R/G beats discussion

[MCS]

Hi there to everybody, nice discussion about my favorite deck. I've managed to win two T1 tournaments (small local with lot of proxies, that means lot of tendril combo decks where around), and to place gigh in other 2. The tournaments had an average of 15 to 20 players each, so I'm talking about small tournaments, but the deck is still the same.

I've started to toy with r/g back in '96 when a standard r/g build had erhnam djins and nevinyrall's disk in it. The fastest combo deck at that time was cadaverous bloom, and you could easily fight it with emerald charm. Later I started to play with the survival/bazzar/rootwala-madness mechanism, since people started to play lots of keeper decks. Nimble moongoose was my major beatstick at that time, imune to anything except balance or disk.

My current version is very similiar to the one posted above, with the slight diference that I run null rods in sb, and I use man lands as aditional beaf to hit my opponent on the head. The strongest new adition to my deck was rot maze. I don't have enough words to tell you how strong this card can be. It stops ug from exploding in my face, gives me at least 1 turn more against oath, stops TPS or any other tendril based deck on killing me turn 1 or 2, gives me time to find an answer against belcher, etc.

In some previous discussions on mana drain there was a strong debate if you should run fetchalnds or land grant in this deck. Run fetchlands. Revealing a hand to your opponent is never good, and I've lost a few games by trying to land grant on turn 1, only to C it getting contered by my opponent. Here goes my current deck version:

//NAME: Critters
//            Creatures : 23
        4 Gorilla Shaman
        4 Grim Lavamancer
        4 Kird Ape
        4 Skyshroud Elite
        3 River Boa
        4 Elvish Spirit Guide
//            Utility spells: 7
        3 Naturalize
        4 Root Maze
//            Additional damage: 8
        4 Rancor
        4 Lightning Bolt
//            Mana: 17
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mountain
        1 Forest
        4 Wooded Foothills
        4 Taiga
        4 Treetop Village
//            LD: 5
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
SB:  3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB:  3 Artifact Mutation
SB:  3 Null Rod
SB:  3 Emerald Charm
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast

The one card I'm realy not sure about is wild mongrel. I must admit it looks realy good on paper, but curently I'm playing skyshroud elites, and most of the times they are 2/3 the same moment they start pouncing my opponent on the head. If I would try to sneak a mongrel and a fourth naturalize, I think they would have to hit the bench. Also, I think there is a must about playing 4 gorila shamans, not having 4 of the best weenie hoser in this format is just bad. Also, I realy like null rod as a toy against combo and slaver deck.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I have started to run pyro pillar as a 4 of in the MD, along with Root maze.  That means 8 generic hosers to every deck, and strong hate against combo.  I really like it, and it adds a little edge to the deck.  It kinda feels like xrobx's ankh build, except it hates against more than just lands.

It also opens up precious slots in the SB.  Maybe more hate against Oath like emerald charm, maybe even some aggro protection.  Obviously, meta dependent.

@MCS
Mongrel is really good here.  Well worth two slots to get big off dead root mazes, ESGs, naturalizes, and land.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Mongrel:
I play 3 and i don't miss the skyshroud elite anymore. Sure the elite is very strong but the Mongrel is better. We have enought 1cc drops and mainly kird who does the same job as elite a bit better.

Pyrostatic Pillar:
I like it. I really like it. I tried 3 instead of 3 Rancor in my build and they had some very nice games. But in the end i decided to take them out again before i went to Paris because i didn't knew the meta. I whould still like to play 3-4 in maindeck but i don't find any slots to cut for. Only rancor. But Rancor is very strong too and helps in some matchups that are not so good like Oath and some Aggro/control like Madness.. So i'm a bit unsure about this.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I was thinking of dropping a Shaman for a 3rd mongrel, but I am kinda warry since he is part of the hate.  I may experiment with dropping 1 ape.

In my build, I had 2 extra slots that I was using fireblast in (to end games quicker).  I took those out with 1 rancor and 1 naturalize to add 4 pillar.  Its been working really great, getting more than enough extra damage through to cover the 4th rancor and the 2 fireblast.  It is also good against a plethora of decks (any control deck, most combo decks, and even against some aggro), so I think it should be good in an unkown metagame.  If you see a lot of decks with targets you need naturalize for, I think it would be easy to drop something else for a 4th pillar.

[Astro]

I was thinking of dropping a Shaman for a 3rd mongrel, but I am kinda warry since he is part of the hate.  I may experiment with dropping 1 ape.

In my build, I had 2 extra slots that I was using fireblast in (to end games quicker).  I took those out with 1 rancor and 1 naturalize to add 4 pillar.  Its been working really great, getting more than enough extra damage through to cover the 4th rancor and the 2 fireblast.  It is also good against a plethora of decks (any control deck, most combo decks, and even against some aggro), so I think it should be good in an unkown metagame.  If you see a lot of decks with targets you need naturalize for, I think it would be easy to drop something else for a 4th pillar.

Good call on the Pillar.  Thats pretty funny.  I've recently been testing them and Ankh (think I like the Pillars better).  What clued me in was a Sligh deck that actually placed decently at one of the SCG tourneys that was running them both.  I figured R/G Beatz has more tools tools than Sligh why not give em a shot. 

So far it does jack against Workshop Aggro, IMO that match up needs a lot of work.  I think 4 side board Goblin Vandal should do the trick also should be gold against Workshop Prison, Stax and such.  And yes it provides some very necessary speed in the Oath match up, which I feel is much better due to its inclusion.

[[supa_t(im)]]

You are having trouble with workshop aggro?  Even with ESGs for Sphere mana, bolt, lavamancer and naturalize for juggs/other fat/welder?  Then SB mutations?  And Mox Monkey?

Weird.

What about jitte in Rancor's spot?

[MCS]

Jitte is 2 slow for the deck, by the time you start using it you are usualy dead or locked or near anything of those two situations. I was running skyshroud elite because I needed speed, something that rancor perhaps acomplishes best in the deck.

Regarding pilar, I think it is a great addition maindeck, but most of all you have to look at it as a metagame choice. For ex., running in an enviorment with much oath pillar is not so good, against most aggro builds it can be good and bad and it usualy shines only in an enviorment polluted with a pletora of different tendrils.decs.

I'll try to test out the deck a little bit more about the comment. The thing that ithches me most at this time is what is the second burn of choice? Chain lightning - I think not for being sorcery. Perhaps seal of fire, magma jet or incinerate. Need help, plz.

[Dxfiler]

Howdy.  I love kird apes.  My current version of RG beats can be seen over in the tourney report forum. I don't want to double post it. 

I've been watching the thread for a while but haven't had the urge to post anything until MCS asked what the secondary burn spell should be for this deck.

Incinerate.

In my mind it's not even close.  Given the state of the meta right now (wide open), incinerate is the most versatile.  Chalice for 1 is a big enemy of rg beats, and incinerate can help seal the deal when your other spells can't be played.  Chain lightning is a fine card, but the fact that it's a sorcery, easily chalice-able (yeah it's not a real word :-p) and can be sent back at you makes it seem sub-par at the moment. 

I really like [ftn][fh]Negator's build of the deck.  The maindeck seems very tight but i'd suggest trying hearth kami over wild mongrel.  HK has been nothing but money for me.  Also, I can't picture this deck without 4 taigas.  You're never unhappy to draw one (I would have loved one in game 3 of my finals match :-p).

I'm torn on rancors right now.  I know the card is a natural fit and it's in most builds, but I don't like drawing a card that isn't a threat on its own or a disruption spell.  The key to RG beats is fast threats backed up by disruption.  The threats and disruption vary, but that's always been the heart of the deck in my opinion.  Rancor serves as an enchancer.  It's good when you're already winning but it won't pull you out of most holes and it isn't an independent threat, which is my biggest problem with it.  Right now the rancor slots go to hidden gibbons.  I've been running them for over a year and they've been stellar.  I don't see gibbons on many forum lists and I think you guys are missing out on an extremely underrated card.  Granted in some matchups they are pure crap, but those matchups are few and far between.   

When portal/9th is legal in type 1, I think Jungle Lion will be a must-include for this deck.  When it's legal I'll probably try out more offensive driven versions, which will include rancor.  The time almost seems right for hidden Guerillas as well.

That's all of my random thoughts on the deck for now, but this thread sure beats the hell out of the last one (which featured such gems as "quirion sligh"), so I'm sure I'll be chiming in with some more stuff.  Feedback is always appreciated. 

Talk to you later.

- Dave Feinstein 

   

[[supa_t(im)]]

I kinda took offense to you blowing off the other 2 threads.  Quirion Dryad was mentioned once, by me, and I even said its NOT for this deck.  So maybe if you actually read the threads, you'd find that they weren't actually bad.

I think root maze is superior to null rod in every match.  It helps against combo more, it stalls Oath a lot, and is generally more versatile.  Null rod is still good and I kept it in the SB, but root maze just gives people fits.

I think rancor should be at least a 3 of in the deck.  Sure it doesn't count as a threat on its own, but its good on any one of your threats, and you SHOULD have at least one out.  It can pull you out of a whole, especially against some of the decks worst matchups.  A rancored river boa against Oath is golden.

Would you have prefered pyro pillar over blood moon?  It seems like it could have hurt more than one deck.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Rancor vs Pillar
pro Rancor:
- can make every of our creatures into a mighty threat

pro Pillar:
- is a threat on itself
- we get 3-4 Sideboardslots assuming that Pillar was in your SB before and we don't want Rancor in your SB

I really don't know whats better for this deck. Only based on this short list Pillar looks supiroir to me but from my experiance with many games the "every creature gets a migthy threat" argument is stronger than people may think.
The Metagame will effect the decision too. Many TPS & Co or other combodecks (Not dragon) in your meta whuld support the Pillarstrategy. Some more Roguedecks or other aggros whould be better with Rancor. Vs most controll decks both are good if you ask me.
Another question whould be if Rancor has be the card to cut for Pillar. In my eyes Pillar+Rancor can limit our self because we get more and more damage (if we play Rancor multiple times under a Pillar) but it whould be very aggro against the opponent too.


2nd Burn Spell:
The Chalice argument against Chain Lightning is a good one. Being sorcery doesn't make it better.
In my oppinion Chain Lightning is good because:
- It generally better fits better in the manacurve. I often can spare one mana to play a damage spell and still being able to regenerate my boa or cast a different spell.
- And a first Turn welder...without manaacceleration i can't cast my incinerate and he will be able to use the welder. But maybe this is not such an important situation with 4 Bolts MD and 6 (3xESG, Mox, Mox, Lotus) availible accelerations.

[Dxfiler]

I kinda took offense to you blowing off the other 2 threads.  Quirion Dryad was mentioned once, by me, and I even said its NOT for this deck.  So maybe if you actually read the threads, you'd find that they weren't actually bad.

I don't blow off threads.  I read them and if I have something to contribute then I'll do it.   There was one thread in particular that ended up awful.  It was an early GR beats thread which I read and tried to have discussions in.  The end of that thread featured a quirion dryad deck that had ball lightnings also.  Dryads were mentioned alot more than once.  My comment about the thread sucking was not directed at you at all, but the sad fact is that first thread from a few months back was god awful.  Maybe you didn't notice that it became locked for that reason.

I think root maze is superior to null rod in every match.  It helps against combo more, it stalls Oath a lot, and is generally more versatile.  Null rod is still good and I kept it in the SB, but root maze just gives people fits.

I've tried out both extensively and I just don't think root maze belongs in the deck currently.  RM counteracts the quick beats that the deck tries to get in.  It does not combo with wooded foothills.  Often times for me root maze just ended up being a nusiance.  If I had root maze instead of null rod game 1 against Dan Eamonns's oath deck I would have lost.  Null Rod often acts as mana denial, which is a very crucial element for RG beats against any deck.

For beatdown, root maze is just awful.  You drop it against food chain goblins and they just laugh.  Null rod is strictly superior here because although you'd still prefer not to draw it, it can cripple them if they kept a light acclerant hand such as some guys + land + mox.

Against control, specificially against control slaver, Null Rod just takes the cake here.  Root maze is ok early on, stopping potential early nut draws, but that's not what slaver is about.  They don't have to kill you with an early god draw, they can combo off at there leisure and rootmaze only sets them back a turn at most usually.  Null rod on the other hand is just pure hell for them.  If you don't believe me, ask a control slaver player.  If Rod hits they have to re-think their entire plan of attack.

Against Combo both cards have their merits.  Root Maze is better against dragon.  For TPS and belcher I'll take null rod any day of the week.  If null rod drops in either of those matchups before they combo off they either remove it from play or they lose.  Root maze is still good against both of those decks too, but it isn't game over. 

I think rancor should be at least a 3 of in the deck.  Sure it doesn't count as a threat on its own, but its good on any one of your threats, and you SHOULD have at least one out.  It can pull you out of a whole, especially against some of the decks worst matchups.  A rancored river boa against Oath is golden.

If you draw a creature light hand then you've effectively mulliganed.  As far as oath goes, I'd much rather have hidden gibbons because they're going to activate it immediately and as soon as they do, they're on a clock.  Rancor is not an immediate clock,  it's a clock enchancer.  There already has to be a threat swinging before rancor can become effective.  That is not the case with hidden gibbons.

Would you have prefered pyro pillar over blood moon?  It seems like it could have hurt more than one deck.

I ran both cards in my sideboard... and both will be staying in my sideboard.

For the record, I'm not discounting your version  Tim.  GR beats is a metagame deck where card choices depend largely on where you play.  So arguments about specific card choices to come up with one  uber version of beats is kind of pointless.  I'm just defending the cards that I use and why I use them in my version.

- Dave Feinstein

[[supa_t(im)]]

@Negator
I use pillar in place of the 2nd burn and 1 rancor.  One rancor and one beater usually does the trick, and the most damage I've done to myself was 6 (sounds like a lot, but I was playing a combo deck, so I needed a couple threats out).  I guess its probably a meta choice.

@Dxfiler
I must have missed that thread, because I don't recall a ball lightning in any dryad deck.  I do remember the threads getting out of hand, and I agreed that they should have been closed.

As for root maze, I've always love the tempo it grants me.  Against FCG with a mana light hand, root maze is great.  It comes down easily before they can play their stuff, and slows them down for at least 2 turns.  This also gives you a chance to play shaman or lavamancer, which can really wreck their day.  Most of the time, null rod does very little to them.

Against control its not the only tool you have.  Looking at the card without looking at the rest of the deck doesn't do it justice.  Slaver shouldn't be a problem for the deck to begin with, and root maze helps to stall their early mana development for your other hate cards to come out.  Against Oath, I certainly prefer root maze since it makes their precious orchards come into play tapped.  Mana denial is key, and root maze affects both lands and artifacts.

Against combo null rod is certainly not an autowin.  They have dark ritual and since their land is fine, plenty of mana to use a dark ritual.  Root maze makes it so even their dark rits can't be used the turn they play a land.  And the fact that it comes down on turn 1 more often than rod makes it more valuable.

However, I must state that I DO keep 3 null rod in my SB because of its uses in various matchups.  I can't argue with success, and I know null is a powerful card.

Gibbons definitely is a good, and something to look into.  Its been talked about before, but I haven't heard a lot about success.  I don't own any currently, so I haven't used them.

I'm not discounting yours, and I think you bring up good points.  Both of us are just speaking from what works for us.  I understand that.

[Cab]

What is the reason for running burn in this deck? Lightning Bolt is an inferior 1 drop to almost all the other ones in the deck, so why not run fire/ice instead as you can hit a welder or two or you can hit the life points. The only reason I can see for not running fire/ice instead of lighthing bolt is if your meta has a lot of decks that use and abuse Juggernaut, which doesn't seem to be happening anywhere.

What about Rack and Ruin or Oxidize or Chalice of the Void? COTV can add a lot to this deck especially when set to 0 against almost any deck in the format. Plus, if you can get it out against Oath (unlikely) set at 2, then you basically win the game, or else they have to Wish for Chain of Vapor or Rushing River if the build runs Wishes.

Has anyone thought about using the Troll in R/G beats? It seems to be pretty good because it can block a Jugg and still live if you regen, which is what seems to be the fear of this deck.

I agree that Root Maze is good on paper, but I haven't tested it yet in my build. It seems that you guys really like it against control, which seems to be the easy matches for this deck.

What do you guys think of Chalice and the other cards I mentioned (mainly Chalice)?

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

Rack and Ruin / Oxidize
I whould not suggest to use Rack and Ruin or Oxidize because of Artifact Mutation.
The Tokens it generates are very nice. It's not just a defens card like R&R or Oxidize, it can be used for offensive (by the way, we get tokens if we destroy a Darkstell Coloss. I think this should not be forgotten because tinker/Coloss is included in many decks at least in my meta).  2cc is no problem too. Thats why i play it over R&R or Oxidize.

Fire/Ice
I can only see Fire supiror vs Lightning Bolt vs FCG or Fishlike decks. Decks with many X/1 Creatures. That are situations it can show it's power because we get card advantage.
Aginst decks i normaly whould deal one damage to a creature and the other one to the player (beside goblin Welder i don't see many situations for this...?) i don't think it is better than Bolt. Why ?
Sure, i deal one more damage to the player. But if i cast the spell directly on my opponent to finish him i deal this one damage less. So it's balanced. But thanks to the higher casting costs of fire and the fact that i can't kill any X/3 creature with fire i prefer the Bolt.

Root Maze
I can only say one thing. It looks strong on paper and it's even stronger in real play. Just give it a try and test it.

Troll Ascetic
It's cool and very hard to handle for the opponent. I played it a while but in the end i decided to tokk him out again due to the fact of its relativ high cc AND the 2 mana it needs to combat savely. I use the Mongrel instead. It's cheaper and i don't need mana to save/pump it.

[Cab]

I run R&R, oxidize, and Artifact Mutation in my R/G deck. It's not really beats, it's something else. Can't really say what, but it's something else.

I assume that Root Maze is good against control, but don't we usually win that matchup fairly easily anyways? Is it really that much of a house against combo like it seems it would be?

Rancor seems like it would be good, but is it really superior to Jitte in most matchups? The mana curve for R/G beats seems to be pretty low, so I don't see why Jitte would not be run as it can be better than Rancor in some situations. Then again, Rancor only requires one mana for usually only being used once. I'll just post my decklist now:

Creatures:
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Kird Ape
3 Troll Ascetic
3 River Boa

Spells:
3 Fire/Ice
3 Rancor (was SOFAI)

Hosers:
2 REB
3 Artifact Mutation
3 R&R
2 Oxidize
1 Naturalize (should I replace the oxidizes with Naturalizes?)
3 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void

Mana:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island (stupid to have this?)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Factories

Board (I expect to see a lot of blue in the tourny):
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pillar
3 Pyroblast
2 REB
1 Null Rod
3 ?


Now, my question is this: Should I take out the artifact hate except for the mutations, and if so, then what should I put in? I was thinking possibly Root Maze (don't have any), Skyshroud Elites, 1 more Rancor, 1 more Kird Ape, and some burn.

What do you guys think?

[Astro]

I assume that Root Maze is good against control, but don't we usually win that matchup fairly easily anyways? Is it really that much of a house against combo like it seems it would be?

Actually yes.  Its quite stunning, especially dropped 1st turn.  Not just against combo either, but also against other aggro matchups.

Rancor seems like it would be good, but is it really superior to Jitte in most matchups? The mana curve for R/G beats seems to be pretty low, so I don't see why Jitte would not be run as it can be better than Rancor in some situations. Then again, Rancor only requires one mana for usually only being used once.

Personally I feel Rancor is much superior.  A first turn Land - Root Maze - ESG - Critter is hot, especially when Rancor can be played the following turn creating the tempo needed to kill your opponent before your deck runs out of juice.  Jitte won't hit the table equipped to a creature until much later in the game.  In any event the deck doesn't really need the removal aspects of the card as its already fairly loaded with Lightning Bots, Chain Lightnings, and Lavamancers.

Now, my question is this: Should I take out the artifact hate except for the mutations, and if so, then what should I put in? I was thinking possibly Root Maze (don't have any), Skyshroud Elites, 1 more Rancor, 1 more Kird Ape, and some burn.

What do you guys think?

I think you should look closer at Negators list and go by his.  However, Artifact Mutations and REB's are nice meta dependant additions and could possibly replace the 4 Naturalize in his list, but I wouldn't play 4 of both though.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I've been testing with 4 pillar MD and 3 jitte MD with no rancor.  I must say, jitte is a freakin bomb and a half.  I love rancor, but jitte can actually allow this deck to recover after it goes into topdeck mode.  Its useful against Oath as well, because three hits from a jitte kills akroma.  It is a little slower to cast than rancor, but when you do the math, it actually kills a turn faster.

MD Pillar is awesome.  This is not only for combo and control matchups, but if you have board advantage over the opponent (which is not hard), you can quickly win the damage game.  It also goes well with jitte since you can even gain lfe if you need to, and remove critters with more freeness than lavamancer.

[zulander]

This is the build with MD pillar's in them so you can take a looksee.

Mana:22
4 wooded foothills
2 taiga
4 wasteland
1 stripmine
3 mountain
3 forest
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
4 esg

creatures/beats :21
4 grim lavamancer
4 mox monkey
4 kird ape
4 river boa
2 wild mongrel
3 rancor

control:15
4 root maze
4 pyrostatic pillar
3 naturalize
4 lightning bolt

[Cab]

I'm wondering if anyone here has played at the Eudemonia tournaments in Berkeley, and if they have, then I'm wondering what the meta mostly is (lots of Staxx, Oath, combo, other?).

I took out the Trolls and 1 R&R (too hard to get GG) in favor of Skyshroud Elites , and I took out the 2 Oxdizes in favor of 1 more Rancor and 2 Mongrels. Also took out 3 Null Rods in favor of 3 Pillars. Also took out 3 lands (1 Volcanic 2 Factories) in favor of 3 ESGs.

[Luiggi]

I was wondering what people think of Dxfiler's R/G Beats deck, that he piloted to a 2nd place finish at the latest Beanie Exhange tournament. To avoid gratuitous decklist-posting, in case this is something that's been discussed, his report can be read here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23261.0 .

Luiggi

[Ben Kossman]

Has anyone tested Aether Vial with Root Maze and PP? Seems like good synergy but I'm not sure it's aggressive enough.

[Cab]

I'm pretty sure it would be too slow for this deck, as this deck needs to usually win fast or else they will lose in a long drawn out game. Plus, the deck is more aggro and not aggro-ctonrolesque like fish is.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I've tried aether vial, but quickly dismissed it because without a draw engine it takes up precious disruption slots.

[silvernail]

Something Ive been testing with this deck is skullclamp. My reason for including this card was that i was looking for a way out vs oath decks and the best way to do that is to not have creatures in play, which prior to forbidden orchard seeing print was easy enough.
     Now however they have a tendency to drop mox orchard oath and say go. Skullclamp nicely removes 1/1 spirit tokens from the game giving me two cards in the process and aside from that you can equip them on your men to deal some extra damage if your opponent doesn't want to give you two cards by blocking. Also you can cast additional copies of your x/1 guys and clamp them for cards.
    I haven't gotten any tournament play with this idea yet but i will be on sunday at the power 9 tourney in Syracuse so ill let people know how it goes.meanwhile what do you think of adding the clamp to the deck?

[shade88]

Just to point out, an oath player can simply tap forbidden orchard at end of turn can't he?

[silvernail]

mm indeed but hopefully you can wasteland before that happens :-\, i didnt think of that though i do however still think clamp can help the deck as you can still "sac" those spirit tokens to look for more cards.mm random question what if i berserk their creature after their attack phase?

[Jujulautre]

You can't. Berserk's Oracle text has changed, and is now:

Play Berserk only before the combat damage step.
Target creature gains trample and gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is its power. At end of turn, destroy that creature if it attacked this turn.

[silvernail]

i see then oath still remains a problem, i however think skullclamp is benifical to the deck as it can draw cards quite well.

[Brutha]

I think you should play Karplusan Forest over the fechies. You have already enough forests for kirds.
Fetchies + Rootmaze =

[Astro]

I think you should play Karplusan Forest over the fechies. You have already enough forests for kirds.
Fetchies + Rootmaze =

Agreed!

Anyway, the deck is really powerful I'm surprised it doesn't see more play.  I've been testing it against alot of Control Slaver lately with a buddy.  Pre-sideboard I've been kicking his ass and even go 1 and 1 when he sideboards and I don't.  I'm surprised that Negator was having trouble with this match up.

On another note I've had Pyrostatic Pillar work nicely for me however there have been a few games that it has killed me and I don't think its quite as good as I once had.  The list I was playing was almost identical to Negator's list with the exception that I run 3 Pillars in the place of Chain Lightning.

I'm really interested in running 4 Red Elemental Blasts main deck.  Also, I still really feel this deck needs a way to draw cards and I don't think Skullclamp is the way to go.  Has anyone taken a peek at the next expansion to see if there was anything useful?