What is the correct answer to control slaver?

[Juggernaut GO]

Alot of people said the deck was dead, alot of people just stopped playing it.  However, now it appears to become a metagame favorite once again.  I've seen people who have never played the deck pick it up and make top 8.  I've seen people that have never made a top 8 before and pick up the deck and do well.  It's a deck that can randomly win tournaments, or go 0-2 drop.  So, what is it exactly that makes it such a threat, and what is the plan to beat it if your opponent is having a good day with it?

Is one reason for CS doing so well caused by the disappearance of fish?  I say dissapearance because at all the recent events I have been to, Null Rod aggro decks have come to an all time low.  I can see U/W fish and U/W/G threshold as being huge threats to CS's viability.  Is this strictly the reason for it's success, all of it's bad matchups have left the meta for now?

What makes CS the giant threat it is to gifts.  I am speaking from personal experience when I write, but since picking up gifts I am 0-5 against slaver in 4 tournaments.  Actually, out of 4 tournaments with 7 total losses in 4 tournaments, 5 have been from slaver.  From speaking to other gifts players their luck against CS has been slightly more impressive, but still not a winning record.  Gift's sideboards are shifting to beat CS, but how do you do it?

Is devoting a ton of cards in your board to that 1 matchup the greatest idea, boarding something along the lines of 4 REB, 4 tormod crypt, 3 pithing needle, or 3 duress?  Do all gifts players have similar bad luck against CS or am I getting randomly unlucky.  Is it fair to say that gifts beats up on the rest of the meta without having to devote a ton of hate for games 2/3?  What is the right answer

[BigMac]

I think slaver is not overbearing strong, but it can get a slaverlock early on. It is another control deck with a lock win. Even if you can slaver somebody once or twice you virtually get a time walk and to disrupt your opponent really well.

I made a deck once, when slaver was at its height, that has yet to lose a match from slaver. It was a black and white control deck having null rod and withered wretch. Complemented with seal of cleansing, vindicate and a somewhat clock with shades. Nowadays it could get pithing needles as well to get a better dragon matchup and rule of law, which i did not play, against combo. The only not to strong matchup was fish or other aggro decks. It could do well again as those decks are few and far between.

[sean1i0]

One of CS's greatest strengths comes from the fact that its game plan is super resilient.  I personally think that the best thing to do is to have cards that are good against a bunch of different decks and also hit slaver pretty hard as a side effect.  Great examples of this are Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle as they are obviously great against a myriad of decks (for example, Dragon, Gifts, Friggorid, etc.), but they're also pretty damn decent against CS.  In that manner you can hope to attain both a sideboard that's good against the field and one that has a lot of anti-slaver goodness in it.

[Anusien]

One of the main advantages CS has is that it leverages metagaming very well.  The Gifts list, whether you're running more Merchant Scrolls or Thirst for Knowledge, is pretty much set in stone.  CS allows for several metagaming slots.  Rich Shay is known to use these free slots to really beat up on the metagame, doing crazy stuff like maindecking Tormod's Crypts, or running Gorilla Shaman.  The other advantage is that CS's Welders and red mana commitment (Rack and Ruin) help give it an edge over Stax decks.

[dicemanx]

Is devoting a ton of cards in your board to that 1 matchup the greatest idea, boarding something along the lines of 4 REB, 4 tormod crypt, 3 pithing needle, or 3 duress?  Do all gifts players have similar bad luck against CS or am I getting randomly unlucky.

I was under the impression that many Gifts players count CS as a good match up, myself included. Gifts doesn't have as many potentially dead cards as CS does, which should give it an advantage game 1: Welder and the 3 robots/Slaver could be potential liabilities if TfK/FOF (or GU) for instance is cut off, or if Welder is Needled. Needle will hardly defeat CS all by its lonesome, but it can ease the pressure on Gifts when it comes to TfK being a potentially game ending spell (with Welder in play) and allow Gifts to develop its own game plan and overwhelm CS.

If I were to make a guess I'd put the CS match-up at around 55-45 for most Gifts versions game 1. your negative experiences with the deck could either be stemming from inexperience or a lack of a significant sample size (or both). If CS decides to randomly go broken on you 5 games in a row, then that could easily account for the 0-5 start that you have. Maybe if you could be more detailed as far as letting us know whats been happening in your CS matches to get better feedback.

[Smmenen]

Alot of people said the deck was dead, alot of people just stopped playing it. 

Only one person that I'm aware of sasid the deck was dead: Ben Carp.  I said it was tier 1.5 in my article quiz show cause I thought that gifts and stax were the only tier one decks based on my statistical analysis.  Cleawrly slaver is tier one.

[forests failed you]

I consider Gifts a favorable match up for Slaver.  If I could I would wish to be paired up against it every round.  I don't actually see how the deck can possibly beat Slaver post board aside from being on the play, having turn one Tinker with back up.  That is the only way I ever lose to Gifts.  Duress is such a disaster for Gifts players that it is actually dumb, it completely screws them over.  Not to mention Gifts draw engine is really fragile compared to CS's, and CS ultimately has inevitablity in that match up.  The longer the game goes the better CS gets.  Which forces Gifts to have to do something early, while CS can just make land drops and try to Drain Reb spells and use the Drain mana to cast their TFKs through and start chaining them together.  The only cards I even bother to cast proactively against Gifts half of the time (unless I am broken) are Duress, Shaman and Welder.  My main focus is always setting up to win the first counter war and then punish them afterwards.

Plus, Pithing Needle is really weak V Slaver.  I have never in my lost cared that my opponent played a Pithing Needle, every single time I just think to myself "nice dead card, idiot;  you should have saved it to pitch to TFK or Brainstormed it back into your deck to keep an extra basic Island that you might need two turns down the line."

If you want to beat CS you have to actually attack it.  If you doddle around trying to set up expansive GuG / Will Scenerios you will lose most of the time because Slaver does it just as well as Gifts does... Plus it has much more disruption, a higher threat density, and better answers to Gifts threats than Gifts has to its threats.

[PucktheCat]

FFY, your post makes no sense to me.  How is Gifts draw engine more fragile than CS's?  It is usually the same cards, but more of them.  How is Pithing Needle a dead card?  It only should be played to stop a threat that is on the board, so it trades 1-1 at worst.

I see the difference between the decks as something like this:

-3 Welder
+3 Needle

-3 Robots
+1 Recoup
+2 Kill Conditions (various options here)

-3 Utility spells (Rack and Ruin, Gorilla Shaman, etc)
+3 Gifts Ungiven

That's kind of rough because builds differ so much, but I think it is close to right.  When I see that list I think, as others have said, that the advantage of CS is in an early Welder->Robot/Slaver while Gifts has the advantage if its better draw engine has time to get going.  My testing of the matchup follows this pattern.  What makes you think otherwise?

[dicemanx]

My main focus is always setting up to win the first counter war and then punish them afterwards.

That's nice, but hard to do against a deck that runs more card drawing and disruption than you, and is looking to do the exact same thing to you. Gifts has two options - goldfish you quickly, or cut off your TfKs and the lone Gifts/FoF so that your Welders are vanilla 1/1 beaters and your big artifacts choke your hand. Essentially, Gifts is a slightly better beatdown deck AND a better control deck in the match-up, and lets not kid ourselves - the inevitability is in favor of Gifts here. Oh, and in game 2 Gifts gets to SB too. I'd put Gifts slightly ahead by about 55-45 here depending on competency of the pilots and builds.
 

[JACO]

I think the topic was 'What is the correct answer to control slaver?'

To me, the answer is playing a Darkblast main. There is relatively little Slaver can do once a Darkblast is in the mix, as it completely invalidates a large chunk of the Control Slaver strategy. I don't see why the Gifts or Intuition players aren't playing it, especially in an environment like Richmond. It also kills Dark Confidant, Gorilla Shaman, and Xantid Swarm. It's not like any decks besides those that run Workshops are playing Wasteland anymore (with the exception of Fish, which you may or may not see, depending on your meta), so there's often no drawback to fetching an Underground Sea, or a basic Swamp if you play one.

[forests failed you]

I think the topic was 'What is the correct answer to control slaver?'

To me, the answer is playing a Darkblast main. There is relatively little Slaver can do once a Darkblast is in the mix, as it completely invalidates a large chunk of the Control Slaver strategy. I don't see why the Gifts or Intuition players aren't playing it, especially in an environment like Richmond. It also kills Dark Confidant, Gorilla Shaman, and Xantid Swarm. It's not like any decks besides those that run Workshops are playing Wasteland anymore (with the exception of Fish, which you may or may not see, depending on your meta), so there's often no drawback to fetching an Underground Sea, or a basic Swamp if you play one.

Seriously, are you guys JK?  Darkblast is AWFUL!!! If at any point in the match up my opponent actually dredges Darkblast they almost always lose.  i'm more than happy to trade my crappy 1/1 idiots for their draw steps;  because ultimately I'm just trying to use the Welders to gain card advantage so I can resolve Will and replay my Welders.  I have said this many times:  Welder is actually the worst card in Slaver;  It just so happens to also clinch the game once you have taken control.  But most of the time he is extremely sucks, except when he randomly makes mana by welding moxes around in the grave. 

As far as the Needle V Welder arguement goes...  I don't understand why Slaver players don't board out some number of Welders against Gifts.  I board out at least one, if not two of my Welders against Gifts (leaving only one or two in my deck), instead opting to bring in more disruption to slow their game down (REB, DURESS).  I think that if Gifts has perhaps a 55-45 match up game one, they have to be outgunned by SLaver AT LEAST 65-35 post board.  If Slaver has the ability to slow the game down, it has inevitability and more threats that Gifts will ultimately have to deal with. 

Gifts Draw Engine?  You mean Gifts?  That is a big clunky spell that is hard to resolve against a deck sporting equal counter magic to yours.  Also, the longer the game goes the better Slaver gets.  Slaver has better things to do with gigantic amounts of Mana, and it plays things like Crucible of Worlds, Shaman, and Strip Mine to ultimate make sure that it has the upper hand in mana making capacity.

@ DicemanX :  I don't understand how Gifts can possibly be the better control deck in the match up.  If I am wrong please correct me, but here is how I think about it.  Gifts and Slaver sport the same counter magic.  Gifts brings in REBS, and Slaver also brings in REBS.  Gifts Brings in Crypts, Slaver also brings in Crypts.  Gifts brings in jank to deal with the worst cards in Slaver's Deck, ie Welder and Shaman in the form of Pithing Needle and Darkblast... Slaver Brings in Duress to win the battle to go broken and outdraw.  Also, Gifts solutions to Slaver are reactive on board answers IE Needle.  If Gifts plays out a Needle the Slaver player can just Brainstorm away unwanted Welders, trading them for good spells.  I jsut don't see it.

[Kowal]

@ DicemanX :  I don't understand how Gifts can possibly be the better control deck in the match up.  If I am wrong please correct me, but here is how I think about it.  Gifts and Slaver sport the same counter magic.  Gifts brings in REBS, and Slaver also brings in REBS.  Gifts Brings in Crypts, Slaver also brings in Crypts.  Gifts brings in jank to deal with the worst cards in Slaver's Deck, ie Welder and Shaman in the form of Pithing Needle and Darkblast... Slaver Brings in Duress to win the battle to go broken and outdraw.  Also, Gifts solutions to Slaver are reactive on board answers IE Needle.  If Gifts plays out a Needle the Slaver player can just Brainstorm away unwanted Welders, trading them for good spells.  I jsut don't see it.

Boarding in jank is a good way to suck.  I generally anticipate the brighter slaver players jettisonning the early Welder plan, and adequately remove the anti-welder junk in my maindeck for more control elements.

Gifts has an identical draw engine, identical disruption (if not slightly more, but let's not get in to that since it's sideboard specific) and a combo kill that doesn't necessitate Tinker.

Control Slaver has robots and occasionally 1/1 vanilla dorks.

That's why Gifts tends to perform better.

[nataz]

@ Kowal/FFY

to be fair, JugGo is using much more of a MD skeleton then a GG skeleton, therefore the draw engine is different (TFK v. Scroll -> Recall). Plus, from FFY's perspective, he does have access to the a combo finish w/out tinker in the form of B-Wish ->Tendrils.

I think that the differences between reflection CS, BSlaver, TFKGifts, and MD gifts are large enough that you should specify exactly what you are talking about when giving match-up %.

[dicemanx]

@ DicemanX :  I don't understand how Gifts can possibly be the better control deck in the match up.  If I am wrong please correct me, but here is how I think about it.  Gifts and Slaver sport the same counter magic.  Gifts brings in REBS, and Slaver also brings in REBS.  Gifts Brings in Crypts, Slaver also brings in Crypts.  Gifts brings in jank to deal with the worst cards in Slaver's Deck, ie Welder and Shaman in the form of Pithing Needle and Darkblast... Slaver Brings in Duress to win the battle to go broken and outdraw.  Also, Gifts solutions to Slaver are reactive on board answers IE Needle.  If Gifts plays out a Needle the Slaver player can just Brainstorm away unwanted Welders, trading them for good spells.  I jsut don't see it.

OK, I think I'm now understanding where the problem is. I think you have some version of MD Gifts in mind, while I'm thinking about Brassman style Gifts. I think MD Gifts is the inferior control deck to Brassman Gifts and CS, so I think we're on the same page there. However, comparing Brassman Gifts vs CS, Gifts has 2 extra draw spells (the two Gifts Ungiven), and I personally run 2 Duresses main to complement the 4/4 FoWs/Drains. This gives Recoup something extra to do apart from duplicating Merchant Scroll/Demonic Tutor if its otherwise not being used to fuel the Gifts for Will combo. Brassman Gifts also runs MD Needles to both support the TfK engine and cut off the Welder plan when facing decks like Stax or CS. I would never claim that Needle beats CS, but it does alter the nature of the match, in that the battles that I need to engage in shift once Welder is cut off.

I agree with your assessment that Welder is a weak card in CS vs Gifts, but only because Gifts has the power to render it useless by either using Needle or just not caring and fighting over the TfKs (or the lone Gifts/FoF) which enable Welders in the first place. On the other hand, Welder does enable some huge trumps against Gifts in the form of a single resolved spell - TfK. Nevertheless, Gifts cannot go into panic mode and overfocus on Welders via SBing strategy. Darkblast isnt the only way to make Welders weak - its far better to fight over the draw spells which enable Welder in the first place as I've stated already. Duress or REB can fight against Welder too, but even then that's not their primary focus (which is to goldfish CS out before Welder would even matter). I think we do see eye to eye on one thing here that transcends the CS vs Gifts match-up - its the fact that people don't know how to SB effectively in control mirrors, and which probably contributes in part to the reason why your CS has been so succesful vs Gifts and why my Gifts has a very good record vs CS.

I think the topic was 'What is the correct answer to control slaver?'

To me, the answer is playing a Darkblast main. There is relatively little Slaver can do once a Darkblast is in the mix, as it completely invalidates a large chunk of the Control Slaver strategy. I don't see why the Gifts or Intuition players aren't playing it, especially in an environment like Richmond. It also kills Dark Confidant, Gorilla Shaman, and Xantid Swarm. It's not like any decks besides those that run Workshops are playing Wasteland anymore (with the exception of Fish, which you may or may not see, depending on your meta), so there's often no drawback to fetching an Underground Sea, or a basic Swamp if you play one.

If I predicted a meta full of Confidants and Xantids, I would agree. Currently though, Xantids are less frequently seen in WGD, and its a 1-of in Grimlong. Confidants are rather scarce in some metas, and might only appear is SBs like in IT for example. This leaves Welder, but in that case Needle is a sufficent answer due to the flexibility and its ability to fuel TfKs. I would certainly consider 1-2 Darkblasts in the SB, although I'm not too sure if its MD worthy just yet. I'm not sure I'd SB them in vs CS either, especially if there's a chance they might be SBing out Welders, and hitting Shaman isn't necessarily significant if he already ate Moxes.

As far as the Needle V Welder arguement goes...  I don't understand why Slaver players don't board out some number of Welders against Gifts.  I board out at least one, if not two of my Welders against Gifts (leaving only one or two in my deck), instead opting to bring in more disruption to slow their game down (REB, DURESS).  I think that if Gifts has perhaps a 55-45 match up game one, they have to be outgunned by SLaver AT LEAST 65-35 post board.  If Slaver has the ability to slow the game down, it has inevitability and more threats that Gifts will ultimately have to deal with.

Post SB, I'm not sure how you're generating your numbers. At best, you've caught up to Gifts in terms of number of disruption slots and card drawing. Like I said, Gifts can SB too, and the wise Gifts players aren't going to go crazy over your Welders - they will opt for REBs and Duresses (if they don't run them main that is) just like you. Additionally, I like to SB in at least one draw spell in the mirror, particularly those that don't get hit by REB. And what exactly are the "more threats" that CS has? This is a very tenuous argument, because what exactly qualifies as a threat. Is Wedler a threat? CoW? Shaman? What about Scrying, FoF or Gifts Ungiven on Gifts side? Are those not threats? CS and Gifts both play the same number of lands, so therefore both decks run the same number of disruption + tutoring + "threats". However, CS chooses circumstantial threats that have potentially more powerful effects while Gifts opts for "threats" that have less impact but are more consistent (and no I'm not talking about FlameVault or DSC).

[TheBrassMan]

Seriously, are you guys JK?  Darkblast is AWFUL!!! If at any point in the match up my opponent actually dredges Darkblast they almost always lose.  i'm more than happy to trade my crappy 1/1 idiots for their draw steps;  because ultimately I'm just trying to use the Welders to gain card advantage so I can resolve Will and replay my Welders.

Reread that sentence, Brian... think about it for a second... you understand how bad that argument is?  You're "fine trading 1/1 idiots for their draw steps."  Welder TAKES A DRAW STEP.  Wether or not your opponent draws and plays or even runs a Darkblast, Needle, Lava Dart, or Juntu Stakes, you're "losing" a draw step when you draw (not even play) a useless Welder.  This puts the trade completely in the hands of the Gifts player.  You explained why yourself:

If Gifts plays out a Needle the Slaver player can just Brainstorm away unwanted Welders, trading them for good spells.

Did you take into account the fact that the Gifts player doesn't HAVE to play the needles?  If your Welders aren't doing anything relevant, the Gifts player is allowed to brainstorm them away.  The only difference is that a Needle nets you cards if you decide to pitch it to Thirst.  A Gifts player doesn't have to play a Needle on welder until a relevant, summoning sick Welder is on the table.  Time Walk is a restricted exception, a player can take that into account accordingly.  There's no rule that says you're allowed to play tight and the gifts players aren't. 

On that note:

I board out at least one, if not two of my Welders against Gifts (leaving only one or two in my deck), instead opting to bring in more disruption to slow their game down (REB, DURESS).  I think that if Gifts has perhaps a 55-45 match up game one, they have to be outgunned by SLaver AT LEAST 65-35 post board.  If Slaver has the ability to slow the game down, it has inevitability and more threats that Gifts will ultimately have to deal with.

Gifts brings in REBS, and Slaver also brings in REBS.  Gifts Brings in Crypts, Slaver also brings in Crypts.  Gifts brings in jank to deal with the worst cards in Slaver's Deck, ie Welder and Shaman in the form of Pithing Needle and Darkblast... Slaver Brings in Duress to win the battle to go broken and outdraw.

You sure are assuming a lot from your opponents again.  You really aren't under compulsion from an otherworldly force to bring in anti-welder cards... I know I never do, because:

I have said this many times:  Welder is actually the worst card in Slaver;  It just so happens to also clinch the game once you have taken control.  But most of the time he is extremely sucks, except when he randomly makes mana by welding moxes around in the grave.

Just like you're actually allowed to board out welders... guess what, Gifts can board out combo pieces if it's correct.  There are LOTS of matchups where I may not have a Recoup, Gifts, or Tinker post board, it depends on the board and maindeck I'm running.  ALL of your arguments seem to be relying on the fact that you're opponent is worse than you.  This may be true 90% of the time, but it's absolutely worthless as far as theory is concerned.


Does this mean I think the matchup is in Gifts favor, like every other gifts player?  Not exactly.  I just don't think the Slaver's edge has anything to do with Goblin Welder. 

In the Goblin Welder department, Gifts has every advantage.
In the Draw Engine department, Gifts is slightly (SLIGHTLY, flame war kids) better
In the "Conditionally useful 'Dead Cards'" department, Gifts generally runs less
Control Slaver runs Mindslaver.

that's it, that's the matchup right there.  The decks are so similar (I contend the same archetype, but that's neither here nor there)  Gifts has a SMALL edge almost everywhere else, but Mindslaver in CS pushes the edge back over, if nothing else, because Tinker wins the game now, and not in three turns.  I got to see a LOT of Gifts versus CS matches at Richmond, played by some of the better vintage players, probably in the world, and recurring phenomenon led me to that conclusion.  Just keep that in mind if you're planning on playing a blind needle against the deck, Welder is almost never the right call.

Just one Brass Man's opinion.

[The Atog Lord]

As usual, Brassman is dead on. The SSB-Control Slaver match plays out very much like a mirror match. In general, I take the Welder vs Needle to be something of a wash. One can cancel the other, sure. Welder can stop SSB's Colossus plan in many cases, and is good in several situations. Needle can stop Mindslaver. I'm not going to get into whether Goblin Welder or Needle is an overall better card in the matchup, but I think we can agree that they're not too far apart from one another, in any case.

Gifts has its Gifts Ungiven, and its combo win. Gifts has more tutors. Control Slaver, however, has Mindslaver. That's the key. That one little card is heart and soul of  Control Slaver's plan in the matchup. The goal of the CS player isn't so much to win as it is to get through a Slaving. After that, winning takes care of itself. Despite Gifts being more of a proactive  combo deck than CS, it is the CS player who actually has the come-out-of-nowhere win in the form of a Mindslaver activation. I just need to force through a Tinker, or a hardcast slaver. My Tinker is every bit as good as your Yawgmoth's Will.

[dicemanx]

Just keep that in mind if you're planning on playing a blind needle against the deck, Welder is almost never the right call.

I disagree if the implication is that a blind Needle should be hitting Mindslaver, but only if the CS player is also running Titans.

If you Needle Welder, then you only expose yourself to a hardcast Slaver or Tinker. Resolving either is very tough to do. If you Needle Mindslaver, you're still vulnerable to TfKs, Tinker, and Gifts, because Welder can still bring back Titan and potentially wreck you. Furthermore, Needling Welder allows you to put *your* plan of Tinker into action (or Flame Vault if you're running it). Who's to say that Gifts is supposed to be the defensively oriented control deck in the match-up? Needling a Welder can also be viewed as part of an aggressive plan to win the game quickly with tinker should the opportunity present itself.

Nevertheless, on the subject of blind Needles, the priority should go to Shamans if you know they are playing them.

[Smmenen]

I have maintained and will continue to maintain that the best and most effective solution to Control Slaver is simple:

RED ELEMENTAL BLAST

The key to beating Control Slaver, if you are a control player, is to stop Thirsts from resolving.  If you can do that, look at what happens:

1) Their Red Creatures become Mons Goblins Raiders

2) They have huge expensive artifacts in their hand:the place they want them least.  They'd rather have that shit in their librawry where they can be tinkered up or in their GY where they can be welded

3) They lose their ability to out counter you.  Slaver is full of bad artifacts and red cards.  They have fewer blue spells then Gifts.  If you can counter Thirsts, Slaver's hand willl be utterly assy.  It's ability to win hinges on its ability to resolve draw spells

Unfortauntely, Thirst is really easy to cast, so stopping it is hard.  It can only be done if you pack in REbs and focus on stopping the thirsts.

[forests failed you]

In this match up I consider Welder to be a dead or poor draw early on.  The fact that an opponent would have to trade their draw step...  a potentially good draw, to kill my stupid 1/1 is fine by me (I just want to replay him when I cast Will anyways.  Secondly, once the game reaches a certain point Welder is a bomb and a threat.  Pithing Needle and Darkblast are never a threat, they never weld in Titans or Slavers at anypoint in the match.  All they do is reactively stop a specific threat card for card.  The fact that Slaver forces opposing decks to play weak answers to deal with its one mana threats is amazing; because one's opponent's actually lose power and or brokeness in order to have the versitility to deal with my 1/1 creature.


When I look at the cards in the match up it just seems to me that Slaver has a much higher threat density than even Brassman Gifts.  Not only that, but my Slaver build also plays cards that are able to disrupt Gift's ability to create stupid huge amounts of Mana.  Titan, Strip, COW, Shaman.  That is something that hasn't even come up in this discussion.  But Gifts really doesn't like it when their opponent's play with a one mana guy that sets them way back on Mana.  Getting out mana produced is a great way to lose the control mirror.

[Meddling Mike]

I think one of the scariest cards for a slaver player to see is probably null rod. It severely compromises the mana base and forces the deck to rely almost entirely on the Tinker->Fatty plan. The fact that fish players could protect it with counters was gravy. Somehow it's less scary when Uba Stax plays a null rod as it can hurt their gameplan, mana drains are more likely to help you break out of your mana troubles because UbaStax's spells are mostly higher cc than anything in a fish deck, and if you have maindeck artifact hate, there's a chance you were in the process of looking for it anyways.

[dicemanx]

The fact that Slaver forces opposing decks to play weak answers to deal with its one mana threats is amazing; because one's opponent's actually lose power and or brokeness in order to have the versitility to deal with my 1/1 creature.

Gifts decks aren't *forced* to contend with your 1/1s. Like it was indicated already a number of times, you can weaken Welder significantly by going after the TfKs and Gifts. Therefore, cards like Duress or REB are essentially anti Welder in disguise. Maybe you beat up on locals SBing in weak cards against you, which is why you have developed this skewed view of the matchup?

When I look at the cards in the match up it just seems to me that Slaver has a much higher threat density than even Brassman Gifts.  Not only that, but my Slaver build also plays cards that are able to disrupt Gift's ability to create stupid huge amounts of Mana.  Titan, Strip, COW, Shaman.  That is something that hasn't even come up in this discussion.

As I said, your threats are more powerful but are also conditional. Titan, CoW, Welder and even Shaman can be DUDS in your hand or when they hit play. How amazing is it for you if for instance you fan open your hand and see a Titan in it? Maybe you have a TfK, but what if it fails to resolve? Aren't you essentially mulling to 6 with such a hand? Now compare it to Gifts' threats, which essentially consist of draw spells. They might not have an immediate powerful impact, but they are not conditional, and they work towards *both* a beatdown plan and a control plan. I've won many games where my opponent resolved a Drain, a FoW, a BS, but had a TfK countered, got stuck with some Big artifact in hand, and had a couple of Welders in play swinging until Gifts' overwhelming stream of tutors and draw spells crushed the CS deck. It was like playing vs CS which mulled to 4.

Now I'm not saying that Gifts will rape CS every game like this, but the edge pre and post board lies in having fewer conditional threats, threats that are unfortunately tied in to the actual elements (draw spells) which are important in its function as a control deck. TAL indicated that Gifts and CS are very closely related; I'd look at it this way. Gifts is making the statement: "if I need to resolve draw spells (TfK, Gifts/FoF) to make my threats more relevant and powerful (Welder),   then why even bother playing the conditional threats in the first place if I am winning merely by resolving my draw spells". Therefore, Gifts is merely CS with Welder and artifacts removed in favor of more tutoring/draw/disruption.

[CopperLeaf]

Titan, CoW, Welder and even Shaman can be DUDS in your hand or when they hit play.

How is an opening shamman going to be a dud?  without artifact acceleration how is gifts going to go off?  Wait till turn seven to gifts/will?

[Kowal]

I don't think you quite understand how this works, so let me explain it for you.

Gifts does not have to cast everything at the same time.  This is one of the reasons that Thirst is so good--  it gives you options all up the curve.  I win many, many games without seeing more than a mox or two, and if they're just lotus petals that's still plenty enough to win the game.  Between Thirst for Knowledge and the tutors, you don't need to generate infinite billion mana to keep up and overwhelm--  it just makes that easier.

If I should happen to keep a strong hand that doesn't feature much artifact acceleration, such as one with Mana Drain, Force of Will, and a Brainstorm or two, your shaman is effectively neutered.  Sure, it might do something later in the game, but for now it's not worth anything, and it doesn't prevent me from accomplishing my game plan.

[dicemanx]

And to pre-empt any silly debates, the contention isn't that Shaman doesn't affect or barely affects Gifts. Some games it will have a very powerful effect, mana shorting Gifts critically in the early game. The contention is that Shaman is conditional, a higher risk for a higher reward card. Note that Gifts likewise has the option of running Shaman as part of its disruption base; some Gifts builds have done this, and will likely do so in the future. Many Gifts decks forego Shamans in favor of something less conditional. Again, it's part of Gifts' philosophy that differentiates itself from CS. Is it a superior strategy? Hardly. However, its partly designed to gain an edge in Drain mirrors by cutting down the number of conditional cards.

[forests failed you]

I can definitely respect where you are comming from in your argument, and I feel that there are times when these situations come to pass;  however, from my experience I still maintain the opinion that Slaver has:

a.  a higher threat density.
b.  an equivalent draw engine.
c.  stronger plans out of the board.  Rebus, Duresses, Crypts.
d.  less dead cards;  Shaman & Welder v. Pithing Needle and Darkblast.
e.  better answers to Gift's threats than Gifts has to Slavers threats  ala, Welder for DSC, Crypt for Will, Shaman for mana;  over Gift's  Darkblast and Needle for Shaman and Welder, Crypt for Welder and Will.  (Crypts are obviously a wash).
f.  Slaver has better threats for the control mirror.  COW+Strip Mine, Sundering Titan, Mindslaver, Tendrils/Will V.  Tendrils, Colossus, Recoup.

I look at these specific things and I can't help but feel even against the better Gifts lists like Brassy's list Slaver has to have at least a slight edge, especially as the players deciding the match up become more and more skilled.  I haven't had much of a problem against Gifts in major events, and I  beat Brassy Gifts four times in the Swiss at Richmond.  It just doesn't intimidate me whatsoever, I think Slaver is a better deck. 

However, if you had suggested that Slaver had  a weak match up against a Gift's / Tog deck playing with MD Duress Adan AK Intuition I would have definitely agreed with you.  AK and Intuition are the undoing of Slaver;  It just can't keep up a majority of the time and becomes much more reliant upon getting its Welders active to win the game.  (Which goes against how I want to be playing the control mirror)

[Gabethebabe]

e.  better answers to Gift's threats than Gifts has to Slavers threats  ala, Welder for DSC, Crypt for Will, Shaman for mana;  over Gift's  Darkblast and Needle for Shaman and Welder, Crypt for Welder and Will.  (Crypts are obviously a wash).

I don´t agree with the Crypt thing.
a) If your plan is to not have them resolve Thirsts, which means they get nothing relevant in the GY, which means that your Crypts are not useful.
b) Boarding in crypts makes their Shamans better.
c) Crypts are a whole lot more effective vs the game plan of Gifts than they are vs Slaver.

So imo crypts are not a wash, they are in CS´s advantage.

[Mr. Type 4]

Control Slaver and Gifts are so very similar that if you are losing when you're playing one against the other, chances are you're being outplayed.  The Slaver vs Gifts match is an extremely intense control mirror where if you make one mistake you'll probably be on the short end of a lopsided mana drain or whatever.  When your opponent wins a counter war and draws three cards then you usually feel pretty defeated.

As far as sideboarding goes, it's not necessarily that Slaver has a better board plan, it's more like their threats are a bit more versitile and therfore harder to hate out.  Most sideboard cards against Slaver only seem "pretty good" and not "this card straight screws over Slaver".  Darkblast is much less effective when it's comming from Gifts because you're all about playing a card advantage war and when yu have to dredge this you potentially could be topdecking some absurd draw spell or the last counter you need to get the edge in a counter war.  Demars is right to say that it's a good deal when Gifts trades their draw step to dredge.  Darkblast is more effective against Slaver when you're putting the pressure on with some kind of aggro strategy and not trying to win counter wars over single card threats that will sway the entire game.

A big difference in this matchup is the use of TFK.  Gifts decks that use TFK throw artifacts away, you get excited about chucking DSC because there's just no drawback when you do that.  They throw away a pithing needle because it isn't doing all that much, whatever.  Slaver on the other hand can't wait to pitch an artifact because they want to reanimate it.  When Slaver casts TFK they draw three cards and then put one card into the graveyard, the difference being that THEY WANT IT TO BE THERE.  This is a very important distinction.

[Smmenen]

OK, I think I'm now understanding where the problem is. I think you have some version of MD Gifts in mind, while I'm thinking about Brassman style Gifts. I think MD Gifts is the inferior control deck to Brassman Gifts and CS, so I think we're on the same page there.

I see this all the time, but I don't understand this perspective at all.  I think the only reason that Kowal/Brassy gifts is preferred is because it has strong advocates who prefer it and perform and thus people see it doing well and assume it is the better build.

I continue to think that Thirst is garbage in Gifts and Merchant Scroll is amazing.  Andy has shorn up alot of weaknesses in his old Gifts lists and streamlined his build so it has gotten better and better, but I would play meandeck gifts over any other gifts list any day of the weak.  I made top 16 at Gencon and could have made top 8 if only i hadn't sacrificed the FIsh matchup by cutting too many necessary cards such as Old Man and Clasm. 

Misdirection is quite good in this environment as well. 

[Vegeta2711]

Probably becasue MD Gifts is a easier to beat since your draw engine is so limited. Let's see, we have the 1U @ sorcery speed play or the 4cc spell play. Yeahhhhhhhhhh...

[Smmenen]

I've never had troulbe massively outdrawing my opponents in control mirrors with Meandeck Gifts.  And the number of people who've beat me while I was playing MD Gifts in tournament is precisely four in six tournaments that I've played it in.  Thirst fills a gap that doesn't exist and forces you to discard a card you don't want to discard.