R/G beats discussion

[Astro]

That looks like a pretty solid mana base with the inclusion of 2 K. Forests over basics.  I'd just really like to see the deck fleshed out a bit more as to an optimal deck list.     

One of the things that I really feel the deck needs to be a bit more competetive, is draw.  When you compare it to Fish the deck has no draw, no counters, and only packs half the disruption.  It does however make up for its lack of disruption with with speed, but if there were some way to draw cards or make up for the lack of draw I think it could hold it's own a bit more.  Have we totally ruled out Skullclamp, CoW, ect...  that would give the deck some umph when the deck starts to run out of juice late game.

[[supa_t(im)]]

The lack of draw is why I think 4 monkies are so important.  They create card advantage for the deck.  Artifact mutation from the side also gives card advantage.  I'm not sure there is any other thing the deck can do for a card advantage engine.

I played against some decks today and I learned something.  If you don't establish board control early, and keep board control, the deck fizzles out.  If at any time a stalemate is reached in board position, things aren't looking good for you.  Fortunately, this doesn't happen often.

[xrobx]

Nice to see some work on this deck

I must admit, I came across a good player today playing RG and it was quite impressive.  The maindeck mongrels help tons for the extra few damage, as late game rootmazes suck.  Still the same problem arises; no fu**ing draw engine...who cares really.  The noteworthy thing about this deck is its ability to hate better than any other deck out there, and it does so very consistantly.  I used to play this deck, but retired it for now.  In todays meta, nonbasics are huge again, and cards like price of progress could see very nice sittings in a heavy nonbasic meta, if the SB has room of course.  This gives the deck a massive bomb in the current environment, which is nice.

Another reason this deck could do well right now is the flux of combo decks.  I played against a guy today, and he just so happened to be playing maindeck pyrostatic pillar.  I just so happened to be playing doomsday, and he fuc*ed me up when I least expected it; turn 1.  Ruby, Taiga, Pillar.  It's ridiculous right now how powerful that is, as it doesn't only nullify the idea of combo decks, it neuters other aggro like fish, and koboldclamp (you could consider this combo), as well as random things like FCG.  FCG, if you may recall, was one of this deck's hardest matchups.

I'm not suggesting you guys run pillar or price of progress maindeck, just gather what you will from it.  I think that this deck still has a lot of potential and it would be silly to deem aggro a lost cause, part of magic is fun, and aggro is definatly the most fun to play   As WUAffiliate said recently in his Waterbury report, magic has a lot to do with karma and luck.  I believe this to be true, as the hands I've seen, drawn, and witnessed throughout my years of magic have been simply incredible, and the odds of them occuring are so random, and unprobable, you have to just accept the fact that sometimes, people draw like gods, sometimes they dont.

The funniest:

Good fish players did not run lotus. this deck also cannot. null rod is way too key of a card. all slaver has to do is play a will, which you have no way of stopping, into a welder (or 2) and a time walk. GAME OVER MAN!!!!!1!!ONE!

I don't know if this is meant to be serious, but what the hell?  Are you somehow suggesting not to run black lotus in this deck?  This made me laugh for a few minutes while reading it.  Sometimes I wonder if things like this could be linked to the "MWS HORROR STORIES" forum, but with another name or something.  Like..."WHY BLACKS LOTUSS SUX U MOMS" or something...hehe....

[Freelancer]

At the moment I am testing a card I tried out a while back in Wu weenie lock (don't ask) which gives aggro decks a solid car drawing engine, the card I'm talking about is memory mask. I already suggested it in the other thread, but most people rejected it as to much off a tempo loss. I think people should definitely test the deck with 2x mask in place off some burn (or whatever other card you can spare). It gives us a solid mid/late game card that's a great topdeck, the reason I only play it as a 2-off is that its absolutely horrible in the early game. You simply don't have the mana to cast and activate it (this is also the reason I chose mask over SoFI) it in the first 2/3 turns.

It also has mad synergy with both lavamancer and mongrel (with mongrel its essentially +1 damage everytime the mask hits and you don't have a spell to cast). It also obviously dumps dead cards, giving you 4 outlets for them.

[xrobx]

Heh, discarding a card for mask of memory does not give the mongrel +1/+1   And I tested this card way back, results were crap.

I honestly found the red genju better, as sometimes it would randomly deal 6/12 damage.  Who runs mainboard enchantment hate, that is really effective at smoking a 1cc enchantment?  Either way, neither card seems to be an optimum choice...

[Generic]

Well, I haven't posted in this forum for quite some time, but I have a R/G beats decklist to contribute.  This paticular deck has earned a lot of victories and respect from vintage tourney players in my local area, and a older version drew for 1st place in a Lotus Tourney just last year.  Without further ado, here it is:

Land

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Mountain
5 Forest
1 Strip Mine

Other Mana Sources

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring


Red

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer (substitute Gorilla Shaman, if your metagame demands it)  **edited**
2 Price of Progress
1 Fork

Green

4 River Boa
3 Skyshroud Elite
4 Rancor
3 Call of the Herd
3 Hidden Gibbons
3 Berserk

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shatterstorm
3 Naturalize
3 Damping Matrix
3 Maze of Ith


This deck is extremely fast, yet flexible enough for a varied metagame.  It has a lot of main deck hate for U or U/W  based control decks like  (the primary weakness for R/G decks), and the sideboard is flexible enough to deal with Stax and Affinity.  Thoughts?

[Freelancer]

Heh, discarding a card for mask of memory does not give the mongrel +1/+1   And I tested this card way back, results were crap.

I honestly found the red genju better, as sometimes it would randomly deal 6/12 damage.  Who runs mainboard enchantment hate, that is really effective at smoking a 1cc enchantment?  Either way, neither card seems to be an optimum choice...

Two things:
1) Discarding for mask of memory might not give it +1/+1, but the +1 card advantage does.
2) Why where the results crap? There isn't much value in a comment that just states the card is crap.



Generic, about the list:
1) I think you run way to little lands for mox diamond.
2) You have no goblins to support piledriver, it seems suboptimal at best.
3) Berserking a 3/3 isn't that good unless you have a rancor.
4) Call of the herd is quite expensive and has a big sign (mana drain me!) on its forehead.
5) Where is the grim lavamancer? It is so good. Same for the elvish spirit guides.


These are just suggestions(/questions) though, if it works for you than by all means run it.

[Ufactor]

[soapbox]OK, everyone go read this...EVERYONE

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=22973.0
*
Not to pooh-poo everyone's ideas, but papertesting can only get you so far.  After you get an idea on paper, there's only so much theoretical improvement you can make before you hit a wall and need to take it onto the road.  After umpteenth decklists on this thread, eveeryone needs, with their list, to shit or get off the pot.  Again, not to invalidate anyone, but doomhed seems to be the only one with REAL TOURNAMENT EXPERIENCE around here.  So, everyone needs to hold off on broadcasting their ideas until they're tested.[/soapbox]




*I'm using my friends crapintosh, so the hyperlink option works differently than what I know.

[Freelancer]

I was merely suggesting a card I tested and found solid. I was suggesting it here because people asked for card drawing.

Although the large quantity off decklists has to stop by now.

[Ape]

Generic: I believe you when you say your deck is fast, but without tempo disruption, you won't win against faster deck, like, every combo deck out there, and a lot of other ('slower') decks which can lock you in the turns that you play your Kird Apes and Forks. Including (tempo)disruption cards like Null Rod, Root Maze etc. is what gives this deck a chance against other decks.

I created a RG list myself, which I will play in the Paris tournament next weekend. I play a lot more hate and less creatures maindeck. I think the deck is slower than most other RG Beatz around, but I think that the disruption is more important than the early (less efficient) beats.


RG beatz, by Ape 2005

Manas: 22
4 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Beats + Utility creatures: 15
4 Wild Mongrel
3 River Boa
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Goblin Vandal

4 Rancor

Hate: 13
4 Null Rod
4 Root Maze
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Naturalize

Burn: 10
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress

Sideboard: 15
2 Naturalize
2 Emerald Charm
2 Blood Moon
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Ground Seal
3 Grim Lavamancer

Maindeck: 60
Sideboard: 15

Yeah, that's right; Red Elemental Blast maindeck. I decided to put them maindeck because they are such a powerhouse against so many decks. Countering a Thirst for Knowledge, Mana Drain, Ancestral Recall or AK, you can do a lot with this card. When useless, they can easily be sided out or discarded to Wild Mongrel.

I used to play a lot more critters; good critters, like Goblin Vandals and Grim Lavamancers. I decided to put the Lavamancers in the sideboard, because there were not enough targets for this dude to justify 4 spots in the maindeck for him. Now I play three in the side.
I don't really understand why people play Kird Ape and other second rang critters. Despite his cool name, , he is just a 2/3, and we all agree that River Boa's and Wild Mogrels are better. Why not let them do the job, and play more hate? Same goes up for Hidden Gibbons and Skyshroud Elites.

I think I don't have to explain all the hate. A single Root Maze alone fucks up Dragon, Sensei, SlaverLock and Meandeck Tendrils, and will give SSB, Welderdecks, TPS etc. a big problem to solve.
The only thing I'm not really confident about is my sideboard. While Blood Moon can be a winner/bomb, I don't know if it belongs in this deck. Three mana is not nothing, and I sometimes really doubt its power because of the basics still being played everywhere. I need a sideboard makeover  

Any critics on the deck? Please, please tell me what is wrong and what is good.
Next week I will post the results of the coolest Vintage tournament ever.

Note: Although I own a Mox Emerald and could probably borrow a Mox Ruby and Black Lotus, I decided not to play them. This is because I don't think I will make Top8 in Paris (You will have to play 9-0-0 or 8-0-1...), but I might get a chance of winning one of the prizes awarded to the 8 highest non powered decks, which are also awesome by the way.

And, like a friend of mine said, I will have an excuse if I get ass-kicked in Paris

Thank you,

Ape.

[Ape]

Freelancer, remember that you can't equip the Mask of Memory under a Null Rod.

Ape.

[Generic]

Generic, about the list:
1) I think you run way to little lands for mox diamond.
2) You have no goblins to support piledriver, it seems suboptimal at best.
3) Berserking a 3/3 isn't that good unless you have a rancor.
4) Call of the herd is quite expensive and has a big sign (mana drain me!) on its forehead.
5) Where is the grim lavamancer? It is so good. Same for the elvish spirit guides.


These are just suggestions(/questions) though, if it works for you than by all means run it.

On point 1:  I agree, it's low, but the deck hasn't a card with a casting cost bigger than 3, with most being only 1 or 2.  I haven't had much trouble with mana screw using the Diamond, but it does help (and has helped) the potential of putting on the pressure with multiple threats on the first turn.  Perhaps a Lotus Petal would work better.

On point 2 and 5:   I made a mistake....the 3 cards should be Grim Lavamancer instead of the Piledrivers.  My brain must have shorted out.  Right card, right functionality, wrong name.  I get the two confused sometimes.  I'll edit to correct.

On point 4:  Yes, Call can be drained....just like most any other card, I suppose.  But, the beauty is, do they use the drain and counter it and waste yet another counter next turn, and risk not having a counter for the River Boa or Rancor?


Ape:  I like the deck, as it really has a great chance against the top tier decks, but you're in trouble if you encounter several rogue decks like white weenie or some other non-tier deck or three during the tourney.  I might consider the Wild Mongrel to replace the Call of the Herd with them (solving the problem noted in the paragraph above).   I still like the Call's better, though.  Maybe I'll have to playtest.

[Freelancer]

Freelancer, remember that you can't equip the Mask of Memory under a Null Rod (correct me if I'm wrong!!!).

Ape.

Of course it can't, but most decklist stopped running null rod main. This deck is mostly considered a root maze deck and not a null rod deck anyway.
I commented on the decklist as posted in the first post.

Good luck in Paris!

On point 1:  I agree, it's low, but the deck hasn't a card with a casting cost bigger than 3, with most being only 1 or 2.  I haven't had much trouble with mana screw using the Diamond, but it does help (and has helped) the potential of putting on the pressure with multiple threats on the first turn.  Perhaps a Lotus Petal would work better.

Lotus petal might work, but I think elvish spirit guide will work better. Its also a 2/2 beatstick if you got nothing better to do.

On point 2 and 5:   I made a mistake....the 3 cards should be Grim Lavamancer instead of the Piledrivers.  My brain must have shorted out.  Right card, right functionality, wrong name.  I get the two confused sometimes.  I'll edit to correct.

Happens to the best off us.

On point 4:  Yes, Call can be drained....just like most any other card, I suppose.  But, the beauty is, do they use the drain and counter it and waste yet another counter next turn, and risk not having a counter for the River Boa or Rancor?

If sensei sensei (example) drains a big spell than 9/10 times they will cast so much draw that you won't be able to keep up (or simply win). Most mana drain decks are designed to capitalize on the drain mana the best they can, this often means you will be so severely setback that the game is often technically lost.

[Generic]

On point 4:  Yes, Call can be drained....just like most any other card, I suppose.  But, the beauty is, do they use the drain and counter it and waste yet another counter next turn, and risk not having a counter for the River Boa or Rancor?

If sensei sensei (example) drains a big spell than 9/10 times they will cast so much draw that you won't be able to keep up (or simply win). Most mana drain decks are designed to capitalize on the drain mana the best they can, this often means you will be so severely setback that the game is often technically lost.

I agree, Mana Drain can really ruin your day... but you'd still  have the same disadvantage running Elvish Spirit Guide, as it also costs 3 to cast (assuming you're trying to hard cast it, of course).  The spirit guide is great mana acceleration, but the Call is useful card advantage - if it dies, it'll come back for another target for the Rancor..and keep the pressure on.

This, combined with Berserk, is why I prefer it over the Wild Mongrel (card disadvantage, and not as good in the mid to late game versus control).  For example, an opponent thinks he'll win next turn, he'll definitely block an attacking Wild Mongrel, due to the obvious threat....but a lone 3/3 elephant token wouldn't hurt that much, would it, because he'll just take only three damage and still win next turn, right?  You'd be surprised how often they get Jedi Mind Tricked.

[Freelancer]

I agree, Mana Drain can really ruin your day... but you'd still  have the same disadvantage running Elvish Spirit Guide, as it also costs 3 to cast (assuming you're trying to hard cast it, of course).  The spirit guide is great mana acceleration, but the Call is useful card advantage - if it dies, it'll come back for another target for the Rancor..and keep the pressure on.

Call is entirely useless when the opponent has UU up, elvish spirit guide can also generate mana. Also you don't have the time to regrow it, since your opponent should be almost dead by than (there isn't much removal in T1 so 2/3 creatures can go all the way).

This, combined with Berserk, is why I prefer it over the Wild Mongrel (card disadvantage, and not as good in the mid to late game versus control).  For example, an opponent thinks he'll win next turn, he'll definitely block an attacking Wild Mongrel, due to the obvious threat....but a lone 3/3 elephant token wouldn't hurt that much, would it, because he'll just take only three damage and still win next turn, right?  You'd be surprised how often they get Jedi Mind Tricked.

If your opponents don't block a elephant token (when they don't need the creature and will win next turn) they are just plain bad. Also wild mongrel isn't card advantage because you are discarding dead cards, how usefull is that second root maze or that 5the land? Not to mention when you really start discarding cards you will end up with a dead opponent, don't underestimate the mongrel. Besides it is solid against control because it can easily slip under mana drain and sets them on a reasonably fast clock. You can't win the mid/late game versus control anyway unless you have a solid advantage (ie. a clock with disruption), because they will outdraw you and proceed to kill you. Our advantage is the early game.

[Imsomniac101]

This isn't really about RG beatz itself but more about the card Root Maze. How often do you cast it on your first turn? and is it any good outside of turn 1?

[Ape]

Of course, Root Maze is also good when you play it later on in the game, but with very different purpose.

A Root Maze on the first turn means mana denial for both players (and very likely an advantage for you), and a Root Maze later on in the game is either a dead card or a huge threat for your opponent, depending of the deck he or she is playing. Dragon, Sensei Sensei etc. can't go off if there is a Root Maze in play.
It really depends on what your opponent is playing, but the including of Wild Mongrel in this deck will make sure that Root Maze is never a 'really dead' card.

[jazzykat]

Wild Mongrel is just plain amazing. I find it difficult to believe that he would not enhance any beats deck. Furthermore, you get extra damage by pitching cards to mongrel and then using your lavamancer. Any one against adding him to the deck should play test with him.

And while we are talking about root maze, maybe Big O deserves another look.

[Imsomniac101]

Great. So its dead outside of turn 1, outside of Dragon and Sensei matches.

[Freelancer]

Great. So its dead outside of turn 1, outside of Dragon and Sensei matches.

Yes it is, but the early game power is more than enough to include it as a 4-off. Besides if it ever becomes dead, you can always pitch it to mongrel.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Great. So its dead outside of turn 1, outside of Dragon and Sensei matches.

Yes it is, but the early game power is more than enough to include it as a 4-off. Besides if it ever becomes dead, you can always pitch it to mongrel.

No it's not dead against all other decks. Also great vs CS, Stormbased combo, Staxx & Co, Charbelcher, Salvager and last but not least Affinity.

Beside this because of our 5 Strips/Wastes and the high number of fetchlands in most decks the manadenial effect is not only limited on a first turn Root Maze.

[Freelancer]

Of course it is not limited to the first turn, that is why I said early game. It isn't very strong in the mid/late game because by than most manabases have been developed, although some matches (charbelcher,sensei sensei and dragon come to mind) even a late game root maze is very powerfull.

What I meant was that the longer the game progresses the weaker it becomes in all matchups because mana bases have been developed, I simply shorted it to early game. (I'm tired, so correct me if I'm wrong)


Side: A late game strip on a fetchland (with maze in play) isn't very powerfull because they have plenty of mana available by than.


Edit: I just reread my post and noted I said the same thing 3 times, I will leave it as it is so my point will be a bit more clearer (as I said I'm tired).

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Sry Freelancer,
my post was more addressed at Imsomniac101. Not at you. I only wanted to give some more examples for a strong Root Maze after turn 1.

[Freelancer]

Sry Freelancer,
my post was more addressed at Imsomniac101. Not at you. I only wanted to give some more examples for a strong Root Maze after turn 1.

Next quote him than, and not me.

What do you think about my suggestion of memory mask?

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Mask of Memory is definetly a good card but i'm not sure if it is good for this deck. 4 Mana to get it working the first time seems a lot to me and another problem whould be the question what to cut for it.

I was in Paris the weekend with R/G and finished #18 out of 390-400 players. Here my Decklist:


Maindeck:
2x Forest
1x Mox Emerald
3x Mountain
1x Mox Ruby
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
1x Black Lotus
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland

3x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x River Boa
4x Kird Ape
3x Wild Mongrels
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Gorilla Shamane

4x Root Maze
4x Naturalize
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning
3x Rancor

Sideboard:
3x Artifact Mutation
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
4x Emerald Charm

My Matchups:
1. Round: unpowered Suicide Black with Red Sideboardsplash 2-1
2. Round: powered Control Slaver 2-1
3. Round: powered TPS 2-0
4. Round: powered U/R/W Staxx 2-1
5. Round: powered Mono Blue Control 0-2
6. Round: powered Salvager Oath 2-1
7. Round: powered Control Slaver 1-2
8. Round: powered Salvager Combo 2-1
9. Round: unpowered Bazaar Dragon 2-1

So i ended with 7 Wins 2 Loss and 0 Draws in the end.
Overall i'm very happy with the deck and sideboard too. I used every card in my board and no card from maindeck was useless. The only thing my really disapointed about is my 0-2 vs MonoUC. Game 1 i lost to a stupid error, i had neraly won the round and give it away because of my own fault :/. Game two he mulliganed to 6, forced my first turn Root Maze and played a first turn tinker coloss. Yeah....
But i think this shows again that R/G with RootMaze can be a very serious T1 Deck in a powered meta.

[Freelancer]

Mask of Memory is definetly a good card but i'm not sure if it is good for this deck. 4 Mana to get it working the first time seems a lot to me and another problem whould be the question what to cut for it.

Its actually 3 mana spread over 2 turns (2 to play and 1 to equip). The biggest problem is what to cut, for testing it I cutted 1 burn spell and a naturalize.



Congratulations on your excellent finish. Is it possible to make a small round by round tournament report? Just to see how the matches went.

[Machinus]

Where is the null rod? Did you miss it? Excellent work though. 18/400 is very commendable.

[Ape]

Congratz on your high finish! I was there too, with my own version of RG, but I died horribly, eventually dropping in the end. I have a few questions;

First, would you want to make any adjustments to your deck for upcoming events? Which cards were better, or more usefull then you expected, and which cards sucked? Second, four Naturalizes seems like a lot, but without Null Rod, four may be necessary. What do you think about Null Rod? How were the 4 Emerald Charm in the sideboard. I saw a lot of Oath, but is 4 not to much?

And finally, were you with Team T1 Germany?

Ape.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Congratulations on your excellent finish. Is it possible to make a small round by round tournament report? Just to see how the matches went.

Yes i will post this on Thursday, i have no time before :/


I don't play a Null Rod because i play Root Maze. I wanted to play some card that is effectiv against Combo but also usefull vs ofther decks. Root Maze simply has a effect on more decks compared to Null Rod. Every Deck plays fetchlands etc. Vs some decks the RootMaze works like a Null Rod (Sensei Sensei e.g). Together with Gorilla Shamane Root Maze works like a Null Rod again because the enemy will not get a chance to use his mox's before they are destroyed. Beside this Root Maze costs only 1 green Mana and is safer than Null Rod because of Artifact Hate.
So in my eyes Root Maze is supirior to Nul Rod in this Deck. It fits more in the hole Deckidea. And Root Maze + Null Rod are to many slots. Maybe 3 Null Rods in sideboard. But if you ask me i whould even not run them SB because i have the Pyrostatic Pillar that has more or less the same or even better effects in the matchups i whould side the Null Rod in (TPS, Salvager Combo, Sensei Sensei and Pillar can be used against Control + Aggrocontrol too).

4 Emerald Charms are very much thats right. Normaly i play 2-3 in SB. But during the Busjourney to Paris and the time before the turnament starts i saw very much Oath. So i decided to go up to 4 Chamrs. The matchups were i can use the Artifact Mutation are not so bad before boarding so 3 Mutations must be enought. Oath on the other side can be a very hard match so i wanted to have as much weapons as i can get for this matchup.

And yes i whould play exactly the same Deck+Sideboard again.
My two losses vs MonoUC were based on a heavy misplay from me in game 1, and a goodlike first turn tinker with forcebackup in game two after he mulliganed to 6. Vs CS i made a misplay too but i'm unsure if this was important or not because my situation was bad anyway. Game 3 i had to take mulligan down to 5 to see a single colored mana on my opening hand and he played a Chalice for 1 first turn. So If i had played without the misplays it could even be 8-1. But this was my fault, not a failury of the deck.

Yeah i was on of the guys with the blue "T1 Germany" shirts.

[KrA0nS]

Can't argue with Success but Null Rod is most definitly a hoser.

Once again, the TMD rules are here. In particular, rule 4 hasn't changed since this morning.
-Jacob