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Author Topic: [Discussion] Tangle Wire in Ubastax!  (Read 33474 times)
vroman
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« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2006, 10:49:50 am »

I have won many matches on the back of turn 2 or 3 karn. the biggest brick wall in town against any form of aggro. still, if I were to eschew nrod disynergy Id rather play granite shard, as enemy welder is a bigger concern than enemy beaters. frankly, dark confidant is a real pain in the ass too. I dont think Ive ever won a game where enemy dropped turn 1 confidant on the play. being able to take out their private howling mine immediately would be a major boon. as much as I like resistor, the deck is getting very cluttered, and I dislike 2 and 3of lock components. plus theres a gaping weakness against oath game 1, and aggro in general. for example, I lost 0-3 online yesterday against a pretty well built mono black aggro deck. turn 1 confidant -> turn 2 negator is absolutely game over for me. Im keeping the resistor+tangle list around, but am trying this today:
30 mana bazaar
17 core lock (colby: remember trisphere is an autoinclude also)
4 uba
4 tangle
3 nrod
2 dup
side
2 monkey
4 temper
4 maze
3 heretic
2 dup

alternatively the 2 shaman + 2 dup could become 4xresistor in side
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« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2006, 11:44:04 am »

How the hell did I forget about 3-ball?

Vroman, I second the Dark Confidant sentiment.  That guy is a pain in the ass for this deck.  I lost to slow combo by a name player the other week because of this guy.

Since when do you play online, Vroman?  Is that a new or recent development?

Also, opponents with heavy mox opening hands might do well against your recent build without spheres, Vroman.  We've all been a little weary of spheres lately, since Tangle Wire has come to the fray, but they work really well together.

The list that I've been toying around with spheres (which I still think is the superior list) is this:

30 Mana with Bazaars
17 Core Lock
3 Tangle Wire
3 Uba Mask
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Null Rod
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Duplicant

However, your list is probably second choice after the sphere list.  It seems like without monkey, things can just get out of hand against enemies with heavy mox opening hands, because you can't actually kill them until you get Stax out.

My sideboard for your list would be different, though:

4 Temper
3 Heretic
2 Monkey
2 Duplicant
4 Pyroblast (WHAT?)

I hate Maze of Ith.  It doesn't buy me enough time to win games ever.  I've become decreasingly dissatisfied with this card as of late (you can read my one tournament report about it) and I want to drop it for a little while.  The only thing it's good against is Oath for me, and I might as well run Jester's Caps if I want a card to do well against Oath.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 11:56:14 am by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2006, 12:23:13 pm »

yeah, I moved to an apt farther away from my shop, so I havnt been spending as much time there, and thus have started playing online via aprentice. Ive been just going to the chat room on www.magic-league.com to find opponents. is there a better method?

as for the deck, Im sold on mazith. bazaar+crucible is a perfect engine for finding utility lands. theres no more efficient way to turn off enemy attack step. you can always count on running into gobs/fish/gat or something that can just drop a few guys and race your locks.
I agree shaman should be main again, if resistor is out.
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« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2006, 12:30:57 pm »


Wire is quite a game breaker whether your winning or loosing. At one point, I was able to break through my opponents E.Flux via doing welder tricks w/ Wire and Sol Ring while paying for Crucible upkeep with my B.rings [felt like I was running Ancient Tombs]. Wires are very good anti-drain cards. Shamans didn't seem to be needed except as chump blockers against UW Fish. But I'm still reluctant to cut them. [I woulda lost that game if my Shaman hadn't blocked that Lion] On another game against Ichorid, Wire buyed me a lot of turns due to the Active Player Priority rule which resulted on the Ichorid player decking himself due to too much dredging.

Wire has been great for me, but I didn't really like cutting down on the Ubas. I might go -1 Null Rod +1 Uba Main, -1 Crypt +1 Rod SB. I don't face a lot of Gifts, so I can't relly tell how it is for the match-up. I have yet to pull of the Uba+Wire combo. Seems interesting.

Cost:    3 ManaBlack Mana
Card Type:    Creature — Horror
P/T:    3/1
Rules Text (Oracle):    Haste
At end of turn, sacrifice Ichorid.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Ichorid is in your graveyard, you may remove a black creature card in your graveyard other than Ichorid from the game. If you do, return Ichorid to play.

Cost:    3 Mana
Card Type:    Artifact
P/T:    
Rules Text (Oracle):    Fading 4 (This artifact comes into play with four fade counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a fade counter from it. If you can’t, sacrifice it.)
At the beginning of each player’s upkeep, that player taps an untapped artifact, creature, or land he or she controls for each fade counter on Tangle Wire.

Actually, unless I'm missing something that is not a favorable situation because of APNAP. Active player's abilitiys go on the stack like Ichorid, then non-active players abilities go on the stack like Tangle Wire, then you resolve first in last out, so they will tap for tangle wire, then choose to remove doods for Ichorid.  So they may have tapped everything in play when the TW ability resolved, but they get to put into play hasted, untapped ichorids
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« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2006, 12:44:27 pm »

It's true, Ichorid wins out against Tangle Wire.

Ichorid pretty much trumps Ubastax unless we can get Welder/Duplicant or Mazes as well.  Tormod's Crypt is good, too, but Ichorid will pack enormous amounts of hate for T-Crypt, and none for Maze or Duplicant.

It's good that deck got trounced at Waterbury and good players will stick to drains.  Smile

Vroman:  If Maze is there for Aggro, why not just put Karn in?  He flat out wins against the matchups you've mentioned, as well as Ichorid and other random jank.  He doesn't delay their attack step, he puts THEM on the defensive!

2 Karn sounds like a good SB option.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 12:49:39 pm by Evenpence » Logged

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« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2006, 12:59:53 pm »

yeah, I moved to an apt farther away from my shop, so I havnt been spending as much time there, and thus have started playing online via aprentice. Ive been just going to the chat room on www.magic-league.com to find opponents. is there a better method?

as for the deck, Im sold on mazith. bazaar+crucible is a perfect engine for finding utility lands. theres no more efficient way to turn off enemy attack step. you can always count on running into gobs/fish/gat or something that can just drop a few guys and race your locks.
I agree shaman should be main again, if resistor is out.


efnet on irc has #themanadrain, #themanaleak (i think this is where to find games), #o-gaming (similar to magic league, except uses MWS), #mtgjudge, and a few others.

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« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2006, 01:04:29 pm »

I am really not seeing the usefulness of Tangle wire.

Tanglewire does allow you to get smokestacked ramped without your opponent casting too many spells and it might shut off mana drain for a turn, but it is not good first turn, decreases in effectiveness every turn, and is terrible late game unless you have a ramped smokestack out and would otherwise die from an attack step that turn. Sphere of resistance is great first turn, also shuts off mana drain for a turn and is hardly symmetrical because you run more land than most opponents as well as 5 lands that produce many mana. Furthermore Sphere is a great first turn lock component.

Tanglewire does nothing against instants. Your opponenet can still thirst, gifts, rack and ruin, etc in the upkeep. This ignores tanglewire. They cannot ignore sphere in the same situations. Gifts will cost 5 end of turn, their upkeep, whenever with a sphere out.

So what matchups do tanglewire help with? Aggro. Great. It makes them tap their lions and goblins for a turn. Does it help against gifts? Slaver? Combo? It may stop mana drain for a turn while they cast draw spells in the upkeep. It might delay EOT rebuild for a turn....but sphere does the same thing. Combo can tap down to wire, drop lotus, land, mox, ritual, DT, will, ritual, blah blah blah tendirls you right out under tanglewire.

I understand that some very good players are playing Tanglewire. They are also doing pretty well with it. I still would like to know what matchups tanglewire actually improves.
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« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2006, 01:28:56 pm »

For me, Tangle Wire improves nearly everything, but I see it the most in aggro matchups (obviously) and against blue-based control.

Shutting off drains are so huge.  That gives them 4 counterspells (FoWs) for 2-3 turns early game to stop your locks.  Alot of times, I want Tangle Wire in my opening hand against Blue Based Control more than anything else.  Having both Spheres AND Tangle Wires in a deck is something drain-control does NOT want to see.

Tangle Wire is often times a Time Walk, and sometimes a Time Stretch, for 3 colorless.  It can also be sacced to Stax, and makes other things in your deck insane.  It has more synergy with the deck than Sphere does, and is overall insane.
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« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2006, 01:52:32 pm »

Turn 1 Tangle Wire on the play does nothing. Where turn 1 Sphere of Resistance is huge, it delays mana artifacts, helps prevent counterspells, and there are many ways you can actually cast it on turn 1.

Even if you do play it, you wasted a turn in the life of the Tangle Wire, and they can still play Land, Mox or Lotus and have drain mana for your turn 2.

To get 3 mana on turn 1 with:
Shop
Lotus
Land, Crypt
Land, Mox, Mox
Land, Mox, Sol Ring
Land, Mox, Mana Vault

But there are very few times where I don't have 2 mana on turn 1.
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« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2006, 02:45:47 pm »

Of course Tangle Wire does nothing on the play, but you have to realize that you don't always get to go first(sadly).

I have been testing it in my workshop deck and honestly prefer it to sphere of resistance(or whatever the hell it is called these days Confused   I mean, of course sphere is better on the play, but on the draw....ungh.  I think with 4 chalice and trini being superb opening plays tanglewire is just a better choice and gets uber with welder recursion.  Having 2 wires in play is just a bit disrupting to any deck.  Drawing a wire mid game CAN solve lots of problems, sphere will just be another permanent(barring combo decks)
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« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2006, 06:22:55 pm »

Although I am by no means an expert on this deck, I'll repeat what Roland Chang told me when I asked him why he played Tangle Wires in his 5-color list.  He had trinisphere, 3 SoRs and 4 Tangles.  He wanted cards that would be a good turn 1 on the play and on the draw.  Who cares if Tangle sucks on the play?  If you're on the play you have other things to cast like trini, crucible, uba, Null Rod, or Stack.
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« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2006, 07:20:29 pm »

I am really not seeing the usefulness of Tangle wire.

tangle lets you use more counters! w chalice, smoky and now tangle, ubastax requires more spare change to represent its game state than any deck I can think of! clearly Im trying to price the dek out of more ppl's budget!
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« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2006, 08:07:35 pm »

Damn! I only have four pennies in my wallet!

I guess I'll be playing CS for a while. I'll poke my head in here when I'm not so damn poor.
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« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2006, 11:50:30 pm »

Ok, so Team Meandeck, Team GWS, AND Team Ogre agree that Tangle Wire is good in Stax.  Sweet... that took like...forever.
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« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2006, 12:16:07 am »

team travis laplante does also
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« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2006, 02:17:21 am »

So I don't like Maze.  I used to run it for the reasons Vroman listed.  You can use bazaar to mill cards till you find the land you want.

A better card (for the sideboard) is Ensnaring Bridge.

It can be dropped with just a shop.  It can be tapped to Tanglewire and it can stop all of Oath's creatures rather than just one.

Also it can't be wastelanded or pithing needled.

Obviously it is a bit fragile as an artifact, but there will be plenty of artifacts to target already.

Against fish/gobos you can Bazaar/Uba away your entire hand and not get attacked.

EDIT:  I forgot to mention it can be welded back in if you are milling with Bazaar.
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« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2006, 02:20:55 am »

I've found Ensnaring Bridge to be absolutely horrible.  They can bounce it, or kill it, or just flat out play around it.  Plus, you just can't bazaar it into your graveyard and play it from there, unless you have Welder out.  I hate this card more than Maze.

This thread has stayed more on topic than the primary Ubastax thread.  I applaud you all for your focus.

Okay, so apparently everyone's into Tangle Wire now.  What's the next big lock to come out to revolutionize Ubastax?

Also, what's the correct build of Ubastax now?  Where are Shaman and Duplicant in all this?  How many spheres, if any?
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« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2006, 02:27:12 am »

You're the expert, you tell us!
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« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2006, 03:07:41 am »

I don't know.  This is supposed to help me as much as everyone else who's reading it.  I like hearing suggestions and new tech and developing the deck as a community.  If I was into secrets, I would have held back Tangle Wire until Richmond.
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« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2006, 03:55:07 am »

Hi there, sorry for the late post about this Tangle Wire. While I was typing the post, 4 new posts have come. Nevertheless, I just want to join.

Just want to comment a little about this Tangle Wire in addition to the established lock components of our beloved lock deck.

Recently we had a small gathering of T1 players, nothing too competitive about, just trying to win a set of dual lands. But everybody was eager to come with their own deck regardless of power, as really we were only trying to have some fun. Nevertheless to boost player's presence, those who owns more cards often lent them to those in need, to some reasonable extent. So, weird decks showed up there, as proxy was not allowed.

I came with this deck:

26 Mana Source, but -3 mountain -1 Mana Crypt + 4 Volcanic Islands
4 Bazaar

17 Core Locks
3 Uba Mask
3 Null Rod
3 Tangle Wire
3 Resistors
1 Memnarch

SB:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Quicksand
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Jester's Cap
2 Duplicant

I now the list is quite janky. What did that stupid Memnarch do in the deck, no shamans, no duplicants, etc. I now people will laugh at that decklist, but nevermind.Smile Anyway I only tried to have fun in that gathering. Because of no proxies, then I expected that more random aggro was going to come, so no high anticipation fo the popular and established power decks that would certainly come if not for the no proxy policy.

Anyway 24 people showed there, and we had a good time.

What I can say about the Tangle Wire is:

-It is quite useful to have in hand when I am on the draw, that is; going second. It will give
 temporary timewalk effect to some troublesome openings like 1st turn goblin lackey, 1st turn
 goblin vandal, etc. Sure its effect is only temporary, but with the deck that temporary time
 often is suffice to buy time until heavier lock components start to show up from the
 draw; either from natural draw phase or boost draw via bazaar; and it also buys time
 until the mana to cast those more expensive lock components become available.

-It gives quite possibly the best opening if we are on the draw against random goblin
 openings like the above, and maybe against random aggro in general, also for blue
 mana opening from the opponent, if resistor is not in the opening hand.

-The aforementioned temporary timewalk effect I think also is quite useful to buy time
 until smokestack or goblin welder can become online. Especially for the Smokestack,
 waiting for this artifact to become truly online is like having summoning sickness for
 1.5 turn, and I feel that the temporary timewalk effect given by the Tangle Wire
 during those vulnerable period, with the help of other lock components or mana
 denial; often quite enough to plug the hole when we commit Smokestack and/or
 Goblin Welder on the table.

-I feel that although there can be times where casting multiple Tangle Wires
 seem to be the only way to safe the day, its best effect generally can be felt when we
 have on the table one at a time. Its advantages get decreased if we have it on the
 table in multiples, as every turn its effect will be decreased by -2, -3, or -4, depending
 on the number of Tangle Wires we put into play while the old one still exists.

-The interaction between Tangle Wire, Smokestack, and Welder is quite useful if
 ripe opportunity shows up, and along with complement from other lock components,
 mana denial, and maybe some permanent denial, will create quite a good lock for the
 opponent.

-Tangle Wire is not a lock component that can and should stand alone, because its effect
 is not permanent, but temporary, and its effect diminished over turns. That's why it
 should be supported and followed by other lock components, or more mana denial
 effects to become truly effective. I think that Mop effect is preferred to sweep the
 board out of Moxen,token creatures, small creatures, etc., so the effect of Tangle Wire
 will be optimal throughout its lifespan on the table, but as the deck still wants to carry
 Null Rod because in general it is useful against more powered decks, then fitting such
 mop effects in the form of Powder Keg or Engineered Explosives becomes quite
 prohibitive to the deck. Generally we want the opponent's board to have less
 permanents that can be tapped to the Tangle Wire, so later Smokestack's impact can be
 harder.

-Fresh Tangle Wire on the table creates some more subtle effects for the opponent. In order to 
 alleviate the effect of our Tangle Wire, opponent is quite in a situation to up the number of
 his/her permanents on the table so as to be able to use mana and comes out from the unwanted
 situation created by the Tangle Wire. That means opponent will try to drop more lands, more
 moxes and creatures on the table, than he originally intended. This should be exploited, and
 if possible, forbidden. Therefore moxen need to be swept, small creatures that slipped by need to
 be killed, lands need to be blown by strip effects, continuously if possible; casting cost of spells need
 to be made more expensive for him, so as to squeeze the most effect from every single Tangle
 Wire, while waiting to draw and cast Smokestacks, waiting for the Smokestack to become online,
 and waiting for the Welder to just recreate the above effect albeit in more horrible condition for
 the opponent.

 Please, if anyone notice that this is not the case for the deck (Mop effect is not good),
 then help me to know why it is not good in this type of deck, aside from the fact that
 this deck still wants to carry the Null Rod. I have tried to figure it myself, but I haven't
 come yet to any clear and logical answer for that.

-As the deck also carries a wide assortment of other lock components. mana denial, to
 interact with Smokestack and Tangle Wire, we hope that the interacton between those
 effect is quite enough to buy time and lock the board. And because of the above reason
 and my general feelings that its effect is best while we are on the draw, then I suggest
 that the number of Tangle Wire in the maindeck 3 is quite enough, so as not to
 clutter opening hands and late game, and also to make room for other important lock
 components or possible utility cards that one wants to carry.
 
I think for the time being that is all that I can say about this Tangle Wire. Some have already been mentioned in the earlier post, no doubt about it. If that is the case, then
please regard this post as maybe some support to the earlier post. Sorry if there's any
mistake in my post, or if it contradicts some of others' oppinion.

About the Null Rod, I notice that in some decklist posted in this thread the number of Rods had gone down. In my humble oppinion this can be tried if we expect less powered field, the less power others used, then I think resistors' effect is going to be more pronounced than Null Rods', but lowering the number of Null Rods can open some hole to some random decks like Workshop modular, or Dark Metalworker-Staff of Domination decks.

Oh, and by the way, if one wants to create a lock deck with chip token intensive usage,
Why not try to fit some Powder Kegs to the maindeck? Sure it's going to be merriful
with lots of different colored chips as well as lots of permanents on our side of the table:)
 
Cheers,

 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 06:25:03 am by Tiki Walker » Logged

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« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2006, 05:59:06 am »

I don't know.  This is supposed to help me as much as everyone else who's reading it.  I like hearing suggestions and new tech and developing the deck as a community.  If I was into secrets, I would have held back Tangle Wire until Richmond.

Hello there!

I could not be more agree on your statement. Developing the deck with as much help as possible from the people outside from our small daily boundaries is certainly going to yield better results, and yields more fun, too, as we then think on one subject with lots of support from individuals even outside from our countries. The sense of cooperation could not have been better, then. That being said, therefore I personally find it quite unwelcome if rarely there's something like "O, my deck beat that deck because of the addition of some tech cards, or my version is better than your version because I use some tech cards, but its is very secret so very sorry cannot tell all of you dear readers about it." What knowledge improvements can be gained from some oppinion like that. I honestly think that thinking together without secrecy is the best thing to do if we really want to improve something.

Anyway, back to the discussion. To improve the deck as you requested, I think the question is not only what useful cards can be added to the deck, but also this problem must be answered before we add those cards. How many slot is available to add those cards, or in context of our lock deck; which cards from the maindeck is not so suitable to answer the field anymore, and therefore, can be substituted for the cards that we want to bring in?

Addition of Tangle Wire as experiment to the deck, take that for example. Making more space for the Tangle Wires, we knock out some gorilla shamans and duplicants. Is that really the correct move? I think really an enormous amount of playtests is in order against every popular, powered decks in the field. For those who have done this numerous playtests, maybe some oppinion would be really nice to hear. Moreover, by dropping all Duplicants and no Mazes in the mainboard, the deck looks quite want to surrender the 1st game against Oath. If that's the accepted strategy against Oath that game 1 loss is just acceptable and then try to win game 2-3 with lots of sideboard cards, then OK, maybe that's the way to go. Then what about the CS matchup with this change. No mox eater maybe means that there's going to be more weld targets for them because the moxen stay long on the table, and no neat weld-shaman trick for us anymore for big scary artifacts from the opponent.   

So, to add some new cards, we really want to identify which cards from the maindeck can be dropped out because it is not so suitable anymore to answer the field, and what number, how many can be dropped out.

That Ensnaring Bridge suggestion, take that for example. Maybe in the right field it is really good, as your hand size also can drop rapidly thanks to bazaar, etc; preventing Oath's big man or goblin's crowd from attacking. But what to take out, and how many.

How about the addition of Caltrops. But the problem with Caltrops as well as Ensnaring Bridge, they I think do nothing against passive, but dangerous creatures like Welder, Metalworker, Disciple of the Vault, or that personal howling mine-the Dark Confidant, Kataki War's Wage, for example. If field is going to change towards that type of environment, then to survive I think maybe we need more active creature control maindeck aside from only 4 threshold enabled barbarian ring.

I personally want to try some Lightning Bolt maindeck, but aside from the problem what cards to take out to make room for them, I also think that they will conflict Chalice for 1. But it's quite good I think against that Confidant, Welder, some fish creatures, or maybe Negator, if situation is favourable. 

What about Powder Keg. If the purpose of shaman on the draw is to kill mox dropped by opponent on the play, it will kill mox sequentially according to our available non workshop mana. Suppose opponent wants to jump ahead by dropping multiple moxes and some cheap spells 1st turn, then on the draw 1st turn shaman from us I think is not going to be able to eat anything much. Maybe 1-2 moxes, if we are lucky. As the deck quite often is able to give 2 mana available in our 1st turn, why not try this Keg. It sweeps all moxen dropped by the opponent in his/her turn, kill enemy's chalice of the void, any token creatures, attacking manlands, or can be set there to blow on 1 counter, killing future welders, pithing needles, disciples, xantid swarm, whatever dangerous/annoying creatures and artifacts in that casting cost. And at 2 counters, more stuff can be killed. Maybe some Goblin's creatures, the Dark Confidant, Arcborn Ravager, Fish' creatures, etc.

But again, Null Rod I think will conflict this plan.

About that personal Howling Mine. I think there exist 2 gameplan to deal with that Confidant. 1 is to just kill the confidant ASAP, or 2; opponent is allowed to draw anything from the Confidant as long as we make 100% certain that anything he draws cannot be cast/put into play, or there should be some punishment effect for keeping extra cards, like black vise of old that will surely would not allow Necrodecks to exist if permitted in multiples. No, of course I dont suggest that we should use black vise as the solution, that is only an example. Better, more suitable cards should be there. Which route to take and what cards should be used, I think can be discussed later if anyone is interested, if this Confidant becomes really a threat. I think the card choices should be also not too narrow, and preferably can deal with some situation. Maybe that Bolt.

More to the card choices for consideration.

How about a Tormod Crypt in the maindeck? A lot of top decks use Yawgmoth's Will or manipulate and use their graveyard as resource, and maybe this can be used to remove Oath's creature in response, perhaps?

How about 1-2 Pithing Needles of our own. It can stop the activation of enemy's welder, psychatog, pentavus, triskelion, mindslaver, arcborn ravager, fetchlands, some fish creatures with annoying ability, enemy's tormod crypt, to name a few.

How about some 1-2 Sensei's Divining Top to be used alone or maybe better in conjuntion with
Bazaar to manipulate draws?

I think that for the time being those aforementioned cards above can be tried. At least, if I have quite a time and lots of friends with popular, powered decks, then I want to try and see the effect of those above cards to my test games. Maybe the result is going to be good, or bad, its just either way possible, but at least some clear picture we will have after some test. Or, some oppinions from those who have tried those cards will be very nice to hear. If it is good, then why, in what numbers should be put in, what old cards to take out, etc. If it is bad, then why it is so.

Above all, it is just possible that maybe some cards from the original, old list, should be used again. It is also possible that the deck need to change its manabase and maindeck components radically, to answer today's requirements. Or, simply the deck maybe in some stage of its evolution in fact has reached its most flexible and pinnacle form, and our effort to perfect it even more just jeopardize the deck in general. What about the number of Uba Masks, Null Rods, Gorilla Shamans, drop down in recent lists. Even it used to carry Wheel of Fortune, Karn, Sundering Titan, and Solemns. Maybe the evolution from that very old list really push the deck ahead, but maybe it now has more weak matchups against some decks that before it used to be able to overcome. I really hope that our effort to perfect the deck does not by accident make the deck weaker.

I honestly really hope that the deck can still be improved, that the correct cards remain to be found, or if it is not available now then maybe in future, newer expansions the card will come.

Overall this discussion of the Tangle Wire as possible addition to the Uba lock deck really brings some refreshment, as it opens new possibilities for experiments. Because without radically changing its manabase, I dont think we can comfortably experiment with adding colors to the main Red one.   

Cheers,
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« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2006, 07:45:10 am »

Uh, tangle wire has always been good in stax, it's just now that uba stax players are starting to run it.  I guess its another thing you all can take credit for, like running null rod for the first time in a workshop deck.
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« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2006, 10:50:35 am »

I've found Ensnaring Bridge to be absolutely horrible.  They can bounce it, or kill it, or just flat out play around it.  Plus, you just can't bazaar it into your graveyard and play it from there, unless you have Welder out.  I hate this card more than Maze.


Sorry if this seemed off topic.  It is ment to be on the topic of Tanglewire.  Because Ensnaring Bridge has mild synergy with Tangle Wire and Maze has mild disynergy with it, I believe Ensnaring Bridge is worthy of greater scrutiny.


Maybe Ensnaring Bridge is just bad, but if ever a deck was designed for Ensnaring Bridge it is Tangle Wire Uba Stax.



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« Reply #83 on: March 01, 2006, 01:33:51 pm »

I don't know.  This is supposed to help me as much as everyone else who's reading it.  I like hearing suggestions and new tech and developing the deck as a community.  If I was into secrets, I would have held back Tangle Wire until Richmond.

I didn't ever suggest that you were into secrets. I was just saying that you should have as much of an idea of what an optimal list would look like, given that you've been testing the deck non-stop for at least a month. Can't you suggest an optimal list?
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« Reply #84 on: March 01, 2006, 01:45:22 pm »

?What's the next big lock to come out to revolutionize Ubastax?

Possessed Portal, I choose YOU!

Or were we back to being serious?
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« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2006, 02:34:06 pm »

I don't know. This is supposed to help me as much as everyone else who's reading it. I like hearing suggestions and new tech and developing the deck as a community. If I was into secrets, I would have held back Tangle Wire until Richmond.

I didn't ever suggest that you were into secrets. I was just saying that you should have as much of an idea of what an optimal list would look like, given that you've been testing the deck non-stop for at least a month. Can't you suggest an optimal list?

The list that I've been testing for Richmond is the following:

30 Mana + Bazaar
17 Core Lock
3 Uba Mask
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Tangle Wire
2 Null Rod
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Duplicant

I've pretty much given up on Oath game 1, except for Chalice at 2, and a singleton Duplicant.  However, how will I know that they'll be playing Oath, so why would I play Chalice at 2?  So, I've pretty much given up on Oath game 1, but I don't expect alot of Oath at Richmond anyway.  I've been switching around some things, like going to 2 Duplicant, 2 Gorilla Shaman, cutting Duplicant all together and putting in 3 Null Rods (I decided that was very bad), switching the Null Rod and Uba Mask numbers, etc etc etc.  I've decided this list is the optimal list for a diverse metagame with Tangle Wires, however, although...  I might be dropping Null Rods all together in the future, and will be posting a new thread about Karn in Ubawire right after this post.

My sideboard is this:
4 Fiery Temper (core)
3 Viashino Heretic (core)
2 Null Rod (VERY NEEDED)
2 Duplicant (Oath)
4 SLOTS OF WHATEVERNESS

I usually stick 2 slots against combo to insure an auto-win (usually pyrostatic pillar, thanks yephs!), and 2 against the desired meta.  If I'm going to a tournament where no people are, basically, I don't add in pyrostatic pillar, and go more against scrubby aggro - 2 Karn / 2 Trisk.
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« Reply #86 on: March 01, 2006, 06:26:23 pm »

I'm starting to lean hard back to putting 4 REB/PBlast in the SB against Energy Flux.  That card is almost always death when it resolves.  Its really hard to play around without having the solemns to tutor up basics as well.
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« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2006, 06:36:11 pm »

I lost to Energy Flux because I didn't have REBs in the SB at Blue Bell.  I would have easily made it to the Finals (and won) if I had pyroblasts in the SB.
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« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2006, 06:38:22 pm »

So we putting them back in?

Very Happy

EDIT:

BTW, glad Pillar is working out for you.  Right now, its in my SB as a 4 of.
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TK: Ha! Tricked you! I'm out of targets
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« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2006, 06:43:41 pm »

I love you.

I am.

EDIT:

BTW, glad Tangle Wire is working out for you.  Right now, it's in my MD as a 3 of.  Smile
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 06:47:16 pm by Evenpence » Logged

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