Re: Filling out 5 Colour Stax

[PipOC]

That's a very good point. The one thing I can see though, is that we have a slightly different opinion on the Gargoyle's niche in the deck. It seems that you feel he is a card to buy you time to set a lock, whereas I feel that he's the icing on the cake. I think he could be very effective at making a tight lock into an impenetrable lock by nullifying that single Rebuild, Rack & Ruin, etc. that would otherwise provide the opponent an out. As I said, you have a solid point, I just want people to understand where my opinion of the card is coming from.

Thanks for the input.

Later,
Dave

Well how many situations are there where this would be better than karn, or titan?  Both of them provide devastating effects that can do just what you want gargoyle to do, nullify the opponents ability to break out of the lock, but karn and titan both also provide immediate permanent advantage, something that gargoyle doesn't do.

[Lunar]

whereas I feel that he's the icing on the cake

so in other words you are saying he is a "win-more" card...which is just really not something CronStax needs.....

[yespuhyren]

Out of curiosity, why not use

Tsunami / Boil (I prefer a green sorcery over a red instant because of vulnerability to blue blast)

instead of choke, as choke does not help you get rid of permanents, and gives them useless permanents to sacrifice to smokestack.  Wouldn't it be better to spend  1 more mana, but to make them tap down and sacrifice more useful permanents to smokestack and wire?

[Moxlotus]

1 more mana is a lot.  And Choke affects all islands in play and all future islands that will be played.  Tsunami/Boil doesn't do that.

[yespuhyren]

True, but if you have a smokestack in play, why worry about future islands when we want to lock them down to nothing ASAP.  I mana is a lot, but shouldn't it be doable?

[Shean]

I conclude darkblast is main deck worthy in any deck w black.

I've been testing Darkblast lately as well and IMO it's the best Welder removal in the format.  Recurring Welder removal?  I'll take it.  It also really helps the 5C Stax matchup because you really only need 1 to nullify all 4 of their welders.  I'm looking at 1 MD and 1-2 in SB.

after a week of playing this deck constantly I say supresion field is better off just being metagame slots or some other lock component, maybe null rod.

I agree.  Suppression Field isn't getting the job done IMO.  But after this conclusion, this is the question we have to ask ourselves:  "Is Null Rod better than Mox Monkey?"

I think the answer is no.  If you're not running Supression Field, there's no real reason to run Null Rod over the Hungry Monkey.

[vroman]

null rod vs gorilla shaman

nrod can be cast by workshop, or any combination of 2 other mana in the deck. monkey can only be cast by brass, gemstone or ruby.

nrod immediately turns off all existing moxes, and prevents use of future moxes preemptively.

nrod shuts off key utility cards and win conditions like slaver, equipment, vial, etc.

nrod makes most combo decks unwinnable, ie bomberman, sensei, doomsday, belcher

monkey gains actual permanent advantage.

w suficient mana, monkey can take down bigger meals like crucibles, that nrod cant touch.

monkey combos w welder to sweep boards of artifacts.

I conclude that n-rod is the more powerfully efficient card.

[Revvik]

Gorilla Shaman serves to the face for 1 a turn.
Gorilla Shaman fizzles Goblin Welder activations, effectively keeping you from losing the game against certain other decks.
When the opponent has no more Moxen / threatening artifacts, Gorilla Shaman is a permanent to be tapped / sacrificed.
I honestly think Gorilla Shaman is a much better choice here.

[Moxlotus]

True, but if you have a smokestack in play, why worry about future islands when we want to lock them down to nothing ASAP.  I mana is a lot, but shouldn't it be doable?

If you have a smokestack and are able to cast Choke or Tsunami-you are winning the game.  You cast the Stack with a MWS, so you would have to have MWS +4 other mana.  That's not likely. 

The key is to think about cards on their own terms.  Choke is another option for turn 1 or 2 lock spell.  Tsunami isn't.

[PacmanXSA]

Please also note that monkey doesn't dampen your own mana acceleration too.

Null Rod, in my build anyways, is (and has pretty much always been) a sideboard card against many combo decks and slaver.

Pac

[Sean Ryan]

Null rod is much less effective in 5c Stax than in the UBA version or aggro-prison.  Artifacts make up 1/3 of your mana sources.   The problem lies in the fact that you are much more dependant upon those artifacts to cast the 5c spells that make up 1/2 of your threats.  And the Mox Monkey is infinitly sexier, the Null Rod "does nothing." 


4 non artifact casting cost spells are basically unplayable.  That includes, NetherVoid, Titana's song, or Tsuanami.

Sean

[vroman]

clearly the waterbury results have an impact on this discussion. Juggernautgos 5c stax build honestly looks very unappealing on paper.

4 mishra's workshop
2 wasteland        I tried playing only 2 wastes to make room for colored mana in an earlier build, but hes only got 7 rainbow lands, plus some half colors. most stax runs 8 or 9 rainbows + 4 wastes.
1 strip mine
1 library of alexandria      novel
4 gemstone mine
3 city of brass
1 adarkar wastes    WTF?
1 tolarian academy
1 barbarian ring
1 mana crypt
1 mox emerald
1 mox sapphire
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 mox pearl
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 black lotus
1 sundering titan
1 mind's eye                great synergy w library, but a fat drain target thats hardly a game winner
1 possessed portal        game breaker card, but very hard to get in play, more so w only 3 welders
1 duplicant
1 trinisphere
3 sphere of resistance   resistors are a great turn 1 play, thus seeing them in the opening is key. and they are cumulative, Id only play 4 or 0
4 smokestack
2 crucible of worlds     it must be hard to win the stax mirror w this few crucibles
2 null rod
4 thirst for knowledge
3 goblin welder
1 enlightened tutor   over vamp?
1 crop rotation
1 gorilla shaman
1 balance
1 fastbond
1 ancestral recall
1 tinker
1 fact or fiction        wow
1 time walk             stax players like to shun this card bc of slightly bad synergy w smoky, but remember, it really is broken
1 march of the machines  when your already playing titan and duplicant, is this necesary?

noticably absent:
chalice
black tutors
yawgmoths will

very interesting deck w some frankly out there card choices. probably there are solid ideas here that could stand better tuning. how good is minds eye? is fact or fiction remotely playable in this archetype? why the blue white pain land? why is vamp not strictly better than enlightened?
but hell you won the tournament something is going right here.

[Lunar]

On first glance and without hearing much of what the deck builder has to say ill make a few assumptions (yes I know about it making an ass out of me...but hey it happens)

Adarkar Wastes - This will lead into the tutor issue too...remember this is a guess...I think he realized that he was only running a couple of colors overall (especially with only 3 welders) and he was tired of ALWAYS taking damage from cities and bring...

E.Tutor - This fetches ALMOST everything in the deck, but without a -2 to the life column...while this really shouldnt be an issue I have to assume that it was a deciding factor....

if those two assumptions arent correct then I would have to guess that he either didnt have the appropriate cards, or the cards he had didnt match his other ones (because if you have 3 nice Arabian cities and one chronicals one it just looks tacky, maybe his adarkar wastes is a nice signed foil one or something...maybe its a japanese signed e.tutor as well and it just looked baddass and thus HAD to be run...I know id probably do it to be a smart ass)

I do wonder how often he got portal into play...and beyond that I really wonder how good it really is here with only 2 crucibles and no squee (since you are still going -1 without something like exploration in there to let you play 2 lands...remember that you do the sacraficing at the end of BOTH players turns...) Cerebral Assasin is still the only deck ive seen actually use portal correctly...and it still has some problems getting it into play and making it work just right....

For the resistor thing...I am guessing he was going with roland changs theory that trinisphere is the 4th sphere and that it should be an even amount like the other 4 ofs...I would run all 5 personally, but hey, its tough to argue with the guy that won gencon and the guy that just won waterbury...

[Disburden]

clearly the waterbury results have an impact on this discussion. Juggernautgos 5c stax build honestly looks very unappealing on paper.

[/color]
1 march of the machines  when your already playing titan and duplicant, is this necesary?

noticably absent:
chalice
black tutors
yawgmoths will

very interesting deck w some frankly out there card choices. probably there are solid ideas here that could stand better tuning. how good is minds eye? is fact or fiction remotely playable in this archetype? why the blue white pain land? why is vamp not strictly better than enlightened?
but hell you won the tournament something is going right here.

I don't know about anyone else but March of the Machines was awesome for me when  I tested it the other day. I was running a Suppression Field Build I've been working on lately, quite frankly I haven't been liking it since I can't use Karn effectively as a kill. A few days later Waterbury happened and now I have March of the Machines in my deck with the Fields. Running only two Wasteland helps out the fact that S. Field locks out you own Strip effects while Tomb helps you cast colored spells more efficiently.


Edit: I worked out a rough list lastnight after seeing the Waterbury list. It is in the rough stages and testing has been rough since I work so much and I haven't gotten much time since lastnight to prove its worth but I think the list looks strong in many ways. I should mention again that I love in NY so the meta is all Drains:

4 Smokestack
3 Null Rod
1 3sphere
4 Suppression Field
1 March of the Machines
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Cow

1 Ancestral
1 Demonic
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vamp
1 Will
1 Tinker
1 Balance
1 Crop Rotation

2 Chains
2 ITEOC

5 Moxen
1 petal
1 Lotus
1 Sol ring
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Crypt
1 Vault
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
3 COB
4 Gemstone mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Workshop

Sideboard Features Colossus for a Tinker Target, Pryoclasms, Cotv, REBs, 2 Choke and I'm unsure of what else so far.

[Sean Ryan]

Disburden,

Your list looks almost identical to what I came up with.  However, in the current metgame I think running Stax with Welders is a must.  With Gifts and soon to be Goat making up the largest chunk of the meta, you need an answer to colossus beyond just stopping the Tinker/Oath.  Welder fills this need.  Duplicant may also take the place of Trike as an answer to both Colosssus and Welder.

1st Waterbury,

How?!!?! How can this list be right?

I'm eager to hear a tournamnt report.  I bet he won by amassing card advantage, and getting lucky on both draws and pairings.

What stands out most byond the strange singletons, is the massive amount of draw:
A. Recall (standard)
Fact or Fiction
TfK x4
Mind's eye
LoA

Thats nearly the same as Control Slaver!  This emphasis on draw is the opposite strategy of CronStax and remnicent of early builds that ran draw 7s with Meditate, yet much less dependant upon acheiving a soft lock before drawing cards.

Possessed Portal - same casting cost as Titan, nearly as game breaking.  If you are running a full compliment of TfK and Welders I don't see why not.

Manabase - 27 sources is probally as low as you can go with Stax.  He is only running 6 cards that that the Adakar Waste can't fuel but a Shivan Ref would have been stricly better considering he only runs 2 white cards maindeck.  Maybe it was an Asian Foil. 

Anyway, got to run.

Sean

[Juggernaut GO]

look at the sideboard boys.  almost entirely blue/white.
Besides, adakar wastes is the shit.
And against control, mind's eye is a game breaker, and it swings for 5.  Every game I won, I had card advantage and board advantage.  I don't play a deck that just gets answers to every threat you play, I play to go for the throat and win.  If I don't win the game, oh well, magic is my FUN hobby, poker is my serious life or death hobby.

You can rag on my list and say I was lucky with matchups but whatever, since you didn't see the massive amount of control decks at the top tables you wouldn't understand why I ran the deck I ran.  Anything other then a workshop mirror for this deck is a good matchup.  There is no way I would bring a deck like this to SCG chicago and expect to do well, I wouldn't even play a workshop deck, I would build some sort of drain deck that uses cards people think suck, because that's all I ever do.  Im  not gonna write a report because I didn't take notes all day long, I don't even remember what I played against round 2.

To answer some of your specific questions, why enlightened tutor?  This card fetches everything in the deck I could possibly need.  There is so much draw I never had an issue not having a strip/wasteland, vampiric tutor is just lame.  The common notion with  people is that you have to have a core set of 56 cards that never change then you can add your own 4 to the mix and call it your own deck build. 

Card advantage is way more important then getting a crucible lock going right off the bat, thats why this deck packs fastbond and null rod, so you can catch up mid game and then just take the entire board over.  Fastbond + crucible = GG

here is why adarkar waste over shivan reef:
side:
4 blue elemental blast
3 swords to plowshares
2 disenchants
2 ray of revelation
2 sacred ground
2 choke



here's my matchups so you can say I luck sacked my way through swiss again
in the 8 rounds of swiss i got paired against
round 1:oath 2-0
round 2:cant remember what i played against here
round 3:mono red uba stax   2-1
round 4:tog with red   2-1
round 5:control slaver, my 1 loss in swiss   0-2
round 6:dragon 2-1
round 7:dragon  2-0
round 8:mono blue control we ID

top 16
blue/red fish  2-1
dragon 2-1
gifts, no welder   2-0
gifts with welder 2-1

[Lunar]

I dont think we are trying to call you a bad player or bad deck builder or even that you just lucksacked it through the event (well hey, even the best players HAVE to have some luck going for them) but what we are wondering about is some of the stranger choices...

Can you give us some better explanations for e.Tutor vs Vampiric? Vampiric costs you 2 life and cannot be played with adarkar wastes, but other than that it is superior in every way to e tutor....

If you are running a full compliment of TfK and Welders I don't see why not.

Getting it into play is one thing...making it work optimally is another. Possessed Portal cant be a hard lock in this deck...why would you run this vs something like say a duplicant/titan/trike/karn/other lock piece...etc etc etc?  Since you cannot draw with it in play you must have march in hand to win with it otherwise your opponent just waits till the whole game is reset then just starts again like you must....Im just curious about this one (since im an assasin player and really enjoy portal)

Card advantage is way more important then getting a crucible lock going right off the bat

But isnt that card advantage also????

The build you have is certainly interesting, its just that many people are more used to more traditional stax builds and we just want to know (what is the national enquirer's slogan again?)

[MoxMonkey]

I think it comes down to play style.  His deck can Draw cards.  This allows him to drop bomb after bomb after bomb and a couple draw spells with them.  Drawing lets him get back into it and try again when Rack hits.  The problem with your Core set decks is that they Roll to Rack and Ruin.  This build goes around that and can put down the beats when time comes.  This is a great example of Metagaming at its best.  He knows what the NE metagame is like and this deck copes with the number of Drains and Racks.  You want to stop his draw but at the same time you needa stop his threats.  Its a very different take on the deck but it does its job.  Well done JuggernautGo hope your back for the next one.  Nice deck.
Also having a 7 card hand vs Control Makes it much more difficult to figure out what to counter and what to drain.  He is able to bait out drains and resolve what is important when the time comes.  Nice games during the day too.

[PipOC]

Possessed Portal cant be a hard lock in this deck

It can with two welders, but your point remains valid.

[Sean Ryan]

JuggernautGo,

I respect your inovation and congratulate you on your victory.  I don't think anyone here is "ragging" on your list or trying to take someting away from your win, (at least that wasn't my intention), I would just like to hear some of the reasoning behind why you built the deck in this way. 

For example, you explained your reasoning behind running all the draw, and E. tutor, but you stopped short of explaining much else.  Explaining your choices for deck construction is not for validity, your win did that, it is to help others understand better and hopefully spur development.  That is if you care to.

Here are some more specific comments and questions:

1) I have found that non-artifact spells that cost more than 3 are very difficult to pull off consistently in Stax.  Based on my experience I would never run Fact or Fiction b/c. of this.  How did F/F treat you during the tourny?  I understand that this logic doesn't apply to March of the Machines as it basically wins the game.  Kudos by the way, this will probally be a new standard in Suppression Field Stax.

2) Is it correct that you find a heavy draw component to be superior to the black Tutors?  Do they have to be mutually exclusive?  It seems like any build that doesn't run the maximum number of ways to find Strip or Academy is incorrect. 

3) what are your thoughts on Y. Wil in Stax?  It seems like the 4th TfK or Fact would be better off as Will. 

4) Another major difference from previous builds is the absence of a supporting lock piece, ie; Tangle Wire/Chalice/Eye of Chaos/Chains of M.  Is it your superior draw that allows you to run so few lock pieces?  This seems to be THE major difference between CronStax and your build.

7) Possesed Portal - It's ballsy as all hell...I love it.  How was it for you during the day?

8) Fastbond - I have been playing this for awhile and it's one of those last few cards I always try and fit into my Stax list. I think we will start seeing it more often, and another goood reason to run Will.

And just for the record, nobody lucksacks their way through a 140 man tourny, and at the same time, nobody gets through that many games without a good portion of luck as well.

Sean

[Disburden]

Disburden,

Your list looks almost identical to what I came up with.  However, in the current metgame I think running Stax with Welders is a must.  With Gifts and soon to be Goat making up the largest chunk of the meta, you need an answer to colossus beyond just stopping the Tinker/Oath.  Welder fills this need.  Duplicant may also take the place of Trike as an answer to both Colosssus and Welder.

I fully understand the argument about Welder handling Colossus, and this is what was worrying me most during testing. The problem with running welder is you can't use Suppression Field effectively as a  four-of in the deck with Welder in the main also. I don't like this.

The main point of my list is to abuse Suppression Field as much as possible, I think it's a house of a card and no one is even trying to break it or use it in Stax yet. Everyone is affraid of trying to re work Stax to a deck that can use this card the most effectively.

My current list runs Duplicant maindecked and white anti-Oath cards. This seems to work fine for me. Did you try anything like STP or Ray of Revelations main instead of Welder?

[PipOC]

Did you ever have problems with running both Mind's eye and Null Rod?

I'd imagine not as mind's eye has a triggered ability.

[Lunar]

Possessed Portal cant be a hard lock in this deck

It can with two welders, but your point remains valid.

since a control player (or anybody with an instant for that matter) can respond to the second welder brining portal back into play it isnt really a HARD lock...its a messed up still tough to deal with lock, but its not 100% foolproof in this deck. 

[b-tings]

So I poked my head in to see if I could figure out what this flamevault thingy I heard about in an SCG thread (my first time there in about two months) was, and, lo and behold, what's staring out at me from the top of the mana drain?

I'm not gonna lie. My heart skipped a beat.

I'm completely out of the loop now, but since I just don't know how to keep my mouth shut, I guess I'll throw my .02 into the pot and see if I can't catch a flop.

Suppression Field, as it seems most of you have surmised by now, is basically a Damping Matrix that shuts down Crucible-Strip. Remember way back when Smennen said this was the critical lock in the deck? Well, paying two mana to keep it going every turn sucks.

The Dredge spell is interesting as a way to kill Welders that just won't go away, but it begs the question: how many Welder activations does it take to wreck this deck? If your answer is one, then clearly the ability to bring it back is going to be of little or no consequence except regarding future Welders. But if you're sticking the first one, sticking Pithing Needle would accomplish the same thing. If it takes two activations to really start causing havoc, then Dredge spell wins games based on the ability to push through a counter, if you can cast it twice and they have exactly one counter. I could go on, but I don't think anyone will argue that you can sit there with your dick in your hands for three turns while a Welder stomps on your neck. So, Dredge Spell is superior provided that they have exactly 1 counter and at least one Welder, but only one at a time. Someone mentioned Fish, so obviously Fish has changed a great deal, because last time I checked the entire deck was 2/2s. Man I hate school.

The dredge spell, while sounding sexy, seems extremely narrow, as basically an answer for Goblin Welder and Shamans. If that's 90% of the metagame right now, I guess it's the good opens, team. It also probably skyrockets in value with Welders of your own. Without Welders, though, sweeping answers with abusable symmetry like EE, Damping Matrix, Pithing Needle, etc just seem better.

I would post more if I didn't have a midterm Tuesday. Also, if I had any idea what I was talking about.

Apparently there's an SCG this Saturday? That's lucky. Hopefully a bunch of metagame bombs will be dropped so everyone ends up as lost as I am. Good luck to those in attendence.

It's good to be back.

[Lunar]

did that go in the wrong thread??? Or is that a broad post to cover several threads (he mentions Darkblast which is being discussed right now in the black fish thread...suppresion field for here...flame/vault for the gifts thread...) Am I missing something?

[b-tings]

Vroman was gushing about darkblast here.

Flamevault was what I came here looking for.

[Revvik]

Possessed Portal cant be a hard lock in this deck

It can with two welders, but your point remains valid.

since a control player (or anybody with an instant for that matter) can respond to the second welder brining portal back into play it isnt really a HARD lock...its a messed up still tough to deal with lock, but its not 100% foolproof in this deck. 

How about this:
He can CHOOSE when to sacrifice the portal to get his draw step back.
He's a Stax deck, based on the principle of having more permanents than his opponent.
Fastbond / Crucible produces a hard lock, since the opponent will likely run out of resources before he runs out of life.
It's the only Stax component that can eliminate threats in an opponent's hand.
Hell, it even discards artifacts for you! 

I don't see it as an incorrect choice due to lack of synergy with the deck at all.  The only problem I see with the card is the casting cost, which Stax can circumvent with a double-Workshop opener or stalling the game with other lock components until that much mana has accumulated; and the fact that it has its moments when it isn't useful.  For instance, unlike with Cerebral Assassin, Possessed Portal almost always cannot be the first lock piece you put into play if you expect to win, since you can't just say "Discard Squee, go."

[Lunar]

your last sentance is my point exactly...why would you want a card that not only cant be a hard lock (since fastbond will eventually kill you..heh, yes I AM nitpicking) but it is going to be difficult to cast unless you are already winning and then there is no need for the card...I just dont find portal to be better than a number of other choices in Stax 90% of the time...

Yes he can choose when to get his draw step back, but that doesnt prevent the control player from responding with his own draw spell..

Portal is only good when he is already ahead on the permanent count (meaning its terrible against aggro that is going to have a decent amount of permanents...but yes I realize there is mostly control in the NE) Otherwise its dead without fastbond and crucible in play and at LEAST crucible. But the stax player is certainly not gaining permanents after portal hits play more often than not.

Welder hate is going to be everywhere...no garuntee that its artifact discard ability is going to be a bonus unless you are already winning...same with discarding it to thirst to bring in with welder....




@ B-tings

I havnt seen anybody talking too much about flamevault yet in stax...even though we probably should be (maybe people want to keep it quiet for a bit still.)

your post was just odd...very broad and was hard to put into place here in this thread since we have been focusing very closly on specifics...one at a time....

[Revvik]

your last sentance is my point exactly...why would you want a card that not only cant be a hard lock (since fastbond will eventually kill you..heh, yes I AM nitpicking) but it is going to be difficult to cast unless you are already winning and then there is no need for the card...I just dont find portal to be better than a number of other choices in Stax 90% of the time...

Yes he can choose when to get his draw step back, but that doesnt prevent the control player from responding with his own draw spell..

Portal is only good when he is already ahead on the permanent count (meaning its terrible against aggro that is going to have a decent amount of permanents...but yes I realize there is mostly control in the NE) Otherwise its dead without fastbond and crucible in play and at LEAST crucible. But the stax player is certainly not gaining permanents after portal hits play more often than not.

Welder hate is going to be everywhere...no garuntee that its artifact discard ability is going to be a bonus unless you are already winning...same with discarding it to thirst to bring in with welder....

I guess we can agree on a few things, one being that it was an excellent choice considering where he was playing.  Damn, talk like this is convincing me to buy Bazaars again.

The life from Fastbond SHOULD be irrelevant.  A better argument is "this lock relies on two singletons."  Regardless, I still think it's a solid answer, since Control Players can still cast draw spells in between Untap steps and Tangle Wire's effects, looking for outs.  Possessed Portal denies that privelege.

I'm not so sure it's terrible against aggro decks, since they often rely on their opening seven just as much as Stax decks do.  They now have a choice - discard a threat, sacrifice a threat, or sacrifice a resource.  Sacrificing resources makes it harder to play threats in hand, discarding threats concedes reliance to threats on board, and sacrificing threats concedes the game, since the aggro player just lost its source of damage.

[Moxlotus]

meaning its terrible against aggro that is going to have a decent amount of permanents

I think in the last 5 tournaments I played in I played aggro once.  Who is playing aggro in Type 1?