[Deck Discussion] Meandeck Ichorid

[BreathWeapon]

I'm in love with the Hermit Druid build I posted above, you get a plan B that is worth a damn and 4 more slots for disruption; it makes Putrid Imp and Brainstorm look stupid. Mox Emerald, or for that matter any accelerant that doesn't produce black, is god awful tho'.

[UR]

I have been tinkering with certian aspects of the deck from tutor count to draw spells and even the ammount / type of dredgers.  It seems like the deck has a lot of dead weight in the dredge cards, but it also seems like the deck would benefit from quicker drawing ability.  Has anyone reliabily tested Tolarian Winds in the deck?  It is a powerhouse in Extended and allows that version to goldfish by turn three.  I think it is time to give this deck another workdown and work it thorugh a bit more.

Read what Menendian has to say about it in his articles.

[BoomChild]

I have been tinkering with certian aspects of the deck from tutor count to draw spells and even the ammount / type of dredgers.  It seems like the deck has a lot of dead weight in the dredge cards, but it also seems like the deck would benefit from quicker drawing ability.  Has anyone reliabily tested Tolarian Winds in the deck?  It is a powerhouse in Extended and allows that version to goldfish by turn three.  I think it is time to give this deck another workdown and work it thorugh a bit more.

Read what Menendian has to say about it in his articles.

I have read what he says in his articles, but he is just one man.  It would be interesting to see what other people have to say other than just rejurgitating his opinions. 

[UR]

Okay, well... my opinion is that it is a two mana card and thus it will have te be insanely broken before you want to think about putting it in the deck. More often than not you're just not able to cast it. Besides, I don't think Ichorid really needs more draw because Bazaar is usually enough. The poblem is that you can't adequately respond to anything (hence the Unmask and Leyline maindecked).

[BoomChild]

Okay, well... my opinion is that it is a two mana card and thus it will have te be insanely broken before you want to think about putting it in the deck. More often than not you're just not able to cast it. Besides, I don't think Ichorid really needs more draw because Bazaar is usually enough. The poblem is that you can't adequately respond to anything (hence the Unmask and Leyline maindecked).

Now do you think that because it is a 2cc spell that you would have to put the moxen and lotus back in for it to work or do you think that the deck should just stick to 1cc spells because it is more stable?  Bazaar is pretty nuts for dredging I agree, but sometimes you don't have the bazaar or can't get it for some reason.  If the opponent has wasteland out you are only getting two dredges out of your bazaar and you are getting timewalked by the land destruction.  With the winds, if you have it turn 1 you have a potential of 24 cards dredged before your turn 2 on the play and 30 cards on the draw.  With bazaar you can get the 24 Cards dredged, but only if you activate it twice before your draw step on turn 2.  I am going to test with the card a bit and come back with some analysis because I personally feel that statisticaly it might be stronger than some other cards in the deck.  (Baring counter-spells of course which is a huge consideration also)

[BreathWeapon]

Hermit Druid is GG, which qualifies for the 2cc requirement. The deck has 15 mana sources, which is an average of 2 mana sources in 8 cards, and it has Bazaar of Baghdad to dig for mana if needed. Bazaar of Baghdad is not enough, once the opponent boards in Pithing Needle (which is in most boards just for Goblins Welder) you need a definate plan B, becuase you will likely lose if you have to go top decking for Chain of Vapor. Besides, Hermit Druid gives you the room to play with Leyline of the Void, which is amazing vs combo and control.

[UR]

Well if you are going to run 2cc spells than you'll need more manas. Like BW said, 15 should be adequate. My list is a more 'classic' one (more like Menendian's old list but adapted a little and a different sideboard) so I have the following manabase:

Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Black Lotus
Gemstone Mine x4
City of Brass x4
Underground Sea
Strip Mine (although I'm thinking about cutting this one).

Not enough to play 2cc spells really. Time Walk is still in there because I don't have the heart to cut it... but maybe I should.

Edit; I just realized that I forgot both Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal... still, 2cc is a lot.

[President Skroob]

I believe the main advantage to Bazaar is that you don't have to fight the counter wall for it. Yes, Wasteland is out there and can give you a lousy day, but counters are an awful lot more prevalent and if you can avoid them life is just better. One of the prime powers of Ichorid is that it can win without playing a spell. Trading that power in is making the deck weaker.

[BoomChild]

I believe the main advantage to Bazaar is that you don't have to fight the counter wall for it. Yes, Wasteland is out there and can give you a lousy day, but counters are an awful lot more prevalent and if you can avoid them life is just better. One of the prime powers of Ichorid is that it can win without playing a spell. Trading that power in is making the deck weaker.

After testing the deck a little bit online last night I found the same thing.  Bazaar is slightly better because you have to needle or stifle the ability.  The only problem I'm having now is getting enough black creatures in the yard to bring back ichorid's early.  What do you guys think is the right call if you have 3 Ichorids in the Yard and only 1 other black creature to return.  Do you canabalize an ichorid for 3 extra damage or do you just return 1 this turn and try to dredge more off the grave trolls next upkeep? 

[GrandpaBelcher]

I have a few questions for the posters in this forum:

My only experience with Ichorid is second-hand--I've played against it a lot, especially early in its development.  I've assumed that this deck is not one that can be picked up dry by anyone and just won with; it takes a great deal of skill and practice to pilot.  Is this true?  Does the practice have a reward?  Do people have success (i.e. top 8, top 4) at tournaments with some regularity after they've practiced with Ichorid for a while?

Reading through this forum indicates that there are many directions Ichorid can take.  You can play for more control with Brainstorms, Chains of Vapor, and discard, or you can trade a few turns of beats for one combo-like finish off Hermit Druid, or you can try something in between.  Is this just personal preference?  For people who have played both versions, would you prefer one in one metagame over another?  Has the metagame gotten too hostile for Ichorid with Crypts and Leylines, or are you still confident taking it to a tournament?

It's been interesting to follow the development of this deck.

[warwizard87]

I personally like the aggro/disruption build. 4 layline, 4 unmask, 4 therapy, 2 needle, 2 chain, 4 chalice main. Adding 2cc spells in this deck is pretty bad. Normally if things go well you will never get  2 mana on the table. I am usually content with a city of brass and thats about it. Though 2 is optimal, who don't like hard casting therapy AND then flashing it back, after you bring that ghoul back or Pithing Needling the wasteland you seen in hand. 2 is fun but not necessary.

  As for the Entomb question. No it is not good in here, it is pretty much half of what you want for to much mana. The other 1cc spells in the deck, tutors, needle, imp, therapy, recall, they are all performing optimized and specific duties. Entomb is suboptimal, you have 4 cards that do part of its job for free, the tutors are more effective, and dredge gets stuff just as well. Though if magics minimum deck requirement were 61 it would probably be a no brainier.

  Play 4 trolls, they dredge and keep doing it, even after you removed the stinkweeds to feed ichorid.

Crypt is not as much of a problem as it was, i run main deck needles. With some practice you should be able to play around it.
Layline is a bit of a problem, ray of revelation was the standard to kill planer void but layline stops the flashback form ever happening ( IE it never actually gets in yard) i have been running 4 wax/wanes side vs planer void/mirror/oath and they have been working fine so far. Wane also has the added benefit if killing a dimir cut purse suited with a sword of f/i theeh.

[Arkanis]

hello everyone. i am a new ichorid player and i have two little rule questions.

- When I am in my upkeep step, can i use the bazaar to dredge some more cards into my graveyard BEFORE i take my ichorids into the game?

- Assuming I have only one dredge-card in my graveyard and I use bazaar. Can I use the second draw to dredge a card that has just been put into graveyard with the first dredge-action?

sorry for dumb questions and thank you for answering 

[warwizard87]

YES, you can stack the ichorids triggers and dredge.

YES, its one of the more powerfull plays, say you bazzar and you have a imp and  a troll, you use the troll on the first draw hoping to get a 2nd troll, of you do great if not you at least have the imp =]

Only dumb questions are ones not asked =D

[Darkenslight]

Has anyone seen this card?

Nether traitor 

Creature - Spirit

Haste, shadow

Whenever a creature is put into your GY from play, you may pay .  If you do, Return Nether Traitor to play.

1/1

Does anyone think this might be useful?

[UR]

No, because it is small and you have to keep one black open if you are to use it's ability because  you only get one chance. I'm already having trouble cutting cards from my deck without making some serious compromise and I just don't see what I would cut for this card (heck, I'd run Nether Shadow over this one actually).

[BoomChild]

No one has answered my question about canabalizing an Ichorid early game to get an extra 3 damage in.  Say it's turn 2 upkeep.  You have 3 Ichorid's in your yard and a grave troll with 1 Putrid Imp and other non-removable cards.  You dredge with a bazaar and get no other black creatures, but you now have 2 Grave-Trolls.  Do you remove just the Putrid Imp or do you take out an Ichorid also so you can hit for 6 instead of 3.  This came up in testing many times and I would like to know what other people think of the situation.

[49 Cents]

No one has answered my question about canabalizing an Ichorid early game to get an extra 3 damage in.  Say it's turn 2 upkeep.  You have 3 Ichorid's in your yard and a grave troll with 1 Putrid Imp and other non-removable cards.  You dredge with a bazaar and get no other black creatures, but you now have 2 Grave-Trolls.  Do you remove just the Putrid Imp or do you take out an Ichorid also so you can hit for 6 instead of 3.  This came up in testing many times and I would like to know what other people think of the situation.

I'd say no, because this way you attack for less the next couple turns, and kill your opponent slower than you would have if you simply didn't bring Ichorid back.

[Storm]

No one has answered my question about canabalizing an Ichorid early game to get an extra 3 damage in.  Say it's turn 2 upkeep.  You have 3 Ichorid's in your yard and a grave troll with 1 Putrid Imp and other non-removable cards.  You dredge with a bazaar and get no other black creatures, but you now have 2 Grave-Trolls.  Do you remove just the Putrid Imp or do you take out an Ichorid also so you can hit for 6 instead of 3.  This came up in testing many times and I would like to know what other people think of the situation.

It is a mathmatical question, but I think you should err on the side of doing more damage now.   Life is a resource, not just a number you keep track of to determine who wins.   If you can eat up that resource from your opponent, that means less they can do - less Vampiric Tutor, less fetchland use, etc. 

[nataz]

I think it depends on how likely it is that you will get a mana source in play/do you have any cabal therp in the gy?

look at it this way. You don't eat the third ichorid, and you swing for 3 (17), then another 9 (8) next turn (assuming that you get your required creatures in the gy). Total 12 dmg over two turns.  Or you swing for 6 (14) pass, and swing for 6 (8) again. Again, 12 dmg, over two turns.

In situation #1, you’ve give the opponent an extra 3 life at the start of his second/third turn, while in situation #2 he starts his next turn at 14. However, if you expand it out to the third turn you get a kill off your three ichorids, whereas you do not get a kill off your two ichorids, making you potentially a turn slower.

Considering the information you gave us (i.e., 2 grave trolls + bazaar, no ashen mentioned) I suspect you will go into turbo dredge mode and hope that you can kill in the next two turns with Ichorids for beats and Cabal therp for backup, rather then dig for a land and hope to draw/play an ashen or a spell.

Over the next two turns you should be able to see at minimum 36 cards (bazaar for 6 +6 upkeep, another 6 on the draw for two turns) you should get the required 6 black critters in the gy and hopefully play out at least 2-3 cabal therp. Not half bad.

I think pretty much any deck in general would trade -3 life on their second turn for an extra turn in the game. It seems like to me the extra turn could be much more critical to wining then the extra life.

The problem arises when you figure in something like MD tormods crypt, which can be tutored for and played in the same turn. Against something like control slaver, more dmg quicker = better because at any point in time they can go tutor -> crypt and pwn you.

Something else to consider is how much you need to dredge with each line of play. Depending on what deck you are playing, it may *not* be better to turbo dredge after the 6 black critters and therp. Maybe you *need* to get a chalice down (say against pitchlong) and depending on how many cards you have in hand its just better to draw off your draw step and bazaar.

It's really hard to answer this question in general because so much of what you do depends on what you are playing. Counter intuitively; more dmg on your turn two leaves open more lines of play, but at the expense of a slower end game. Less immediate dmg ends the game more quickly, but at the expense of possible disruption. 

[BoomChild]

Thank you very much for those answers.  I find that being slightly new to vintage that I don't realize that life is a resource here as much as it is in the other formats.  The question was based upon the idea that you don't really know what your opponent is playing.  I find myself in turbodredge mode a lot, which may or may not be a good thing most of the time.

[President Skroob]

I had a top 4 placing in a northern Ohio tourney with a more controlly version of Ichorid. It relates here, I think, so I figured I would provide a link to that report thread where I posted it.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30416.0

Feel free to post any comments or questions in either thread.

[meadbert]

There is a new card which could improve Ichorid.

Dread Returns BB2
Sorcery
Return target Creature card from your graveyard to play.
Flashback-Sacrifice three creatures.

This could be used to return Symbiotic Wurm.
Wurm could sacrifice to Therapy putting 7 1/1 tokens into play.
From there several more Therapies and Dread Returns could be played.
Gigapede is a great target for Dread Return since it gets a +1/+1 counter for each creature in your graveyard.
Other options in Manaless Ichorid are Sutured Ghoul with Dragon's Breath to go for the win that turn.
Because of the lower creature count Sutured Ghoul might  not work in Meandeck Ichorid.  With enough Symbiotic Wurms it might work.
Unfortunately Dragon's Breath cannot be put on Grave-Troll.

Still the following turn 3 plays are powerful.

A:
Swing with 3 creatures.
Sac creatures to Dread Returns to get Symbiotic Wurm
Sac Wurm to Therapy getting 7 tokens
Sac a Token to Therapy.
Sac 3 Tokens to Dread Returns getting a 14/14 Grave Troll
Sac 3 Tokens to Dread Returns getting a 13/13 Grave Troll

B:
Bring out three creatures
Sac creatures to Dread Returns to get Symbiotic Wurm
Sac Wurm to Therapy getting 7 tokens
Sac Token to Therapy
Sac Token to Therapy
Sac 3 Tokens for Dread Returns getting Sutured Ghoul (25-25).
Sutured Ghoul comes into play with Dragon's Breath and has haste.
Swing for 25 with Hasty Trampling Sutured Ghoul

Duplicant could be used to get rid of DSC.
Sundering Titan could mess up a mana base.

Could Dread Returns improve Meandeck Ichorid?

[UR]

Isn't is strictly 'win more'? You've already got three creatures (read: Ichorids/Ashen Ghouls)) in play so the game shouldn't last much longer than two turns. Symbiotic Wurm (or any creature for that matter) doesn't change the clock and does little to disrupt your opponent so I don't think it would add much. Besides, what are you suggesting will be cut from the maindeck to make room?

[etakspeelstae]

I'll second what UR said.

Also, the disruption comes from after the Wurm is in play in the situation; in other words, your playing a 4cc card by losing 3 creatures, and if it gets Drain'ed, you've probably lost ;/

But besides that, UR hit the nail on the head.

[meadbert]

Dredge Returns is basically a win sooner card, although it also offers some other utility.

Drain is a huge problem.  The main advantage is in racing a Darksteel Colosus.  Even if all you do is bring out a 14/14 Grave-Troll that is enough.

Meandeck Ichorid is already very tight but could a spot for two Dread Returns be found as a dredgeable solution to DSC.

Would it be worth it?

[warwizard87]

4 CC cards have no place in so mana lite deck, stick with chain of vapor to deal with DSC.

[ErkBek]

4 CC cards have no place in so mana lite deck, stick with chain of vapor to deal with DSC.

When flashbacked this spell is free, not 4 mana so please don't evaluate it on that measure.

I've never played the deck, but how good is maindeck chain of vapor? Wouldn't stifle be just as good, if not better?

[warwizard87]

Vapor deals with annoying things like Laylines, DSC, AKROMA!.(we hates her.), as well as bounces Dragon with its CIP ability on the stack. I know Stifle deals with the Oath activation as well as Dragons ability, but it does not hit Layline, DSC, Planer Void. Chain deals with most of the annoying things Stifle does in this deck but also hits a dfew other things as well.

OOPS!  Should read a card before commenting. Missed the FB part. But i still seams overcosted for the effect. I mean if i just dredged back 3 Ichorids, i am probly winning any way, i would rather have the spot for a hate card, not to mention the cards i would have to have in the deck to brake it. Ichorid is fragile and tight enough as it is, not sure if you can hit 3-4 slots for a combo that works only when you are already winning the race? Troll will be to small, you ate all its food to bring back the Ichorids to sac to this.

BTW Eric it is worth playing a few games of though, just to see how us poorer T1 players who don't want to play fish live XD

[Arkanis]

Maybe http://magiccards.info/ts/en/143/ would be a great sideboard card. What do you think about it?

[meadbert]

I have tested Stifle and I like it in the main deck.  Back when I was testing no one ran maindeck Leylines, but Slaver was running Maindeck Crypt.  Stifle can stop a crypt activation.  Stifle also RFGs all of Dragon's Permanents and it stops Tendrils Combo.  It is not a solution to a DSC or an Angel.  That is why I prefered Chain.  Stifling a Fetch land is a HUGE temp boost for Ichorid.

Dredge returns does not require running any extra cards to "break" it.  I think a 14/14 Golgari Grave-Troll is broken enough.

Saying it is a win more card is mostly true, but consider racing a DSC.  Turn 2 DSC is still very scary for Ichorid.  The race can be won, but it can just as easily be lost.

Steve suggested that DSC and Tendril's are the two best win conditions in Vintage.  Currently Ichorid is more vulnerable to DSC.  This could address that vulnerability.

Another of Ichorid's Vulnerabilities is Orb of Dreams.  Dredge Returns can work around this by giving you a large beater that stays in play.

Ancient Grudge could be a good sideboard card.  In my "meta" there is a good deal of Ensnaring Bridge so I would run it.  Since as near as I can tell Bridge is rare in the SCG meta it might not be a good choice.  The next most annoying artifacts are Orb of Dreams, Pithing Needle and Crypt.  Grudge could be used to force an early Crypt activation but that is only marginally good.  Also Grudge could get rid of Pithing Needle, but only if it is in the yard first.  Imagine your opponening hand is Bazaar, Grudge and nothing else that discards.  If your opponent opens with Needle then you get to wait till you have two mana sources to hard cast Grudge and then play Bazaar a turn after that?  That is not so good.  Getting rid of Orb of dreams would be great.