It's time to have a Serious Discussion about Proxies Again

[b-tings]

Collector's edition is already legal in quite a few tournaments on the west coast. It would certainly help if this happened everywhere, but wouldn't it be extremely hard to implement on a local level?

As for the rest of this, the only logical conclusion is that the average price of staples has to fall, and the quantity available rise, in order to keep the format healthy. Ruling out playing sub-optimal decks as a realistic option, this leaves us with more proxies, reprints, or "faux" reprints like another collectors edition.

So far, the legalisation of CE hasn't impacted the price of power on a local level. I'm not sure if this has more to do with E-bay or the "pimp" factor/desire to own the real deal. The ideal solution would be to make "alternate" power/staples readily available without impacting the price of real power/staples. Proxies have done this adequately so far, but it is difficult to imagine a scenario in which they are a permanent solution. The game will age, and more staples will become "not readily available" except by reprints.

I guess what I'm saying is we need some sort of reprint eventually. Not adding things to the discussion is tech.

Honestly, I can see it coming to a head where we have to print massive amounts of Jewelry, Undercosted Blue Cards, and Lands That Do Things They Shouldn't in order to keep the format alive. So I pose the question: What happens to the format if the cards lose their inherent collectors' value? Let's talk completely crushed. I want to hear how many players we lose, and how many we gain, and all the bad and good that comes with readily available $20 moxes, shops, bazaars, etc.

[Xman]

Actually, that's a very good suggestion.  I'm not sure if it would help THAT much since CE already costs like half of what unlimited costs - but that in itself is a reason not to fear it's legalization. 

Not to be picky, but lets spell it out like this

Ebay prices

UL Mox Sapphire in Good condition  $350 roughly

CE Mox Sapphire in Good Condition  $70-80 roughly.

Some people are trying to charge half the price, but they won't get that for cards that cannot be played in tournaments.

B-tings, since it current legality of CE goes tournament to tournament, people are going to buy the real power, alothough it is never a problem for use as really nice proxies and use for testing.  CE sells for those, and they are wonderful.

Again, I don't think Shops, 'zaars, Jewelry, and the liek should drop to $20.  I think they should somehow get down to the prices they were a few years ago.  You know, $100-$125 for moxen, $400 for Loti, and cheaper for the other cards.  However, this is most likely nevcer going to happen.

[Whatever Works]

Would it be fair to say that most people agree that the only way to have type 1 grow is having some form of reprints occur in the future???

Collectors and people with power would odviously take a hit, but the # of people with power is sooo minute compared to the # of people who make WoTC money, and when it comes down to it... its about money...

Chronicals 2 = money... even if its hurts a few feelings.

[Smmenen]

Would it be fair to say that most people agree that the only way to have type 1 grow is having some form of reprints occur in the future???

No.  That's why I'm talking in circles with people here.

I don't understand why some people don't understand this.  Increasing the number of proxies IS a viable solution. 

Growth is a matter of degree.  Reprints is the only way to MAXIMIZE growth - but it isn't the only way to achieve it.  In my view, it will never occur so it is pointless, even stupid to talk about.  They will never reprint power in quantities sufficient to make a difference - so it should be dropped, immediately. 

[jcb193]

If everyone can afford Moxes, Lands, Big Blue wizards loses a very large percentage of its T2, draft audience.......Would you rather play with moxes or myr?

What would make wizards more money over the next few years:

1.) Selling one-time purchase T1 kits (and completely devaluing any collectible interest in the game)
2.) Continuing to sell T2 cards and packs three times a year, indefinitely.

Wow, that's a really tough decision for a for-profit corporation to make.

Proposal for tmd Canon #3:  Wizards does not make money off T1 players.

[jcb193]

Increasing the number of proxies IS a viable solution. 

This is true, however inelegant.  I liken it to this:

Proxy decks= 1987 Cutlass.....it runs, but doesn't make you feel good
Power deck= 1987 Cutlass with rims.....

As people get money or interest in the game, they will want to pimp their decks.  This would still occur, even if Wizards reprinted the power (people would still want Beta moxes).  Unfortunately, proxy is the only reasonable solution (maybe vendors should look into renting out power for $$$). 

My problem with proxies is that they distract from the game. Example: If your opponent uses a basic plains to proxy a volcanic island....subconcsiouly, you still might think of that card as a basic land and that will effect your ability to play perfectly. 

[Revvik]

Collector's Edition power is legal in some areas over on the West Coast?  That seems like a decent enough idea in theory.  How many sets of Collector's Edition (ICE and CE) were produced?

A "manufactured proxy kit" doesn't solve anything - it doesn't alleviate the expenses of the type 1 staples such as dual lands.  See, if I were to have a set of the Kit Power, these would still count as proxies - since they came out of a proxy kit, they are essentially proxies and count towards your limit.  And renting power can cause all sorts of problems - like a store running tournaments finds a couple pieces are turning up missing and gets so jaded they halt events.

I'd like to say to new players "bite the bullet, if you can't afford dual lands don't play" but that attitude is just so wrong.  I think what needs to happen here is an instructional to introduce newer players to Vintage.  The problem might be some people want to join and go "hey, look at Control Slaver.  I buy some Force of Wills, Volcanics, Welders, and a Drain or two and I'll be able to play that!"  They then expend some money (contributing to the demand for expensive-er staples - the Problem) - unnecessarily!  Newer players could use a set guide as to how to step into Tournament Vintage, what decks are a smarter choice for players who don't want to shell out for things like that right off the bat and still be incredibly competitive.  How to enter and over time acquire the necessary cards to have a career in this format.

This doesn't solve high prices by any means, but it does show how the prices can be bypassed.  And all it really takes is winning one power tournament to get a pile of Vintage staples in trade.

Beyond that, I'd like to know the print run of DCI promos - all of them.  If they're larger than CE, they might serve as an answer.

[Jank Golem]

I think that proxies are a vaible short term solution, but reprints of staples must happen eventully. Seeing as wizards are the only people that are going to reprint such staples we must convince them that doing it will make them money while also not making the people who invested in those staples mad. At the moment there is a perception that if you play vintage you must shell out hundreds of dollars to play it. As a person who just recently started playing magic and has played no other format but vintage and legacy I know this is not true. My first comptative deck was oath I proxied something like: 4 force of will, 1 mox pearl, 1 mox emerald, 1 tropical island, 1 savannah, 1 ancestral recall, i time walk. I managed to t8 in my first vintage tournament with this deck. We need to show people when you first start you do not need to shell out that much money. Once new people start coming to vintage and demand begins to rise wizards will see they can make money and begin reprinting staples. Once they do that more and more people will flock to vintage and wizards can start printing higher end staples and legalizing some CE cards. I think the only way to get people to come to vintage is to write an article about it. The article should explain why to play vintage over all the other formats, including legacy, even though I like legacy I like that there is already a very estblished and nice vintage community.

[jcb193]

Beyond that, I'd like to know the print run of DCI promos - all of them.  If they're larger than CE, they might serve as an answer.

The only problem with this is that a majority of the promos will quickly end up in the same hands as most of the power (dealers, collectors).  Essentially doubling the amount of power in circulation, but not helping the entry-level player (which is what this thread is arguing).

Unfortunately, as said AD NAUSEUM, the entry level T1 player is of no interest to Wizards....Why is this so hard to understand??? (not directed at Revvik at all).

[Xman]

Collector's Edition power is legal in some areas over on the West Coast?  That seems like a decent enough idea in theory.  How many sets of Collector's Edition (ICE and CE) were produced?

10,000 sets of CE, 5,000 sets of ICE.

reprints will not happen, and CE power is reasonable, compared to the other options we have for entry level type 1 players.  players would start with them, and then move to the real deal over time.  SOme of the cost for entering our format.

Slightly more proxies, plus getting DCI to legalize CE & ICE for Type 1 would go a long way to alleviate the cost for entry level players, and make the format more available for players.  DCI and WotC does recognize and like this format, and they most likely see the same problems we do with the very limited card supplies of the very key cards.  So, We need to set up a correct proposal to them in order to help save our format.

[Dozer]

Increasing the number of proxies IS a viable solution.

But only to a certain point. The game is more than just the sum of its mechanics and numbers. I know that if every second card my opponent played was a Plains with something scribbled on, I'd cop out. Only if the proxies resemble the original cards closely would I be prepared to accept a limit that is higher than 15. If we are talking good picture proxies, I'm all for increasing the limit. If we are talking scribbled Plains, 15 is the MAXIMUM. (For me, at least.)

The look and feel of the game is a huge part of the enjoyment. Taking that away would leave only the mechanical side, and frankly, especially in Vintage, that's just not enough. If proxies can keep the flavor, look good, be instantly recognizable AND still satisfy TO's and judges, then all is well.

Dozer

[Smmenen]

I think that, especially when we are talking about possibilities, we should think about what the people want and not about what the people desire

Want and desire are synonyms.  I have no idea what you are talking about.

Even if I own P9s, I would prefer playing in an highly competitive enviroment. Proxing or non proxing things is only one of the instruments that my mind construct to build and play in this ideal place.

I'm going to be honest; I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

0) On the other hand, people want to play for Money or Cards that can be transmuted in Money. If there would be a world enviroment with the same rules, they would challange themselves for both the glory and the prices, but the latter move people everywhere in the world, while the first one can move only a few of them.

Talking about REAL events and REAL world's examples:

1) From an objective point of view, GenCon, THE World Championship's Tournament had a little attendance, if compared to what it should have represented for every players and compared to other similar events of the other formats.
Have this Non Proxy event blocked all the people at their home?
Have this Non Proxy event stopped them from coming from all over the world?
Uhm... not at all. Or at least, it wasn't the ONLY reason for sure.

Again, it is not at all clear here what the hell you are talking about.  From an objective point of view, the Gencon Championship had medium attendence - not "little." 

The lack of the the "arguments" I wrote on point 0) is the MAIN reason.

What are you talking about?

Who would battle for an artwork and a few moneys but spending so much to travel all over the world?
Who can come in America to join an event without being AT LEAST menthally satistified and stimulated by a FAT price?

...look at what have happened in your country.
Only 128 among the americans decided to come and play when they have easier access than any other people in the world. AND THIS SHOULD have been the Outstanding among the possible tourneys available....

That's not actually the case. 

Gencon is no proxies.  The biggest tournaments in the United States are now routinely 10 proxies.  Starcitygames held a tournament two weeks before Gencon in a city roughly proximate to Gencon and they only had 140+ people.  Why would Gencon get more people than a 10 proxy event?  That doesn't make any sense.  Especially when the overall prize structure is so much weaker.

Try to think about what the people want and do your move according to this reasoning.

A) - Do People want money and valuable prices?
Load them P9s - they would usually resold them, so you should have new fresh prices almost forever( as starcitygames did from an year since now )

B) - Do People want Vintage to come back as possible largely played and Wizards' authorized format?
Involve ANYONE on playing Vintage with prices and cards and most of all DCI's Classific!
A lot of people are thrilled about it.
A lot of people refuse to take with the needed value any non sanctioned tournamant.

Actually this is not true either.  I for one do not want to see Vintage become a Wizards supported format - a PTQ or Grand Prix format because sanctioning means no proxies.  It would be hugely unpopular because it would be too expensive and you would lose that element which makes Vintage fun: power.

C) - Do People not own p9s, that could allow them to be rewarded as much as the Powered players?
Try not to focus on Proxy, but REWARD the unpowered players with prices comparable to the Powered ones, too.
There would ALWAYS be Unpowered People that would not play because they are Unpowered. Stimulate them to play with their cards for slightly subpar rewards. Contruct a Meta-Tourney ( a tourney in a tourney ) in each tourneys. All people would concurr to different but proportionated goals.
Especially because Reprinting is not possible and satisfing all the growing audience with "!!! P9s for all !!!!", this is the only pragmatic thing to do.

Why should we reward the unpowered player if our goal is to get the unpowered player to play with power in proxy tournaments?  We would be sending the wrong message.  Moreover, rewarding unpowered players is just another way of basically recognizing a problem but acknowledging a certain powerlessness to do anything about it. 

Preparing people to this organizing conduct, would probably prevent the low attendance to SO MUCH IMPORTANT events such as the T1-World Championship!!!
Playing with Proxies for all the year and forcing people dropping them in the most important event in the same year is sadistic and counter intuitive.
A lot of the usual players have been taken out from the competition because of it.

I agree that it is sort of sadistic.  But it is unavoidable. 

Try to focus what weekly happens in Europe ( 90-100+ players ) and that happens in the periodical HUGE reunions.
Compare them to what happens in America.

I think you are truly overestimating attendence rates in Europe.  I look at the northern European T1 events and they often don't get more than 30 people.  The Duelmen now barely gets 50-60 people.  The regional variances aren't really that much different in Europe than they are in America.

America has 50-70 players at the weekly events ( with some obvious spikes ) and 120-170 players at the best events ( starcity ones above all ).
Europe has 70-100 players at the weekly events and 200+ players at the reunions. Try to compare the 2005 World Championship to the 2005 P9's Paris Tourneys!
128 players versus 394 players.
....And the "little" one should have been the BEST between them.

The French Event had an absolutely insane prize structure AND WAS FREE TO ENTER.  If Gencon Vintage Champs had had that prize structure and was free to enter, we would have had double that amount.

Read about the prices and think carefully if Proxies are NEEDED to bring people at your tourneys, or if they are the worst placebo  used until now

Encourging powerless budget decks is futile.  Who is going to want to put their energy into tuning good budget decks?  Fish has become successful here - but Fish now requires at least Moxen.  The problem with Budget decks is that they are always better with at least some power.  The power is what makes Vintage fun.  Proxies are needed NOT to bring people to the tournaments, but to keep them coming back.

On the other hand,
A) + B) + C) = More people, more money, more Wizards' interest = Winnnnnn!
 

Since when do we care about Wizards interest?  I thought the lesson was that Wizards can't do anything for type one.

I'm telling you this, maybe strange story because in Europe ( and especially in Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Dutchlands and Sweden ) we are doing in this way since years and we have ALWAYS more and new people coming from every where in Italy and usually even from other european countries. They could be powered or not. The important thing is that they are REWARDED by what they chose to play.

And in the meantime you are creating a culture of anti-proxies.  People over there don't like proxies and you are also breeding subpar metagames in the process as well. 

Are you a powered player? Good. you would have stellar prices
Are you an unpowere player? Good, you would still have highly valuable prices.

That's fine - but do you think that guy playing his R/G beatz deck is really having a good time - as good of a time as that guy playing his TPS deck?  If you want to play R/G beatz, my advice is to play Legacy.

Vintage is not a business for Wizards, so it would be difficult to explain and convince them that those old cards are useful for their future printing and selling policy.
Especially because it is not useful AT ALL.

I agree completely.

We have to force ALL the people all around to take out from their box with a lot of dust on it all their cards and play with them.
They could think about P9s as an additional hints and stimoulus for a better play or for a better reward, but they would play tourneys SOON if they are rewarded with other good prices por Unpowered people, too.

Acquiring this point of view, would stabilize the price of P9s too.
Acquiring this point of view, would force people how to hate out Powered decks with unpowered ones.
Acquiring this point of view, would made people satisfied for their 25-30th place because they get a Mox for being THE FIRST unpowered deck, too.

That's fine.  I am fine with rewarding unpowered or no real powered players.  Maybe I should suggest it to the SCG folks.  But putting too much of a reward to unpowered players is sadistic because Black Lotus makes EVERY deck better - even Fish.

While a Powered player cannot bring to competitions any other Powered player, Unpowered players can bring to Tourneys TONS of new people.

Agreed - but they may not be enjoying the format for what it is.

THE LAST POINT is:
Anyone is aware of the fact the best tourneys are always Sanctioned.

What makes you say this?  What does sanctioning truly add?

Force people to be used of this obvious situation and think ahead, rewarding both the categories, not only ONE of them.
With good Prices for both Powered and Unpowered players, T1 last t1 Vintage World's Championship would have AT LEAST quadruplicated the final attendance.
[/u][/i]

There are good reasons to reward unpowered players.  But I don't see a SINGLE reason why rewarding unpowered players and encouraging proxies are mutually exclusive options.  We can do both at the same time.  Starcitygames could give the timetwister to the highest placing person who had no real power in their deck. 

[Revvik]

Unfortunately, as said AD NAUSEUM, the entry level T1 player is of no interest to Wizards....Why is this so hard to understand??? (not directed at Revvik at all).

So we can't leave it up to them - why even petition to nationally legalize CE or manufactured proxies?

[prosbloom225]

Would it be fair to say that most people agree that the only way to have type 1 grow is having some form of reprints occur in the future???

Collectors and people with power would odviously take a hit, but the # of people with power is sooo minute compared to the # of people who make WoTC money, and when it comes down to it... its about money...

Chronicals 2 = money... even if its hurts a few feelings.

Chronicles II would be ownage, even though it would piss the shop/drain wielding folk.  It would be a better idea than reprinting power itself, and would probobly indirectly drive the price of the 10 down too.

[jpmeyer]

If everyone can afford Moxes, Lands, Big Blue wizards loses a very large percentage of its T2, draft audience.......Would you rather play with moxes or myr?

What would make wizards more money over the next few years:

1.) Selling one-time purchase T1 kits (and completely devaluing any collectible interest in the game)
2.) Continuing to sell T2 cards and packs three times a year, indefinitely.

Wow, that's a really tough decision for a for-profit corporation to make.

Proposal for tmd Canon #3:  Wizards does not make money off T1 players.

Wizards DOES make money off Type 1 players.  Somebody has to crack those packs in order to get singles like fetchlands or Platinum Angel.  It's quite clear that new sets add playable cards and thus a reason for by singles which someone somewhere had to crack.

[jcb193]

Sorry for being unclear.  I wasn't trying to state that "not one penny of revenue" comes from T1.  I was stating that T1 is such a small part of WotC's revenue stream, that it is hardly a motivating force of change. 

Yes, packs are cracked, and yes, T1 players buy those singles.  However, the packs are not made for T1 tournament players, the packs are not cracked for T1 tournament players.  We just happen to benefit from the demand that draft, T2, and casual players create.

[everythingitouchdies]

I have a completely new perspective on this subject as a major change in my game status has impacted my ability to play.

Right now I own approximately 15 pieces of power. They are all for sale, so I can get debt straightened out and start the process of purchasing a home. I have sold off the bulk of my collection for the same purchase. When everything is said and done, I am still forced to keep about 12-20 cards worth more than 15 dollars to play a very small range of decks (that is 4) in a Ten Proxy environment.

I am in the opposite position of most people playing with proxies. For most, its a means of getting into this format. For me, its a means of being able to play once in a while without having thousands of dollars tied up in cards I might use ten times a year. In both cases, proxies are necessary for survival.

It took until this year for proxies to be introduced to our local tournament. Right now the number is set at 5. At 5 I will not be able to play optimal decks, and a portion of our players are already playing suboptimal builds for the same reason. At ten, I can break into a few decks, but it still leaves a whole range of the field shut off. There are alot of people who will be forced to play poor meta choice decks and questionable mana bases due to 10 proxy rules. Its not constructive in the sense that its hard to grow a tournament setting if its not within the reach of new players.

Here is the question I have been mulling over (since I am debating the idea of hosting tournaments instead of continued play.) How many proxies make it viable? For a sound control deck, you need 8 power and 4 drain. Before duals, you need 12. You are likely to run as many as 8 duals. Thats 20. So if you had 20 proxies, you still need to assemble 4 force of wills (80+) a number of intuitions (15+ each) perhaps welders (now up to 15 locally) and fetchlands, etc. At 20 proxies, its going to cost you as much to build a good control deck as it would playing standard. So then you have Stax. 8 power and 4 workshops (12 again.) Crypt, Academy, welders, chains /iteoc etc... you easily push beyond 20. So with 20 proxies, you are still in the heavy expense realm to play it. Combo? Yeah you can play combo a little cheaper on 20 proxies. But good luck piloting tendrils or belcher through a tournament when you are new to the format.

My conclusion so far has been that this format can not be sustained in a healthy way with less than 20 proxies. The problem is we are now talking about 1/3 of a deck written out on basic land. How constructive is this? I dont know, but it seems to me that it is better than closing the door and playing 5 or ten and getting half as many people with half as many good decks and a certain gloom cast over players who cannot buy a black lotus.

The point steve made about reprints is true. The thing you guys need to remember is that certain things are never going to be reprinted, and it probably would not help if they were. Some things being reprinted would not affect the price much. Printing inferior versions (the new duals) does not allow optimal play. If its about the game, proxies are the only solution, and in heavy quantity. If its about elitism and collector value, then we are missing a very amazing opportunity to play a format unlike anything else in the game.

I will admit I havent read every single post in this thread... after a while it all started to blur anyway and I would not have remembered half of it. I really dont care about wizards much, and I dont think turning to them for solutions would be the right idea. We as a community (and remember we are the BEST community EVAR!!!) need to take this into our own hands.

As of now I think the proper number is 20. What do you guys think?

[dicemanx]

Here's my proposition. Let's permit 75 proxies. However, anyone wishing to use any proxies must create good quality proxies for themselves first. All it would really involve is stripping a card (peeling off the foil layer from a junk foil card) and printing over it. Quality printers are not mandatory - the proxy doesn't have to look "real", it just has to contain the image + full text.

This way, you have to, God forbid, do a bit of WORK to play in T1 events, but without having to spend hundreds of dollars. If  a player has to invest 20 hours or so to "build" a deck in this manner, then so be it.

I am dead serious about this.

If anyone is too inept at following directions or unwilling to spend the relatively small amount of time constructing their proxies, they don't get to play, period.

[tdickinson]

I don't think that's such a bad idea. Letting people have as many proxies as they want, provided they have good proxies is actually incredibly helpful to many people.

For the player on a budget, it allows them to have the cards they need. I own no power, and only 1 Mana Drain, so I'm in this camp. Frankly, I don't mind spending the time to make good proxies, because I hate sitting across from bad ones, and I know that I for one appreciate being able to tell what cards I'm playing against, and I'm sure other people do too. My proxies are all erased cards with new text and art drawn in. No one mistakes them for anything other than what they are.

This is also good because it stops people from having decks made up of almost entirely proxies. It's possible to do, but honestly, other than in very extentuating circumstances, who's going to spend the time making that many proxies? It's time consuming, and quite a bit of work.

So basically, I like this suggestion a lot. As ridiculous as it might sound at first, when you think about it, it definitely has its advantages.

[Smmenen]

Since one of the problems with this format is the amount of power going down the drain, why don't we move to allow Collectors Edition and international Edition to be joined with the real cards.  They are Alpha/Beta/Unlimited with different backs.  But who doesn't play with sleeves?  Opaque sleeves are something everyone plays with.  Why not allow ICE and CE as real cards, allow them to be used just like Alpha Beta & UL sets.  IT would allow 15,000 more sets of power to be used in the format.  It will allow more people to come into the format.

CE Power is selling on ebay for under $50 a piece, even though it is not considered tournament legal.  So they have different backs.  Everyone plays with sleeves.  In EVERY FORMAT.  Yes, it is agaisnt the DCI TOurnament rules, but so is proxys.  We should push this so that more people can se power, and more people can play in the format we know and love.

Steve, I know you have friends at the DCI.  They legalized Portal.  Would it be so hard for them to legalize CE & ICE?  After all, they were printed, and if people trimmed the corners, then they have no difference than Alpha/Beta/UL power cards.  As we all know, proxies are just temporary.  Something has to be done, and I believe this, along with Wotc releasing another CE type set, making them ALL legal in Type 1, would go a long way to bringing htis format back to its former glory.

Question: how do you get around the corners issue?

[Xman]

Question: how do you get around the corners issue?

Trimm them.

put a basic land card or something else chap (Chimney Imp comes to mind), and trimm the corners to match.

[Smmenen]

Explain in more detail.  What should SCG do if they were to authorize them?

[ROLAND]

@ Smmenen

Why don't you just have Star City Games do what Gamingetc.com did?

They printed their own version of playable proxies. 

Talk to the guys at SCG and come up with a list of the cards you feel are required to be competitive.  (I'm not just talking power, I mean drains, workshops, etc.)

Then have them talk to a printing company. Sell the proxies for $1.00 a piece and make them generic enough that you can avoid copyright laws.  Have someone come up with a cool picture and see about having foils versions.

As long as everyone playing is clear about what the proxies represent and look like there shouldn't be any problem.

This gives starcity a little money and everyone gets to avoid the dreaded plains with marker scribbled on it.

In order to do this you will probably have to start a thread to see which cards should be printed in the set of proxies. Just remember you can't please everyone. However, with your knowledge of the format you should be able to come up with a list. This would go a long way in helping your cause.

I own a set of Gamingetc proxies, and they aren't as bad as many vintage players make them out to be. (THe foil lotus is pretty cool too!)

Just a thought.

Roland

[Xman]

Explain in more detail.  What should SCG do if they were to authorize them?

Require the corners of the CE cards to be trimmed to match the corners of the real deal.  By actually cutting the corners, this will show time and effert spent in order to get the cards to match the rest in the sleevs.  Now they don't have to be perfect, but they do have to be close enough.

And most playeds use new sleeves for a tournament, but people could also bust out new sleeves.  I guess that could work as well.

[dandan]

I think it is clear that Wizards have no intention of reprinting any high-priced Vintage cards in sufficient quantities to affect the growth of our format. They might be persuaded to print some ultra-cool foil Judges' reward goodies or even 'better than a shower with a hottie' textless goodies but these would be in small quantities.

I think we need to understand that:

1. A large reprint is not going to happen
2. Widespread use of proxy cards has already happened without damaging the secondary market
3. Use of proxies means that it is harder to play properly
4. Better quality proxies would improve this
5. Proxies ARE a form of reprint. Scribbled Plains=Mox='reprint'
6. Wizards have already printed blank cards and there is no policy stopping them from doing so in the future
7. Other companies can print cards with different backs (ideally rough approximations as many of us have a lot of see-through sleeves and play casual games too). These cards can't use the exact names of MTG cards but we can understand what they are.

Note that if Wizards did print a lot of blank cards, I believe it would be perfectly legal for TOs to allow proxies as they can already proxy one MTG card for another to avoid marked cards (at least this happened in the past). Blank MTG cards wouldn't affect secondary card prices significantly more than marked-up Plains i.e. not at all.

I'm pretty sure that if SCG printed some Proxy cards then there would be considerable interest. I'm not sure how the relationship is between Wizards and the company which printed their own cards is now though. Having said that, SCG printed some MTG token cards, didn't they?

[Revvik]

Could we be seeing a card called 'Star City Ancestral' or "Star City Emerald' in the future?
But it couldn't stop there.

Seeing visible, colorful proxies doesn't change the fact that a ten-proxy Drain deck or Workshop deck is out of the reach of almost anybody who wants to play Magic.

I still would not mind seeing Star City print its own proxies.  Hint, hint.

[nataz]

Oh man, this is such a mind-fuck. I love Type I, but every time I look at it in the context of this thread I see it as a dead-game-walking. I wrote 3 pages, single spaced about this topic as a reply, and then realized that the best answer lies not with us, but with SCG.

You can argue all that you want, but this is the simple truth.

1)   Type staples I will get more expensive, the more popular it becomes
2)   Price is a real, and eventually terminal, barrier to the format. At some point in time the price of staples will overcome the willingness of people to pay, and the format will crash/stagnate (stop-growth point).

If you wish to avoid that stop growth point there is only 1 solution, increase the number of staples available in the card pool continuously to match growth or at least keep prices in check.

I believe that in order for Type I to succeed, the average deck cost should be no more then the average deck for Type II. 

Three ways to do this
 
1)   Reprint from Wizards (Think of a CE “Coreâ€? Edition that came out every year)
2)   Reprints from another company (gaming tech power 10 proxies)
3)   Reprints from the populous (proxies w/ sharpies, printers, etc.)

Option 1:

Wizards will not do this. If they did, that would be awesome, but I think wizards would let the format die before this happened. However, it would be by far and away the BEST possible outcome for the format.

Option 2:

It will be almost impossible to get away with this. 9 or 10 proxies maybe, but anything more then that would be almost suicidal. Wizards and their parent company WILL protect their trademarks, so good luck, but I wouldn’t count on mass productions of a wide range of staples

Option 3:

Tricky because Wizards wont support the format, which leaves you with 1 of two options for play. Home grown like Waterbury, and Company grown like SCG. Home grown is limited in size by the sheer amount of effort it takes for larger and larger events. Sure, over 200 people are great for Waterbury, could you imagine trying to do 500 people? Eventually it becomes an impossibility, and you either basically become a business, or you quit. A business model can support a larger amount of people (because they have larger resource pools), but most business that run these events are in the business of selling cards. Eventually proxy sales could hurt said business.

Solution: Option 3, which either a business that has no interest in selling cards (makes money off the venue, entry fee, food, etc.) or a business like SCG that would be willing to treat a type I event as if they had no interest in selling vintage cards (and therefore make their money off food, drink, entry fee). In the second case, SCG could also gain the less obvious effects of Type I as a gateway for magic (wouldn’t that be cool), and lots and lots of prestigious advertising. 

I really think that SCG and the Power 9 series could be the great hope for Type I. I have no idea if they would be willing (is it worth their time?), or even able to take the risk (would they kill the market for Type I ?) of continuously aggressively pushing proxy limits to keep prices of cards in check. But if they did, it would be most amazing.

[Dozer]

Solution: Option 3, which either a business that has no interest in selling cards (makes money off the venue, entry fee, food, etc.) or a business like SCG that would be willing to treat a type I event as if they had no interest in selling vintage cards (and therefore make their money off food, drink, entry fee). In the second case, SCG could also gain the less obvious effects of Type I as a gateway for magic (wouldn’t that be cool), and lots and lots of prestigious advertising. 

I really think that SCG and the Power 9 series could be the great hope for Type I. I have no idea if they would be willing (is it worth their time?), or even able to take the risk (would they kill the market for Type I ?) of continuously aggressively pushing proxy limits to keep prices of cards in check. But if they did, it would be most amazing.

I basically agree to your analysis, but I think you are forgetting the small local Vintage tournaments in this equation. Sure, Vintage could live on Waterbury and SCG alone, but as you say, those tournaments have a certain upper limit of players. I think that only local Vintage tournaments can keep the format alive as something that evolves and they provide a preparation playground for the big tournaments. I wouldn't want to miss either, but in the long run, I am not sure if the format can actually grow without local support. Maybe in the Northeast of the US, it can. But in the rest of the world, without local tournaments, Vintage might eventually die. I'm not saying it will, but it could.

Regarding the kind of proxies used, I am all for it to make stripped Foils (and World Championship decks blanks) the mandatory way of creating a proxy. Written or printed, they are far less irritating than be-scribbled Plains.

Dozer

[Khahan]

I think it is clear that Wizards have no intention of reprinting any high-priced Vintage cards in sufficient quantities to affect the growth of our format. They might be persuaded to print some ultra-cool foil Judges' reward goodies or even 'better than a shower with a hottie' textless goodies but these would be in small quantities.

I don't think its so clear. I am hearing rumors (and I will say now, only hearing. I do not have any links or written info to point anybody to) that the P9 will be reprinted as special inserts in an upcoming set.  The specifics are not know, but they would

A)  Be collectible only
B)  Not be legal for T2 play or any sanctioned play

Supposedly they would just be promo cards.  I've heard no details on how this would be accomplished. I've heard no details on what they would look like if they'd be foil or not. Nothing.

Surprisingly, its the lack of specific details that makes me believe that WoTC is, at the absolute very least, considering doing this.  The rumor is that they are considering it, have not decided on it and there is a 50% chance it will happen.

If I hear more, I'll post it.  If not, its probably an urban legend that will simply die out.

[alban]

Interesting....I've heard something about a new Fat Pack
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/askwizards/0905

"As for your question, the Ravnica fat pack will be even juicier than the already amazing Ninth Edition fat pack. Like the Ninth Edition fat pack, the Ravnica fat pack will feature a player's guide, two card boxes with original artwork, a fat pack sleeve that converts into a mini-poster, six plastic dividers, six booster packs, a 40-card land pack, and a special Ravnica-themed lifecounter.
....
"In addition to the novel, the fat pack will have a super secret promo card in it. I could tell you all about it, but all will be revealed soon..."