited availability of the best cards in the game. I think the L5R example is a poor one, since it deals with a single player having massive influence, not the player base as a whole. The closest parallel is Yugioh decreasing the rarity of reprints, but because they were flooding the market with new product at the same time, we don't have a control to be able to definitively point the finger at the availability issue. I can't say anything about Decipher's issues, because I couldn't really tell what they were from your post.

MTG barely scrapes the surface of proxy issues. There are companies that actually endorse on a certain level the use of proxies. They actually release pdf files of "fantasy cards", or work in conjunction with "player counsels" to make new sets or reworded cards from previous sets of now defunct games, or games on the way out. You would actually have to know the history of many of these games and seen the cycle that they've gone through to get where they are.

The main point though, is that there really is no way to set a standard of proxy quantity unless the company makes one. As I said WotC does realize there is an issue here but they won't endorse proxies because it is almost universally the end of the line for a game. If you look back at Richard Garfield's original concept and comments on the original game, limited availability of cards was built into MTG.

If no standard is reached the intent of helping new players enter the format, while worthwhile, will only serve to help alienate them, this will probably become more pronounced with more T1 tournaments each doing something different for proxies.

-Shawn

[defector]

The one and only and best number for proxies is 75, its a great game, lets let other people play it too.
tom

[Smmenen]

I think local shops should allow $5-entry infinite proxy tournaments once a week for store credit. This should get people excited about vintage and hopefully get them to buy (or win credit for) the staple cards they need.

This doesn't always work. I have a semi local player base of 10-15, and we're lucky to get 6, for exactly what you describe, except we actually pay cash. We usually have power and many T1 staples in the case so thats usually not a contributing factor.

The new problem seems to be unlimited proxiess makes the tournament not worth it to come to. Between that, the I can't afford a $30 proxie tax, and the if I cant play with an optimized deck so if you don't allow proxies I won't play, T1 players are busy making it difficult to justify tieing up prime time (any weekend day/night) for the chance to break even if a store is lucky.

I'm not sure where all the T1 is more popular then ever and is growing faster then ever is coming from. With few exceptions, major tournament attendance is down or holding steady, the high price of power makes prizes almost unrealistic at the price structure players think are acceptable.

The whole proxy debate truthfully shouldn't be run by the players, no offence but the truth of the matter is that in general players do not know what is best for them or the games survival. Look at any CCG game that caters to the whims of the player,s at best they are small niche games and at worst they're now dead and gone. Truthfully from my current point of view it is quickly becoming a no proxies, prizes based on attendance, and if survives great, if not there's plenty of games looking for table space.

I pretty much play T1 exclusively, the thought of not having it as a feature of my store is a troubling one, but the format is a mess, when it comes to the proxy debate and what players will and will not accept.

-Shawn

This post is insane.

How can you say that you wouldn't mind if Vintage went away?  Why do you say that the format is a mess?  The format is fucking great right now.  The PROBLEM is simple.  The barrier to enter is waaaaay too high.  The solution is equally simple: more proxies.  Hence why I started this thread in the first place.  Your luddite and destructive attitude is troubling, to say the least. 

The reason that players don't generally act in the games best interest is becuase, as you correctly observed, they are selfish. 

If I were to act selfishly, I would demand that no proxy tournaments be held, that more people sanction etc to protect my investement.  But I think that perspective assumes too much.  I am selfish, but I also want Vintage to grow becuase it is the format I love.  I have been advocating proxies for some time - I have written on it over a year ago and before.

The bottom line is that the company can't decide what's best for Vintage either becuase they are constrained by the fact that they can't take that step to endorse proxies.  We can.  SCG and other big hosts have stepped up and the response has been very positive.

I do not think that Vintage can exist, long-term, on a small local scene on a week-to-week basis becuase the format isn't dynamic enough.  Block rotates year to year and Standard often goes through dramatic changes.  Vintage is best left to a monthly scene or large Grand Prix type tournaments, imo. 

[Revvik]

Why not take the ULTIMATE unselfish approach and advocate reprints?  Regardless of whether WotC will or won't - that's not the point of what I'm saying.

I'm saying that if you want Vintage to grow regardless of the damage to your investment, and were serious about your commitment, then you would have no problem with Wizards reprinting dual lands, power, and some of the high-dollar cards.
And I practice what I preach - with all the money I've sunk into buying Moxen and blue power, I would rejoice at the news of reprints (my Unlimiteds would be slightly more pimp than Xth Edition).

Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen.  The game was designed with collectability in mind, and we have to overcome the errors of the past (small print runs, etc.) in order for our format to grow.

[Mr. Fantazy]

Steve,
You know damn well I did not say I wouldn't mind Vintage going away. I did say that from a business aspect Vintage has become a risky prospect at least at a local level. Of course, you're not concerned about the local level (and I'm not saying you should be) which feeds directly to my point about players being blind about the big picture, and before someone else tries to read something into this post that I didn't say, I include myself in that group. Truthfully, I find trying to use some dramatic stance, using things that weren't a part of the conversation, insane, but thats just me.

The format, if your talking about the metagame and the state there of, is absolutely great. Of course thats not what we're talking about in this thread. If your talking about the health of the format regarding the proxy issue, then I would have to conclude that you agree that it's a mess, considering your posts that continually call for more proxies. I don't necessarily disagree with you. The reality is that on a store level I have players that won't play in non proxy events and players that won't play in heavy proxy events. You may not like it, or may not accept it, and hell it may only be a problem I'm having, but that hardly diminshes the fact for me.

I would think that you could extrapolate from my comments that I don't believe that any of this "selfishness" is malign but rather an actual concern and desire for T1 to thrive. As the old saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

I want T1 to thrive both on a personal and professional level, and I try very hard to help that happen, as you do.

Revvik,
I have owned power for a long time and have no problem with reprinting, however as you pointed out, thats not going to happen.

-Shawn