Pitch Long

[Mr. Nightmare]

Cunning Wish is particularly bad, since it doesn't even do what the Wish should do in the first place, which is to ge a win condition if your access to Tendrils has been lost.  Wishing for bounce doesn't solve that.  Death Wish has potential, but it comes with a hefty price, particularly in conjunction with Grim Tutor.

[Phele]

Wow, pretty harsh criticism for just giving another option 

Just a few words:

How do you wish for the win?  Brain Freeze?  That's really bad, since Freeze blows against one of the decks running Extracts--Oath.

What shall I answer on this? Obiously I don't use Brain Freeze against Oath. After Boarding my second wincondtion of choice would be Colossus. But this specific version of Oath is not the only deck running card removal. In our meta where everybody and his mother is playing combo there are a lot of well prepared fishy builds around runnig Rootwater Thief, Hide/Seek whatever beside Extracts. Even some Gifts Builds us Extract and Cranial Extraction as a Wish target.

Yeah I don't really get that whole wish thing. Seems like playing wish is just not having confidence in your ability to play around hate. Not to mention this deck scoops to the least amount of hands in the metagame as they usually need serious hate peice+counter back-up then be able to follow it up with another peice. The fact that the deck both has Cabal Rits and all that to play around Chalice and Trinisphere, bounce, Desire+Bargain for Leyline/tormod's, and Force of Will for anything else they don't like makes it seem pretty resiliant to me.

Thank you for your answer, as it was the only one actually thinking about what I mentioned. It's true that the new Litz Long has all the weapons to play around hate. Maybe I still think to TPSish as I want to have another solution/wincondition main. But as people in the thread started to discuss about adding a second Tendrils or a Hurkyl I just wanted to show how this discussion could be solved with one card with some added utiltity bonus. Maybe it's just me - and thats totally fine - but I would play Cunning Wish over the second Tendrils all day long as winning with Wish on Freeze is same easy with this this explosive deck just that Cunning Wish is not totally dead when your are not in your winning turn. And you don't have to bastardize your sideboard for it. I came to the idea by realizing that my board already runs all the wish targets beside Skeletal (and Coffin Purge for what I played Tormods Crypt instead) so adding a wish main doesnt harm too much.

To be completely honestly, even in Pitch Long, with a 2-color manabase, I'd probably rather run Burning Wish than Cunning Wish. By that time, you have almost definitely seen at least one of either Ruby, Petal, Lotus, or LED. I know that I tutor for Lotus about 75% of games. So, this card would serve no function other than protecting Tendrils.

But on to my post about B-Wish. I never said I would run the card. It's bad in this deck. I was just using it to compare to C-Wish to show how bad I think that card is in this deck.

Ok, I got it that you think Cunning Wish is bad option. Don't run it or even try it out, I totally agree that the deck is fine without it. But I found it sad that you don't have to add something more valuable. Your Burning Wish example in a two color mana base is just plain nonsense. I don't see any reason how that should document how bad Cunning Wish in this deck is as your example is in my eyes so much worse.

So lets just forget about it, Death Wish is another interesting switch to discuss (while being somewhat different). Peace!

Edit:

Cunning Wish is particularly bad, since it doesn't even do what the Wish should do in the first place, which is to ge a win condition if your access to Tendrils has been lost.  Wishing for bounce doesn't solve that.  Death Wish has potential, but it comes with a hefty price, particularly in conjunction with Grim Tutor.

Nice, is Brain Freeze so bad that your never heard about it?

Believe me, when you are on the winning turn you get the neccessary storm count and so it is a 3UU wincondition instead of 3BBBB what the Death Wish route would mean (but what shouldn't be a problem) or 3BBR what the ... well you can leave that out.

[Moxlotus]

Believe me, when you are on the winning turn you get the neccessary storm count and so it is a 3UU wincondition instead of 3BBBB what the Death Wish route would mean (but what shouldn't be a problem) or 3BBR what the ... well you can leave that out.
 

3BBBB is much easier to get than 3UU.

[wraith985]

I've been kicking around the idea of Death Wish for a while now, as a proxy for Tendrils #2 - as with moxlotus, I absolutely hate the stupid stuff that happens sometimes with singleton Tendrils, but I also don't want to have a wasted slot in the maindeck. Death Wish seems to bridge the gap - it costs the same as Grim Tutor (admittedly heavier on the life side, though), grabs whatever you need from your sideboard, and if nothing stupid happens with your singleton Tendrils you can still use it to fetch something else. I'm also definitely someone who is adverse to cracking Lion's Eye Diamond without the assurance that my spell will resolve, so at least for me it's a pretty easy switch, and definitely worth testing.

And, as Moxlotus points out, 3BBBB is much easier to get than 3UU in a deck based around eight Rituals, so Death Wish seems pretty much strictly better than Cunning Wish. Some people cut Mind's Desire because of the UU - I don't think I'd want my alternate win condition to have that same requirement when playing Rituals is just so much easier.

[Liam-K]

Singleton Death Wish looks like a fantastic idea, I ran bwish in grim and sympathise heavily with the 2 tendrils camp even though I prefer 1.  I'll test it for sure.  It also makes me much more secure about chalice=1 without cramming a hurkyl's into the deck.  Building a wishboard is the wrong way to go but I already ran tendrils #2 in my board.  I might go so far as to include a duress as a wish target, but that's the only other thing I can see justifying.  It probably also bears repeating that you can pretend to be a drain deck and wish back a spent yawgwill should something atrocious happen.

[AJFirst]

TK's got the new thing I think, running Infernal Contract in that slot. Seems like the technology to me.

Of the choices you guys are talking about I agree with Becker: Death Wish would be the fing nutz. the tooblox would be like: Bounce, Win Condition, Draw7, Tutor.

Taking up only 2 slots since you should have bounce and the second win condition already in the board. You could even throw a mana souce in there like the LED if you don't already play it. Seems good.

@Becker, don't be actin' like you're taking a break from Magic. There's a tournement at Pastimes in two weeks or so. I expect to see you there!
-AJ

[Whatever Works]

Isnt a singleton deathwish a little bit of a "win more" card. I mean seriously... Death Wish for LED is AWFUL... No other way to put it... AWFUL... Death Wish for Windfall should NEVER be good. Because, #1 you would need 6 mana... #2 If that actually resolved then your both have small bad hands, or #3 You would of been able to resolve any spell you cast most likely...

In which case you could of just been running a 2nd tendrils in the slot, or something better. Tendrils costing BBBCCCC is generally not very good.

Kyle L

[ErkBek]

Isnt a singleton deathwish a little bit of a "win more" card. I mean seriously... Death Wish for LED is AWFUL... No other way to put it... AWFUL... Death Wish for Windfall should NEVER be good. Because, #1 you would need 6 mana... #2 If that actually resolved then your both have small bad hands, or #3 You would of been able to resolve any spell you cast most likely...

In which case you could of just been running a 2nd tendrils in the slot, or something better. Tendrils costing BBBCCCC is generally not very good.

Kyle L

If you both have small hands....isn't the tendrils going to be even worse? I think wishing for LED is okay. No matter how you put it a wish in the deck blows.

@AJ: Contract was my tech, teammates talked me out of it. When is this pastimes event?

[Liam-K]

Isnt a singleton deathwish a little bit of a "win more" card.

It's lose less.  The point of the card is to be tendrils #2 except with a few more options (such as, like I mentioned, a maindeck out from chalice=1, or wishing up Duress to make sure your depleated hand can finish the job).  The cost of it shouldn't be a huge issue because most of the time you will tutor up the actual tendrils in your deck.

It is less dead than tendrils, but is also tendrils.  Not bad really.

[Whatever Works]

Isnt a singleton deathwish a little bit of a "win more" card.

It's lose less.  The point of the card is to be tendrils #2 except with a few more options (such as, like I mentioned, a maindeck out from chalice=1, or wishing up Duress to make sure your depleated hand can finish the job).  The cost of it shouldn't be a huge issue because most of the time you will tutor up the actual tendrils in your deck.

It is less dead than tendrils, but is also tendrils.  Not bad really.

Maybe its just me, but I find that Tendrils of Agony is extremely underated. What I mean by that is that I OFTEN, and I mean very often win games by casting a tendrils for 5 then for 6, or do some variation of double casting tendrils. At the most recent myriad games which had over 40 people in which I top 2'ed, I won with a double tendrils several times.

Death wish can obviously get reasurence cards, or recovery cards, or a wide variation of spells. Its a tutor!!! However, off a draw 7 I would hate to see it...

Also running another inneficient tutor is the last thing the deck really needs. A singleton death wish would make more sense in other combo decks, but the whole point of pitch long is to protect your bombs so you arent left in situations where you have a small hand, and might not win the game. Obviously, it happens. but I wouldnt want to sacrafice the decks speed etc. for a tutor that costs more money (alot of life that often matters), and generally wont help the deck combo off in the same turn it is cast.

Its a creative card that offers more outs to a combo deck. however, I still cant help but wonder how could there not be a better card for this slot? Until then I will run a 2nd tendrils.

Kyle L

[Smmenen]

I don't agree with the second Tendrils either.  The reasoning is pretty simple: it clogs opening hands.   

I was, I believe, the first to play 4 Tendrils in a deck in Vintage with Meandeck Tendrils, but I think in a deck like long, the most important thing is threat density.  Having a tendrils in your opening hand as you play bombs against your opponent means having a dead card. 

I think Kyle's assessment is right: you can play an early mini tendrils and then another later - but against the very best opponents, that strategy is shit. 

I try to build decks to beat the best players (MDG, etc), and that requires focus more than anything else. 

As for LED, I can't imagine cutting it. 

I wish you guys  played more when Original Long was legal.

One thing I do alot with Grim Long that I"m sure would come up more if I were playing PItch Long is the old: Vamp for LED, Brainstorm into it play to generate a mana and storm when I'm yawg willing. 

Also, LED after Jar or in combination with Bargain is always fantastic.  And it comboes with Brainstorms and Desire. 

I also think that INfernal COntract is cute, but not really that good either.   I would probably consider Meditate before INfernal Contract.  becuase its blue.  but i won't probabably player either.   

[Whatever Works]

LED is amazing. Especially in pitch long, because if your casting a bomb like timetwister and you have an LED in play you very often dont have to break it to be effective. I love casting a big spell leaving LED on the board... having my opponent FoW my threat... Then I FoW back, and then break the LED in responce to my own pitch counter... Sure if they have 2x counters I lose my hand, but if they have 2x counters I probably dont have a hand either after dedicating a minimum of 3 spells toward the last bomb.

There are a zillion LED plays, and they are all amazing. The drawbacks of the card are only existent vs. 1/2 the format, and its still redicules if you play it properly.

@Steve. Your right that 1 Tendrils of Agony is more efficient. They do often clog up hands, and vs. the best players I find that 1 is indeed the proper number. However, In NE I have to factor in a much greater disperity of fish compared to ohio. Alot of decks run extract, hide/seek, Jesters Cap, other ennoying crap. Also, having a little bit of security is great. The worst situation is having your tendrils duressed away when leyline is on the board, or planer void... Or even worse is having a jar on the board and a tendrils in your hand... and you cant crack the jar, because you would RFG your kill condition.

These examples are rare and far inbetween, and if you win your first 2 rounds at an event you propably wont have to play decks that rfg tendrils. However, I feel running 1 slightly dead card to ensure stupid mistakes dont happen is extremely worth while. At least for some form of mental security for those who need it.

Kyle L

[ErkBek]

After hearing the arguements for LED, I think I'd put it back in the deck, in place of a cabal ritual. I cut it since I felt was a "win more" card when you could use it, however I was wrong. It is more of a "broken" card when you can use it.

[ashiXIII]

LED is amazing. Especially in pitch long, because if your casting a bomb like timetwister and you have an LED in play you very often dont have to break it to be effective. I love casting a big spell leaving LED on the board... having my opponent FoW my threat... Then I FoW back, and then break the LED in responce to my own pitch counter... Sure if they have 2x counters I lose my hand, but if they have 2x counters I probably dont have a hand either after dedicating a minimum of 3 spells toward the last bomb.

There are a zillion LED plays, and they are all amazing. The drawbacks of the card are only existent vs. 1/2 the format, and its still redicules if you play it properly.

@Steve. Your right that 1 Tendrils of Agony is more efficient. They do often clog up hands, and vs. the best players I find that 1 is indeed the proper number. However, In NE I have to factor in a much greater disperity of fish compared to ohio. Alot of decks run extract, hide/seek, Jesters Cap, other ennoying crap. Also, having a little bit of security is great. The worst situation is having your tendrils duressed away when leyline is on the board, or planer void... Or even worse is having a jar on the board and a tendrils in your hand... and you cant crack the jar, because you would RFG your kill condition.

These examples are rare and far inbetween, and if you win your first 2 rounds at an event you propably wont have to play decks that rfg tendrils. However, I feel running 1 slightly dead card to ensure stupid mistakes dont happen is extremely worth while. At least for some form of mental security for those who need it.

Kyle L

In reference to having Tendrils in your hand when you want to Jar: I've never really had a problem with this. It has come up, and it's been annoying, but I usually just crack Jar anyway, go broken, set up the win, and Walk. It's not much harder to mystical -> Will, and tutor -> Walk than it is to make 9 storm and 2BB and then cast Tendrils.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Well, I'm still playtesting both Pitch and Grim like a madman to decide which I personally prefer, but here are some random thoughts:

1) LED is not a cuttable spell IMHO. It's always +3 mana, whereas Cabal Ritual is usually. I like "always" a lot better than "usually" when I'm building my decks. Having the legendary "7 mana in - 7 mana out" is absolutely vital in any game that hinges on an early Will win. LED is awesome in that respect.

2) Meatball Subs are the nutz. Sorry, told you they were random!

3) Unless you're up to your eyeballs in Extracts, the lone Tendrils is plenty to win with. I really don't think that I have ever been lethally Extracted, and I've been playing Grim Long for a good while now. Vampiric + BS or Mystical + BS are super-neato ways to answer Extract as well, just for the record. 

4) Maindeck Wishes are just security blankets. You can cite all of these hypothetical scenarios where it saves your hide, but most of those are either unlikely or just plain inefficient. Trust your decisions and play tight. If you do that, you really don't run into that many tricky situations overall.

5) Attention 90% Of Combo Pilots: Your deck is broken. Act like it. Don't water down a potent list based on concerns that are mainly just hyperbole. When a T8 sports > 6 or so Extracts, we'll talk. Not now.

Peace,
Dave

[ashiXIII]

Well, I'm still playtesting both Pitch and Grim like a madman to decide which I personally prefer, but here are some random thoughts:

1) LED is not a cuttable spell IMHO. It's always +3 mana, whereas Cabal Ritual is usually. I like "always" a lot better than "usually" when I'm building my decks. Having the legendary "7 mana in - 7 mana out" is absolutely vital in any game that hinges on an early Will win. LED is awesome in that respect.

2) Meatball Subs are the nutz. Sorry, told you they were random!

3) Unless you're up to your eyeballs in Extracts, the lone Tendrils is plenty to win with. I really don't think that I have ever been lethally Extracted, and I've been playing Grim Long for a good while now. Vampiric + BS or Mystical + BS are super-neato ways to answer Extract as well, just for the record. 

4) Maindeck Wishes are just security blankets. You can cite all of these hypothetical scenarios where it saves your hide, but most of those are either unlikely or just plain inefficient. Trust your decisions and play tight. If you do that, you really don't run into that many tricky situations overall.

5) Attention 90% Of Combo Pilots: Your deck is broken. Act like it. Don't water down a potent list based on concerns that are mainly just hyperbole. When a T8 sports > 6 or so Extracts, we'll talk. Not now.

Peace,
Dave

Not to mention that if you have Tendrils in hand, all Extract really does is shuffle for your Brainstorm.

[Liam-K]

Dude I have lost tons of matches in testing because a game went like this.

him: Shop, Mox, Cap, pass.
me: do everything in my power to go off, but it is a turn 2 hand.
him: any mana source

I know death wish doesn't beat cap, but the 1-at-a-time library hate cards are a bigger issue right now (who the fuck still plays jester's cap?).  I'm not sure I've lost matches to extract, but I don't know anyone who cares about playing fish or the sort of pile that runs hide/seek.  But I know that "island, extract, got FoW? sweet, me too" knocking me out of top 8 would upset me a lot.

[Whatever Works]

Dude I have lost tons of matches in testing because a game went like this.

him: Shop, Mox, Cap, pass.
me: do everything in my power to go off, but it is a turn 2 hand.
him: any mana source

I know death wish doesn't beat cap, but the 1-at-a-time library hate cards are a bigger issue right now (who the fuck still plays jester's cap?).  I'm not sure I've lost matches to extract, but I don't know anyone who cares about playing fish or the sort of pile that runs hide/seek.  But I know that "island, extract, got FoW? sweet, me too" knocking me out of top 8 would upset me a lot.

Jesters Cap really does scare me. Enough to the point where I will play 3 stifle in my sideboard over orim's chant. Mainly, because stifle doubles as a decent answer to Combo (since most versions no longer run duress), and stifle honestly isnt horrible vs. stax as long as your smart about playing them properly, and not oversideboarding. This heavily decides if your on the play or draw vs. stax. How you board is night and day depending on this situation.

Extract is a nuisence more then anything. I have found that in general fish is a pretty easy matchup depending on opponents skill etc. Most scary card in many cases is a well placed meddling mage game 1 which makes you really have to work to find a bounce spell, and then combo off, and often leave yourself susceptable to things you generally would be ready for.

Kyle L.

[Liam-K]

Putting Tendrils in your hand is a slick way to not lose to Extract.  So is Forcing it.  Guess what, both cost you cards you probably needed to try to win next turn.  Unless you're holding the f'ing nutz and your Fish opponent is not (in which case the game is already over, duh) Extract = Time Walk, except sometimes it wins the game.  And fish wins by making you give it more turns than it deserves.

[ashiXIII]

Dude I have lost tons of matches in testing because a game went like this.

him: Shop, Mox, Cap, pass.
me: do everything in my power to go off, but it is a turn 2 hand.
him: any mana source

I know death wish doesn't beat cap, but the 1-at-a-time library hate cards are a bigger issue right now (who the fuck still plays jester's cap?).  I'm not sure I've lost matches to extract, but I don't know anyone who cares about playing fish or the sort of pile that runs hide/seek.  But I know that "island, extract, got FoW? sweet, me too" knocking me out of top 8 would upset me a lot.

Jesters Cap really does scare me. Enough to the point where I will play 3 stifle in my sideboard over orim's chant. Mainly, because stifle doubles as a decent answer to Combo (since most versions no longer run duress), and stifle honestly isnt horrible vs. stax as long as your smart about playing them properly, and not oversideboarding. This heavily decides if your on the play or draw vs. stax. How you board is night and day depending on this situation.

Kyle L.

Wait, what? The only combo deck in the format that doesn't run Duress is Pitch Long. Every other combo deck still runs it as 3-4 of. I understand that Pitch Long is the most played combo deck, but it's by no means "most of them."

Extract is a nuisence more then anything. I have found that in general fish is a pretty easy matchup depending on opponents skill etc. Most scary card in many cases is a well placed meddling mage game 1 which makes you really have to work to find a bounce spell, and then combo off, and often leave yourself susceptable to things you generally would be ready for.

Kyle L.

Are we even playing the same deck? When I go off, it's usually broken enough that answering a Mage on Tendrils is insanely easy. Mage on Dark Ritual is much, much harder to win through.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Putting Tendrils in your hand is a slick way to not lose to Extract.  So is Forcing it.  Guess what, both cost you cards you probably needed to try to win next turn.  Unless you're holding the f'ing nutz and your Fish opponent is not (in which case the game is already over, duh) Extract = Time Walk, except sometimes it wins the game.  And fish wins by making you give it more turns than it deserves.

Actually, if they fire off an Extract and I negate it via FoW or a topdeck tutor + BS, we're all square in terms of turns sacrificed. They only win if the extra turns occur with relevant threats on the board. If they Extract turn 1 and I stop it, then it's all a matter of semantics. I may not kill them on the literal turn 1, but I can almost always kill them before they can mount anything even resembling a defense, which is worth the same 3 points as any other win, when last I checked.

[Liam-K]

Putting Tendrils in your hand is a slick way to not lose to Extract.  So is Forcing it.  Guess what, both cost you cards you probably needed to try to win next turn.  Unless you're holding the f'ing nutz and your Fish opponent is not (in which case the game is already over, duh) Extract = Time Walk, except sometimes it wins the game.  And fish wins by making you give it more turns than it deserves.

Actually, if they fire off an Extract and I negate it via FoW or a topdeck tutor + BS, we're all square in terms of turns sacrificed. They only win if the extra turns occur with relevant threats on the board. If they Extract turn 1 and I stop it, then it's all a matter of semantics. I may not kill them on the literal turn 1, but I can almost always kill them before they can mount anything even resembling a defense, which is worth the same 3 points as any other win, when last I checked.

Or if they, you know, play cards.

Example.  You have a turn 1 hand and are on the draw.

fish: island, extract.  You force.  You can no longer win next turn.
long: cards that don't win
fish: fetch tundra, meddling mage on a card that hurts, depending on what long played last turn

Oops.  I guess it mattered.

[AJFirst]

You act like Meddling Mage makes he game unwinnable, not to mention on the draw casting force it'ss till easy to put yourself in a winning position.

Becker, it's this coming Sunday actually. I'm talking to Pastimes and Soly about putting up information real quick to get some more attendance.
-AJ

[g0tenks00]

Quote from: Tin_Mox5831 on Today at 08:01:20 PM
Quote from: Liam-K on Today at 06:19:47 PM
Putting Tendrils in your hand is a slick way to not lose to Extract.  So is Forcing it.  Guess what, both cost you cards you probably needed to try to win next turn.  Unless you're holding the f'ing nutz and your Fish opponent is not (in which case the game is already over, duh) Extract = Time Walk, except sometimes it wins the game.  And fish wins by making you give it more turns than it deserves.

Actually, if they fire off an Extract and I negate it via FoW or a topdeck tutor + BS, we're all square in terms of turns sacrificed. They only win if the extra turns occur with relevant threats on the board. If they Extract turn 1 and I stop it, then it's all a matter of semantics. I may not kill them on the literal turn 1, but I can almost always kill them before they can mount anything even resembling a defense, which is worth the same 3 points as any other win, when last I checked.

Or if they, you know, play cards.

Example.  You have a turn 1 hand and are on the draw.

fish: island, extract.  You force.  You can no longer win next turn.
long: cards that don't win
fish: fetch tundra, meddling mage on a card that hurts, depending on what long played last turn

Oops.  I guess it mattered.

I don't think the fish matchup is as scary as you make it out to be. Sure, if they resolve extract and you can't deal with it, you'll lose that game.

First of all, I don't see how the absence of force of will after forcing the extract in your example, would cause you to not be able to win during your first turn ... unless of course the card you removed was part of your turn 1 barrage of spells. The way you stated it however, seems like you're presupposing you'll need the force of will in order to protect your win. Now if I were the fish player and I actually HAD countermagic in hand, I would much rather use it to force thru my extract right then rather than waiting to force another bomb played by the long player. So if we take this into consideration, we can rule out the possibility that the fish player has any more countermagic. If he didn't force back to resolve extract, I thnk it's reasonable that the fish player has no countermagic in hand.

Going off that, I'll consider the alternative: that you were claiming you cannot win because you removed some blue card that you needed to go off, when forcing extract. Sure, maybe in that case your ideal hand is slightly weakened. However, if it's storm count you're worried about, you need not worry. Menendian was saying somewhere in another thread here how with long, storm is 'inherent'. (altho i'm not sure how true this is for pitch long vs GL) But as per this argument, you shouldn't focus so much on the importance of certain individual cards to make or break the hand, but should more so work with what you have and be creative about it.

I think you're also assuming that fish has the nuts here, able to extract and cast mage the following turn. Overall I'm not sure the fish matchip is something to really be concerned about, especially given recent tournament results at gencon and beyond.

[MaxxMatt]

About playing with a single Winning condition.

Any deck would perform always better rather than playing with two or three or more.
Period.
Any other words around this purely "statistic" argument would be a waste of time.

On the other hand, I simply realized that pure theory would not often go in pair with raw experience.

Statistically speaking, you would always play one winner, you would lose a few games because of nasty combinations of Extracts/H&S/Jesters/Others but, far more crucially, you would win far more games because of this perfect maindeck configuration.

But real life MtG isn't pure statistics.
You would often lose a game or a match during the Swiss' rounds but, in order to win, you should avoid losing a single match during the Top8s.

As much as Statistic is strong and predicting, it fail to offer to you the possibility of choosing when lose that damn single game.
It would happen during Swiss rounds and you hit the minor evil, but, which woud be your feelings when it occurs during the Top8s of any tourney?

Would you state that "perfectdeckbuiding plus badluck" killed you or simply "a not so foresighting deckbuiding stye"?
Due to the fact that, testing decks, what you look at is ONLY pure statistic ( how much count which game you lost? ), to achieve a complete spread of different perspectives, you should look at which deck you could face more often during THE CRUCIAL matches of your real life toruneys.

American players would face MW.decs and Extract.decs far more often than any other European/Asian player, so WHY ON EARTH, risk so much playing a single winning condition?
Add another ToA or a single DeathWish and you could let Fish resolve the first Extract, if needed, too.
You have not resolved ALL the problems, but more than HALF of them AND without losing almost anything.

1/2 resolved problem is far more better than 0 problems solved


Maxx

[Liam-K]

Quote from: Tin_Mox5831 on Today at 08:01:20 PM
Quote from: Liam-K on Today at 06:19:47 PM
Putting Tendrils in your hand is a slick way to not lose to Extract.  So is Forcing it.  Guess what, both cost you cards you probably needed to try to win next turn.  Unless you're holding the f'ing nutz and your Fish opponent is not (in which case the game is already over, duh) Extract = Time Walk, except sometimes it wins the game.  And fish wins by making you give it more turns than it deserves.

Actually, if they fire off an Extract and I negate it via FoW or a topdeck tutor + BS, we're all square in terms of turns sacrificed. They only win if the extra turns occur with relevant threats on the board. If they Extract turn 1 and I stop it, then it's all a matter of semantics. I may not kill them on the literal turn 1, but I can almost always kill them before they can mount anything even resembling a defense, which is worth the same 3 points as any other win, when last I checked.

Or if they, you know, play cards.

Example.  You have a turn 1 hand and are on the draw.

fish: island, extract.  You force.  You can no longer win next turn.
long: cards that don't win
fish: fetch tundra, meddling mage on a card that hurts, depending on what long played last turn

Oops.  I guess it mattered.

I don't think the fish matchup is as scary as you make it out to be. Sure, if they resolve extract and you can't deal with it, you'll lose that game.

First of all, I don't see how the absence of force of will after forcing the extract in your example, would cause you to not be able to win during your first turn ... unless of course the card you removed was part of your turn 1 barrage of spells. The way you stated it however, seems like you're presupposing you'll need the force of will in order to protect your win. Now if I were the fish player and I actually HAD countermagic in hand, I would much rather use it to force thru my extract right then rather than waiting to force another bomb played by the long player. So if we take this into consideration, we can rule out the possibility that the fish player has any more countermagic. If he didn't force back to resolve extract, I thnk it's reasonable that the fish player has no countermagic in hand.

Going off that, I'll consider the alternative: that you were claiming you cannot win because you removed some blue card that you needed to go off, when forcing extract. Sure, maybe in that case your ideal hand is slightly weakened. However, if it's storm count you're worried about, you need not worry. Menendian was saying somewhere in another thread here how with long, storm is 'inherent'. (altho i'm not sure how true this is for pitch long vs GL) But as per this argument, you shouldn't focus so much on the importance of certain individual cards to make or break the hand, but should more so work with what you have and be creative about it.

I think you're also assuming that fish has the nuts here, able to extract and cast mage the following turn. Overall I'm not sure the fish matchip is something to really be concerned about, especially given recent tournament results at gencon and beyond.

1) Don't take it so literally.  I'm trying to illustrate that a non-lethal extract buys fish time to cause more problems and attack with men (ie their gameplan).  I'm not arguing that meddling mage is game over and this exact scenario isn't that likely, but similar stuff happens all the time.  I didn't feel like drafting up a full list of both hand's contents and a set of descision trees, so I came up with something plausible, identifiable, and brief.

2) Extract, Meddling Mage, 2 lands is not exactly the nuts.  You can replace meddling mage with any relevant turn 2 play (see 1).  I picked something that you would easily accept should slow you down.  Again, that's how fish works, they want you to pass them turn because you need just a little more to work around their obnoxious cards.

3) Fish might not be your worst matchup, but it's still one you're going to run in to.  If you had some sort of access to tendrils post-Extract, you would have let the spell resolve and won the game.



Lets simplify this whole arguement.

question 1: how likely are you to lose a game due to attacks against your single Tendrils?  This includes games where the card was unable to hit your Tendrils but was a big enough tempo hit to cost you the game.

question 2: how likely are you to lose a game due to the increased chance of drawing Tendrils before you're ready if you run 2 copies?
--question 2b: how likely are you to lose a game due to drawing a death wish?
--question 2c: how likely are you to lose a game due to not having the card you cut?

question 3: which scenario do you have the most control over?  As MaxxMatt said, which situation can your skill with the deck maximize best?


Personally I feel that if you go into contortions to avoid losing outright to Extract (vamp + brainstorm = dead card in hand?!) you're making a 1 mana sorcery way too effective.  Worse yet, to actually lose the game outright to it is pretty unacceptable.  On the other hand, 2 tendrils is suboptimal for obvious and well understood reasons.  That's why I like the Death Wish plan, it provides options.  The card both minimizes library hate's relevance and does things that aren't Tendrils of Agony, at the cost of mana and life.  It is an oh shit card that solves more actual problems than anything else I've thought of, and it is also a non-terrible late game topdeck.

Anyways I think I'm going to drop out of this, since I feel like I'm discussing the 60th card in keeper.  We're all just going to metagame/personal preferance our lists anyway.

[Moxlotus]

In addition to the reasons already listed (jar, necro, extract) I just have to ask if nobody has ever had to cast a mini Tendrils to stay alive? 

Or if you draw a bunch of cards off Bargain/Necro and hit rits, dick, and a Tendrils? 

Not to mention that a second Tendrils is sweet in the combo mirror, which is becoming disgustingly more popular.

Obviously, statistically speaking 1 win condition is better than 2 when you don't really want that shitter in your opening grip.  But there are a lot of little reasons why a second Tendrils maindeck will stop you from flat out losing a match you had no business losing.  Those are the games that piss me off and those are the games I want to stop.  If I fuck up somewhere, fine whatever, I made a misplay.  But to lose to stupid random shit, or lose a game I had no business losing like a necro or desire fizzling,  because I wanted bounce#2/some utility card instead of another Tendrils pisses me off to no end.  Those are the reasons I play Tendrils #2.

[Smmenen]

I, personally, don't buy the arguments for 2nd md tendrils.

However, I think there is one compelling reason to run it: If you run Demonic Consultation.  That's about it though.  After board, it's a totally different story.

Strategically, however, I applaud people who wish to run more Tendrils as that makes my single tendrils build stronger: people are less likely to devote sb space to cards like Extract if most of the metagame runs 2 Tendrils main. 

[parallax]

One problem with the 1 Tendrils vs. 2 Tendrils debate is that you are much more likely to notice losing because you lost your lone Tendrils than you are to notice losing because you have Tendrils in hand rather than a business spell. You might want to designate one copy of Tendrils as Tendrils #2 and see how often you lose when you could have won if it were whatever card you cut for it. Then, compare that to the number of times you actually lost to a random card like Extract.

Are there any cards that would be useful while comboing normally that would allow you to win without Tendrils? Regrowth comes to mind as you could (possibly) deck someone with Memory Jar and Timetwister if you had to.

[Moxlotus]

One problem with the 1 Tendrils vs. 2 Tendrils debate is that you are much more likely to notice losing because you lost your lone Tendrils than you are to notice losing because you have Tendrils in hand rather than a business spell.

To get one thing clear, people aren't cutting business to fit in Tendrils #2, they are cutting the utility stuff.  MisD#3, and bounce #2 are the usual candidates.  That would make it even harder to determine if you would have had Misdirection in hand you would have won, since you would have had to pitch X blue business spell which would have caused you to make Y play differently which would do...

EDIT:  Not worth a whole new post but

One last point is you can often bluff not having a tendrils, and with mana floating cast that grim tutor and act like its your make and break spell... then have your opponents up the storm for you as they counter it... to cast tendrils from your hand immedietly after.

This happens to me a lot actually.  In the 5 rounds I played at a local tournament, I did this 3 times each time baiting with tutor or Will itself.