Pitch Long

[Tin_Mox5831]

I don't want this thread to go the way of the dodo, so I have been testing this deck incessantly. In the process of doing so, I have lost way too much sleep over the final business spell in this deck. I cut the Hurkyl's Recall from the MD because my meta isn't really conducive to that card in general. (IE: It's dead too often.) I have tested just about everything under the sun, but I can't reach a stable position on any one card, as the odds of seeing that card slot appear are fairly remote, but the situation is occasionally game-defining. Here are a few of my experiments and some thoughts on their results:

1) Windfall: This is by far the most mercurial card I tested. There were games when it was pure gold, and there were games where it was terrible. I really think that this card is weakened by the pitch magic more than any card in the deck. So, in the interest of my pitch spells, Windfall got voted off the island. It may return, however.

2) Time Spiral: Please don't laugh at that. Seriously. Bastards.  My meta has a lot of graveyard-based decks (Ichorid, Dragon, etc.) so an extra Timetwister effect seems like a good fit. The thing is that this deck plays real lands, so this card holds some degree of merit for that reason. I had some success with this card, but I really don't think it makes the cut for anything but local tournaments. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

3) Gush: Yet another addition made possible by the fetchland manabase. I found it to be better than I anticipated more often than not. It's not Misdirectable, which comes in handy more than I thought it would. The real downside is the possible tempo loss and the fact that it will almost never be cast twice in a game. Pretty neat card while it lasted, though.  :lol:

4) Infernal Contract: This card didn't work well for me at all, but I'm almost certain I know why. TK and others have reported success with this card, and I believe that the main reason behind this is the presence of a second Tendrils in the maindeck. I'm not a fan of the second Tendrils, and I feel that my subpar results with Contract may stem from that decision. I really think that if you play two Tendrils in your personal build, this card could be the awesome sauce.

5) Meditate: I liked this card from the moment it was mentioned in this thread. I found that although it provided more than it's share of wins when cast, the cost of fizzling under it were just too damning. I found it very difficult to live through the skipped turn unless the Meditate gave me a handful of pitch spells. On a couple of occasions, I stole an Ancestral, etc. during the skipped turn, which does tend to smooth over the gamestate somewhat. The jury is very much out on this card. I'm really not sure of this card's true potential but rather it's capacity as it related to my gamestates.

Any thoughts on the subject?

Peace,
Dave

[Moxlotus]

Windfall is a very mercurial card (I like that term).  A Windfall for 4 can win you the game, but one for 7 will crap out.  It's really weird.  But I think the card should be in the deck simply because I don't think there is anything better.  It draws 4+ cards more than often than not and doesn't skip a turn.  It is blue--that is really important.  One key play I like making is doing a turn 1 draw 7 if possible.  This screws up your opponent's hand and leaves you with land+artifact(s) on the table.  Sure, sometimes you want to mull but I'd say this play screws over your opponent much more than it screws over yourself.

I have tried Gush in the past and found it lackluster, even compared to Windfall.  It essentially can't be replayed with Will, and sometimes it can't be played at all since you fetched out a Swamp instead of a Sea.  Then there's the obvious thing about setting yourself back 2 land drops.

Intuition is an idea that I have yet to try out, but I predict Windfall to be better for the deck.

In the end, going 2 colors makes you play with a single card you don't want to.  The second Tendrils.  The second bounce.  The third Misdirection.  The crappy bomb.

[FTKzak]

Just trying to brainstorm a couple more cards that might be worth trying out...

Despite the UU in it's casting cost, Trade Secrets is an instant, costs three mana, and could potentially net you A LOT of cards. You're seeing twice the number they are, and if cast at EOT, it could really set you up nicely for the next turn.

Frantic Search was another possibility I came up with. It gets you two new cards, and untaps your mana sources so you can put those new cards to good use.

And best of all, both cards are blue.

[Ged]

Despite the UU in it's casting cost, Trade Secrets is an instant

Trade Secrets is a sorcery.

[FTKzak]

Despite the UU in it's casting cost, Trade Secrets is an instant

Trade Secrets is a sorcery.

As a matter of fact it is...my bad.

I forgot to mention that you have to play Quicken too

The sorcery speed CC isn't that much of a drawback, considering most of the powerful blue card drawers are sorceries.

[M.Solymossy]

Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Accumulated Knowledge
Thirst for Knowledge

Stroke my genius
Read the Runes


------

Deep Analysis
Braingyser


I rest my case.

[Namingway]

Sorry for necro-ing a month-old thread, but this is the only real discussion on Pitch Long I've seen on these boards so I'll post my thoughts here anyway.
I was wondering how Pitch Long deals with Trickbind, since it can't be Forced or Misdirected. Will people start playing Grim Long (which I feel is not as good as Pitch Long) over this? Or is Duress in the board enough, since people will only play Trickbind in the sideboard anyway?

[Gekoratel]

I don't think Trickbind will be as bad a card for Pitch Long as it looks on paper.  The only archetypes that will play it are Mana Drain control decks and possibly fish decks.  For the drain matchup Pitch Long already has Xantid Swarm which trumps Trickbind. For playing against Fish they will need to either tap out for guys on the early turns or leave 1U open which smells pretty fishy.  It would still be a problem card from fish but I could see boarding in 1-2 Duress against Fish if Trickbind began to gain popularity.

[Purple Hat]

I'm not sure that's true.  trickbind is an easily splashable no questions asked post board turn 1 answer to storm combo for many decks.  this seems like a highly playable sideboard card for any deck playing blue.  I remember talking about playing hindering touch in my board at gencon and deciding that I couldn't reliably produce 3U on turn1-2 with dragon and my matchup was pretty good anyway.  trickbind solves the mana problem.

[Namingway]

But since you'll be boarding in Duress and/or Xantid Swarm vs. most decks playing blue anyway, I don't think Trickbind will be as much of a problem as I thought.

Has there been any recent changes to this deck? I haven't heard much about it for a while. Or have people started playing Grim Long instead?

[Disburden]

Grim long just might be a better deck right now since Pitch Long pretty much has a heck of a hard time against Gifts. Meandeck Gifts is going to be everywhere on the next SCG. Why play a deck that rolls to it when you can play Grim long? It's a deck designed to pound on Mana Drain decks like Gifts. Grim Long is a lot more difficult to play though in all honesty. So if you want to play that deck I would test a heck of a lot with it. I actually prefer Grim Long anyway because it uses Xantid Swarm. That's a big MVP in that deck. Also keep in mind that Grim Long uses Duress which is good against Spilt Second cards (Trickbind).

[Implacable]

Grim long just might be a better deck right now since Pitch Long pretty much has a heck of a hard time against Gifts. Meandeck Gifts is going to be everywhere on the next SCG. Why play a deck that rolls to it when you can play Grim long? It's a deck designed to pound on Mana Drain decks like Gifts. Grim Long is a lot more difficult to play though in all honesty. So if you want to play that deck I would test a heck of a lot with it.

Umm...  What?  PitchLong has a much better matchup against MDG Game 1 because it has more protection for its kill, and it has the  same plan that GrimLong has postboard (Xantid).  I've tested the matchup with both decks against MDG pretty extensively, and Grim Long's horrible percentage against MDG was one of the reasons that I dropped it.

[Moxlotus]

Ok, both decks are unfavorable matches against MD Gifts.  In Steve's first articles he talks about Drain decks being his worst matches.  PL has an even worse game 1 because your protection involves pitching more gas but they'll be able to counter your pitch spell because they just scrolled for another counter too--so instead of being down a bomb and a disruption, you are down a bomb, disruption+pitched bomb.

Grim Long is a lot more difficult to play though in all honesty.

So what?  People say this as its a good thing.  More difficult != better. 

[Disburden]

Ok, both decks are unfavorable matches against MD Gifts.  In Steve's first articles he talks about Drain decks being his worst matches.  PL has an even worse game 1 because your protection involves pitching more gas but they'll be able to counter your pitch spell because they just scrolled for another counter too--so instead of being down a bomb and a disruption, you are down a bomb, disruption+pitched bomb.

Grim Long is a lot more difficult to play though in all honesty.

So what?  People say this as its a good thing.  More difficult != better. 

I actually meant that the deck is more difficult to play as a negative reason to choose the deck in a tournament situation. Why did you think I meant that was a good thing?

Also, Last time I played Grim Long against drain deck, I did fairly well. Grim Long can just press it's balls to the wall without having to waste it's hand on Counter pitching. Thats what I meant by saying Grim Long was better against Gifts. You can't win their battle, so just push the gas pedal down.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quite honestly, Grim Long is horrible against anything involving Drains, Forces and Scrolls.... Pitch Long has, imo, a better matchup against it, simply because you have a bigger chance to win (or drop Necro) turn 1 or 2 with backup. If you have to go the slow way of overhelming the counterwall, like GL usually has to, your first bomb gets forced, the second drained and than you typically die. Not to mention that MisD is crucial in slowing down the Gifts-deck, Ancestral suddenly being high risk. And, quite honestly, I didn't find GL much harder to play than PL. Both loose to incredibly small errors.

[Disburden]

this is a quote from Steve Menendian on the Star City Games forums from a thread that existed a few weeks ago:

Having said all of that, I would play Grim Long - but primarily for this reason: I think it is the only Long variant that can really beat MDG. I also think that the growing possibility of Split Second cards makes Grim Long a theoretically stronger deck than it was before. The other two reasons I would play Grim Long are: 1) Having created it, I'm partial and have lots of experience with it and 2) it's faster and you play it more aggressively.

With my testing, I really don't disagree with any of this. If there is anything wrong with Grim Long it is the 5c mana base. This has never bothered me much, since you can kill turn one or turn two. Also you can go the 2.5 JDizzle route and play fetchlands with Xantids, Duress, No FOW, etc.

[AJFirst]

Pitchlong versus MDG is obscenely in the favor of the Drains. With 4+ more actual counters, and Scrolls quickly grabbing pitch-magic makes it really tough. The thing is that Misdirection becomes a way to counter your combo protection, whereas with Duress you can't do that. Also, without dilluting the deck with more reactive cards, and none-black spells you can go more balls out with Grim due to the higher threat density and the fact that the disruption doesn't need cards to pitch.

While Pitch has a stronger match-up against Null Rod Fish and Stax, and is generally more resiliant. In a Gifts heavy, high-powered metagame I'd go with the more broken version with Duress.
-AJ

[Implacable]

Pitchlong versus MDG is obscenely in the favor of the Drains. With 4+ more actual counters, and Scrolls quickly grabbing pitch-magic makes it really tough. The thing is that Misdirection becomes a way to counter your combo protection, whereas with Duress you can't do that. Also, without dilluting the deck with more reactive cards, and none-black spells you can go more balls out with Grim due to the higher threat density and the fact that the disruption doesn't need cards to pitch.

While Pitch has a stronger match-up against Null Rod Fish and Stax, and is generally more resiliant. In a Gifts heavy, high-powered metagame I'd go with the more broken version with Duress.
-AJ

Your statements are reasonable, AJ- as an aside, I'm currently playing a PitchLong variant that cuts Misdirection for Duress, partially as a metagame decision and partially because it just seems better.  If you don't mind, I'd like to dwell on that last sentence.  While GrimLong may be slightly more broken on paper, there are different kinds of brokenness.  Gifts is a good example of a deck that is more broken than the sum of its parts, while GrimLong is actually slightly less broken than it is as a decklist.  What I mean by this is that brokenness could be viewed as either the raw power of a group of cards, or the raw power of a strategy that can regularly get and use broken cards.  Gifts can and does produce a significant quantity of similar games, where Gifts piles, turn 1 plays, and general tactics are identical.  GrimLong, on the other hand, must generate a new winning routine every time they draw a new hand, because their deck is too filled with one-ofs to attain a homogenous play-scheme.  PitchLong has the same kind of brokenness that Gifts does, because its consistent mana-base and more stable structure allows for broken and repeatable lines of play.  To be 'broken' is something not well understood, and the various forms of being broken should be further analyzed.

[Moxlotus]

I'm currently playing a PitchLong variant that cuts Misdirection for Duress, partially as a metagame decision and partially because it just seems better

I would definitely not suggest doing this.  One of the biggest reasons to play MisD is because it pitches to FoW.  There is no way in hell we would have played Misdirection if it was any other color.  You really have to choose between the pitch counter suite and Duress.  I don't think you can play both in the maindeck of a combo deck.

On the "brokeness factor" between the decks.  I said it in another thread.  I have no idea why people think 5c Grim Long is more broken.  Seriously.  There is one. more. bomb.  Wheel of Fortune.  That's it.  Regrowth doesn't count because that's an "oh shit, all of my stuff got countered, let's see if I have a chance to pull it out" card.  Pitch Long is actually FASTER because it doesn't have to waste a turn tapping its land to play Duress.  PL has the ability to slow play with BS/fetch--5c Grim Long doesn't.  Is it this ability to slowplay that makes people think the deck is a half to a turn slower?  Having the option to go slower doesnt mean its slower, the deck just has more flexibility to its game plan.

Would I play PL in a field of MDG.  Hell no.  MDG destroys PL.  MDG does a pretty good job of destroying Grim Long too.  Against MDG Duress>pitch because you don't want to pitch your bombs/BS only to get countered again.  Slaver didn't have enough counters and abilities to find them which is why PL kicked the living crap out of it.  MDG does.

[Implacable]

I'm currently playing a PitchLong variant that cuts Misdirection for Duress, partially as a metagame decision and partially because it just seems better

I would definitely not suggest doing this.  One of the biggest reasons to play MisD is because it pitches to FoW.  There is no way in hell we would have played Misdirection if it was any other color.  You really have to choose between the pitch counter suite and Duress.  I don't think you can play both in the maindeck of a combo deck.

Absolutely, what you say makes sense.  Unfortunately, a large amount (probably a majority) of my metagame is Stax/Fish, and Misdirection is decidedly poor against both of those matchups.  Against both of those matchups, Duress takes their main disruption piece, and I go off easy, whereas Misdirection sits in my hand like a retarded stepchild without Force.

[Moxlotus]

I'm currently playing a PitchLong variant that cuts Misdirection for Duress, partially as a metagame decision and partially because it just seems better

I would definitely not suggest doing this.  One of the biggest reasons to play MisD is because it pitches to FoW.  There is no way in hell we would have played Misdirection if it was any other color.  You really have to choose between the pitch counter suite and Duress.  I don't think you can play both in the maindeck of a combo deck.

Absolutely, what you say makes sense.  Unfortunately, a large amount (probably a majority) of my metagame is Stax/Fish, and Misdirection is decidedly poor against both of those matchups.  Against both of those matchups, Duress takes their main disruption piece, and I go off easy, whereas Misdirection sits in my hand like a stupid stepchild without Force.

Then why play forces in the main at all?  Play JD's 2.5c Long deck that he made top 4 with on Ohio.  The deck can have a rough time against Fish depending on the build, but it was designed to crush Stax.  As I said, choose between Duress and pitch spells.  Don't mix and match in the maindeck.  It simply won't work.

[Implacable]

I'm currently playing a PitchLong variant that cuts Misdirection for Duress, partially as a metagame decision and partially because it just seems better

I would definitely not suggest doing this.  One of the biggest reasons to play MisD is because it pitches to FoW.  There is no way in hell we would have played Misdirection if it was any other color.  You really have to choose between the pitch counter suite and Duress.  I don't think you can play both in the maindeck of a combo deck.

Absolutely, what you say makes sense.  Unfortunately, a large amount (probably a majority) of my metagame is Stax/Fish, and Misdirection is decidedly poor against both of those matchups.  Against both of those matchups, Duress takes their main disruption piece, and I go off easy, whereas Misdirection sits in my hand like a stupid stepchild without Force.

Then why play forces in the main at all?  Play JD's 2.5c Long deck that he made top 4 with on Ohio.  The deck can have a rough time against Fish depending on the build, but it was designed to crush Stax.  As I said, choose between Duress and pitch spells.  Don't mix and match in the maindeck.  It simply won't work.

I am certainly open to testing that build, and I find it very interesting.  Like most players, I said into G post-board, so I'd definitely be open to just adding it flat-out.  On the other hand, a bad Fish matchup would be a very serious problem in my metagame, so much so that any deck with a very bad matchup is basically unplayable.  I will, however, look into the new list with interest.

EDIT: I would also like to point out that I have a problem with running only Duress as a disruption piece.  While I understand the strategy of throwing bombs at the other guy until he goes down, I prefer to develop a series of winning plays protected by disruption than baiting with an inferior strategy and then having it resolve, much to my dismay.  In other words, Bomb+Disruption > Bomb+Bomb.

[Implacable]

Hmm.   You make a compelling argument.  If I may expand, I find that FoW and Duress fulfill different roles within the deck's disruption: Duress is better before and after going off (by going off, I mean casting a massive Will or Desire, the deck's usual path to victory), and Force of Will is better in between those two points.  In other words, I prefer to have both pieces of disruption in order to have the right type of disruption (proactive vs. reactive) at the right time.

[ErkBek]

If I were to run 2.5C Pitch Long anytime soon I'd run with this maindeck

Land 12
4 Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Usea
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Academy

Accel 18
8 Sol-lo-moxen-crypt
0 LED
1 Petal
1 Vault
4 Dark Rit
4 Cabal Rit

Protection 8
4 FoW
2/3 MisD
1 Chain of Vapor
1/0 Hurkyl's Recall

Business 22
4 BS
2 Grim
1 VT
1 MT
1 DT
1 Iseal
2 Infernal Contract
1 Ancestral
1 Tinker
1 Jar
1 Twister
1 Desire
1 Bargain
1 Necro
1 Will
1 Tendrils
1 Time Walk

[Spartacus210]

Then in the SB would you use the Bayou/Trop + Swarms switch? And why 2 Infernal Contract over anything else, such as Windfall?

[Imsomniac101]

If I were to run 2.5C Pitch Long anytime soon I'd run with this maindeck

Land 12
4 Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Usea
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Academy

Accel 18
8 Sol-lo-moxen-crypt
0 LED
1 Petal
1 Vault
4 Dark Rit
4 Cabal Rit

Protection 8
4 FoW
2/3 MisD
1 Chain of Vapor
1/0 Hurkyl's Recall

Business 22
4 BS
2 Grim
1 VT
1 MT
1 DT
1 Iseal
2 Infernal Contract
1 Ancestral
1 Tinker
1 Jar
1 Twister
1 Desire
1 Bargain
1 Necro
1 Will
1 Tendrils
1 Time Walk

Only 2 Grim Tutors? Kobefan. What do you think of Windfall and LED? I'm looking at purchasing the cards necessary for Long and I'm not sure which version.

[ErkBek]

I don't like LED in the deck without 3 Grims. Also, as stated about a million times, LED and pitch counters are bad synergy.

I've decided to switch to 2 Grims and 2 Contract strictly because I feel that a ritual + Grim in your hand limits your options to playing grim tutor for something. However, a ritual + contract allows many more options if it resolves because it is finding you 4 random cards compared to 1 specific card. For a while I tried 3 Grim, 2 Contract, and 0 Iseal and didn't like it because you have too many spells that need a ritual too be good.

Windfall is gone because it frequently don't pan out the way you'd like it too.

As for the Time Walk slot, you could run the 3rd MisD / Hurkyl's there if you'd like. 

As for the SB, I'm not exactly sure what I'd run. Xantids are nice, but I'm not sure I'd run them. I think I'd rather have full set of duress on the SB to combat gifts and combo and then a really solid sideboard vs. fish and stax.

[memnarch]

here is my list

mana 31
4 polluted delta
3 underground sea
1 badlands
1 swamp
1 island
1 tolarian academy
5 moxe[/color]s
1 black lotus
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
1 lotus petal
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual

tutor 5
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal
1 vampiric tutor
1 personal tutor
1 mystical tutor

draw 14
1 ancestral recall
1 timetwister
1 tinker
1 memory jar
1 windfall
1 wheel of fortune
1 time spiral
1 yawgmoths bargain
1 yawgmoths will
1 necropotence
4 night's whisper

utility 6
2 repeal
2 duress
1 timewalk
1 hurkyl's recall

win 4
4 tendrils of agony

I really like night's whisper after trying it in my deck. Getting black mana sources is the easiest thing to get in the deck. Also after tutoring with a tutor that puts it on top of your library it's good to be able to draw it that turn and not have to wait. Repeal is great for that reason. Plus mox sapphire and repeal are more than broken. I often find myself tutoring for a sapphire if I am holding two repeals. I was almost inclined to switch my lands to city of brass and gemstone mine but wastelands are a problem. The only card I really need outside of blue and black is wheel of fortune. It usually wins turn 2-3.

This post violates Rule 1, Deficient Writing Skills.  It's also a borderline violation of Rule 4, Lack of Content, given the cursory support provided for your claims.  This is not the first time a moderator has needed to provide guidance for you, so I'm giving you a verbal warning.  We expect all users on The Mana Drain will read and comply with the site rules.  Please take the time to do this before making any additional posts.  If you're unclear on whether or not a post would violate the rules, please feel free to PM a moderator, and they will be happy to assist you. 
-DA

[memnarch]

1really? well guess what 2ive been working with this deck for some time now and have tested it 3alot. so i really dont think its fair to say it has lack of content. this is the 4most tight ass stuck up website i have seen in my life. dont you guys have somthing better to do?


Despite DA's helpful suggestion to you that you read the rules, you have clearly not done so. Otherwise you would have realized that arguing with moderator actions in a thread like this is strictly prohibited. Further, your attempts to use the English language have not improved at all.

1. Capital letters are required for the first letter of each sentence, and for the first person nominative singular pronoun "I."
2. A contraction, such as "can't," must use an apostrophe to separate the two words which are being joined together.
3. "Alot" is not a word. "A lot" may be what you were attempting to write.
4. Compound adjectives -- adjectives composed of multiple words -- must use a hyphen to link each individual word. It would be instead correct to call this the
"most tight-ass stuck-up website."
Full Warning.
Do not post anything like this again. If you have a question for a moderator, please PM one of us.
-- TAL

[Komatteru]

mana 31
4 polluted delta
3 underground sea
1 badlands
1 swamp
1 island
1 tolarian academy
5 moxes
1 black lotus
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
1 lotus petal
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual

tutor 5
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal
1 vampiric tutor
1 personal tutor
1 mystical tutor

draw 14
1 ancestral recall
1 timetwister
1 tinker
1 memory jar
1 windfall
1 wheel of fortune
1 time spiral
1 yawgmoths bargain
1 yawgmoths will
1 necropotence
4 night's whisper

utility 6
2 repeal
2 duress
1 timewalk
1 hurkyl's recall

win 4
4 tendrils of agony

This list isn't even remotely Pitch Long, as it contains precisely 0 pitch spells.  The whole idea for Pitch Long is to play Misdirection and Force of Will (that's where the name "Pitch" came from, you know).