It's time to have a Serious Discussion about Proxies Again

[Tychoides]

Forget proxies, power needs to be reprinted, and here's why:

1) It won't "undermine" the confidence of the players (at least not enough to make a difference in the grand scheme of things). Sure, there will be some collectors upset, but most of those people play Vintage and I would like to think that they'd want their format to grow and be more accessable and popular. More importantly, I don't think it'll devalue the cost of power much if at all (and IMO, it's inflated quite a bit right now by the look of a glance on eBay...) because many people (myself included) are willing to pay more to have "pimped" out decks with black borders, foil, foreign, etc.

2) It won't screw up other formats if you simply ban them in all but Vintage at release.

3) It could increase the value of other cards. If power becomes reasonable to purchace and play Vintage, there will be more demand for cards that are mostly Vintage specific.

4) WotC would make more money, so it's beneficial to them. After all, they don't make money off the secondary market and a reprint would actually make Vintage players buy new cards and get new Vintage players. I don't know about you guys, but the people I know who play Vintage almost exclusively don't buy packs of anything and just get singles (once again, less money for WotC and more for the secondary market).

Anyway, that's just my thoughts on the subject.

[Lou]

I am not sure if I read it here, or heard it elsewhere, but WoTC could not reprint Power even if they wanted to.  According to what I heard or read (marijuana affects the memory), when Garfield sold the rights of the game to WoTC, some cards were specifically listed as not to be reprinted.  Hence we have a reprint list, and I am sure it has been said before, the cards on the list WILL NOT be reprinted.  I am not sure what the qualifications are for a card to be put on the list now a days, but I am sure someone out there can fill that blank in.

[Revvik]

There is a Reserve List, yes - a list of cards that will never ever ever be reprinted or else WotC will have to sit in the corner and go to bed without dessert.  Power is of course on this list - although the entire history and reasons behind the list I do not know.

[Yare]

There is a Reserve List, yes - a list of cards that will never ever ever be reprinted or else WotC will have to sit in the corner and go to bed without dessert. Power is of course on this list - although the entire history and reasons behind the list I do not know.

Is there anybody that DOES know the history behind it?

[tidal kraken]

The reserved list doesn't mean jack shit. They've reprinted cards on it before (clone and juggernaught spring to mind).

I, personally, don't have a problem with power reprint (and yes, I'm fully powered). However, from Wizards perspective, I can see why they wouldn't because of collectors. Then, on the other hand, wouldn't they make a wad of cash if they were to reprint it? The packs would fly off the shelves quicker than Pamela and Tommy's sex tape.

Meh, just my $0.02.

[forests failed you]

I actually like it when people who play with proxies take the time to make them look fairly nice.  it goes a long way when you draw a picture over the top of that basic plains.  Anyways, I appreciate it.

[Eddie]

There is a Reserve List, yes - a list of cards that will never ever ever be reprinted or else WotC will have to sit in the corner and go to bed without dessert. Power is of course on this list - although the entire history and reasons behind the list I do not know.

Is there anybody that DOES know the history behind it?

The reason they started with the list is called "Chronicles".

[dandan]

When Wizards changed the cardface they actually said that it would allow them to reprint cards that they wouldn't have been previously allowed to. In addition they ARE allowed to print 'premium' versions of anything such as Foil or Textless. Although Wizards have tried to avoid Textless permanents, it would be pretty silly to claim it would be confusing to have Textless Moxen when Mr. XY Fireball doesn't cause confusion.

In addition to the above, Wizards have changed the reprint list before and could certainly do it again if they wanted to. A limited run of white bordered new layout Power cards would almost certainly not cause a decrease in prices of the real thing, given that the effect of widespread use of proxies (defacto reprinting of Power on Plains) has caused price levels to rise due to growing interest in Vintage and consequent growing demand for Vintage cards.

From Randy Buehler's article about the Reserved List

Commons and uncommons from Limited Edition (Alpha and Beta) were removed from the reserved list due to overwhelming public support for this change.

[MuzzonoAmi]

A reprint of Vintage staples is inevitable as long as the format continues to grow (and thus make money for WotC). Power may be a long way off, but I could easily see something like FoW being reprinted in a set where blue was so weak that it wouldn't wreck Standard, or a textless Mana Drain being made as a judge promo.

[Smmenen]

My whole Gencon experience made me realize quite forcefully something quite important:

Vintage is completey inaccessible right now.  The prices are just astronomical on everything - not just power but basic staples.    People would be completely stupid to try to enter the format right now - esp say if you just recently got into magic and you are fascinated by Vintage.  There is no way in hell you can even get close to entering this format.  Something should be done about it.

Type one prices are a huge bubble.  The cards aren't going to move and they can't keep going up.  People WANT to play Vintage, but the barrier to play has never been higher. 

[prosbloom225]

The real reason they will not reprint power is because the game is a ccg.  As a collectible card game, the cards are supposed to rack up huge values.  By reprinting the cards and increasing the number of the cards that can see play, the inherent value of the originals will decrease.  This will thouroughly anger johnny, who just bought a mox for 300$, only to see the price drop 100$.  Think about what cards wizards has reprinted, can you think of any that are worth over 50$?

[Mordred]

I know it's been mentioned before but I also think 10 proxy is a good number.  I know prices are high on everything like dual lands, fetch lands, a set of FoWs, and all the stupid cards I've bought over the years.  But I think that's a good thing.

While in a perfect world you could walk into a bar, order a drink light up a smoke and sit down across from a fellow gamer and say, "Howdy stranger, feel like a game?"  After which you'd both pull out a deck and play for ante, laughs, and the joy of the game.

However, this is the year 2005, and if you said "Howdy stranger, feel like a game?" you'd most likely end up in court for sexual harrassment.  Aside from that, the funnest games of Magic are (in my opinion) at large and competitive tournaments.  Type one is never going to be as popular and accessible let's say...darts.

The price of "staples" up to about the value of dual lands is to me the "buy in" of Type 1.  The more serious and devoted the player gets, the more time and money that player will devote.  But where should the line be drawn as to how much cash the player should have to fork over per card?

The answer?  Very simple.  Twenty-five US dollars.  So rock on with 10 proxy tournaments in my opinion.  Theres places to play in 10 proxy tournaments and from my experience at 40-60 man tournaments with power for the prize, the compition is usually pretty stiff.

The fact that Gen-Con is no-proxy is part of what makes it so fun to me.  Type one isn't "inacessible" right now, but if you want to top 8 at Gen-Con you're going to need some money cards, but that's fine...it's Gen-Con.

Other than that, you can peice together a deck for a 10 proxy event for about the cost of a set of golf-clubs.  A fish-player can do this for about the cost of a bowling-ball.

[adamdod]

i had these exact same thoughts years ago when I ran the CT T1 tournaments that waterbury is modeled after in the late 90's..
then a lotus was 200-250 and moxes were 125-150..  and I thought "this stuff can't go up any higher"

and here we still sit today with 1000$ lotuses and 500$ moxes and 100$ mana drains...

you either want vintage to grow and stay a playable format for everyone or you are just too worried about keeping your investment in power cards..

My whole Gencon experience made me realize quite forcefully something quite important:

Vintage is completey inaccessible right now.  The prices are just astronomical on everything - not just power but basic staples.    People would be completely stupid to try to enter the format right now - esp say if you just recently got into magic and you are fascinated by Vintage.  There is no way in hell you can even get close to entering this format.  Something should be done about it.

Type one prices are a huge bubble.  The cards aren't going to move and they can't keep going up.  People WANT to play Vintage, but the barrier to play has never been higher. 

[Darkmage]

The price of "staples" up to about the value of dual lands is to me the "buy in" of Type 1.  The more serious and devoted the player gets, the more time and money that player will devote.  But where should the line be drawn as to how much cash the player should have to fork over per card?

The answer?  Very simple.  Twenty-five US dollars.  So rock on with 10 proxy tournaments in my opinion.  Theres places to play in 10 proxy tournaments and from my experience at 40-60 man tournaments with power for the prize, the compition is usually pretty stiff.

While I agree that 10 proxy is fine (I just started playing vintage and my deck is only $600 or so), I'd like to point something out.  Let's say you want to play Uba/Bazaar Stax in a ten proxy tournament.  You proxy up the 6 Mana Power and 4 Workshop.  You still need 4 Bazaar.  SCG values those at $160 when the condition is heavily played.  $160 is a lot more than $25.  Oh, and you still need Mana Crypt. 

Aside:
(While looking at prices I notice I lost about $28 when I traded away my two promotional duresses...)

[Disburden]

Vintage is completey inaccessible right now.  The prices are just astronomical on everything - not just power but basic staples.    People would be completely stupid to try to enter the format right now - esp say if you just recently got into magic and you are fascinated by Vintage.  There is no way in hell you can even get close to entering this format.  Something should be done about it.

Type one prices are a huge bubble.  The cards aren't going to move and they can't keep going up.  People WANT to play Vintage, but the barrier to play has never been higher. 

You're 100% right on this one. I own Drains, duals, Time walk and One mox Jet. That's it. I know some people don't even have that, but I've paid 300% more than someone that bought these cards 3 years ago, just to play this great format I enjoy. That to me seems like highway robbery! I love this format for all it is and all you can do with it. Plus the people that play it are just great. But I can't see what it's going to be like three years from now. People will want to play, but can't, because a mox will be 1,000$ like a black lotus is now. That's just out of control to me.

[Machinus]

Type one prices are a huge bubble.  The cards aren't going to move and they can't keep going up.  People WANT to play Vintage, but the barrier to play has never been higher. 

Does your usage of "bubble" carry the typical connotations of insustainability?

[Dozer]

What we need is a staggered tournament system. All the local Mox tournies can run on 10, 12, 15 proxies no problem. But there should also be other, higher profile vintage tournaments for bigger prizes, without proxies. This would allow people to play vintage with proxies, but would also prevent them from being able to play without proxies (I told you it was simple  ). It would give players something to build towards as they put together their set of power, and would reward those that did commit to the format, without excluding those that didn't.

I know that there ARE a few non-proxy vintage tournaments around (e.g. the Canadian Vintage Championships at Canadian Nats, Vintage Championships at Gen Con), but they need to be raised in profile and in lustre. I would've loved to see that French tournament for a full set of beta power be no proxies.

I stated a while ago that this is exactly what we currently have. If you want to, take a look here. I believe the general structure is already there, and the task now is to fill it with players.

According to what I read in this thread, most people (including myself, I might say) abhor the notion of unlimited proxies, and unlimited proxies don't make the format fun, either. We all love playing with real cards. An answer to the question "how many proxies make the format attractive for everybody" is not in sight. So I'd put the responsibility on the local TO's to figure out how many proxies their players want. And I also put it to the players to tell their respective TO's how many proxies they want. There can be no general solution. Different stores have different play groups with different collections and feelings. Figure out what your local limit should be, so that the players can play the way they want to and meanwhile still have lower-proxy tournaments (Waterbury and SCG come to my mind) and the big non-proxy tournaments (Vintage Champs) to aspire to.

A universal solution does not exist, so arrange what you need locally.

As for the prices, Steve is right, but I don't see the bubble bursting anytime soon. For a lot of players, Invasion Block counts as "old". For players like us, "old" starts maybe before Tempest Block. The perception of the cards is so very different that I see the bubble bursting only when another two or three blocks go by so that the percentage of "old" cards wanes. I believe that eventually, a deck will come to pass that uses the power acceleration covered with 10 proxies and uses comparatively new cards for the rest (say, nothing older than Invasion) to be not only competitive, but a real force. And yes, I know Fish exists. But only when a huge part of the successful decks relies heavily on "new" cards will the bubble burst. Until that time, and even then, proxies will be needed to cover the unaffordable.

(Although the danger still exists and is very real that Legacy will push Vintage back into relative obscurity.)

Dozer

[Smmenen]

Vintage is completey inaccessible right now.  The prices are just astronomical on everything - not just power but basic staples.    People would be completely stupid to try to enter the format right now - esp say if you just recently got into magic and you are fascinated by Vintage.  There is no way in hell you can even get close to entering this format.  Something should be done about it.

Type one prices are a huge bubble.  The cards aren't going to move and they can't keep going up.  People WANT to play Vintage, but the barrier to play has never been higher. 

You're 100% right on this one. I own Drains, duals, Time walk and One mox Jet. That's it. I know some people don't even have that, but I've paid 300% more than someone that bought these cards 3 years ago, just to play this great format I enjoy. That to me seems like highway robbery! I love this format for all it is and all you can do with it. Plus the people that play it are just great. But I can't see what it's going to be like three years from now. People will want to play, but can't, because a mox will be 1,000$ like a black lotus is now. That's just out of control to me.

I think this, once again, is a great example of what I learned at Gencon.

To answer Machinus question, a bubble is unsustainable, but that doesn't mean it will burst.  There are two things that can happen to a bubble - it can burst and the prices can fall, or it can sit as it does, but the market shrinks.  I think the latter will happen.  The prices will stay high, but the turnover rate will stagnate.  Fewer dealers will bring power to buy and sell and more people will be sitting on power. 

There is only one thing that matters right now and one thing alone: tournament attendance.  Vintage is at a point where it could face a serious reversal.  It isn't just Legacy that is causing it.   

Tournament attendance has probably peaked already and certainly I don't see the Vintage Championship ever being 8 rounds again.  We MUST turn this around.  I have said it before: Stagnation is death.  If tournament attendance doesn't grow, then it will shrink. 

The problem is that there is no way to get fresh blood into Vintage at the moment.  People sell out all the time.  However, there must be more than just one person to fill that spot.  With legacy causing the price of staples to reach record highs and with the price of basic power out of people like Disburden's reach, how can anyone entering the tournament scene ever hope to dream of actually owning the cards?

We have bitched and moaned about the problems in the format before (mostly related to speed of the format), but this is the first real crisis we have faced in some time. 

This is basic economics folks. 

1) The price of non-power staples is exhorbenantly high.  Fish costs many hundreds of dollars more than any type two deck right now. 

2) The price of power makes it impossible for people to have a long-term goal of actually acquring power any way but by winning it

3) the price of power makes more people want to sell out.  At some point these prices will cause every person, including myself to sell out. It isn't just the opportunity cost.  But that is important.

a) If my deck is worth, say $5,000 - everyone has to ask, is it worth it - do I get more utility out of being able to use these cards than I would putting that money toward some other use?

b) The risk of owning such valuable cards.  Ray Robillards problem at Gencon is paradigmatic.  I left my deck at my table TWICE.  And I have alot of VIntage experience.  At some point, just the risk of losing your cards makes the tournament experience unenjoyable.

Bottom line is that the incentives are such that people are leaving Vintage.  Yet it is not possible for new people to fill those spaces for reasons (1) and (2).  Add to the fact that the experience needed to perform well in vintage is pretty high combined with the difficulty of decks that are viable and you have a real problem for the format. 

[Purple Hat]

I got my power stolen and had to trade my worshops, library and drains to get it back.  now when I go to 10 proxy tournaments I leave 10 cards at home: my 8 pieces of power and 2 bazaars.  if you gave me more proxies I'd just leave more cards at home.  but I question if there's really going to come a point where proxy escalation will not lead to unlimited proxies.  if increasing proxies causes interest in the format and therefore prices of non proxyable cards (duals, force of will, etc) to increase won't we find ourselves in 6 months saying "we need to go to 20 proxies" because everyone needs duals or forces to play and can't be expected to proxy power, drains/workshops/bazaars, forces and duals all at once, can they? and 6 months later it will be some other card and 6 months after that.  I don't see adding more proxies as a solution to this problem.  eventually you go to unlimited proxies.  also proxies lead to problems like kiki Jiki cloning your opponent's creatures cus you didnt' put the card text on it.  if you're gonna proxy a mox, fine everyone knows what that does, if you're gonna proxy random cards for your deck it's a problem.

Hale

[Revvik]

Steve - You're basically asking how do we make the format more accessible (and easier on the wallet) when the resource for it, Power cards and Vintage staples, is a nonrenewable resource that is in demand by a higher number every day - before that number peaks and people lose interest and the format stagnates.
More proxies is a convenient delaying of the inevitable.  That's all it is.  Proxies gives people a taste, and they want more, and it exacerbates the problem when they come to realize that they can't afford the Power cards and are driving up the cost of the cards they can afford - making it harder for the next person to join in.

It's like being a new automobile driver in the modern age.  You're in a time of ever-increasing gas prices, but you buy in anyways.  Your consumption of oil doesn't help the problem - using it up only increases demand.

Proxy formats caused an explosion of Vintage interest, and you want to find out how to not only stop the recession you see coming, but continue the expansion.  The simplest answer is to call for more proxies - it worked in the past, why not now?
I think it will only cause even more harm to the prices of the real thing and the staples themselves.  Wizards may have helped the situation by producing pseudo-Dual Lands - newer players can use this cheaper alternative that they may have found drafting.  But overall, this isn't a good fix because it doesn't help Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, and the artifact accelerants reduce in price.  Thus, it will only cause an influx of budget players who proxy the cards, and attribute to the problem of increasing the prices of Vintage staples yet again.

You're asking what can be done to fight the nature of a collectible card game.  Vintage has a special problem in itself in that not only is it a format filled with design mistakes, but the format itself is a mistake.
It is defined by cards that were printed in short runs and discontinued due to power reasons - cards like Mana Drain, Library of Alexandria, Mishra's Workshop, and even Chains of Mephistopheles are all high-demand Vintage cards printed a decade ago, and all the cards printed could not sate the appetites of every Vintage player on this site with a playset.  No matter what the proxy limit you set, cards like these will jump higher and higher in price as time goes by (until you set it at 75, in which case I'll see you at the Legacy tables).

This problem seems solvable only by a little R'n'R: Restriction¹, or Reprinting².  Like it or not, the very nature of the problem of accessibility of Type 1 Magic requires us doing something to lower the price of our very own cards.  These are two solid ways to do it.

¹: Restricting certain cards on a level of annihilating the format would solve the problem of acquiring play sets of Mana Drain & Mishra's Workshop and other problematic cards.  Yes, Wizards has never restricted cards in Vintage due to price concerns (disclaimer: that I know of).  However, if we're going crawl out of this 'hole' that we've dug ourselves in (cutting ourselves off from new players), then drastic times & drastic measures, etc. etc.

²: I do not mean reprinting power, since the outcry would be great and it would honestly mean Wizards has died.  Reprinting of specific cards in Vintage could drastically alleviate the cost of playing Type 1.  I don't pretend to know the specifics - something would obviously have to be done to prevent a contamination of Type 2 and careful selection of what to reprint would be necessary.

I know some people out there disagree strongly with what I've posted.  Please, keep it in check and remind yourself that I'm not the one making the decision.  If you feel the need to lash out; well then, I probably don't like you anyways. 

[Smmenen]

Steve - You're basically asking how do we make the format more accessible (and easier on the wallet) when the resource for it, Power cards and Vintage staples, is a nonrenewable resource that is in demand by a higher number every day - before that number peaks and people lose interest and the format stagnates.

Yes, except that there is a huge difference.  Oil is consumed.  POwer isn't a non renewable resource.  It is constantly recycled.  The problem is that it is too expensive to buy, even recycled.  That is a significant difference.  I think that number has already peaked - I'm looking for ways to a) stem the bleeding and b) actually reverse that bleeding with future growth.  The problem is that if we aren't growing we are shrinking siply because people quit magic all the time.

More proxies is a convenient delaying of the inevitable.  That's all it is.  Proxies gives people a taste, and they want more, and it exacerbates the problem when they come to realize that they can't afford the Power cards and are driving up the cost of the cards they can afford - making it harder for the next person to join in.

It's like being a new automobile driver in the modern age.  You're in a time of ever-increasing gas prices, but you buy in anyways.  Your consumption of oil doesn't help the problem - using it up only increases demand.

The alternative is what?  Abandon Vintage?  Let it shrivel? Die?  Not while there is a breath in my body.  That seems to be what you are suggesting.  It may be that we are delaying the inevitable - but delay, believe it or not, is survival.  The goal is survival short-term or long-term.  If we slough off a huge part of the player base or lose key tournament outlets, they may never be regained.

In other words, if SCG drops the power nine tournaments or if the Waterbury ended, it would take alot more effort to bring either back - many orders of magnitude of effort - than it would to sustain what we already have. 

You're asking what can be done to fight the nature of a collectible card game.  Vintage has a special problem in itself in that not only is it a format filled with design mistakes, but the format itself is a mistake.

This has always been the case though.  There are two options: let it stagnate and die, or fight for its survival.  This isn't oil - keeping Vintage around isn't going to destroy our lungs and our environment.  It isn't a "necessary evil" as the automobile might be.  Vintage is a game and I see no reason to stand by and keep my mouth shut when changes can be made now.  More proxies is the solution - at least for the time being.  And if more and more proxies are needed, so be it. 

The bigger problem isn't where do we stop with the number of proxies - the bigger problem is - will there be sufficient tournaments to play Vintage in that debating proxies is even worth our time?  If the standard number of proxies rising creates problems, there are solutions.  Solutions that are much easier than trying to figure out where we build Vintage after a collapse. 

[Revvik]

If anything, what I was saying wasn't "Give up and die."  It was more or less along the lines of "I think that is the wrong step - I have different alternatives."  And Power is essentially nonrenewable - if I were to quit today and sell off my stuff, I'd be replaced by one person - the buyer, who would buy at an inflated price compared to what I bought at.  And if the buyer was a collector of Power cards, then I'm not even replaced - my resources weren't recycled.

We can delay it with more proxies, or we can discover a real solution.  THAT is what I was getting at - not "why bother with more proxies, this format will collapse anyways."  This format will collapse if all we do is go "heh more proxies again."

This isn't oil - keeping Vintage around isn't going to destroy our lungs and our environment.  It isn't a "necessary evil" as the automobile might be.  Vintage is a game and I see no reason to stand by and keep my mouth shut when changes can be made now.  More proxies is the solution - at least for the time being.  And if more and more proxies are needed, so be it.

You're taking my loose metaphor waaay too far there 
More proxies may delay for six months while we figure out what can be done about it - but it will never be a permanent solution.

The bigger problem isn't where do we stop with the number of proxies - the bigger problem is - will there be sufficient tournaments to play Vintage in that debating proxies is even worth our time?  If the standard number of proxies rising creates problems, there are solutions.  Solutions that are much easier than trying to figure out where we build Vintage after a collapse.

Is there something you know here that I don't?  I don't feel as though tournament scenes are ending.  I have heard that Ray Robillard had a crisis with his involvement with Waterbury, and I haven't heard much about TMD Championships anymore.  But if anything, the venues I've attended have only grown in size since I first started showing, and the reports on player numbers in tournaments I've read about seem to be on a steady rise. 

And if there is a collapse, I doubt it will happen before Santa brings me my Lotus next year 

[Smmenen]

If anything, what I was saying wasn't "Give up and die."  It was more or less along the lines of "I think that is the wrong step - I have different alternatives."  And Power is essentially nonrenewable - if I were to quit today and sell off my stuff, I'd be replaced by one person - the buyer, who would buy at an inflated price compared to what I bought at.  And if the buyer was a collector of Power cards, then I'm not even replaced - my resources weren't recycled.

We can delay it with more proxies, or we can discover a real solution.  THAT is what I was getting at - not "why bother with more proxies, this format will collapse anyways."  This format will collapse if all we do is go "heh more proxies again."

Why?  I readily concede the fact that there is a serious problem if people don't think of themselves as being able to get the cards even "at some point" .  This limits Growth, but that doesn't mean that the format will actually collapse with more proxies.  At some point people will become irritated with more and more proxies - but to say that it will inevitably collapse assumes too much.  It assumes that there aren't solutions ugly proxies and the like. 

Bottom line is that you have no real solid evidence or reason to suggest that the format will inevitably collapse with more and more proxies permitted at events like SCG.  If SCG would up their proxy limit to 12 and then say 20 in 2006 and 30 in 2008, who's to say that that would lead to collapse?

The bigger problem isn't where do we stop with the number of proxies - the bigger problem is - will there be sufficient tournaments to play Vintage in that debating proxies is even worth our time?  If the standard number of proxies rising creates problems, there are solutions.  Solutions that are much easier than trying to figure out where we build Vintage after a collapse.

Is there something you know here that I don't?  I don't feel as though tournament scenes are ending.  I have heard that Ray Robillard had a crisis with his involvement with Waterbury, and I haven't heard much about TMD Championships anymore.  But if anything, the venues I've attended have only grown in size since I first started showing, and the reports on player numbers in tournaments I've read about seem to be on a steady rise. 

And if there is a collapse, I doubt it will happen before Santa brings me my Lotus next year 

Vintage Champs fell by 30 or so players this year.  Last Waterbury was like 50 less than the previous.  The SCG tournaments have actually seen an uptick - but that's also because they doubled the number of legal proxies. 

[Revvik]

Vintage Champs fell by 30 or so players this year.  Last Waterbury was like 50 less than the previous.  The SCG tournaments have actually seen an uptick - but that's also because they doubled the number of legal proxies. 

I'll concede that point since you actually have the numbers and I'm just going off my shady memory.
Now, on to the problem of proxies.

Before real proxy tournaments (we played around a bunch with proxied decks) I bought a set of Tropical Islands for around $40.  I think I overpaid then.
After the advent of proxy tournaments to allow newer players into the format, my same Tropical Islands are going to sell for $25 or so if I'm unlucky.

Now, if we were to increase the proxy count to 30 by 2008, and the player base and price jumps as it did from an increase of five proxy to ten, who is to say that my same Tropical Islands would still be in reach of new players?
I do not think they will.  Yes, I'm speculating, but I don't think I'm doing it blindly.

[Whatever Works]

so far gencon championships have redone art for timetwister, black lotus, ancestral recall... The only cards they havent touched yet are moxes (which they wont do very likely), and time walk because amy weber is probably the hardest person to convinse to do another painting...

This being considered (along with recent reprints of sol ring, ak, tog, gemstone mine, and several other type 1 staples) is it possible that after next gencon (where time walk will be redone I assume) that perhaps they will release reprints of the power 9 with the new artwork and new borders as promo's in some quantity??

I dont think it will happen, but it certainly is believable... Though I am sure collectors would horde those promos just like some of the gencon dealers who owned 200+ of each mox (which to me is also a huge huge problem)...

The best idea I have in general is to make the staples affordable... Perhaps the equivilent of chronicals 2... This would be a great set for WoTC because it would attract to legacy players... and vinatage players... It would allow for reprints of cards like gorrilla shaman, and other key budget cards... along with some of the more expensive vintage cards like intuition, ak, old man of the sea, and perhaps the most played cards from gp philly (because prices could skyrocket if the gp is a sucess)...


Kyle Leith

[Yare]

Is increasing the minimum deck size completely out of the question?  I just see this is a sort of backdoor way to try to make the every card on the restricted list less effective by lowering the probability of drawing any one broken card.  In this way, expensive cards become less important because you are less likely to break the game open with them because you can't draw them as easily.

Oh, and I feel like Dozer's scenario of individualizing each local area to the metagame is probably the best way to go about solving the proxy issue if we were to take that route.

I think, if nothing else, until the proxy rate is high enough so as to not make entering the vintage format cost prohibitive (whatever number that is) the format will stagnate.  Now, if this means 20 or 30 proxies, then so be it, but nobody is going to buy into this format when you can play online for free or print your own proxies for free for your own homegrown metagame.  I mean honestly, how many of you guys would spend $1000 to start playing a variant of some activity that you're not very good at to begin with and a very high initial learning curve?  Beyond that, $1000 is probably conservative.

[MaxxMatt]

 I think that, especially when we are talking about possibilities, we should think about what the people want and not about what the people desire

Even if I own P9s, I would prefer playing in an highly competitive enviroment. Proxing or non proxing things is only one of the instruments that my mind construct to build and play in this ideal place.


0) On the other hand, people want to play for Money or Cards that can be transmuted in Money. If there would be a world enviroment with the same rules, they would challange themselves for both the glory and the prices, but the latter move people everywhere in the world, while the first one can move only a few of them.

Talking about REAL events and REAL world's examples:

1) From an objective point of view, GenCon, THE World Championship's Tournament had a little attendance, if compared to what it should have represented for every players and compared to other similar events of the other formats.
Have this Non Proxy event blocked all the people at their home?
Have this Non Proxy event stopped them from coming from all over the world?
Uhm... not at all. Or at least, it wasn't the ONLY reason for sure.

The lack of the the "arguments" I wrote on point 0) is the MAIN reason.
Who would battle for an artwork and a few moneys but spending so much to travel all over the world?
Who can come in America to join an event without being AT LEAST menthally satistified and stimulated by a FAT price?

...look at what have happened in your country.
Only 128 among the americans decided to come and play when they have easier access than any other people in the world. AND THIS SHOULD have been the Outstanding among the possible tourneys available....

Try to think about what the people want and do your move according to this reasoning.

A) - Do People want money and valuable prices?
Load them P9s - they would usually resold them, so you should have new fresh prices almost forever( as starcitygames did from an year since now )

B) - Do People want Vintage to come back as possible largely played and Wizards' authorized format?
Involve ANYONE on playing Vintage with prices and cards and most of all DCI's Classific!
A lot of people are thrilled about it.
A lot of people refuse to take with the needed value any non sanctioned tournamant.


C) - Do People not own p9s, that could allow them to be rewarded as much as the Powered players?
Try not to focus on Proxy, but REWARD the unpowered players with prices comparable to the Powered ones, too.
There would ALWAYS be Unpowered People that would not play because they are Unpowered. Stimulate them to play with their cards for slightly subpar rewards. Contruct a Meta-Tourney ( a tourney in a tourney ) in each tourneys. All people would concurr to different but proportionated goals.
Especially because Reprinting is not possible and satisfing all the growing audience with "!!! P9s for all !!!!", this is the only pragmatic thing to do.


Preparing people to this organizing conduct, would probably prevent the low attendance to SO MUCH IMPORTANT events such as the T1-World Championship!!!
Playing with Proxies for all the year and forcing people dropping them in the most important event in the same year is sadistic and counter intuitive.
A lot of the usual players have been taken out from the competition because of it.

Try to focus what weekly happens in Europe ( 90-100+ players ) and that happens in the periodical HUGE reunions.
Compare them to what happens in America.

America has 50-70 players at the weekly events ( with some obvious spikes ) and 120-170 players at the best events ( starcity ones above all ).
Europe has 70-100 players at the weekly events and 200+ players at the reunions. Try to compare the 2005 World Championship to the 2005 P9's Paris Tourneys!
128 players versus 394 players.
....And the "little" one should have been the BEST between them.

Read about the prices and think carefully if Proxies are NEEDED to bring people at your tourneys, or if they are the worst placebo  used until now





On the other hand,
A) + B) + C) = More people, more money, more Wizards' interest = Winnnnnn!
 

I'm telling you this, maybe strange story because in Europe ( and especially in Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Dutchlands and Sweden ) we are doing in this way since years and we have ALWAYS more and new people coming from every where in Italy and usually even from other european countries. They could be powered or not. The important thing is that they are REWARDED by what they chose to play.

Are you a powered player? Good. you would have stellar prices
Are you an unpowere player? Good, you would still have highly valuable prices.

Vintage is not a business for Wizards, so it would be difficult to explain and convince them that those old cards are useful for their future printing and selling policy.
Especially because it is not useful AT ALL.

We have to force ALL the people all around to take out from their box with a lot of dust on it all their cards and play with them.
They could think about P9s as an additional hints and stimoulus for a better play or for a better reward, but they would play tourneys SOON if they are rewarded with other good prices por Unpowered people, too.

Acquiring this point of view, would stabilize the price of P9s too.
Acquiring this point of view, would force people how to hate out Powered decks with unpowered ones.
Acquiring this point of view, would made people satisfied for their 25-30th place because they get a Mox for being THE FIRST unpowered deck, too.


While a Powered player cannot bring to competitions any other Powered player, Unpowered players can bring to Tourneys TONS of new people.

THE LAST POINT is:
Anyone is aware of the fact the best tourneys are always Sanctioned.
Force people to be used of this obvious situation and think ahead, rewarding both the categories, not only ONE of them.
With good Prices for both Powered and Unpowered players, T1 last t1 Vintage World's Championship would have AT LEAST quadruplicated the final attendance.



Talking of Proxies is sterile because we are not able to do nothing more write useless words.
Talking about programming reasonable tourneys for all the possible diverse audience seems more productive at any level.


MaxxMatt

[Dozer]

We can delay it with more proxies, or we can discover a real solution.  THAT is what I was getting at - not "why bother with more proxies, this format will collapse anyways."  This format will collapse if all we do is go "heh more proxies again."

Revvik is right. Even if more proxies bring more players into the tournament scene (growth instead of stagnation), the problem is that these new players will still want access to certain staples. Look at the example Steve gives in one of his above posts: Unlimited proxy tournaments which actually turned into ~10 proxy tournaments because everyone was buying the staples. More players will mean that not only the older, very limited cards (Power, Drains, Bazaars, Legends stuff... you know them) become holy grails, but even the relatively accessible cards will rise in price. Duals and Force of Wills will become inaccessible first, and they are on a good way already (mostly due to Legacy).

Vintage has a natural upper border of players set by the number of cards in existence. Proxies alleviate that problem, but there is an upper limit beyond which nobody wants to play anymore (30 seems to be the consensus). More proxies mean a price increase which in turn demands more proxies which will result in players dropping out again at a certain point.

That leaves two things: Either Vintage stays stable (stagnates) at a certain number of players -- growth becomes impossible. Or the accessibility problems of past-Legends staples are solved without resorting to proxies -- growth is almost a certainty.

I think a huge intermediate step could be allowing/demanding picture proxies. They make the gameplay easier and the proxy problem less obvious and keep the fun of playing against the real cards. Copyright issues prevent this from actually working on a larger scale, so we basically need authorized proxies from Wizards... leading directly to Chronicles II. I believe that without some kind of reprints or functional reprints, Vintage has not much room left to grow. Easing the pressure on the second-level chase cards makes 10-15 proxies a possible permanent solution.

Dozer

[Xman]

Since one of the problems with this format is the amount of power going down the drain, why don't we move to allow Collectors Edition and international Edition to be joined with the real cards.  They are Alpha/Beta/Unlimited with different backs.  But who doesn't play with sleeves?  Opaque sleeves are something everyone plays with.  Why not allow ICE and CE as real cards, allow them to be used just like Alpha Beta & UL sets.  IT would allow 15,000 more sets of power to be used in the format.  It will allow more people to come into the format.

CE Power is selling on ebay for under $50 a piece, even though it is not considered tournament legal.  So they have different backs.  Everyone plays with sleeves.  In EVERY FORMAT.  Yes, it is agaisnt the DCI TOurnament rules, but so is proxys.  We should push this so that more people can se power, and more people can play in the format we know and love.

Steve, I know you have friends at the DCI.  They legalized Portal.  Would it be so hard for them to legalize CE & ICE?  After all, they were printed, and if people trimmed the corners, then they have no difference than Alpha/Beta/UL power cards.  As we all know, proxies are just temporary.  Something has to be done, and I believe this, along with Wotc releasing another CE type set, making them ALL legal in Type 1, would go a long way to bringing htis format back to its former glory.

[Smmenen]

Since one of the problems with this format is the amount of power going down the drain, why don't we move to allow Collectors Edition and international Edition to be joined with the real cards.  They are Alpha/Beta/Unlimited with different backs.  But who doesn't play with sleeves?  Opaque sleeves are something everyone plays with.  Why not allow ICE and CE as real cards, allow them to be used just like Alpha Beta & UL sets.  IT would allow 15,000 more sets of power to be used in the format.  It will allow more people to come into the format.

CE Power is selling on ebay for under $50 a piece, even though it is not considered tournament legal.  So they have different backs.  Everyone plays with sleeves.  In EVERY FORMAT.  Yes, it is agaisnt the DCI TOurnament rules, but so is proxys.  We should push this so that more people can se power, and more people can play in the format we know and love.

Steve, I know you have friends at the DCI.  They legalized Portal.  Would it be so hard for them to legalize CE & ICE?  After all, they were printed, and if people trimmed the corners, then they have no difference than Alpha/Beta/UL power cards.  As we all know, proxies are just temporary.  Something has to be done, and I believe this, along with Wotc releasing another CE type set, making them ALL legal in Type 1, would go a long way to bringing htis format back to its former glory.

Actually, that's a very good suggestion.  I'm not sure if it would help THAT much since CE already costs like half of what unlimited costs - but that in itself is a reason not to fear it's legalization.