[Deck Discussion] Meandeck Ichorid

[GrandpaBelcher]

I notice you have Darksteel Colossus in the deck.  Is that just to keep from decking yourself with Hermit Druid or do you have a Tinker that's not listed?  It seems like the Druid would be a huge liability in that respect since there's a good chance that you would run yourself out of cards, have to draw the Colossus (since there's nothing that lets you dredge 1), and then would be forced to discard it by Therapying yourself.  Not to mention that running out your entire library makes you pretty much lose outright to Tormod's Crypt and random draw spells.

Though I guess if you took 4th you must know what you're doing.  Congratulations!

[BreathWeapon]

Replacing Putrid Imp with Hermit Druid looks like an excellent idea, as Putrid Imp is a terrible card whose only justification in the main deck is Wasteland and Pithing Needle, which Hermit Druid addresses as well as give you a turn 3 or turn 4 win. As long as you replace the Golgari GraveTrolls with Golgari Thugs, you should still have enough Black creatures to support Ichorid.

I definately don't agree with the numbers of your deck, 3 Ashen Ghoul and 4 Nether Shadow, 3 Golgari Grave Troll and 0 Stinweed Imp, 0 Unmask, no Balance, no Time Walk, no Crop Rotation (tho' I understand why not) no Strip Mine, no Chrome Mox and no Lotus Petal should be reconsidered.

Unmask is definately better than Leyline of the Void as the 9-12 disruption card, especially with 8 Black Dredge, Leyline of the Void simply doesn't concern Storm combo or Oath enough, tho' it is an incredible card against Slaver, Gifts and Dragon.

Congratulations tho'!

[XIII]

DSC is there for the Druid. You have noticed that you can therapy jourself, buying you extra turns. Tinker has a 3cc, which is to expensive in the deck, and 7 artifacts are not enought to support it.

I definately don't agree with the numbers of your deck, 3 Ashen Ghoul and 4 Nether Shadow, 3 Golgari Grave Troll and 0 Stinweed Imp, 0 Unmask, no Balance, no Time Walk, no Crop Rotation (tho' I understand why not) no Strip Mine, no Chrome Mox and no Lotus Petal should be reconsidered.

The druid makes the deck much more faster. You never have your 4 black mana to bring back all of your Ashen Ghoul, that's why I only run 3. In a druidless buld, the right number seems to be 4.
The Nether Shadows can also be explained by the presence of the druid. They often deal the last points, since you always want to kill in the turn you have filled your graveyard.
The number of Golgary Cave Troll(3) and Imp(0) are due to the lack of space in this build. I barely never have problem to dredge whane I go on BoB mode.
Balance: I don't run white :p.
Unmask Vs Leyline. I don't have a lot of black cards to remove. Also, it was mainly a metagame call. I expected some Oath/salvager, some madness, some grim storm (grim long or IT), and in that metagame, Leyline are stronger.
Time walk was often in the build, but it didn't make the cut (I am already running 61 cards).
Strip is to random without Crop, I often havec better things to tutor for.
Chrome mox is not that good in this build, but Lotus petal is, but again, the number of place is very low.

[BreathWeapon]

I just think that Stinkweed Imp is better than Golgari Grave Troll, because it is black and you can hard cast it at 3cc if it meets your fancy. I understand what your trying to get at with Nether Shadow, as 4 Ichorid, 4 Nether Shadow and an Ashen Ghoul will deal lethal damage, I just don't think it is necessary, because with Darksteel Colossus you have two turns to win, and with Cabal Therapy your opponent doesn't have a hand.

I think if I had to build a version around Hermit Druid, I would try something like;

4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghouls
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Hermit Druid
1 Darksteel Colossus
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Balance
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Crop Rotation
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Strip Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Chrome Mox

SB
4 Ray of Revelation
4 Oxidize
4 Pithing Needle
3 Null Rod

All of your black creatures are compacted into your Dredge and Threats, and you play like MD Ichorid with Bazaar of Baghdad, unless your opponent manages to Wasteland or Pithing Needle Bazaar of Baghdad, in which case you rely on Hermit Druid.

What makes this build interesting is that it isn't affected by Chalice at 1, which improves your match up against Prison while simultaneously improving your match up against Combo and Control because you now have two numbers you can set Chalice for.

[Illissius]

Could Grave-Shell Scarab be useful here? It lets you mill Colossus to dredge, which then gets shuffled back in. To do it more than once, though, you need to either cast it or discard it, and at that point you could just discard the Colossus... at any rate, it is more generally useful than multiple Colossi.

[BreathWeapon]

Could Grave-Shell Scarab be useful here? It lets you mill Colossus to dredge, which then gets shuffled back in. To do it more than once, though, you need to either cast it or discard it, and at that point you could just discard the Colossus... at any rate, it is more generally useful than multiple Colossi.

It's not worth it, if you need to you can Flashback a Cabal Therapy targetting yourself for Darksteel Colossus to attack in waves, I've had to do it vs Fish when their board was full before, and it works fine.

As long as your willing to mulligan, this version is actually really good. While Combo, Gifts and Slaver can play around Leyline, it effectively gives you some where between one to four Time Walks against them, and Hermit Druid is easily castable after a Bazaar activation finds your second mana source.

Balance is a win more card, I'm going to replace it for Bayou. At 15 sources, you should see 2 sources in your first 8, one in four cards being a source, which puts you on target for a turn 2 or turn 3 win. Resolving a Hermit Druid is effectively the same thing as resolving Balance, your opponent will lose his entire hand and his entire board in a hoard of Cabal Therapies and Ichorids, and you will be in a position to win the game the next turn. The Golgari Thug and Hermit Druid synergy is surprisingly good, if your Bazaar of Baghdad is destroyed, you can Dredge the Thrug, play him, sacrifice him to Cabal Therapy and then top deck a Hermit Druid, a life saving play.

As an interesting foot note, you'd be surprised at the number of people who don't counter game one, turn one Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal, most people are under the impression that City of Brass->Vampirc Tutor signals Long, Gifts Ungiven players with Misdirection will not be amused when you play Bazaar of Baghdad instead of Ancestral Recall.

[meadbert]

I once built a deck totally dependant on Hermit Druid.  I found Elvish Spirit Guide was useful for powering him out and he brought back Nether Shadow faster.

Also I found Mesmeric Fiend useful.  It took counters out of an opponent's hand and also pitched to Ichorid.

As I am sure many of you know there is a new card called unlucky man's paradise coming out in Time Spiral.

Basically if you are on the draw and it is in your opponening hand then it starts in play and you can tap it for any color you want once.  Other times you can only tap it for colorless.

I don't think this could be viable in the maindeck, but out of the board it could be very useful.

Options are:

A: Crop Rotation for Bazaar on your opponent's turn.  Bazaar on your opponents turn pitching a dredger.  Dredge like mad during your first turn.  I think enabling dredging 20 cards by the end of your first turn is pretty good.

B: Vamp Tutor for Bazaar during your opponent's turn or your upkeep.  Then play Bazaar on turn one.

C: Gamble for Bazaar on turn 1 and be able to play it.  (Mox Ruby allows this too)

D:  Just play Bazaar on turn 1 and leave 1 colored mana source available to Stifle a wasteland or Brainstorm and dredge like crazy.  (Mox Sapphire allows this)

E:  Annul a turn 1 Pithing Needle/Planar Void/Tormod's Crypt

Could this card make Ichorid better?

[Purple Hat]

if you're going the hermit druid route wouldn't you be better off playing the zombie dude, exhume/reanimate, and dragon breath to make the turn 2 kill possible?  I mean if your back up plan is to turn into a violently unstable combo deck why not actually give yourself access to the best kill for that deck?

[XIII]

The dragon breath/ sutured Zombie is actually very weak.
Your opponent can simply counter the Krosan Reclamation, making you lose on the spot, or simply bounce the Zombie, with the same result.
Activating the druid during your upkeep allows you to bring back some Ashen Ghoul, attack with them, and then flaskback your Therapies, just to be sure that he will do very things on his next turn.
Druid also has a nice synergie with Golgary Thug.
It is an other card (with BoB) that need to have a needle on it.

An it is not only a violently unstable win condition, but also a violently suicidant win condition from time to time

[meadbert]

In reality the normal route was to play Hermit Druid on Turn 2.  Then turn three activate him and attack for lethal damage on turn 4.  Usually there would be two-three hand rape cards played in their too.

Turn one:  Duress, Opponent-EOT ESG, Worldy Tutor for Druid
Turn two: Play Hermit Druid
Turn three: Play Mesmeric Fiend, Activate Hermit Druid, Sac Druid to flash back Cabal Therapy
Turn four: Bring out 4 Ichorids, 4 Nether Shadows and 2 Ashen Ghouls swing for lethal damage

It was not competitive so I eventually gave up on it.

[Purple Hat]

therapy should take care of them countering the krosan rec.  as meadbert says though it doesn't actually end up much faster than the deck in general.

[President Skroob]

Hermit Druid just seems dangerous to me because every targetable draw spell becomes a kill. Ancestral, Memory Jar, any draw 7, they'll all own you up for breakfast.

[Smmenen]

Here is the real question:

You are playing against Pitch Long.


A)  You have turn zero Leyline, but not turn one Chalice and you are on the play.  What do you name with THerapy?


B) Same as above, but you are on the draw.


C)  You have turn one Chalice on the play and Therapy, what do you name?


D) You have turn one Chalice on the draw and therapy, what do you name? 

[Roxas]

A)  Most likely Brainstorm, because it is their most useful card that isn't a one-of.  I can justify naming Dark or Cabal Ritual or Grim Tutor too, but generally I'd go for Brainstorm first.

B)  This is a lot tougher, since odds are they'll Brainstorm in response if they can.  I'd probably just go for Grim Tutor here, pray for a next turn, and hopefully get a more "accurate" Therapy.  Of course, if the Pitch Long player played a tutor on the first turn, I'd gamble on Yawgmoth's Will or Black Lotus.

C)  Still probably Brainstorm. 

D)  ...Brainstorm again, but naming Rituals would have extra weight here (assuming the Chalice was for zero).  Also, like in B, if they tutored for something on turn one, I'd consider taking my chances naming Will or Lotus.

[Moxlotus]

Always name Dark Ritual (except for the "turn before you win rule").  If you have chalice, you shut off their moxen, so naming Rit takes care of their other acceleration.  Naming BS is probably wrong because you are in a race.  If they play BS, Pitch Long is taking another turn to find a ritual or something.  If you named BS and they have Ritual, they might just kill you now.  Dark Rits let them win faster, so always take them.

[warwizard87]

very intersting, i actuly chose black lotus for scenario A.

B all depends on thier turn 1, did they tutor, brainstorm, land go? I think what they did turn 1 has alot on what i woudl name. but dark rit sounds like a top notch card there.

C: yeah dark ritual does sound right

D: ditto but with the what did he do turn 1 factor.

[ErkBek]

Here is the real question:

You are playing against Pitch Long.


A)  You have turn zero Leyline, but not turn one Chalice and you are on the play.  What do you name with THerapy?


B) Same as above, but you are on the draw.


C)  You have turn one Chalice on the play and Therapy, what do you name?


D) You have turn one Chalice on the draw and therapy, what do you name? 

A) Dark Rit
B) Dark Rit
C) Brainstorm
D) Dark Rit (make sure you play you therapy then chalice so if they BS in response they are less likely to hide this card)

In Situation C Brainstorm is definitely the card to name. Don't let them ditch there dead cards and also your flashbacked therapy is likely to connect then.

[BreathWeapon]

A
I would not name a Ritual, because you have a 50/50 chance you'll name the wrong Ritual, so Brainstorm looks like your best choice.
B
This question can't be answered with out more information, it's completely dependant on the opponent's first turn.
C
Either Force of Will to be certain Chalice of the Void resolves or Dark Ritual, this depends on whether or not it's game one or game two/three, assuming it's game two/three, because you know your playing against Pitch Long, I'd name Dark Ritual; it's less likely the opponent kept a hand with pitch spells as opposed to gas after he mulligans etc.
D
I would mulligan that hand, your opponent just played all of their artifact acceleration and is either going to Brainstorm or Vampiric/Mystical Tutor for something nasty, and your Cabal Therapy is likely to hit air. I wouldn't be willing to risk this hand on the off chance the opponent would play a Ritual and Grim Tutor for Yawgmoth's Will and pass.

Unless you have an Unmask and Cabal Therapy on the draw, I think it's safe to say you should mulligan for a Leyline of the Void.

Out of curiousity, is any one else finding out how much acceleration sucks in this deck? Black Lotus is mediocre, Lotus Petal is terrible and the Mox Sapphire or Mox Emerald, depending on which build you play, always pisses you off because it can't activate Ashen Ghoul. I've had problems playing the Hermit Druid build with acceleration, because in instances where I keep a hand with Chalice of the Void and Hermit Druid I've cut myself off from top decking acceleration to play Hermit Druid if I kept a hand with only one land. I think all three of those accelerants could be cut for Bayou, because you wouldn't have anti-synergy with Chalice of the Void and you could recur multiple Ashen Ghouls as opposed to one or none.

[warwizard87]

Don't cut lotus, petal or mox, they all let you use chain of vapor ( this can be so important) and recall. Yes petal can be mediocre, but some times that 1 random mana is the difference between bouncing the opposing DSC and dying next turn =/ If you cut out those 3 blue sources you are left with just 8 in the deck, and those are lands. Not to mention i have more then once hit 2-3 ghouls all at once with lotus ( thats such a fuzzy feeling) I however hate chromemox more then any other mana source, it seams to always be a waste of 2 cards for a mana source i normally don't need. Like what do you pitch to it mostly? Putrid imp?( i would rather just cast him, unless i have something nasty in hand like say vamp, seal or hard cast therapy. Sometimes i just rather pitch him to bazaar to feed a future ichorid.) layline (shouldn't this of went out turn 0 though?) Stinkweed...(umm no) ichorid/ghoul ( NO!) chain/recall(why do i need th blue mana if i just removed the blue spell......) Troll(read ichorid) unmask (woun't you rather hit a card in opponents hand?) see most hands its really bad, don't get me wrong its fine sometimes but it is card disadvantage with no immediate gain more often then not, unlike unmask which is card disadvantage with immediate gain. (some times it is card advantage like when you hit a recall or yagmoths will)


breathweapon: In D if they are playing long, if they played out all the 0 cc artifacts turn 1 they are not playing it right, unless of course they are expecting to go off that turn. I would hope they hold something back to go off with. If not they are going to have a much harder time comboing out.

[President Skroob]

Here is the real question:

You are playing against Pitch Long.


A)  You have turn zero Leyline, but not turn one Chalice and you are on the play.  What do you name with THerapy?


B) Same as above, but you are on the draw.


C)  You have turn one Chalice on the play and Therapy, what do you name?


D) You have turn one Chalice on the draw and therapy, what do you name? 

I would have to agree with the above posted in saying that in these situations, on the play (A, C) I would Therapy Brainstorm, and on the draw (B, D) I would Therapy Dark Ritual. I would never Cabal Therapy first turn for a restricted card, as your chances of pulling it are rather low and it's probably a waste of a Cabal Therapy. Brainstorm and Dark Ritual are, I think without question, 4 ofs in almost any incarnation of Tendrils because they are so helpful. If a Therapy can shut down either the drawing power or the mana production, Ichorid is in a much better position.

I feel I should note, though, that situations C and D might change if I had both a Mox and land, and would change if I had Mox, land, and Lotus Petal or another Mox, as I would  Therapy for Force to get through a Chalice for 1, which will probably get a lot more done for me than Cabal Therapying for Brainstorm or Dark Ritual alone. With two mana, though, and the choice between either the Chalice for 1 or the Therapy, it would be a tough choice.

[BreathWeapon]

Don't cut lotus, petal or mox, they all let you use chain of vapor ( this can be so important) and recall. Yes petal can be mediocre, but some times that 1 random mana is the difference between bouncing the opposing DSC and dying next turn =/ If you cut out those 3 blue sources you are left with just 8 in the deck, and those are lands. Not to mention i have more then once hit 2-3 ghouls all at once with lotus ( thats such a fuzzy feeling) I however hate chromemox more then any other mana source, it seams to always be a waste of 2 cards for a mana source i normally don't need. Like what do you pitch to it mostly? Putrid imp?( i would rather just cast him, unless i have something nasty in hand like say vamp, seal or hard cast therapy. Sometimes i just rather pitch him to bazaar to feed a future ichorid.) layline (shouldn't this of went out turn 0 though?) Stinkweed...(umm no) ichorid/ghoul ( NO!) chain/recall(why do i need th blue mana if i just removed the blue spell......) Troll(read ichorid) unmask (woun't you rather hit a card in opponents hand?) see most hands its really bad, don't get me wrong its fine sometimes but it is card disadvantage with no immediate gain more often then not, unlike unmask which is card disadvantage with immediate gain. (some times it is card advantage like when you hit a recall or yagmoths will)


breathweapon: In D if they are playing long, if they played out all the 0 cc artifacts turn 1 they are not playing it right, unless of course they are expecting to go off that turn. I would hope they hold something back to go off with. If not they are going to have a much harder time comboing out.

The marginal utility of artifact mana in this deck is so low that you can replace it with land and the difference is indistinguishable, I tried it last night and never wished I had artifact mana instead of a land, tho' I wished I had a land insteatd of an artifact mana quite often. I think every single piece of acceleration in this deck can go; Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, Mox Jet, Mox Emerald and Chrome Mox are all better off as land, and you can include any number of Wasteland

I can't stand Chain of Vapor, I'd rather use Stifle to answer Tormod's Crypt, Wasteland, Fetchland, Goblin Welder, Mindslaver, Oath of Druids, Dragon, Tendrils etc. because the only cards Chain of Vapor deals with that Stifle doesn't is Darksteel Colossus, which you can race, or Leyline of the Void, which no one else plays, or Ensnaring Bridge or Caltrops, which only gives you a single turn to deal 20 damage and it has "return target Leyline of the Void to your hand" written all over it.

In D, if the opponent knows he's playing against a deck with 4 Chalice of the Void and doesn't cast all of his Moxen, then he has traded free storm for free mana, and as a Tendrils player I would much rather have the latter.

I've also cut Ancestral Recall for Balance, after having Pitch Long and MD Gifts Misdirect my Ancestral Recall and seeing Balance, Mind Twist, Armageddon and Wrath of God the opponent I think it's the stronger card. Being able to answer Darksteel Colossus, Goblin Welder and Jotun Grunt as well as force your opponent to discard cards and destroy his lands is better than drawing 3 cards, which is something you can do with your draw step and a Bazaar of Baghdad any way. Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal for Balance is also significantly stronger than for Ancestral Recall

I'm playing the list I posted above with -1 Ancestral Recall for +1 Balance, - Black Lotus - Lotus Petal - Chrome Mox - Mox Emerald for +4 Wasteland and - Mox Jet - Bayou for +2 Tarnished Citadel. Wasteland has proven to be a savage card, the Long match up has become significantly easier to play against.

[warwizard87]

Well, you certainly made the deck cheaper......but it seams it may just lose some speed. I don't know about you but i like moxes in my opening hand...... I normally find i like my opening hand to be bazaar + acceleration+1 land+1-2 dredgers+1-2 discard/disruption/tutor+1 threat, that way i can drop the bazaar drop the mox/lotus, draw 2 dump dredges/threats and play out discard/disruption/tutor. then next turn still have a land to  play. If i lose the moxen and lotus suddenly my turn 1s look very very bad every game. normally ending in: bazaar, draw 2, dump dredgers threats, Hope i have chalice or unmask, go....yuck.And thats the best possable turn 1. I want that scenario to happen as Little as possable. Note how much more broken the turn 1 is with acceleration then with out it. DISCLAIMER: Yes i know i posted a amazing starting hand, BUT i also posted the best turn 1 possable with out acceleration to see how they compare, it is noticeably diffrant the best starting hand in the unaccelerated version is the average hand for a deck with acceleration. Why then would you cut the ability to go broken on occasion for cards that are slower and increase the possability of having a no gas hand?

Chain is so very good, it stops the threat after its on the table, so i can draw into it AFTER the threat hits. Not to mention it bounces Eon Hub. Its a main deck answer to layline (mirror anyone?)  No, bouncing a spell like bridge dose not give you just 1 turn to deal 20, normally you have already hit for 6-9 before it hits, and when you chain eot, you of course after the attack step therapy it away. With out chain you can not answer DSC, layline, or bridge main, sure stifle answers the rest just as well, but its what your not covering that beats you.

[BreathWeapon]

It's a trade off, you lose turn one Hermit Druid and Bazaar of Baghdad + Cabal Therapy for the ability to slow your opponent down with Wasteland, which I can say has definately been worth it against Long. You can, however, split between acceleration and Wasteland. I am however fairly certain that the Mox Emerald/Sapphire should just be another land, not being able to produce B for Ashen Ghoul really, really sucks.

[GUnit]

A
I would not name a Ritual, because you have a 50/50 chance you'll name the wrong Ritual, so Brainstorm looks like your best choice.

This is a logical fallacy. You are just as likely to hit dark ritual as you are to hit brainstorm. Furthermore, many lists aren't even playing 4 cabal rituals, so the 50/50 is not necessarily accurate anyway.

I would say, in a vacuum, the effect of dark ritual in that deck is much more potent than the effect of brainstorm, and thus there should probably be some bias toward that choice when playing cabal therapy.

[BreathWeapon]

A
I would not name a Ritual, because you have a 50/50 chance you'll name the wrong Ritual, so Brainstorm looks like your best choice.

This is a logical fallacy. You are just as likely to hit dark ritual as you are to hit brainstorm. Furthermore, many lists aren't even playing 4 cabal rituals, so the 50/50 is not necessarily accurate anyway.

I would say, in a vacuum, the effect of dark ritual in that deck is much more potent than the effect of brainstorm, and thus there should probably be some bias toward that choice when playing cabal therapy.

I definately didn't word that the way I meant, if you do hit Dark Ritual, there is still a chance they can still resolve a Grim Tutor, Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain with Cabal Ritual, because lists have 8 Rituals as opposed to 4 Brainstorms (Steve said Pitch Long, not Long, which I believe runs 4 Cabal Rituals as a standard). I'd rather remove a card that doesn't have another card with a redundant function, but that's just me.

[BoomChild]

If firing off a therapy blind against a long player I would probably go for the dark ritual also because that is the card that truly fuels their explosive starts.  I could see naming brainstorm if the person is hesitant to allow the therapy to resolve because that gives a sense of importance on what is in his hand.  I find that therapy is the hardest card to play properly in the deck because it is a fine two sided sword sometimes. 

[jaeppel]

hello all... today i am writing my very first post here on the mana drain, but i have been a long time reader.  after reading these forums as guest one too many times, ive decided to get myself a username and throw in my two cents.  first i would like to thow in a disclaimer and tell you i am years out of the loop in the tourney curcuit, and over one year out of playing a game. 

but this deck is something i have dreamed of for a long time... as a player in the days of ice age, i have always wondered on the power of a three one for one that never actually gets cast... and never really goes away.  sadly, like many great cards in this game it was sidelined on the "hey, this guy should be great" shelf with blokes like lions eye.  as lions eye demonstrated, it only takes one new goofy trick to make übercrap great. 

the mere fact this discussion is the longest running now... eight pages on how 4xgolgari troll can possibly be vintage material?  and the debates go on.  this is why i love this game evan though i never play... i turn my head away for a moment and the entire object has changed.

ok, enough introductory words, i would now like to share my thoughts on the ichorid deck.  i will not claim to know any kind of meta, so there is no sideboard for this list.

to start, it seems there is much debate on the value of hermit druid.  personally i think this version is  too much waiting around on summoning sickness for a deck revolving around hasted critters.  get 2 mana.... cast druid....... activate druid........ at the beginning of upkeep.............  WW Orims Chant with kicker  GG (or just a tendrils to the head somewhere in there)

as for the debate on power... some suggesting that even the last mox leave for concistency, my thought is more mana means more options... timewalk and balance are both instant (or rather sorcery) gameovers.  in a deck lacking that final je ne sais quoi, removing the two instant win sorceries seems a mistake to me.  i consider these two a two off in the 2cc win slot, and the remainder of the deck must therefore follow. 

2cc sorceries like moxes, but to cater to a 2 cc sorcery requires more than one.  therefore, i would go with the tolarian winds plan.  the winds give the biggest bang for the buck over cstudy and bstorm, potentially dumping twenty-odd cards in the yard for a ghoulish next turn.  4x winds with twalkbalance means 6 2cc sorceries, at which point supporting a  X 1  manabase begins to get appealing.  thus, the deck so far consists of:

4x tolarian winds
1x balance
1x timewalk

8x rainbow lands
5x mox
lotus, petal, chrome
(46 cards remaining)

next, the creature base.... first off, i despise this nonesense of 4x troll.... a card that does absolutely nothing but dredge? /(and count as a critter laying on a ghoul, but that barely counts).  ichy and skrachy though, are a given, as is the stinkweed imp.  the main threats heed a pile of black dudes in the yard, and not much else, so there are 12 slots in 3 auto fours.
(34 cards remaining)

4x bazaar
1x ancestral
1x crop rotation
1x vampiric tutor
these are the broken dudes that allow you to get everything and activate the dredge engine.  i refuse to use inperial seal.  sorry, im a purist and portal doesnt exist.  besides vamp is bad enough with the waiting, the thought of waiting a turn on a sorcery that will make me wait a turn is too much waiting, and i hate to wait for things except maybe trams that go somewhere i can sleep.
(27 cards remaining)

therefore, i will use the other instant speed B tutor.  why no entomb?  no really, i leave this question to the magic gurus, but why does not one single ichy deck use entomb.  its about getting things to the graveyard, right?  in the yard is as good as in the hand for half the cards in the deck, and entomb acn grab a dredger, put a deathstroke in hand next turn, pop a ray of revelation, or turn into a cabal therapy in a pinch.  thus, the following is a short entomb board.
1x entomb
1x deathstroke
1x ray of revelation
1x life from the loam
(loam goes along with the full power plan and x1 sorceries, and turns bazaar and winds into midgame draw engines)
(23 cards remaining)

disruption:
4x chalice (and setting to one is not a shot to the foot)
4x Unmask
4x cabal therapy
2x chain of vapor
i agree with every last word the experts have spoken on this section of the deck
(9 cards remaining)

stripmine
3x nether shadow
2x deep analysis
1x galgari grave troll (just to cast off the lotus)
2x undiscovered paradise

there are my thoughts on the ichy deck.  but the real question, for those of you gurus who have read so far,  is why on earth doesnt anyone use entomb?  there must be a simple reason.

tschüß

[warwizard87]

hello all... today i am writing my very first post here on the mana drain, but i have been a long time reader.  after reading these forums as guest one too many times, ive decided to get myself a username and throw in my two cents.  first i would like to thow in a disclaimer and tell you i am years out of the loop in the tourney curcuit, and over one year out of playing a game. 

but this deck is something i have dreamed of for a long time... as a player in the days of ice age, i have always wondered on the power of a three one for one that never actually gets cast... and never really goes away.  sadly, like many great cards in this game it was sidelined on the "hey, this guy should be great" shelf with blokes like lions eye.  as lions eye demonstrated, it only takes one new goofy trick to make übercrap great. 

the mere fact this discussion is the longest running now... eight pages on how 4xgolgari troll can possibly be vintage material?  and the debates go on.  this is why i love this game evan though i never play... i turn my head away for a moment and the entire object has changed.

ok, enough introductory words, i would now like to share my thoughts on the ichorid deck.  i will not claim to know any kind of meta, so there is no sideboard for this list.

to start, it seems there is much debate on the value of hermit druid.  personally i think this version is  too much waiting around on summoning sickness for a deck revolving around hasted critters.  get 2 mana.... cast druid....... activate druid........ at the beginning of upkeep.............  WW Orims Chant with kicker  GG (or just a tendrils to the head somewhere in there)

as for the debate on power... some suggesting that even the last mox leave for concistency, my thought is more mana means more options... timewalk and balance are both instant (or rather sorcery) gameovers.  in a deck lacking that final je ne sais quoi, removing the two instant win sorceries seems a mistake to me.  i consider these two a two off in the 2cc win slot, and the remainder of the deck must therefore follow. 

2cc sorceries like moxes, but to cater to a 2 cc sorcery requires more than one.  therefore, i would go with the tolarian winds plan.  the winds give the biggest bang for the buck over cstudy and bstorm, potentially dumping twenty-odd cards in the yard for a ghoulish next turn.  4x winds with twalkbalance means 6 2cc sorceries, at which point supporting a  X 1  manabase begins to get appealing.  thus, the deck so far consists of:

4x tolarian winds
1x balance
1x timewalk

8x rainbow lands
5x mox
lotus, petal, chrome
(46 cards remaining)

next, the creature base.... first off, i despise this nonesense of 4x troll.... a card that does absolutely nothing but dredge? /(and count as a critter laying on a ghoul, but that barely counts).  ichy and skrachy though, are a given, as is the stinkweed imp.  the main threats heed a pile of black dudes in the yard, and not much else, so there are 12 slots in 3 auto fours.
(34 cards remaining)

4x bazaar
1x ancestral
1x crop rotation
1x vampiric tutor
these are the broken dudes that allow you to get everything and activate the dredge engine.  i refuse to use inperial seal.  sorry, im a purist and portal doesnt exist.  besides vamp is bad enough with the waiting, the thought of waiting a turn on a sorcery that will make me wait a turn is too much waiting, and i hate to wait for things except maybe trams that go somewhere i can sleep.
(27 cards remaining)

therefore, i will use the other instant speed B tutor.  why no entomb?  no really, i leave this question to the magic gurus, but why does not one single ichy deck use entomb.  its about getting things to the graveyard, right?  in the yard is as good as in the hand for half the cards in the deck, and entomb acn grab a dredger, put a deathstroke in hand next turn, pop a ray of revelation, or turn into a cabal therapy in a pinch.  thus, the following is a short entomb board.
1x entomb
1x deathstroke
1x ray of revelation
1x life from the loam
(loam goes along with the full power plan and x1 sorceries, and turns bazaar and winds into midgame draw engines)
(23 cards remaining)

disruption:
4x chalice (and setting to one is not a shot to the foot)
4x Unmask
4x cabal therapy
2x chain of vapor
i agree with every last word the experts have spoken on this section of the deck
(9 cards remaining)

stripmine
3x nether shadow
2x deep analysis
1x galgari grave troll (just to cast off the lotus)
2x undiscovered paradise

there are my thoughts on the ichy deck.  but the real question, for those of you gurus who have read so far,  is why on earth doesnt anyone use entomb?  there must be a simple reason.

tschüß

Do you even know what the deck does? Troll IS the most powerful card in the deck. YES all it does is dredge. Dude seriously pick up a ichorid list and try ti before you comment on here...

[jaeppel]

my apologies on my last post... i realized later i had done some bad math on the number of cards...  and managed to post a seventy card deck.  thats what i get for tring to stream of conciousness out a deck rather than carefully organizing everything.  i didnt have room for all of those cards when i did do it on paper.... thought i just got lucky.

you are right on the Troll, and i was harsh on the noble dredger.  however, 6 dredge is barely any better than 5 from the stinkweed.  and of coursy stinky makes a four off.  and in my playtests (yes i have really played this deck, i was messing with the nether/ashen duo when FoW was t2 legal), i have included two of the troll.  one of the trolls slots goes to Entomb. 

Really, i dont understand why Entomb gets no slot.  it is just such a proactive card for the deck.  inagine here these two opening hand scenarios:
putrid imp, gravetroll, black mana, X, Y, Z, B    -here you can drop mana, imp, discard troll for the next draw and thus start dredging.
entomb, black mana, X,Y,Z,B,A  -here cast entomb for troll, same effect, except instead of a random dork on the table the hand contains an extra card, potentially a bazaar or some other draw spell

the entomb, as mentioned before has the double utility of snaching answers to the graveyard zone, and this deck has alot of stuff that would much rather be in the yard than on top of the library.

ive been testing with only 2 trolls, making nos 3 and 4 into entomb and life from the loam.  i seem to have about the same goldfish clock, but not drawing opening hands clogged with trolls cuts down on mulligans.  loam still dredges, albeit half as well, and keeps everyones favorite waste target on the table.  sure it wont be cast in so many games, but it seems every time it hits, its a game swinger.

but my real question is, why no entomb?

regards

[BoomChild]

Since this is my favorite deck in vintage right now, and I have it all completed except for the cards that are going to put a sizable dent in my pocket, have there been any huge innovations that make this deck more prominant or is the MD update still the "Best" version of it?

I have been tinkering with certian aspects of the deck from tutor count to draw spells and even the ammount / type of dredgers.  It seems like the deck has a lot of dead weight in the dredge cards, but it also seems like the deck would benefit from quicker drawing ability.  Has anyone reliabily tested Tolarian Winds in the deck?  It is a powerhouse in Extended and allows that version to goldfish by turn three.  I think it is time to give this deck another workdown and work it thorugh a bit more.