Optimizing Control Slaver in the Fall 2k6 metagame

[Metman]

I suppose a follow up question on Belcher would be, do you find it better than Triskelion.  I know each does there own thing in different ways but using Belcher to control the board seems like a toss of the coin compared to Trike.  On the other hand Belcher can luckily reveal a bunch of business and win faster.  I see also the list you linked to has a Pentavus in it, I'm assuming that's a metagame call.  This list seems to have far more artifacts being used as board control compared to other lists.  It obviously did well finishing 7th, but the board control cards in this deck all cast 3 or more sans the Echoing Truth.  This is in favor over stuff like Fire//Ice, additional bounce, and Tormod's Crypt.  I'm just picking your brain for sake of discussion; this isn't a conventional list but did well.  I'm trying to figure out the logic and thinking behind the decisions for the MD as I'm always looking for ways to improve my list.

[Namingway]

Ok, Gifts is a great card, and your arguments are pretty good, but you have to remember that I'm in a storm/stax meta. Will Gifts work just as well there as it does in the US?
Also, I'm pretty unsure about cutting the 2nd Mindslaver. I feel like I don't draw them as often as I would like when I'm only running 1.

[Metman]

Ok, Gifts is a great card, and your arguments are pretty good, but you have to remember that I'm in a storm/stax meta. Will Gifts work just as well there as it does in the US?
Also, I'm pretty unsure about cutting the 2nd Mindslaver. I feel like I don't draw them as often as I would like when I'm only running 1.

Gifts Ungiven is a really strong card but serves different purposes in Slaver as compared to Gifts.  Obviously it can grab big artifacts to seal the deal with Welder out.  This is comparable to MDG grabbing the Recoup route when it's ready to win on the next turn.  Slaver can also use Gifts to find answers to the current board position unlike Gifts builds which can grab a few different bounce spells or sometimes a Crypt or F//I. 

Gifts Ungiven is also an easy card to board out.  I find myself siding it out when I play against Gifts builds because it's such a huge Drain target.  Besides I find that my SB has better, cheaper cards that fight the matchup.  I also side it out against Long for the same reasons, it's a bit slow in the matchup and I feel that there are better options in the board.

[The Atog Lord]

Gifts Ungiven is also an easy card to board out.  I find myself siding it out when I play against Gifts builds because it's such a huge Drain target.  Besides I find that my SB has better, cheaper cards that fight the matchup.  I also side it out against Long for the same reasons, it's a bit slow in the matchup and I feel that there are better options in the board.

Being "easy to board out" is not a token of strength for a card. Tarpan would be pretty easy to board out of Control Slaver. Ancestral Recall and Tinker are not easy to board out. In fact, if you find yourself boarding out a card frequently against multiple archetypes, then perhaps that card isn't a good option for your deck. Further, the fact that you like Gifts against neither Gifts decks nor against Long decks is an excellent argument for cutting it from the deck.

[warble]

The only reason you don't like Gifts against a Gifts deck is because you aren't resolving it, or you're trying to resolve it once your opponent has a dominant position.  Because you couldn't fight over the early merchant scroll->ancestral you were left in this predicament.  Just try it with 2 misdirections in the maindeck, and you won't find yourself in the losing situation where you have to resolve gifts ungiven without adequate protection.

Trust me, I've been in your predicament before.  I tried everything I could and couldn't beat gifts with the list I linked.  It's the fact that Gifts has that merchant->protection/ancestral that really gives it the edge, so any disruption of that plan is really the best way to fight it.

In a storm/combo meta you should focus on mindslaver; I'd be more inclined to run a 2-mindslaver list with 4 welders and 2-3 maindecked duress in that metagame, which would mean I would probably go for Fact or Fiction over Gifts simply because I'd be losing too many support cards.  The sideboard would also sport 4 Leyline of the Void too...but I'm in America so I don't have to run lists like that.  I can simply use misdirection to even up my game against combo and rely on skill to hopefully swing the match in my favor, while focusing on maindeck strength against Gifts, fast aggro, Dragon, stax and the mirror.

[AJFirst]

Lots of Duresses and lots of Goblin Welders don't mix.

I never ran two slavers. Testing showed it clogged up the hand a lot and didn't pitch to force enough, you know, being an artifact and all. The thing is it has a huge drain target on its head, and you need an active welder and a thirst in order to make it even close to good. One makes it so you can get it if you need it, sometimes you'll draw it and just be able to pitch it because it costs 6, and it's great to tinker for against combo if you can survive to activate it.

All in all I think Slaver needs to change a whole lot to even be considered viable anymore as the other drain archetypes seem to be preforming on a higher level at the moment. I'm not sure why, maybe because some match-ups make welders dead cards causing auto-mulligans, or it has less counters than gifts allowing them to force through my card draw. The win condition is also somewhat weak compared to gifts or bomberman right now. I'm not sure what it is but the deck needs some major renovations.
-AJ

[Metman]

Gifts Ungiven is also an easy card to board out.  I find myself siding it out when I play against Gifts builds because it's such a huge Drain target.  Besides I find that my SB has better, cheaper cards that fight the matchup.  I also side it out against Long for the same reasons, it's a bit slow in the matchup and I feel that there are better options in the board.

Being "easy to board out" is not a token of strength for a card. Tarpan would be pretty easy to board out of Control Slaver. Ancestral Recall and Tinker are not easy to board out. In fact, if you find yourself boarding out a card frequently against multiple archetypes, then perhaps that card isn't a good option for your deck. Further, the fact that you like Gifts against neither Gifts decks nor against Long decks is an excellent argument for cutting it from the deck.

I didn't mean that I boarded it out most of the time.  My meta might be a bit different than yours.  I face more than a fair shares worth of Fish, Stax, Slaver, and Oath which has done well lately around here.  I really like Gifts in these matchups where as Combo and Gifts are few and far between despite their recent success; it's probably due to their difficulty of play.  I leave Gifts in my maindeck in games two and three against 80% of the field.  The matchups I take it out are traditionally tough decks to fight for Slaver; my sideboard has better answers.

The only reason you don't like Gifts against a Gifts deck is because you aren't resolving it, or you're trying to resolve it once your opponent has a dominant position. Because you couldn't fight over the early merchant scroll->ancestral you were left in this predicament. Just try it with 2 misdirections in the maindeck, and you won't find yourself in the losing situation where you have to resolve gifts ungiven without adequate protection.

Trust me, I've been in your predicament before. I tried everything I could and couldn't beat gifts with the list I linked. It's the fact that Gifts has that merchant->protection/ancestral that really gives it the edge, so any disruption of that plan is really the best way to fight it.

In a storm/combo meta you should focus on mindslaver; I'd be more inclined to run a 2-mindslaver list with 4 welders and 2-3 maindecked duress in that metagame, which would mean I would probably go for Fact or Fiction over Gifts simply because I'd be losing too many support cards. The sideboard would also sport 4 Leyline of the Void too...but I'm in America so I don't have to run lists like that. I can simply use misdirection to even up my game against combo and rely on skill to hopefully swing the match in my favor, while focusing on maindeck strength against Gifts, fast aggro, Dragon, stax and the mirror.

Not being able to resolve Gifts is exactly the reason I board it out.  I would rather fight their threats than try to resolve mine.  I can worry about my threats when I can get my game in the later turns.  Slavers toughest matchups IMO are Gifts and Long; their focus is less on countering my threats as compared protecting theirs.  A card like Gifts Ungiven just isn't fast enough in these two matches.  I feel Duress, Blasts, and Crypts are more effective.  On the Misdirection point, I just don't like it in the main.  I've tried it out but feel like I'm really weakening Slavers strengths which are it's ability to adapt and control the board.  There just isn't enough room in the maindeck.  I mentioned it earlier but I face lots of Fish and Stax, both of which MisD are weak against.  I can see it's place in a different meta but not mine.  So, I'm not knocking it, I'm just considering my situation. 

Lots of Duresses and lots of Goblin Welders don't mix.

I never ran two slavers. Testing showed it clogged up the hand a lot and didn't pitch to force enough, you know, being an artifact and all. The thing is it has a huge drain target on its head, and you need an active welder and a thirst in order to make it even close to good. One makes it so you can get it if you need it, sometimes you'll draw it and just be able to pitch it because it costs 6, and it's great to tinker for against combo if you can survive to activate it.

All in all I think Slaver needs to change a whole lot to even be considered viable anymore as the other drain archetypes seem to be preforming on a higher level at the moment. I'm not sure why, maybe because some match-ups make welders dead cards causing auto-mulligans, or it has less counters than gifts allowing them to force through my card draw. The win condition is also somewhat weak compared to gifts or bomberman right now. I'm not sure what it is but the deck needs some major renovations.
-AJ

I think it was FFY that stated it earlier in this post.  Slaver is a metagame deck.  It has its core set of cards and the rest are available for what you expect to face.  It's one of the last decks that uses reactive cards to control the board, but it being built like this makes for a great sideboard, flexibility, and adaptability.

[FlamingCloud]

Cards like FoF, and Gifts are almost always boarded out in CS.  That doesn't mean they aren't good.  In the control matchup for example, something needs to be boarded out for REBs & Crypts.  Does that mean REBs should be maindeck? Probably not, as you won't be happy when you lose to FCG, or random Affinity... Turn 1 FoF is really good against random no FoW deck =P  Generally you use the better overall cards maindeck in an attempt to reduce dead card count, and than remove the least useful cards for the matchup for specific cheaper answers... That doesn't mean FoF/Gifts isn't good.  If CS took away the 3-4 cards that usually get boarded out (mystical, FoF, etc) it would probably have the worst match of any top decks against randomness.

[AJFirst]

Still there are stronger 'Place Holders' than FoF and Gifts. I know I used to love playing with a Recoup in that slot because it pitches to TfK and still is useable, and makes Will, Demonic, Tinker, and Time Walk even more insane obv.

Gifts just doesn't have the set-up it needs in this deck, and in my opinion you're better off playing a(nother) merchant scroll or misdirection (or maindeck REB) because these are cards that contribute to your gameplan, whereas gifts just doesn't do what you're asking most of the time.
-AJ

[Metman]

Still there are stronger 'Place Holders' than FoF and Gifts. I know I used to love playing with a Recoup in that slot because it pitches to TfK and still is useable, and makes Will, Demonic, Tinker, and Time Walk even more insane obv.

Gifts just doesn't have the set-up it needs in this deck, and in my opinion you're better off playing a(nother) merchant scroll or misdirection (or maindeck REB) because these are cards that contribute to your gameplan, whereas gifts just doesn't do what you're asking most of the time.
-AJ

Does any deck rely on the grave throughout the game like Slaver sans Ichorid?  I don't think so, you could make an argument for Stax, Gifts, and Long but none of those play both Welder and Yawg.  Slaver requires heavy tutoring as well since it runs metagame, board control cards in the MD.  Gifts is Demonic Tutor and Entomb tapped together.  For me it's a great fit and has been nothing less than stellar.

[cophos]

Something different:

What would you guys (being more experienced with the archetype than I am) run in a fish (and aggro, aggro/control) heavy meta?
My standard list looks similar to Shay's Richmond list:


5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction

3 Goblin Welder
1 Triskelion
1 Darksteel Colossus

2 Mind S.
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 D Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk

1 Echoing Truth
2 Fire/Ice

SB:
1 Fire/ICe
3 Pyro/Reb
2 RnR
4 CotV (Sphere of Resistance might be better)
2 Pyroclasm (is this any good?)
3 Tormod's Crypt

Old Man?

I used to run 2 Monkeys and 1 Crypt main. But since there's lots of aggro in my environment these cards are simply not needed. (I'm thinking about cutting the last monkey for another anti-aggro card.)
Should I run Vampiric Tutor for an additional *iwin* chance vs. random aggro? Is my robto setup optimal? (DSC was very nice in testing, but vs aggro and hate like Rod a vanilla beater to weld in (pentavus e.g) would certainly be nice.)
What's THE tech vs goblins, fish, friggorid et cetera?
Last but not least Triskelavus seems pretty good, right?

[FlamingCloud]

I don't like a board with 4 chalices in a heavy aggro & aggro/control meta, as they are only good vs control & combo.  Pyroclasm is good, massacre is probably better if your expecting more fish than ss/goblins.  Flametongue Kavu is really good at killing things like salvagers and jotun grunts.  I don't see the point of 3 fire/ice between maindeck and board.  The only reason F&I is ever played maindeck is because it is versatile, in that it pitches to force, kills mages, multiple x/1s, and can timewalk a colossus, I don't think it is a very good sideboard card.  Against x/1s dart/darkblast are both far superiror, and against x/2s pyroclasm, & massacre should be all you need.  While I personally don't like vampiric in CS, if there ever was a meta that was good for maindeck vamp, this would be it(as it is horrible in control metas).  Oath is gonna rip you hard 70% of the time with the way your board is, so I hope thats not part of the aggro/control meta.  I would probably recommend changing the chalices to 3 duress (and an E-bridge) as they as almost as good versus combo, and should atleast give you a chance vs oath.  Finally I don't think you need 3 tormod's crypts 2 should probably be enough.. In your meta(aggro & aggro/control) I would probably go

3 Duress
1 Ensanring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rack & Ruin
2 Pyroclasm or Massacre
1 Lava Dart
2 Tormod's Crpyt
2 Flametongue Kavu

...If you expect alot of the decks to be blue based however I would definetly fine room for a minimum of 2 red elemental blasts (probably at the expense of 1 R&R and 1 duress).

Does any deck rely on the grave throughout the game like Slaver sans Ichorid?  I don't think so, you could make an argument for Stax, Gifts, and Long but none of those play both Welder and Yawg.  Slaver requires heavy tutoring as well since it runs metagame, board control cards in the MD.  Gifts is Demonic Tutor and Entomb tapped together.  For me it's a great fit and has been nothing less than stellar.

I feel that both gifts and combo are far more graveyard/will reliant than CS.  Tormod's Crypt is just so much better against either of those decks than against CS.  Against CS you fissle a single weld if they only have 1 welder.  Against gifts you basically force them to go the colossus plan, or to build their GY twice(or win off a rebuild).  CS could be fine without yawg, neither long or gifts could survive without it however, in CS it is just a random turn 10 win card.  Planar Void hurts both of those decks more aswell... Even leyline, CS can bounce, tfk & weld, and gifts is unlikely to have the mana to do a setup in a single turn.

[Metman]

I also play against a lot of fish in my meta and have found that Razormane Masticore is awesome in this matchup.  Plus it fits your plan of big artifacts yet also very easily played from the hand.  My board to battle fish consists of 3 Blasts (don't always come in but very versitle), 1 Massacre, 1 Darkblast, 1 FtK, and RzMasticore.  It really depends on the fish build but I find that the Masticore and Darkblast come in most often.  With more small creatures like Stormscape Apprentice and Children of Korlis SB cards like Darkblast will be staples in a deck like Slaver.  Ensnaring Bridge is also a card I've found to be effective especially against Oath but have found it somewhat weak against certain types of Fish.  Fish decks that attack your mana base make it tough to use the Bridge effectively. 

If you face artifact aggro the R&Rs are a must.  I've also found that another Welder in the SB is great against Stax and WSAggro.

[forests failed you]

If I were to play Control Slaver, last weekend and split for a Black Lotus I would play the following list:

Here is the list I played

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Mindslaver
1 Triskellion1
1 Sundering Titan
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Echoing truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 GIfts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoths Wll
1 Burning WIsh
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolerian Academy
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 SC Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

Sb
2  REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Stifle
1 SOlem Simmy
3 Duress
1 Fire Ice
1 Tendrils
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Shattering Spree
1 Deep Analysis
1 Hurkyls Recall

Notice the exclusion of Misdirection, because it isn't good.

I also cut down to 24 mana sources, to add a second bounce spell.

[GUnit]

If I were to play Control Slaver, last weekend and split for a Black Lotus I would play the following list:

Here is the list I played

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Mindslaver
1 Triskellion1
1 Sundering Titan
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Echoing truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 GIfts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoths Wll
1 Burning WIsh
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolerian Academy
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 SC Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea

Sb
2  REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Stifle
1 SOlem Simmy
3 Duress
1 Fire Ice
1 Tendrils
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Shattering Spree
1 Deep Analysis
1 Hurkyls Recall

Notice the exclusion of Misdirection, because it isn't good.

I also cut down to 24 mana sources, to add a second bounce spell.

I too have reached that conclusion regarding misdirection. The list I've been playing for the past few weeks  is very similar to this, differences being:

-1 chain of vapour
+1 memory jar

I simply cannot play this deck without memory jar, it's the reason I love the deck so much. Using the topdeck tutors, crucible of worlds and tormod's crypt (in addition to the usual artifact junk) helps to maximize the opportunity for stupid and unfair things to happen during/after a jar turn.

-1 mana vault
+1 wasteland

I made this change primarily to help increase the utility of crucible and so far it's working very well in testing.

I also board a single Jester's Cap because I'm a jerk.

[Special K]

If I were to play Control Slaver, last weekend and split for a Black Lotus I would play the following list:

Here is the list I played

// Lands
    3  Polluted Delta
    1  Bloodstained Mire
    1  Flooded Strand
    2  Underground Sea
    3  Volcanic Island
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Island

// Creatures
    1  Triskelion
    3  Goblin Welder
    1  Pentavus

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Echoing Truth
    2  Merchant Scroll
    2  Gifts Ungiven
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Thirst for Knowledge
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Time Walk
    4  Mana Drain
    2  Misdirection
    1  Tinker
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mindslaver
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Pyroblast
    1  Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Mountain
SB: 1  Pyroblast
SB: 1  Rack and Ruin
SB: 1  Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1  Lava Dart
SB: 1  Fire/Ice
SB: 1  Solemn Simulacrum
SB: 1  Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2  Duress
SB: 3  Flametongue Kavu

Notice the inclusion of Misdirection, because it is good.

[Khahan]

Special K:  2 gifts and only 3 welders?  I still don't  understand the decision to run less than 4 welders when welder is what makes the deck run and having multiples in play makes the deck sick.

And gifts is good. It gives the deck a lot of flexibility. But why 2?

[warble]

Special K:  2 gifts and only 3 welders?  I still don't  understand the decision to run less than 4 welders when welder is what makes the deck run and having multiples in play makes the deck sick.

And gifts is good. It gives the deck a lot of flexibility. But why 2?

Special K's base list is almost identical to the list I T8'd the last SCG with.  The differences are:

Mana
+1 Bloodstained Mire
+2 Island
-1 Volcanic Island
-1 Underground Sea
-1 Library of Alexandria

Creatures/artifacts/spells
+2 Misdirection
+2 Merchant Scroll
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Fire/Ice
-1 Darksteel Colossus
-1 Goblin Charbelcher
-1 Mana Severence
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Rack and Ruin

As you can see, the gameplan employed by this deck is far slower than the gameplan that was requried to T8 in SCG, and the power level of the deck does appear to be reduced.  One thing that is constant between the two lists is the 3 welder 2 gifts setup.  The main problem here is that Gifts doesn't have anything to set up because there's no DsC, no Sev->Belch and no Gifts->3Tutor+Lotus->YawgWill.  I would completely undo the mana base change for NE, and I would be hesitant to say that merchant scroll strengthens the deck enough to cut 3 win conditions from the deck.

Control Slaver has been forced by the metagame to adapt by getting faster and more proactive.  Belcher, DsC, Gifts, and tutors all do that.  Merchant scroll can definitely replace one of the win conditions, however, and for your setup I'd suggest the re-inclusion of Darksteel Colossus and Vampiric Tutor, or Goblin Charbelcher and Mana Severence for Pyroblast and Fire/Ice.  Either way, the list looks at least one win condition short IMHO.

An alternative is to run a crucible strip lock and strengthen the control portion as opposed to the combo portion of CS.  I was 1 game away from T8 the spring SCG that went through boston with a list that ran a crucible strip engine with CS, so I have no right to criticize this gameplan as it is perfectly valid.  My only critique is that I'd rather win.  In vintage, however, that is an extremely important critique.

One other thing, Darksteel Colossus is able to win in the stupidest ways imaginable.  An example would be decking a life player at 5 billion life by recurring DsC discard while slaver locking the guy.  A better example is a turn 1 Tinker->DsC against STAX or Goblins.  Because he's stupid and randomly won games when sideboarded in, DsC is maindecked so that he now...just wins...

[Kard Keeper]

Special K:  2 gifts and only 3 welders?  I still don't  understand the decision to run less than 4 welders when welder is what makes the deck run and having multiples in play makes the deck sick.

And gifts is good. It gives the deck a lot of flexibility. But why 2?

Yes I admit that the good old ash tray maker is a strong part of the CS build however they are not the heart and soul alone. the beauty of slaver is that is can win with or without Welders, and with or without mindslaver itself.  Understandably with a bit more creativity or brute force, but none the less they are not all the deck has to offer.

Alot of decklists over time have opted out of running the 4th welder for many different reasons.  And quite a few of those reasons have to deal with offering a more diverse maindeck in order to provide more solutions to little (or big) problems or just ways to get to what you need.  Im not bashing you for questioning why only 3 welders. Its just that Ive found that that slot oppened up by the removal of the 4th welder has left the deck a little leaner and due to the lack of direct search removal (i.e. cranial extraction etc.. ) currently being run its not as if the welders are in that much jeopardy reguardless of where they are.  Now I know that they will most likely eat a swords or 2 through the course of the game or fall pray to the sharpened dart of the Trike. But another thing that I have noticed is that alot of my opponents play around the 4th welder as if he is in the deck.  There is a bit of misdirection going on becuse they will assume that Im runing the 4th or whatever and yeah I know that when I see the 3rd welder hit the yard that Im not going to randomly see one rip from my topdeck or anything however my opponent doesnt.  Ive had several situations where my opponent held a swords  while my trike gave him a total of 11 points of dammage over a few turns, all due to the fact that he didnt use swords was afraid of the mighty welder that wasnt.

As far as gifts go, I think its a great card with alot of options that most of us all know however Im not sure if I could accept it as more then a 1 of in slaver.  Personally I dont run it, never really cared for it.  I prefer direct draw and mannipulation of library through tutors.  I feel that cards in the hand are better then cards that go straight to the grave because they atleast have the chance of being played twice.  <3 Yawg Will   <3    But any way thats how I feel about that.

[GUnit]

Gifts in CS is pretty insane. Aside from regular uses like gifting for random broken stuff or mana you can set up a crucible-slaver lock or otherwise fish out win conditions in one shot. It forces your opponent to make tough decisions due to the fact that there are many cards that they'd rather see enter your hand than your yard. Although, I think if I were to run two four mana draw spells I'd probably go with the fact + gifts configuration. Fact or fiction is pretty good.

[Special K]

why only 3 welders? because for the most part they are the weakest part of the deck the only time I want them is against fish or stax, against control they don't do much till after thirst resolves putting a slaver in the yard. If anything I want to cut a welder for something more useful but I still need them for the most part. I find myself boarding 2 out against combo or control most of the time as I can't waste my first 3 turns seeing or playing them as that is the biggest uphill battle, after that I can wait all day long to see a welder as the match should be in my favor.

Why 2 gifts? why not? I never used them to put artifacts in the bin at the event unless it was acceleration for a will for the most part they get me more permission/draw spells which is always good and since skeletal scrying needs me to have 3 cards in they yard to be any good that doesn't happen very much in the early game. I could run a fact but gifts just gets better cards for me, more so the cards I want.

@warble 9 cards is not too similiar when talking about slaver as the core is 45-50

[forests failed you]

Lately I've felt that Welder is actually one of the best cards in the deck, as long as you don't get run over in the first few turns and can bring him online.  I'd like to run four, but the problem is that in most match ups welder is redundent.  If you can weld you can win, having two just makes your ratio of answers to threats lower.  Especially against fast combo decks.

Man, Arend's list is really similar to mine:  we both play
 4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of WIll
4 Mana Drain
and all of the Moxes

What a copy cat!!!

@ Arend:  How did you feel about the FTK in the board?  Was there a particular match up where you wanted these dudes?  Had you considered playing Fire Imp instead?  Really the only instance I can think of where Imp isn't better for a mana less is against Jotun Grunt, Negator, or Old man of the Sea.

[Special K]

OMG you run Yawgmoth's Will, QIUT STEALING MY TECH. lol

they were useless all day long as I never even cast any of them Fire Imp possibly is better for mana cost in most cases but since there is UW with grunt and aggro shop in toronto I'll probably stick with FTK for now

[forests failed you]

You know what would really help your deck out?  If you traded for my two extra foil asian FTKs.... So Spicy. 

IMO the Slaver aggro plan is as follows:

FTK < Fire Imp < Foil Japanese FTK

Welder seems so good right now.  Inevitability in every match up is so sauce.  If I were a slightly worse player I would probably play four in the MD, and the bitch all day about how I went 7-2 and missed top eight because I had 1/1 idiots clogging up my hand. 

[Special K]

maybe we could work something out for the cash ya own me for the split

This post violates Rule 6, Prohibited Action (private message).  Please use the private message feature in the future.  -DA

[Evenpence]

Is Fire Imp slang for something?  I can't find it on gatherer.  I probably sound like a noob.

[Dominik]

Is Fire Imp slang for something?  I can't find it on gatherer.  I probably sound like a noob.

You're welcome.

[Special K]

Is Fire Imp slang for something?  I can't find it on gatherer.  I probably sound like a noob.

"Fire Imp"
Info:  Color = Red       Type = Creature - Imp        Cost = 2R       Edition =  Portal (PT)

Errata:  2/1. ; When Fire Imp comes into play from your hand, it deals 2 damage to any one creature.  (If you're the only player with creatures, Fire Imp deals 2 damage to one of your creatures.)

All tournament formats have banned this card because it only appears in Portal.

When played under non-Portal rules, the text should be read as "When Fire Imp comes into play, if you played it from your hand, it deals 2 damage to target creature." [D'Angelo 2000/06/05]

Note - This card had no creature type.  If played with non-Portal cards, it should be played as creature type Imp. [D'Angelo 2000/06/05]

I'm shocked you don't know about this card it could be a possible addition to whatever uba-crap decklist that is currently be tested or what not.

Welder seems so good right now.  Inevitability in every match up is so sauce.  If I were a slightly worse player I would probably play four in the MD, and the bitch all day about how I went 7-2 and missed top eight because I had 1/1 idiots clogging up my hand.

This is why I have cut shaman and crux from my list as most cases I would rather be countering my opponents spells and resolving my broken spells, also the reason I board out 2 welders against combo and most control although most cases I want shamans more then welders but the deck needs welders to sometimes win. Most of the time I wish I was boarding phids or something against control as they do something useful other then pitch

[Evenpence]

I'm shocked you don't know about this card it could be a possible addition to whatever uba-crap decklist that is currently be tested or what not.

I actually thought Fire Imp was just what it was.  I remember playing with it way back in the day particularly because of his nose.  I was just shocked that I couldn't find it on Gatherer.

Anyway, Uba-crap has better options than this guy.  He's 2R.  The only spell I'd consider playing that's 2R is Wheel of Fortune, although with the new manabase, that's more doable than ever, so it'll probably be making a comeback.

[forests failed you]

I'm shocked you don't know about this card it could be a possible addition to whatever uba-crap decklist that is currently be tested or what not.

I actually thought Fire Imp was just what it was.  I remember playing with it way back in the day particularly because of his nose.  I was just shocked that I couldn't find it on Gatherer.

Anyway, Uba-crap has better options than this guy.  He's 2R.  The only spell I'd consider playing that's 2R is Wheel of Fortune, although with the new manabase, that's more doable than ever, so it'll probably be making a comeback.

Sarcasm Colby, he was using SARCASM.