Uba Stax - pseudo primer

[miss_bun]

Well, I'm definitely chopping it down to 3 wishes, but I have a long proud history of using cards that everyone else makes fun of me for, so I'm not about to stop now.   

I agree that the sideboard needs some work, but having living wish for goblin welder, duplicant, and barbarian ring at least is pretty important.  Well, important to *me* anyway.  I'm slowly getting the idea that bazaar in the wishboard is silly, but its nice to be able to trade mana producing lands for bazaars if I need to via the wishes.  Bleh, I don't know... I'm still all off from new years, I need a nap or something.  I'll update the few changes I've made later. 

[Buttons]

I liked the idea of Living Wish as it certainly has great synergy with the broken lands and utility creatures...but one of the strongest selling points of vroman's RG list is that it has huge sideboard versatility.  A wishboard = no sideboard versatility.  Also, by running the wish, you make the rest of the lands less powerful.  I think I like having a more consistent mainboard.

I'd also like to add something to this.  Not only does it have huge sideboard versatility, I'd say, by far, that it has more versatility than any other deck in the format.  You can change the numbers around, throw new stuff in, heck, you can put sphere of resistances in to trade out for null rods if you really want to.

Basically, you have SEVEN free slots.

You can go down to 3 pyroblasts (as I find myself sometimes only siding in 3 pyroblasts for some crazy reason), you can go down to 3 heretics (although I always stay at 4,) although you could completely take out the tormod's crypts if graveyard hate just isn't your thing (heh), they're better in there, so I'm not counting them as versatile.  Fiery temper is completely subjectional - you can take them ALL out, and glacial chasm is pretty much an experiment that's working pretty well.

3 pyroblasts
3 heretics
2 crypts

Also, if you really wanted, not only could you add in green stuff, like exploration, or oxidize, etc, but you could have a completely transformational board.

With 8 free slots, you could even do something like 4 oath, 3 wooded foothills, darksteel colossus, lol.  Although, that's not recommended.  *grins*

[miss_bun]

Mr. Vroman is right about tutors, however; they usually end up gumming the works of an already smooth deck.  The reason I think living wish is ok in this deck is that you dont really have to add any mana beyond what you would use for fastbond and crop rotation.

[jcb193]

I'm not trying to sound profound here, and i apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere, but has Entomb ever been effective in this, or other stax decks?  Just curious if anyone has had success with this.  Or is it too conditional, as it needs other cards in play to be effective (welder, crucible). 

[miss_bun]

nah, gamble would probably be better than entomb, but even that doesnt work too well.  i havent totally given up on gamble, but it doesnt work too well right now (at least in by deck.)   

[benthetenor]

Both cards are virtually unplayable, and while Entomb is strictly better than Gamble, the deck's want for tutors is limited, especially for tutors that are only anything at all when Crucible or Welder are in play. That may be often enough to justify Entomb, but I can't see it as viable.

[vroman]

entomb was broken in dragon and unplayable in everything else. with d-tutor, v-tutor, i-seal and d-consult, you have FOUR broken tutors that are good in any situation, not just when you have graveyard manipulation on board. likewise for gamble.
furthermore, all of these conflict w chalice @ 1, except for d-tutor.

[yespuhyren]

Out of curiosity, I play in a VERY VERY U/W fish heavy environment.  Most are the OFM builds, as they are incredibly well built and seem to have a good game against Uba Stax.  What do you guys think about SB'ing 2-3 Spinal Villains?  Do you think thats a good choice for this particular metagame?

EDIT:

Just for reference

Spinal Villain    2R

AWESOME PICTURE

T: Destroy target blue creature

1/2

[Machinus]

T: Destroy target blue creature

Aren't the good creatures non blue?

[dicemanx]

T: Destroy target blue creature

Aren't the good creatures non blue?

OFM, which Yespuhyren speaks of, doesn't run any non-blue creatures apart from Factories. I imagine that this would hold true for any Fish deck that doesn't happen to be kirdape3's WW/u aggro-control deck. I'm interested in seeing whether Spinal Villain has any merit, although admittedly the card is a little too narrow.

[yespuhyren]

Although DicemanX is right, it is narrow, when it resolves, it can be a total bomb, ESPECIALLY in the OFM matchup.  Here is a breakdown of the creatures in OFM, which placed 1st, 3rd, and 4th at Ontario Vintage Championships, and 7th place at SCG, as well as 24/25th place.

4 Cloud Of Faeries
3 Meddling Mage
3 Ninja Of The Deep Hours
2 Old Man Of The Sea
2 Serendib Efreet

There you can see, it can kill all 14 creatures that they run.  So yes, although it is narrow, I do look forward to testing it regardless, and currently am using this sideboard

3x Maze
3x Heretic
3x Spinal Villain
4x REB
2x Duplicant

[Evilkin]

Stop getting ideas from Arend.  :lol:

Just so you know... he can be stolen with the Old Man, so you'd need to resolve him first.  Kinda a little too situational if you ask me, but a worthy idea none the less.
 

[Special K]

Stop getting ideas from Arend.  :lol:

Just so you know... he can be stolen with the Old Man, so you'd need to resolve him first.  Kinda a little too situational if you ask me, but a worthy idea none the less.
 

Honestly I got that I dea from Diceman I don't innovate shit I just play better decks.

@Spinal Villain OFM can use Oldman and swords to plowshare against that and it is 3 non workshop mana which can be tight especially since OFM runs Null rods

[Evilkin]

I honestly think that Uba's best bet is to simply run the Lightning Bolts in the sideboard like Sims was running.  They can kill Old Man in 1 shot or combo with Barbarian Rings to take down a bigger man.   Only problem is sometimes by the time you get threshold (and a Ring on the table at the same time) you likely could have just hard cast a Duplicant instead.  Getting out a Ring and 2 extra red sources I guess could be a little problematic when trying to take out an Efreet which is what usually ends up sealing the deal at the end.

[Special K]

There you can see, it can kill all 14 creatures that they run.  So yes, although it is narrow, I do look forward to testing it regardless, and currently am using this sideboard

3x Maze
3x Heretic
3x Spinal Villain
4x REB
2x Duplicant

I would think that Boarding Rebs and Mazes should be enough to Combat OFM Boarding anymore you will be dilluting your deck too much

[vroman]

spinal villain was secret tech against the old mU ninja fish. I played the villain in a few local tourneys when more than half my opponents were ninja fish or phid control. it would have to be a similarly warped metagame to ever justify that again.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

So guildpact gives us Shattering Spree. It's pretty hawt. But I'm not sure where it belongs. Uba Stax runs heretics postboard, which seems better than spree, but spree can be played off a single mountain and gets around chalice 1 (if other stax decks don't run welder). Can it replace gorilla shaman MD? It's weaker against moxen (shaman gives you permanent advantage when trying to ramp stax), but can kill shit like crucible, trike, stax, chalice, etc. Something like Vroman's monred list only, -1 Uba Mask, +1 Null Rod, -2 Shaman, +2 Spree. What are everyone's thoughts?

[Evenpence]

Heretic is the best thing possible in the mirror because it's virtually unkillable.  Balance and swords would be the only removal that 5c has, and Uba has Duplicant to get rid of Heretic, but if I'm not mistaken, you can still destroy the duplicant with the heretic when it comes into play, so it's controller still takes six.  (Never come up in a game against me).

Spree is R to cast, isn't it?  So it wouldn't get around chalice for 1.  Or is it 1R to cast?  I saw on a forum list here that it was R, but that seems 200% better than regular shatter, not even throwing in the replicate ability, however, you said that a single mountain would do the trick.

Gorilla Shaman is better because it's a permanent that not only can you sac to Stax, but you can block with.

As well as killing moxen like crazy and bigger stuff if you get an academy out or something.

The sideboard is a good option for it, though, to make the stax matchup even stronger if you could.

The only real advantage Spree has in the mirror over Shaman is the ability to kill crucible, or an early stax.  It can provide two to one card advantage as well as a super swing of tempo advantage to kill BOTH, but again, this is virtually only in the stax mirror.

It wouldn't replace Shaman maindeck by anyones standards, but it might be worth looking further into with the sideboard.

[Lou]

What Bob was saying, is that the replicate gets around the Chalice for one.  So Uba Stax can lay its own Chalice for one, and still cast Spree twice, with the first one being countered, and the replicated spell resolving.

[cssamerican]

Heretic is the best thing possible in the mirror because it's virtually unkillable.  Balance and swords would be the only removal that 5c has, and Uba has Duplicant to get rid of Heretic, but if I'm not mistaken, you can still destroy the duplicant with the heretic when it comes into play, so it's controller still takes six.  (Never come up in a game against me).

I have seen several people playing [card]Fiery Temper[/card] from their board in UBAStax for creature removal because it can kill Viashino Heretic, and it can get around a Chalice of the Void set at 1. So, Viashino Heretic isn't THAT invincible, although he is very good in the mirror regardless.

[yespuhyren]

The only problem with Fiery Temper is that it is virtually useless if you don't have bazaar.  Although technically you could cast it normally, its probably not your best option.

[unicoerner]

Can someone tell me what the complete nam of spree is? In my oppinion is there no way around shaman in stax atm.

[Polynomial P]

Shattering Spree is the name of the destroy artifact spell in Guildpact.

[Komatteru]

The only problem with Fiery Temper is that it is virtually useless if you don't have bazaar.  Although technically you could cast it normally, its probably not your best option.

Not really.  It's easier to use than Barbarian Ring, since getting Threshold isn't so easy without Bazaar either.  The RR requirement applies to Ring as well, since you need another source of R to activate the Ring once you have Threshold.  Paying 1RR at any time seems like its not too much more difficult than getting Threshold and paying RR.

[PucktheCat]

But of course, Ring is a perfectly servicable mana source when it isn't a Shock.  You have to expect a card with that kind of flexibility to have some disadvantages when compared to a dedicated removal spell.

Leo

[Evenpence]

IMO, Fiery Temper is worse than Lightning Bolt because not only does it require you to have a red mana source out, but a bazaar as well.  Now, when you do rip Fiery Temper with bazaar, the card is at least twenty times better than lightning bolt, but it's not consistent enough to warrant inclusion in the sideboard.  Lightning Bolt is better in your opening hand, or off a topdeck when you don't have an active bazaar.  If you're playing against stax, and you see lightning bolt in your opening hand, it actually gives you more persuasion to keep the hand, because if they lay down welder or heretic (!) you have a way to deal with them without dedicating your mana to hardcasting fiery temper or trying to madrip a bazaar.

What Bob was saying, is that the replicate gets around the Chalice for one.  So Uba Stax can lay its own Chalice for one, and still cast Spree twice, with the first one being countered, and the replicated spell resolving.

I doubt that the rules would allow that.  I don't know the exact rulings on Replicate, but it's probably just copying the spell, which means both would be countered by the chalice for 1.

[Klep]

What Bob was saying, is that the replicate gets around the Chalice for one.  So Uba Stax can lay its own Chalice for one, and still cast Spree twice, with the first one being countered, and the replicated spell resolving.

I doubt that the rules would allow that.  I don't know the exact rulings on Replicate, but it's probably just copying the spell, which means both would be countered by the chalice for 1.

Actually, the reminder text would indicate it works like Fork or Storm, by putting the copies directly on the stack, rather than like Isochron Scepter, which creates copies you then play.  If this is indeed the case, then the Replicate copies would not be countered by Chalice.  It's possible that the actual wording of Replicate will end up involving you playing the copies, but that would be both inelegant and a failure on the part of the people who create reminder text.

[pyr0ma5ta]

The reminder text for Replicate is confirmed here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/aa210

It does indeed dodge Chalice.

[Komatteru]

IMO, Fiery Temper is worse than Lightning Bolt because not only does it require you to have a red mana source out, but a bazaar as well.  Now, when you do rip Fiery Temper with bazaar, the card is at least twenty times better than lightning bolt, but it's not consistent enough to warrant inclusion in the sideboard.  Lightning Bolt is better in your opening hand, or off a topdeck when you don't have an active bazaar.  If you're playing against stax, and you see lightning bolt in your opening hand, it actually gives you more persuasion to keep the hand, because if they lay down welder or heretic (!) you have a way to deal with them without dedicating your mana to hardcasting fiery temper or trying to madrip a bazaar.

Too bad Chalice for 1 makes Lighting Bolt utterly worthless.  I can say with 100% certainty that this is the reason why Fiery Temper is being played over Lightning Bolt.

[yespuhyren]

REB has also been starting to but me A LOT! The card is excellent, yes, but I find myself dropping out a chalice for 1 so often that the REB is often useless.  Has anyone else found this problem?

EDIT:  I'm thinking of testing out the following SB

3x Defense Grid
3x Maze of Ith
3x Viashino Heretic
2x Duplicant
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Barbarian Ring

I play 2 Solemns and 4 Mountains MD, and therefore only run 3 B-Rings MD, hence the 4th in the SB for aggro matchups.