[Deck Discussion] Meandeck Ichorid

[BreathWeapon]

Well, there are four cards I can't disclose out of respect to Steve, but I think it's an obvious inclusion if you think about the design philosophy of the deck.

Edited: Final MD and SB

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Ichorid
4 Ashen Ghoul

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Putrid Imp

4 Careful Study
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

1 Balance

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Chrome Mox

SB

4 Null Rod
4 Pithing Needle
4 Ray of Revelation
3 Darkblast

I replace Crop Rotation with Balance and Brainstorm with Gamble when I'm playing for fun, people aren't inclined to believe that Balance, Time Walk, Crop Rotation, Strip Mine and Mox Sapphire can be cut, but after playing with the deck long enough I can assure you they can be. Crop Rotation is really risky, because if you keep a hand with it as your only outlet and you get FoWed you are in some serious shit. Strip Mine doesn't disrupt Combo if you are on the play, so I cut it for a card that does. Balance and Time Walk are top heavy, especially after I cut 2 mana sources, so I rarely play with either of them. Mox Sapphire is a bad Lotus Petal, when it was originally included in the deck it still had Time Walk and 4 Careful Study, now there really isn't anything to justify its inclusion (especially if your crazy like me and use Gamble).

[cssamerican]

Well, there are four cards I can't disclose out of respect to Steve, but I think it's an obvious inclusion if you think about the design philosophy of the deck.

[card]Contract from Below[/card]   :lol:

[BreathWeapon]

Well, there are four cards I can't disclose out of respect to Steve, but I think it's an obvious inclusion if you think about the design philosophy of the deck.

[card]Contract from Below[/card]   :lol:

Oh man, I wish.

[nataz]

yay for rootmaze + leyline + chalice against combo and CS

Root is essentially a weaker null rod (1 mana/turn rule) when the game only goes a few turns. Leyline is an obvious inclusion against combo/slaver, ditto on chalice (if you still run them).

Now that brassy gifts basically no longer exists, ichorid gained some much needed breathing room to focus on other problem match-ups.

I still miss chain in my MD though, it was a nice catch-all, although admittedly less usefull now that people set chalice @ 1 all the time against me.

[RThomas]

Well, there are four cards I can't disclose out of respect to Steve, but I think it's an obvious inclusion if you think about the design philosophy of the deck.

Is there a particular reason that you can't say there are four Ashen Ghouls in your list?

[nataz]

well, if you wanna get picky he is missing 12 cards.

4 mystery, 4 ichorid, 4 ashen assumed. Unless he isnt running critters anymore. Maybe 4x tooth and nail + 1 platz, 1 abunus, 1 DSC, and 1 mindslaver?

[yespuhyren]

4 tooth, 1 platz, 1 abunas, 1 DSC, and 1 mindslaver makes no sense.  Probably

1 tooth
1 BFM (Left side)
1 BFM (Right side)
9 forests (to cast it with entwire, and the mana base can't be wasted)

[BreathWeapon]

well, if you wanna get picky he is missing 12 cards.

4 mystery, 4 ichorid, 4 ashen assumed. Unless he isnt running critters anymore. Maybe 4x tooth and nail + 1 platz, 1 abunus, 1 DSC, and 1 mindslaver?

List fixed,

Tooth and Nail for 2xBFM is the PWNzor

Edited for content:

I want to dredge up an old argument about Brainstorm for a moment,

I'm starting to wonder whether or not Brainstorm is better than Careful Study in this deck. Neither card is sufficient to keep a hand on, but if I had to keep a hand on one or the other ,I think I would prefer to have Careful Study. Consider the play of City of Brass, Brainstorm/Careful Study. What is this play hoping to accomplish? Finding a Bazaar of Baghdad. So, Brainstorm digs one card deeper, thus it is the better choice, right? I don't think it is. Lets say that Bazaar of Baghdad is the third card, you can't play it until the start of your next turn. So, if I were to cast Careful Study in that position, the third card is irrelevant, because I'll draw Bazaar of Baghdad the same turn I could play it. What's more so, I could be in a better position to take advantage of Bazaar of Baghdad off a Careful Study, because I could have discarded a Dredge card, and I don't have a card on the top of my deck  that I didn't want. If Brainstorm misses Bazaar of Baghdad, then I have to top deck two dead cards before I can get back into the game, while Careful Study immediately puts me back into top deck mode.

Careful Study also lets you keep some hands that Brainstorm wouldn't, for example a hand with Careful Study and 2 Dredge can be considered if you have a Leyline or Chalice of the Void in hand to go with it, or you want to play the numbers that you'll find another Dredge in 10-12 discarded cards. Also, a hand with 2 Careful Studies is definately keepable, especially if you have a Dredge in hand, while two Brainstorms is an easy mulligan.

About the only thing that Brainstorm is better at, IMO, is picking up a Chalice of the Void. But that is only relevant if you are on the play. So, is Careful Study better than Brainstorm?

Edit:

For the people who don't know what the 4 super secret tech cards are, try cutting Brainstorm for Careful Study, Crop Rotation for Balance and add 4 Gamble. It is a ridiculously fun variation.

[Neonico]

Game 7:
Hand 1: CoB, Putrid Imp, Chalice, Putrid Imp, Ichorid, CoB, Troll
Hand 2: Stinky, Lotus Petal, Bazaar, Thug, Imperial Seal, Therapy
Turn 1: Petal, Imperial Seal
(Note this one)

I know your post was all about tutors effects but what decided you to mulligan this hand ? It seems really strong enough for me not to mull it. You have ichorid, 6 cards dredger and discard outlet with another one as back up.

The second hand, the card you tutor is really dependant of what you play against. I think that troll/Ashen goul/Cabal Therapy are all good choices depending how you need to pressure your opponent, if you need to disrupt him (Chalice can be another great choice) or if your game is just the race. Note also that a second bazaar can be the good choice if you suspect strip effects.

It really depends what you play against.

Try this SB,

4 Ray of Revelation
4 Oxidize
4 Pithing Needle
3 Darkblast

It deals with every problem I can think of.

This side cant deal with an early tinker.
Rootmaze is really what makes you win the race against combo, but its also incredibly strong against control, preventing an early goldfish from gift for example.

[BreathWeapon]

Believe me, Root Maze isn't worth SBing, the MD deals with Combo so well that SBing additional hate (even Null Rod) is over kill.

As far as dealing with an early Tinker, that's what I have Chalice for. As long as I don't see it turn 1 on the draw, it isn't a problem. The best possible answer would be Chain, and Chain is bad.

Speaking of SB cards, is there an Instant or Sorcery 1cc spell that destroys Enchantments? I love Rey of Revelation, but I'm worried that the 2 cc is going to lose me more games against Stax, Oath and Fish than I care for. I had a serious problem against Oath, because they would Chalice 1 and drop Tormod's Crypt, and the Crypt would keep me off discarding Ray of Revelation to deal with their resolved Oath. It sucked.

[TurbulentDirge]

On the SCG forums, we are having an interesting argument. What is the Ichorid board plan against any build of Oath? There seems to be a relatively strong arsenal against Ichorid in the Oath maindeck and board, so what would you say our plan is?
-DL

[mistervader]

Believe me, Root Maze isn't worth SBing, the MD deals with Combo so well that SBing additional hate (even Null Rod) is over kill.

As far as dealing with an early Tinker, that's what I have Chalice for. As long as I don't see it turn 1 on the draw, it isn't a problem. The best possible answer would be Chain, and Chain is bad.

Speaking of SB cards, is there an Instant or Sorcery 1cc spell that destroys Enchantments? I love Rey of Revelation, but I'm worried that the 2 cc is going to lose me more games against Stax, Oath and Fish than I care for. I had a serious problem against Oath, because they would Chalice 1 and drop Tormod's Crypt, and the Crypt would keep me off discarding Ray of Revelation to deal with their resolved Oath. It sucked.

Try Simplify. Each player sacs an Enchantment.

What would you replace the Mazes with, though?

I'm still puzzling over the deck, and I'm running it on Sunday... urk.

[TurbulentDirge]

Turn 1 Mox, Orchard, Oath is not the biggest problem. Turn 1 Chalice for 1 is. What do we do against that?

What does your board look like now mistervader?
-DL

[cssamerican]

Speaking of SB cards, is there an Instant or Sorcery 1cc spell that destroys Enchantments? I love Rey of Revelation, but I'm worried that the 2 cc is going to lose me more games against Stax, Oath and Fish than I care for. I had a serious problem against Oath, because they would Chalice 1 and drop Tormod's Crypt, and the Crypt would keep me off discarding Ray of Revelation to deal with their resolved Oath. It sucked.

I don't understand your logic here...Chalice for 1 is going to kill your removal without the need for Tormo'd Crypt, but if your still interested [card]Erase[/card] is much better than Simplify.

[mistervader]

Turn 1 Mox, Orchard, Oath is not the biggest problem. Turn 1 Chalice for 1 is. What do we do against that?

What does your board look like now mistervader?
-DL

Quite honestly, I still have no clue. LAst tourney out was non-proxy so I didn't have Chalices, but my board looked like this:

4 Root Maze (NEVER USED)
4 Pithing Needle
4 Null Rod
3 Chain Of Vapor

But now, if I'm going to follow suit and run the Leylines as well, there's no reason for me to run Chains, since the Leylines would get bounced, so...

4 Pithing Needle
4 Null Rod
and 7 blank spots...

Why?

1. OATH WILL NOT BE PLAYED. Proxy tournaments in the Philippines means two things: Gifts and Stax. Those are the decks you'd mainly expect, and since Oath can be run in budget, don't expect any decks that can be run budget, EXCEPT for Fish.

2. COMBO WILL BE UNDERPLAYED. I highly doubt anyone can run combo competently here, because other than me and a couple of guys who won't be playing, nobody is serious about it in my playing area.

With these in mind, what do you think should go in those slots? I like Ichorid because I can almost walk over Stax as long as I don't get my discard outlets wrecked. Drain decks can beat me, but at least, they have no huge Drains they can gain from me.

[Smmenen]

The best tool is speed.

Oath takes generally one turn to find oath, another turn to play it and then two turns to win.

Use a little bit of disruption and Ichorid will win.  If you think Ichorid has trouble with oath, it doesn't.

Use Therapy to slow the oath activation down a single turn and that is usually enough to win the game.

If you don't like that, use chain of vapor.  Make them play chalice 1 as well.  That will just slow them down more. 

It's a race that Ichorid wins.

[AngryPheldagrif]

If you think Ichorid has trouble with oath, it doesn't.

No, YOU don't have trouble with Oath. The mortals beneath us appear to find the matchup troubling however.

Use Therapy to slow the oath activation down a single turn and that is usually enough to win the game.

If you don't like that, use chain of vapor.  Make them play chalice 1 as well.  That will just slow them down more.

Chalice for 1 prevents all of your disruption. This may not impede your ability to Bazaar into a faster win, but it does not address what happens if they answer that, or you simply do not draw it.

It's a race that Ichorid wins with Bazaar.

I fixed that since not everyone will get the implied statement.

[nataz]

I had a serious problem against Oath, because they would Chalice 1 and drop Tormod's Crypt, and the Crypt would keep me off discarding Ray of Revelation to deal with their resolved Oath. It sucked.

you have a chance to cast ray after you discard it don't you?

you discards ray as part of an effect, then its your priority.
cast the ray, in response they can crypt, but the removal of ray is part of the cost, its already gone.

not that I run ray anyway.

[Smmenen]

Chalice for 1 prevents all of your disruption. This may not impede your ability to Bazaar into a faster win, but it does not address what happens if they answer that, or you simply do not draw it.

Actually, i might as well just share right now.

I'm running 4 Unmask maindeck in Ichorid.  It has great synregy with Stinkweed Imp midgame and Cabal Therapy.

[mistervader]

Chalice for 1 prevents all of your disruption. This may not impede your ability to Bazaar into a faster win, but it does not address what happens if they answer that, or you simply do not draw it.

Actually, i might as well just share right now.

I'm running 4 Unmask maindeck in Ichorid.  It has great synregy with Stinkweed Imp midgame and Cabal Therapy.

Holy... the exact same card I was thinking of. Has perfect synergy with topdecked Leylines as well.

Seriously though, the only reason I thought of the card was I was disassembling Doomsday while I was looking for the cards in the Doomsday deck that Meandredge needs from the Doomsday Decklist.

Of course, my only worry with Unmask is walking into a Drain, but yeah, it's a pretty good card, particularly when you want to pitch a useless Leyline of the Void, which was why we considered running Unmask in Legacy's Iggy Pop...

[nataz]

HA, I was totally wrong.

cool idea though, especially if you run Leyline. Gogo stealing tec from legacy combo-decks.

*edit

I am so uncool, way to be second.
btw, does this mean meandeckers won't be running pile.dredge at SCG?

[TurbulentDirge]

I for one have been fighting on the Ichorid side the entire time against the Oathers.

I believe that Smmenen is correct, but what about the following oath scenarios; what is the most appropriate way for Ichorid to race these?
(Let us assume for the sake of making it more complicated the Oath player goes first).

Scenario 1
Oath Turn 1: Mox, Orchard, Oath.
Ich Turn 1: Therapy-->FoW (They FoW), Bounce. (?)
OR
Ich Turn 1: Bazaar, go crazy with dredge and try to race.


Scenario 2
Oath Turn 1: Chalice for 1
Ich Turn 1: Bazaar, go to town (?)


Scenario 3
Oath Turn 1: Needle-->Bazaar
Ich Turn 1: Land, Imp, Mox, discard dredger, Brainstorm/Recall/Study
OR
Ich Turn 1: Land, Brainstorm/Recall/Study. Wait until turn 2 to dredge


Scenario 4
Oath Turn 1: Lotus/multiple Mox, Chalice for 1, Needle-->Bazaar
Ich Turn 1: (?help?)


Scenario 5
Oath Turn 1: any of the above + Tormod's Crypt
Ich Turn 1: (?help?)


4 and 5 are my personal questions, and while they are unlikely, in some form or another they are possible.

Other than these, I cannot really think of another threatening scenario.

Much gratitude for the help with this deck.
-DL

[Disburden]

But what is removed for the four Unmask? The list is really tight. I'm rather more scared of the deck now that I know it's going to have Unmask. I was planning on taking Control Slaver with me for this tournament.

[mistervader]

But what is removed for the four Unmask? The list is really tight. I'm rather more scared of the deck now that I know it's going to have Unmask. I was planning on taking Control Slaver with me for this tournament.

Well, Balance, Time Walk, among other things.

I noticed that among the casualties in the deck were also the bounce, Darkblast, and the Underground Seas. All in all, I think that this reconfiguration is pretty good, though the lack of mana kinda makes me hesitant to view this deck as superior to previous list.

Would you recommend Unmask in my Stax/Drain meta, though? Or should I stick to the previous lists?

[Disburden]

But what is removed for the four Unmask? The list is really tight. I'm rather more scared of the deck now that I know it's going to have Unmask. I was planning on taking Control Slaver with me for this tournament.

Well, Balance, Time Walk, among other things.

I noticed that among the casualties in the deck were also the bounce, Darkblast, and the Underground Seas. All in all, I
think that this reconfiguration is pretty good, though the lack of mana kinda makes me hesitant to view this deck as superior to previous list.

Would you recommend Unmask in my Stax/Drain meta, though? Or should I stick to the previous lists?

I am pretty such Unmask was put in for help against the hardest match- Control Slaver. So if you see slaver a lot I would use Unmasks. Also I thought that Time Walk was taken out of Steve's list already, which is why I asked the Unmask slot question.

[mistervader]

I am pretty such Unmask was put in for help against the hardest match- Control Slaver. So if you see slaver a lot I would use Unmasks. Also I thought that Time Walk was taken out of Steve's list already, which is why I asked the Unmask slot question.

I expect Gifts and Fish as control decks, and maybe that combo deck that relies on Draw 4's. Stax, Ubastax, and stuff like that. Decks we don't see during non-proxy, so I highly doubt CS would show up.

Is Gifts going to get as hurt as CS would by Unmask?

[BreathWeapon]

With out Unmask, this deck would be unplayable.

The cards I cut were Balance, Time Walk, Strip Mine and Mox Sapphire, because I feel these are the weakest cards in the deck. Balance and Time Walk are difficult to cast, Strip Mine does nothing against Combo on the play, is rarely used as a mana source and Mox Sapphire is the worst mana accelerant.

You also have to stop and consider the changes this deck has made to its MD, yes, I've cut 3 mana sources, but I've also removed two 2 cc cards, and 3 cc cards. The number of blue cards went from 8 to 5 and you've added 4 cards with out a casting cost.

I can't speak for what Steve has cut, because he told me that cutting Crop Rotation and Stripe Mine is "incorrect," but I couldn't come up with a better card to cut other than a Brainstorm or a Timid Imp, and I prefer not to cut sets.

I know I hate Crop Rotation more than any other card in this entire deck, every time I keep a hand with Crop Rotation it gets FoWed. I've gotten to the point where I wont keep a hand with Crop Rotation on the draw just because Brainstorm or Merchant Scroll for FoW is GG (in fact, I don't recommend any one keep a hand with any of the 1cc tutors on the draw, just because the odds of FoW or Chalice/Sphere are so high.
Even tho' the CC of Balance is huge in this deck, I think it may be the better card in the long run, because Vampiric or Imperial for Balance is such a devestating play.

@Oath

You have to race it, you have no other option after Chalice 1 hits the board.

As far as Ray of Revelation is concerned, I'm really bad about the rules for this stuff, do I have a chance to activate Ray of Revelation before Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Tomod's Crypt, Phyrexian Furance or Withered Wretch removes it?

Also, if my opponent taps an Orchard and gives me a token on his upkeep, can I Darkblast the token and kill it before Oath triggers?

@Fish

Is any one but me having a problem with Fish (UW/b with Chalice, Confidant, Duress and SB Planar Void). It's an evil, rotten llittle hate deck where Chalice 1, Planar Void or Plow and Darkblast give me a head ache.

@Oxidize

At first I thought this card would be awesome in theory, but it has been terrible in testing . Oxidize just can't cut it vs Stax, they either weld the artifact back in or pre-empt it with Chalice@1. I think I'm going to go back to Null Rod and accept the only way to deal with Bridge is to race it.

[Disburden]

I really don't know if I agree with cutting strip mine either. The card is a real time walk in this deck, and I also think this deck abuses Strip mine more than any other deck in the format besides Stax. The card is a crippler. I'd probably cut this:

1 balance
1 Thug
1 imperial seal
1 careful study

Maybe I'm way off too, but I really think anything is better than cutting Strip mine. It's the best land besides Bazaar.

[LessThanRight]

The best tool is speed.

Oath takes generally one turn to find oath, another turn to play it and then two turns to win.

Use a little bit of disruption and Ichorid will win.  If you think Ichorid has trouble with oath, it doesn't.

Use Therapy to slow the oath activation down a single turn and that is usually enough to win the game.

If you don't like that, use chain of vapor.  Make them play chalice 1 as well.  That will just slow them down more. 

It's a race that Ichorid wins.

It sounds like what you are trying to say is, "the best tool is tempo".  I feel that Oath is just as fast if not faster than Ichorid.

How about a little match up analysis.  I see another 30 pager coming.  

[AngryPheldagrif]

As far as Ray of Revelation is concerned, I'm really bad about the rules for this stuff, do I have a chance to activate Ray of Revelation before Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Tomod's Crypt, Phyrexian Furance or Withered Wretch removes it?

Leyline: no
The rest: yes

Also, if my opponent taps an Orchard and gives me a token on his upkeep, can I Darkblast the token and kill it before Oath triggers?

They can't give you a token before they Oath, so it's irrelevant. And you would always get priority back to Darkblast it anyways.