WUb Fish: Deck Discussion

[Everrid1234]

Regarding Vamp Tutor I'm with Duressed here.
He is really good. Of course it's card disadvantage and lifeloss but getting a Bob or Kataki when you face Stax, or a Null Rod vs. Combo is extremely helpful and not a situation you face rarely. It can also give you a Strip Mine or the desperately needed Jitte when you face aggro.

It has so many advantages (shuffles the library). IMO Demonic Tutor is just too slow. It's no surprising eot action, you tap out, you can be duress for what you took and it costs too much for this low mana curve. Ok, maybe it's playable with 5 moxen.
My thoughts about Thoughtseize: It's not really playable as a more then 2-of imo because of Confidant. Yes, I promoted Vamp which also brings lifeloss, but I think since there is Duress you should just play Duress. I play 1 Thoughtseize to be able to disrupt after Extirpate on Duress or if I have seen something like Sundering Titan via Duress and want to take it out.
But since these situations are really rare I will maybe go down to 0 Thoughtseize. I mean, if you face Gro-a-Tog you never take the Dryad. You take draw, Fastbond or tutoring. Dryads can be stp'ed later. The only creatures I would like to take out are Confidant, Welder and Sundering Titan. Everything else you can handle. Of course not everytime but I think the lifeloss makes Fish not able to play more then 2 Thoughtseizes Main.

I think Fish is perfect with Anc, 4 BS and the 2 tutors. It's such a cool deck, being able to hate out any deck while beating so nicely.

Again about the basic lands: Of course it sucks facing a Moon Magus, but how often did you fetch for island? I never wanted to fetch for an island. You won't fetch for Island in the beginning because you need 3 colors and me for myself I play 5 Strip-effects and never less. Against which decks would you like to have a basic island in the deck? Fish? Stax? TMWA-Magus? I tested this deck so often and i never missed the island, really. Against Magus decks a basic Island won't help me much (waiting for Brainstorm, Mystical to find the E. Truth is not realistic, especially when you can't crack Fetchies after a BS. Ok you have moxen but he plays Shaman), against Stax I desperately need Kataki or Null Rod 2nd Turn and never would crack for Island since i also need 3 colors. Against Fish i also need 3 colors very fast...

Call me noob but I never experienced a situation where i wanted to fetch for Island. My opponents didnt seem to play too bad....

Aven Mindcensors: They don't really convince me. When they see action most of the tutoring has already happened. So I keep 2 in my main deck because they are good of course hindering some Will-tutoring action but cc3 is just a bit too expensive for their purpose.... Playing them really effectively would mean playing all off-color moxen and Fish doesn't want this. I don't know in which fish deck you saw them going broken....?

[The Duressed]

As long as the GAT player doesn't plop down the turn 1 Fastbond, I usually enjoy seeing Aven Mindcensor. But if you don't like him, it's your call. If the testing in your meta doesn't warrant his inclusion, then by all means, don't play him. I've been retelling my personal experiences and obviously my meta will be at least slightly different from yours. It's your deck, and your call.

On to different topic: Lorwyn is coming into the fold. With that will probably be the 9-sphere Stax decks. Is this reason enough to toss the Null Rods back in? What do you think?

[Everrid1234]

Since Kataki is the best against Sphere-decks i would recommend to have 4 (maybe 2 main, 2 side) and maybe 3 Null Rod (SB at least).
Energy Flux costs 4 vs these decks (3-5 i would say) so Energy Flux is unplayable and Kataki slips under Thorn.

About Mindcensor: Of course, its all about the meta.

My current deck (regarding that I face some Tendrils/ETW-decks, which makes Null Rod good):
Mana base is tight, but i try to have a high density of threats.

4 Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki

3 on-color-Moxen
1 Black Lotus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
3 Daze
3 Null Rod
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Mystical
1 Vampiric

3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void (I leave this out vs. YawgWill-dependant decks like tendrils because its not worth mulliganing for this card. Jotuns have to do the job. Only against Ichorid and Flash, bacuse chances are too small against these without the Leyline)
1 Thread of Disloyalty
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator (vs. slower Controldecks....survives Pyroclasm)
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Swords to Pl
2 Jitte
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant
1 Thoughtseize


EDIT: Deck modified

[The Duressed]

Since you don't like Thoughtseize so much, why do you still run 1? Why not just run 4 Duress? Duressing, seeing a creature that needs to go away, then tutoring for a thoughtseize seems like such a miserable play, and yet I can't think of any reason besides that to run 3-1, from someone who hates Thoughtseize anyway. I would only run it as Duress #5 and 6, at most. But there seems to be no reason to run it as Duress #4 when you can play 4 Duress.

Just curious... sorry if I seem condescending or something. I don't mean to be.

[Everrid1234]

As I wrote I think about playing 0 Thoughtseizes. The only benefits would be randomly taking out Confi/Welder 1st turn, having acces to a duress-effect after extirpate on Duress or taking maybe a Ringleader out while you face an Aether Vial on 3.
But since this is extremely random and there is life -2 and Misdirection existing.... I leave 1 in for now because it feels so techy

What's your opinion on the card?

Maybe one could free some SB space for more duress-effects. I think 5-6 effects (SB included) is a good number.

[The Duressed]

Randomly winning 1 game out of 5000 wouldn't make it techy, it would just be randomly good in very rare situations. I don't disagree that if I were to choose 4 duress effects to run, all for of them would be Duress (no Therapy or Thoughtseize). If i were to go up to 6, I'd run 4 Duress and 2 Seize.

It just doesn't seem right to run 3-1. I'd opt for more consistency, especially since there's no change in casting cost.

I haven't exactly been stalking the Stax forums, so I don't know: What are the Stax decks cutting for the +4 spheres?

[Everrid1234]

Does anyone have a nice idea what UWb could pack against Urphid?
I think Urphid has an extremely nice toolbox vs Fish in the SB, so we maybe just lose in 80% of all games.

Since Confidant is necessary to win against this deck in the long run and he plays so much removal (FTKavu, Fire-Ice, Sudden Shock, REB; Pyroblast) there is only a jitte-equipped Grunt or a luckily protected Confidant there to win the game.....

My ideas: Shadowmage Infiltrator (ok, we play T1, i know) who survives 2 damage, Grunts, Jitte, lots of Duress/Thoughtseize, Swords and E. Truth against Magus and Ophidian.

I think it is overall a bad matchup.

[centurion8]

Does anyone have a nice idea what UWb could pack against Urphid?
I think Urphid has an extremely nice toolbox vs Fish in the SB, so we maybe just lose in 80% of all games.

Since Confidant is necessary to win against this deck in the long run and he plays so much removal (FTKavu, Fire-Ice, Sudden Shock, REB; Pyroblast) there is only a jitte-equipped Grunt or a luckily protected Confidant there to win the game.....

My ideas: Shadowmage Infiltrator (ok, we play T1, i know) who survives 2 damage, Grunts, Jitte, lots of Duress/Thoughtseize, Swords and E. Truth against Magus and Ophidian.

I think it is overall a bad matchup.

There are always going to be bad match-ups.  Meta-gaming to beat one deck (that isn't the most prevalent, dominating deck in the format at least) seems like a weak option.  Also, Shadowmage has been too slow in my legacy testing of WUb fish, and seems even worse in vintage.

I ran the deck today playing a 3 duress 2 thoughtseize make-up at RIW's mox ruby tourney in michigan to good results.  Lost to a raw-dogged Balance to clear my board and hand (FoW w/ no pitch spell in hand, him w/ 0 cards in hand  ) in game 3 of top four.  Took a creature a couple times w/ thoughtseize, making me happy about the 3/2 breakdown.

[Everrid1234]

You're right, a deck can't win vs everything in >50% of all games.
Adding such things like Sword of Fire and Ice is ridiculous because it would just improve this kind of matchup and would be an overall worse card compared to the awesome Jitte.
For me UWb is the best deck existing, it replaces the feeling i had a few years ago when playing 4cKeeper: Having everything under control with answers to everything in the maindeck. The deck is difficult to hate while being able to hate out any deck very well.

[The Duressed]

So, ladies and gents, what seems to be the prognosis on this deck vs. Workshop Aggro? It seems like it could be reasonable, with a full suite of Swords to Plowshares and Katakis. The issue that i take is that we have no direct artifact destruction. Their maindeck equipment is totally ridiculous. Any ideas to take care of equipment? I've seen Seals of Cleansing in some boards, so that may be our answer.

[rkmancer]

So, ladies and gents, what seems to be the prognosis on this deck vs. Workshop Aggro? It seems like it could be reasonable, with a full suite of Swords to Plowshares and Katakis. The issue that i take is that we have no direct artifact destruction. Their maindeck equipment is totally ridiculous. Any ideas to take care of equipment? I've seen Seals of Cleansing in some boards, so that may be our answer.

I think commonly fish deck have 3 maindeck Null Rod and it's enough to stop mega kill by equipment. .

[The Duressed]

Well, it looks like the metagame in general is tending towards a creature-based kill of some kind. Quirion Dryads, Tarmogoyfs, Empty the Warrens tokens, even Phyrexian Dreadnoughts. That being the case, it definitely seems like it's time to go up to as many as 3 Swords to Plowshares main. Crazy, I know. But it's becoming a card that you simply are required to have at least once per game. Bonus points: Swords to Plowshares is white, so Sword of Fire and Ice doesn't protect the creature! Woohoo! 

I also don't know how strong Aven Mindcensor is anymore. In some matchups it can be fine, in some it can be great, and in some it's a 2/1 for {W}. I very much feel that a guy like Waterfront Bouncer could take Mindcensor's place. The Mindcensor count is dwindling, and I won't at all be surprised to see them disappear from fish decks altogether. My URBana list doesn't ever seem to wish any of its creatures were Aven Mindcensors.

Also, depending on the number of tutors you choose to run, a singleton Echoing Truth main could be pretty amazing.

Just a few thoughts.

[Everrid1234]

Hm i think the answer to your question about the Stax/Equipment matchup is my decklist You have 3 Disenchant-effect in the SB. And I still think Energy Flux is not good with all these spheres so there is only Kataki remaining (hoping to prevent Barbarian Ring's threshold by Jotun Grunt....)
Mindcensor: It's often not possible to push them out fast enough and in the right time. I also think about taking them out completely. Why do you think they are becoming worse? Because the meta shifts towards Stax?

Then maybe -2 Aven +1 Tundra/Island + Kataki
                or-2 Aven +Kataki + Jotun

If there was a cc1 or cc2 creature which is worth it being packed in the deck I would say 2 Grunts and 2 Kataki is enough. But there is none.


If the game runs well the Mindcensors can seal the game completely, making tutors very bad. They tend to be a "win more" card.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

I thought that mindcensors are bad from the start, but it wasn't as apparent, because it's so much fun when you get to stifle a fetch once or be as lucky as nullifying a tutor even.
What is the case though, IMO, is that most of the times, mindcensor just turns scrolls into sorcery impulses. Yes, I know that you can't take lotus.
What I'm trying to say is: Mindcensor never was TEH hoser that a 3 mana commitment should be. Sometimes it buys a bit of time, sometimes it's even good. But seldom very good.
With the metagame shift currently in process, it becomes basically a 3 mana chump block.
My opinion on the card.

[The Duressed]

Censor wasn't always bad. It was at its best when everybody and their dog was playing Flash, and also good against the ritual-based storm combo decks. Now, however, people just don't need to search their decks as much. There are a ton of cheap, unrestricted, amazing draw spells in the format, and now that's how the decks are racking up the +1/+1 counters. Stifling a land was never Aven Mindcensor's forte, even though people wanted it to be (I know I thought I was running like 9 stifles for a while, then I realized that, well, I wasn't).

As for what to replace the Mindcensor with, I'd probably go with Waterfront Bouncers. Those guys are really good in the format right now. Juggernauts, Dryads, Darksteel Colossi, Platz, even a Goblin Welder... The format is dominated by the 1-creature kill.

[Everrid1234]

Yes, the Bouncers are a nice idea....especially combinded with Confidant. They clear the way from blockers, make Meddling even stronger.
But for me Bouncer is more a sideboard card. Especially without Confidant he does nearly nothing. Too slow against Flash.
He is good vs. Dryads and Colossus, or Atog. But Welder? Hm. Not really. Juggernaut? Also not really. Only when you can drop Meddlingnthe same turn.

I would't say Mindcensor is crap. He is just not THAT good but he improves the matchups against problematic decks and these decks are mostly slower control-decks with lots of tutors (getting fire/ice, or playing Tinker, search Tinker via Mystical etc.) Against these he is nice (but slow, facing Mana Drain).
Or against combodecks, like you said. He is in some way the Orim's Chant which isn't in the sideboards anymore. Of course he is a creature and dies to Massacre, Thrashing Wumpus, Darkblast and something but he is like Orim's Chant because in the Will-turns the tutors in the grave are most of the time necessary to win for the combo-player.

[The Duressed]

First of all, Juggernaut is ridiculous if you can't find a Jotun Grunt. That guy totally smashes our face.

I'm not really sure what to do with that slot at this point. Even as I write this, I've come up with 4 or 5 ideas that I've deleted. Among them, in no particular order:
1) Leave the Censors in
2) +1 Grunt, +1 Kataki
3) Waterfront bouncer
4) A non-creature spell of some kind (More Duresses or Thoughtseizes, Spell Snare, Null Rod...)
5) Give up and try again later

For now, I'll probably go with number 5  But let's keep throwing ideas out there, and try to figure something out.

[hauntedechos]

Greetings Vintage Fish players.

I wanted to revive this thread, as Lorwynn has provided some new avenues for players to explore.  As a U/W/B player, I feel that we can take the added Duress effects in.  How many ? I'm not sure.  I feel this has a direct relation to the hits we take from Bob flips.

We have more to discuss than that dear readers, we have to decide how to deal with Eric's predicted Shop deck resurgence.  Kataki has been tested and pulled weight, however, loses to fanatics: and our Duress won't snag the fanatics.

Daze vs spell snare? thoughts, concerns?

Finally, how do we feel about U/W/B as a whole in the current meta?  If you were going to rock u/w/b Fish at a tourny tomorrow, what would you pack?

I'll leave that with you all while I continue to contemplate these issues myself.

cheers
mike

[Everrid1234]

Well, since Kataki is great you need something to protext him from Mogg, or maybe Grim Lavamancer.
Maybe put a Darkblast in the SB? It lets you get rid of most of his creatures. Once Kataki is dropped, Fanatic is a must-counter.
If you face lots of Shop-aggro you will maybe add 2 Energy Flux to the SB, paired with Disenchant-effects.

[Guli]

Hi, I would like to point out some stuff.

Without tutors the following decks will not win the game the way they naturally do:

Flash
Grim Long
Gush (merchant scroll) (gat and storm both affected)
Combo decks in general that run 1-2 win conditions and they need to search and dig for the win.

Decks that will feel Aven's presence but nothing game breaking

Oath
Most fish versions
Dragon
Goblins (matron)
Decks that use Tinker (for example Control Slaver)
 
Decks that are not affected by Aven:

Ichorid
Most Shop decks

I can't say that i made a quality analysis but i described how Aven is not good in every meta just like Kataki isn't in every meta. Also nobody should run 4 aven in a deck. He costs 3 mana. 3 is a good number, i would accept 2 as well. I would run 4 Kataki thought even if he is a legend. He is cheaper an more important (vs stax) if we compare him with Aven (vs flash). The thing is Kataki can come around turn 1-2 but aven doesn't always show up that early. Turn 1 Lotus with aven is always nice but that doesn't happen often.

If indeed your meta is shifting towards more stax (spheres) it is only natural that aven should be replaced by Kataki. Same way Yixlid Jailer would see more play if ichorid got more popular.

I would like to ask to discuss a bit about the cards that earned their slots and will be sitting at those slots a long time (untill something better gets printed)

1 Recall
1 Walk
4 Force of Will
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
22 sources for mana (with or without strip effects+moxes added)

that leaves 20 slots (and u want to add additional creatures but these will be the meta creatures, how many? about 7-8)


Natural picks:

Duress or/and Thoughtseize
2-3 tutors
StP
Echo Truth
Kataki
Aven
Bouncer
Grunt
Ninja
Korlis
Lions/isamaru
Daze
Rod
Chalice
Spell Snare

my 2 cents

[uwfish2000]

This is my current list.

Creature(16):
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, Wars Wage
3 Aven Mindcencor

Instant(14):
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Sword to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorcery(4):
3 Duress
1 Time Walk

Enchantment(3):
3 Oblivion Ring

Artifact(5):
2 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet

Land(17):
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Stripmine
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

SideBoard (15):
4 Leyline of The Void
1 Sword to Plowshares
2 Energy Flux
4 Extirpate
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Echoing Truth

I run Oblivion Ring because i hate chalice at 2. It can remove non-land permanent and it's an Enchantment.

I think Thoughtseize would replace duress now. Thoughtseize can discard creature card like Dryad,Atog and many more.

By the way, versus GAT, you cast Thoughtseize. in opponent hands has Polluted Delta, Quirion Dryad, Psychatog, Brainstorm, underground sea, Gush, Force of Will. Which card you choose to discard?

[Everrid1234]

Oblivion Ring: Eh, as a sideboard card maybe. You play no Wastelands, thats a big big fault. You play mana denial (Kataki, Null Rod) but no Wastelands....that doesn't fit.
Discard: Take the FoW. So you have a higher possibility to counter/Discard a later-coming Fastbond/Ancestral.

Edit: I modified my current list.

Aven is not out completely. In maybe 50 games there were 1-2 games in which i liked seeing them. They don't come out fast and timed enough, they have toughness 1 and they do damage by Confi. So -2 Aven +Jotun + Kataki. 3 Jotun is much but i dont know what would fit better. He gives tempo and if my Confis go too high on damage i can Sword a Grunt to live longer. 3 seems definitely the maximum.
My SB was madified, too.

[hauntedechos]

Currently I've been reading a trend of creature usage upped, and shop decks on the rise.  9sphere effects has basicly given birth to this, as we all knew it would.

That being said, it seems that U/W/B fish needs to pack Kataki for sure, while I'm not sold on Null Rod.  Null Rod was the basic answer to artifacts requiring you to tap them, in a meta that was slower.  Versus stax it was a good combo with Kataki, because moxen couldn't pay for themselves, while they looked for an answer to your kataki.  In the end I think this meta is still too fast for Null Rod, beyond that, freeing up 3 slots main has been big for me.

I have to agree to the underwhelming effect of Aven, versus the hope we had in him.  Personaly, I agree that his 3cc is more hurt from Bob, and that I'd rather look for another creature that can have an effect on the board while costing less.

I personally like 2 Thoughtseize.  In our current meta, with a tonne of creatures, it's nice to have that versatility.  I wouldn't run 4 of them, because of Bob, but what if Bob was ninja of the deep hours? at that point I would run 8 Duress effects, and feel good about it all day long.  R/B TMWA use bloofiredwarf and Mogg in the SB, Shop decks are runnin Moggs main, and 3/4 of our creature base has a toughness of 1.  Would Ninja's conditional draw effect be justified by his extra point of toughness?  I don't have a final thought on that matter, so it's really open to discussion of course.

I'm in the process of doing a lot of testing, however I have a build that I'm almost happy with:

4Dark Conf.
4Meddling Mage
3Jotun Grunt
2Kataki
2Waterfront Bouncers 15

4Force
3spellsnare/Daze
4Duress
2Thoughseize
2echoing truth
1Stp 33

3moxen
1Black lotus 37

4Brainstorm
1Vamp Tutor
1Ancestral
1Timewalk

My thoughts on Waterfront bouncers is thus, if the creature density rises, then so must our answers to them.  Also, in the event that you are drawing crap, then the added card put into your hand by Bob, can easily go to Bouncers effect, which then helps fuel the yard for Jotun earlier.  Is this process going to happen as fast as Flash wins? no of course not, but you might as well have a deck that plays nice with itself (that sounds terrible I know)  6 Duress effects is nice for me.  I tend to try and play aggressivly, and haveing more hand disruption makes me feel better about Fish' weak area, lack of counters that matter.  On that topic, I'm testing spell snares over Daze.  My current thoughts are, they are narrow, and only very  effective against Flash, and Gat, this could change however.

Something I miss, is the old Savanah / Isammaru clock.  It was also easy to get them out while you have a Sphere of Res on the table, because of the W casting cost.  Now with 9 effects, if they drop a thorn turn one, it would be nice to laugh and drop a lion / dog and pass the turn.  Anythoughts on the viability of Lions in today's meta?  it would seem natural that we would  try and speed up the clock of this deck by dropping casting costs.

How about Thorns?  could we pack them as well?  I realize we don't have shops to power out our spells, but at least the creatures are unaffected.

I don't care for oblivion ring.  With the sphere's running around as they are, adding more 3cc cards, is asking for it.  I was thinking about them as well, in conjunction with Meddling Mages "lock out" feeling, but in the end, the CC keeps me from it.  I'm positive that there has to be a better card for you to use, for what you are trying to accomplish.  If sphere's go away in popularity, then I would say is has more potential to be at least a SB card.  If it had the following additional text "all spells with the same name as the card removed from game cannot be played" then I'd try and make it work.

Just some more input into U/W/B Fish

cheers
Mike

[Everrid1234]

Thorn: Never. We play too many noncreature spells....
IMO the meta is not too fast for Null Rod, it still has its value. You NEED some artifact mana hate and the only other possibility is Chalice. And Chalice has to be on the starting hand to be really effective. Since you often won't have this case it's not option for me. Of course its nice vs. Flash, it helps a lot when YawgWill resolves but Null Rod just does more. Playing a Duress 1st turn and then drop the Rod is good. You won't get an artifact hate which is this good for cheaper then 2cc.
Of course, dropping Chalice and Duress 1st turn and Confidant 2nd turn is nicer, but for Chalice you need luck and I don't like this. Chalice on 1 is no option because we play Duress.

Rod helps vs fat equipment, is good in any turn, is crazy against stax in combination with Kataki (hoping they don't get the lava dart fast enough). Chalice doesn' help here much except turn 1. Null Rod+Kataki+5 Strips lets you win against Stax/AggroStax. Chalice+Kataki+less Strips will let you lose; it's such a hard matchup.
I don't say that you can objectively say which card is better, they have both advantages and disadvantages, but for me it's the Rod. Once Rod is dropped the whole game changes and that is what Fish wants. Manipulating the game as severe as possible while playing cheap cards.

I cut Aven now and appreciate each comment about my current decklist on the top of this page.

I think Ninja is out of the discussion because its not so nice with confidant and we have lots of creatures in the meta.

I don't like Spell Snare, you have to leave blue open and in the first turns where the cards are played that Spell Snare targets (Merchant, Oath, Demonic, Flash, Mana Drain, Tarmo, Confi) you just won't have the mana open because you tap yout during the first 2 turns. But try it, these are my thoughts.

Why 2 Echoing? I think they are good but STP is still better. Waterbront Bouncer is slower and will often be a dead card imo. Without Confidant feeding it its not good.

[hauntedechos]

@ Everrid1234:

I agree that snare is too narrow, and unlike Daze, costs something.  I was thinking vs. Flash post turn 3.  However, this is unreasonable thinking, as Fish will have a hard time even getting to turn 3.  So Daze, again, is back in x3.

I like your reasoning on Null Rod, and I will slide them back in to test again.  Of course no one can deni the Kataki Null Rod vs. artifact based decks.  Your reasoning on Chalice is solid, it's been discussed before.  However, you are saying that turn 1 Duress followed by turn 2 Null rod is somehow more likely than running 4 Chalice and getting one in the opening hand, this I don't fully understand based on numbers.  I agree that after turn 1 Chalice' ability to stop moxen etc, is nullified.  Null Rod, when dropped has the lasting effect.  So ultimatly, w/o testing, I'm going to agree that 3 Null Rods are a good choice in our developing meta.  In my local meta, there aren't very many stax decks, or shop decks for that matter, so the need for Null Rod is diminished in this respect.  To be honest, thoes slots would really be better served by 3 Extirpates, but that is a local meta call.  On the American look on Magic, 3 Null Rods seems to be a wise choice.

My actual thought, was to replace the Confidants with Ninjas.  The reasoning behind it was, A) it's tougher and thus the Stax player has to flashback the Lava dart, and thus down a mountain (furthering the mana denial theme, at leas against this card in Stax) and B) this means we can play more Thoughtseize, because the bob flip factor is now out.  The question was, is the trickyness of getting a reliable draw off ninja, and it's additional toughness justification enough to replace a card that garuntees you a card per turn, so long as it doesn't get nailed? 

Waterfront bouncer, has better synergy with Confidant, because of the garunteed draw he produces, it's not so solid in conjunction with Ninjas however.  So the use of Ninja's over Bob, would weaken the case, somewhat, for Waterfronts.  Waterfront's themselves, fall victim to the same hate that bob's do: Moggs, bloodfire dwarf and lava darts etc.  This also prompted me to look deeper at the problem with our creature base: and it IS a problem.

Adressing this issue, Meandeck's Fish used Kira's.  I was wondering if this creature is a viable on today.  It flies, and counters the first spell played on your creatures.  Seems better than Aven to me, the issue is the 1UU casting of the thing...no ahenkayew!  This is however something I'd love some feedback on guys.

2 echoing main, because of all the things it answers.  Ramped Dryad, 'zerked Tog, ETW, Multiple spheres etc.  Yes I realise that Swords is MUCH better in terms of removal, but Truth has more flexability, in that it can answer more than just beaters.  My side sees 2 more swords and an additional truth (admittedly excessive), but I really want to construct the Main as solid as possible to give my game 1 the best chance I can, this is done through versatility, not just raw power of cards.

more thoughts are awesome, let's keep the thread going guys.

cheers
Mike

[Everrid1234]

Just short comment (since nothing overwhelmingly new has come up in my mind ):

Of course turn 1 Duress turn 2 Rod is not more probable than turn 1 Duress and Chalice. These were just examples. Another argument against Chalice is that you need it turn 1, so it should be a 4-of. Noll Rod can easily be a 3-of.
Ninjas: So do you face lots of Stax or not? If yes, play Null rod But I would rather pack in Shadowmages then Ninjas since they are even tougher and more unlikely to be blocked. Never cut the Confidants. They are the core card of Fish imo. There is no better 1st turn play then Land Mox Confi with a Daze on hand. But Lava Dart su**s.

The problem about bouncer is that he is a bit narrow, means, he is only good against a few deck. StP is often much better. You want to bounce Dryad, Tidespout, Oath's angels, Darksteel, a pumped Atog. That's all. Other creatures are recastable and so StP is just better. Ok, with Confi, the Waterfront is ok, but you don't want too much synergies in the deck because dependant cards make the deck fragile.

Kiara is a cool idea... But i am not sure how much she will really help. She does nothing on herself and hinders me from bouncing or StPing my own Confidants in the lategame. And she cant help a lot by blocking or getting rid of Goyfs. I think the negative sides overwhelm the positive ones. To survive longer vs. Aggro i put a 4th Jotun Grunt in the SB, to buy time for Jitte coming. He also weakens Goyfs. With 4 Grunts you have a good possibility for an early blocker (around turn 3-5) while being able to sacrife a Grunt with more then 2 counters to just drop the next Grunt. I don't know what Fish would do without Grunt, he is just awesome.

Deck modified.
What's your current list?

[Arsenal]

Having been a big fan of Fish decks (Legacy and Vintage), especially in the build that hauntedechoes posted, I can see his need for Waterfront Bouncers.  It ups the blue card count (which is already mildly low to support 4x FoW), can attack if it really needed to (every point helps in Fish), keeps threats off the board at no life gain to your opponent (which can be the deciding factor in some games), and as you mentioned, has excellent synergy with Confidant (which will almost ALWAYS be out and active when you play Bouncer).  For his particular build, I like Bouncer alot. 

[Everrid1234]

I don't understand why Confi will nearly always be out when you have Bouncer out. There is no connection. Aggro plays removal itself, and the possibility exists, that your Confi-Waterfront combination gets killied by something like Fire-Ice. Darkblast will be even stronger against the Deck (I would to pack Darkblasts against Fish, to get rid of the Confidants).
But he is not bad, i also thought about putting 1 in the SB.
BTW, does anyone have comments on my list or an idea what to side in against controldeck with mass removal?

[Arsenal]

Because in most Fish decks, Confidant is the backbone.  He typically is the first creature you want to get on-line, and he's one of the creatures you'd actually want to protect if it really came down to it.  That's why I say that he'll almost always be around by the time you lay down your secondary creatures, like Bouncer.  How do you typically play Confidant? Mid-late game?  If so, why?  And if you let him die so easily and not protect him, what deeper strategies does that allow you?

[The Duressed]

Everrid, what kinds of mass-removal are you referring to? Any cards in particular?