Attempting the impossible: Reviving shop aggro

[yespuhyren]

*FOR CURIOSITY PURPOSES, I'M ACTUALLY POSTING THIS ON TMD AND SCG.  I'M CURIOUS WHAT THE RESPONSES WILL BE LIKE FROM BOTH SITES, AS TO WHICH HAS MORE GOOD HELP AND USEFUL CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

So I looked through all my stuff, and I realized....I have 4 Alpha Juggs.  I llike my juggs.  Juggs doesn't win tourneys....much...YET!  So for the last few years I have wanted to make shop aggro viable, and I finally have a list I might actually be able to work with and get me somewhere.  I will post it below with some explanations:

Blitzkrieg 2.0

// Lands
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    6  Mountain
    4  Mishra's Factory
    2  Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Gorilla Shaman (1)
    4  Juggernaut
    4  Solemn Simulacrum

// Spells
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Fire/Ice
    4  Chalice of the Void
    3  Sword of Fire and Ice
    2  Umezawa's Jitte
    4  Jester's Cap
    1  Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Viashino Heretic
SB: 4  Slice and Dice

So, lets go through this:

Basic lock pieces:

4x Chalice of the Void
1x Trinisphere

I really feel that those cards are absolutely awesome, and generally Chalice should be played at 0 or 2 to fully get its maximum potential.  Trinisphere is just awesome.

Lands:  There are no wastes. 6 Basics to fetch out, 4 Factories over wastes.  Why?  Factories swing in.  This deck want to deal LOTS of damage.  This really helps.  I really like Ancient Tombs as they speed stuff out faster and help pay equips on Jitte/Sword, as well as helps shaman blow stuff up.

Utility Creatures:

4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Goblin Welder

I have always like lots of shamans.  They are great at blowing stuff up, and having so many basics and the like help at nuking just about anything.  It is also more creatures to beat with equips, and any creatures to put some counters on Jitte is nuts.  It really doesn't matter what you put a Jitte on.  The thing is probably the most unfair equipment, and is just ridiculous.  Every swing alone means storm combo needs 2 more spells to kill you.  It also means against decks without creatures every swing after the first is +4/+4.

4x Juggs
4x Solemn

Solemn helps to fetch out the 6 basics, and is just an awesome utility man.  Juggs is just the epitome of shop aggro beefiness.  Throw a Sword on either and they are just nuts.  Actually, put a sword or Jitte on anything and its nuts.

Equips:

3x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Just in my opinion hands down the best two equips in any aggro deck (excluding Skullclamp in some combo decks like Kobolds or Ravager)  Both are just insanely nuts.

Utility:

4x Jester's Cap
4x Fire/Ice

Jester's Caps basically help in all the matchups where Fire/Ice is not insane.  Fire/Ice seems to help in every match where Jester's Cap isn't insane. 

Cap is really good vs: Gifts/Oath/Combo/CS
Fire/Ice is really good vs: Fish/SS/Bomberman/CS/Ichorid

And of course the Sideboard:

4x Tormod's Crypt - Ichorid, Combo, Gifts, etc.  Just side out accordingly depending on the matchup

3x Viashino Heretic - Against Stax.  This thing doesn't have crucibles, which hurts, but having 4 shaman/4 welder and 4 Fire/Ice against their welders helps.

4x Pyrostatic Pillar - Against any deck that wants storm.  Even if they don't kill themselver, storming for 5/6 for 12 warrens tokens drastically reduces their life.  I leave the rest of the damage up to you, considering this is shop aggro.  With 5 ridiculous equips.  If you deal storm a nice 5-6 damage storming you out might be hard without Chain of Vapor.

4x Slice and Dice - Mainly against warrens and the like, but I'm not even sure this is necessary at the moment.  This will have to be proven:

I am still testing this deck, but so far it has been coming along very well, and hopefully with some more testing I can work on ironing out the rest of the kinks>

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

1) There's no need to restrict yourself to one color. You roll other aggro decks/stax and your worst matchups don't run wasteland (combo, Gifts). Running a 5c manabase gives you some pretty broken options such as:

Demonic consultation
Vamp. Tutor
Crop rotation
Stifle
EXTIRPATE
Swords to Plowshares
Recall
Tinker
TIME WALK

2) Jitte/sword is pretty terrible. They do nothing on their own and they're not very good against the best decks in the format.

3) Tangle wire is absolutely RIDICULOUS. You are a tempo deck. Wire is like Walk x 3. Please play it.

4) Welder in your deck looks weak. The only thing you can actually weld back in is a used cap, and I'm pretty sure 1 activation will do the trick. Atleast include some number of bazaars to abuse welder. On that same note, adding wire greatly improves the worth of welders

NOTE: I know you love jester's cap, but I don't think it belongs here.

With all that in mind, if I were to build a shop aggro list it would look like:

4 Juggs
1 Titan
1 Dups
1 Karn
2 Shaman
3 Welder

1 Tinker
1 Recall
1 Vamp.
1 Demonic consultation
1 Crop rotation
1 Walk
3 Extirpate/Stifle

1 Trinisphere
4 Chalice
4 Tangle wire

2 Crucible

28 lands, 2 of which are bazaars

I worked on a list very similar to this about a year ago but gave it up because of better options. Hope this helps,

Bob

EDIT

*FOR CURIOSITY PURPOSES, I'M ACTUALLY POSTING THIS ON TMD AND SCG.  I'M CURIOUS WHAT THE RESPONSES WILL BE LIKE FROM BOTH SITES, AS TO WHICH HAS MORE GOOD HELP AND USEFUL CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

Although the quality of TMD has been slipping a bit, there's no doubt in mind that TMD is THE place for Vintage discussion.

[Liam-K]

I stand by what I said when we played online.  Jester's Cap is terrible.  As I recall, I brought out gifts to demonstrate and you proceeded to lose game 2 because you cast that shitter instead of the trinisphere in your hand.  More often than not I can comfortably let Cap slide, because it doesn't effect anything I can do *now* most of the time, and most decks that care about losing 3 cards have a lot of ways to put those cards somewhere other than their library.  Especially since you usually have to pass the turn before you can activate it.  While it does randomly win games, I really recommend you keep an eye on which of those games you wouldn't have won if the Cap in your hand had been a similarly costed artifact lock, and how many games Cap was too slow, not enough, or bazaared away for sometihng else.  It's not worth the slot, I promise, especially if people are siding in multiple empty the warrens against you.

You have serious, serious overkill against creatures going on.  4 f/i 3 sword 2 jitte and way bigger men?  Que?

Is Jens definitely worth 4 slots?  Do you really want to see lots?

Tangle Wire belongs.  If you get rid of the caps, I'd probably can the equipment and grab some null rods.  Maybe go B/R and add confidant.

[yespuhyren]

What lock piece would have made a difference instead aside from Sphere of Resistance, which, in general isn't so useful at the moment?  Smokestack?  No.  Maybe Orb of Dreams or Jester's Scepter.  Those cards just aren't so good though.  If an opponent has just an insane hand that will win on turn2/3, then it doesn't matter there isn't anything you can do.  As far as I can recall you had some ridiculously powerful gifts hands that really wouldn't have mattered what I played.

SOFI/Jitte is not about creature removal....not even close.  Its about a lot of damage and card draw/life.  Thats the whole point.  SOFI is generally +4 damage, as is Jitte.  Against tendrils, Jitte is +2 storm every swing.

[Vegeta2711]

Why Jester's Cap in an aggro deck? Seems kind of pointless since they're basically dead draws when you don't luck-sack some poor fuck out of the game with them, which isn't going to happen all that often.

[Harlequin]

I've always like 4 maindeck Defense Grids maindeck for shop aggro.  Drain generally can be errataed to "Target player looses the game" when your talking shop aggro vrs drain.  With 4 Grids and 4 chalice @ 2 as your solid turn 1 plays. 

Ew ... Fire/Ice??  Why not Granit Shard, or .. heck even Razormane Mastacore.  Probably the best mid-cc creature every printed.

Light Greaves are really nice too.  They get you away from targeted removal, and with a grid up you can freely jump them around.  They act like the timewalk that keeps on giving.

[Eversio]

I have always been a fan of Shop Aggro decks. They're a lot of fun to play, and can do decent in a tournament (I missed top 4 at one of Vroman's power tournaments on tiebreaks with a version of Gilded Claw).

I

1) There's no need to restrict yourself to one color. You roll other aggro decks/stax and your worst matchups don't run wasteland (combo, Gifts). Running a 5c manabase gives you some pretty broken options

I fully agree with this comment. You limit yourself immensely by sticking to one color. A card that I like a lot in this archetype that no one has brought up so far is Bob. He is the perfect card drawing engine for the deck, since he will replenish your hand over time, and beat for 2 at the same time. He is really solid in this deck.

I also think that there are several cards that probably don't fit very well:

Jens will be bad if you switch to 5C, and I'm not sure how good he is in this deck in general
I agree that Cap, F/I, and equipment could probably be filled with better cards.

I think at least a couple of wastelands should be run as well. This deck is just trying to disrupt the opponent long enough to kill them.

I applaud you for continuing to work on this archetype. It makes me really want to start testing it again.

[Bill Copes]

I think you should try to go 2 color with this thing -- adding either black or white, to fill holes and provide a variety of answers or threats.  I think 2 color is the way to go because at a base level you get to play with fetches and basic lands.  You can splash in beefy creatures that aren't artifacts (and therefore won't be as fragile).  You can add a draw engine that isn't welding in/out Jens, add tutors to find bombs.  Your disruption options grow as well.

Here's a list of what i've been playing for a while.  It's somewhere between stax, somewhere between shop aggro.  It can play either role depending on the match.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Dark Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Balance
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere
3 Juggernaut
1 Razormane Masticore
 
4 Mishra’s Workshop
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Urborg, Tomg of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Mishra’s Factory
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

I've found (at least for me) it's better to flood with disruption and beat for 5-7 a turn, rather than dropping a bunch of guys and hoping they get through before your opponent wins.

I'm glad you started this thread.  I think shop decks are completely viable, given that people actually take the time and effort to break away from the standard 5-color shell and come up with something new and effective.

[madmanmike25]

Screw it, I say keep it mono-red.  The last thing an Aggro deck needs is inconsistency due to color screw.

Solemn helps to fetch out the 6 basics, and is just an awesome utility man.  Juggs is just the epitome of shop aggro beefiness.  Throw a Sword on either and they are just nuts.  Actually, put a sword or Jitte on anything and its nuts.

Solemn is a 2/2.  For 4 mana.  In an aggro deck.  It's a fun parlor trick, but wouldn't you rather have a more efficient face smasher?

What made you decide not to include SSG?  Seems like a decent boost, or another critter late game to beat with.  If you have never cast REB of Will, you don't know what you are missing.

3x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Just in my opinion hands down the best two equips in any aggro deck (excluding Skullclamp in some combo decks like Kobolds or Ravager)  Both are just insanely nuts.

I really like the equipment, I think they are underrated personally.  They provide a faster clock, can draw a card, pick off creatures to maintain board control and add to opponents' storm count.  However I think 4 equipment may be enough, you can easily cut one Sword unless testing proves them too valuable.

I also don't dig the Fire/Ice in this deck.  Have you thought about running beefier creatures and Pyroclasm?  Not to mention any creature of yours equiped with Jitte or Sword can survive.  Pyroclasm could give you card advantage or at least get rid of EtW tokens.  It's worth a look maybe.  If Heretics were in the main, you would have better Stax matches, Fish matches, a way to kill Null Rods and do 11 dmg if DSC hits the table.

4x Pyrostatic Pillar - Against any deck that wants storm.  Even if they don't kill themselver, storming for 5/6 for 12 warrens tokens drastically reduces their life.  I leave the rest of the damage up to you, considering this is shop aggro.  With 5 ridiculous equips.  If you deal storm a nice 5-6 damage storming you out might be hard without Chain of Vapor.

So Pillar wasn't good enough for the maindeck in Aggro?  As I suggested to another deck, consider Juggs+Pillars+Heretics in the main, it can be quite painful for the opponent.

I don't think the Caps are as bad as people say.  A first turn Cap is a pretty solid play against the right deck.  You have enough aggro and equipment to take out the decks that Cap is sub-par in, so I think it can stay in.  Random Cap wins are about as broken as a Shop deck will ever get post Trini restriction.

Are the Factories keeping you from putting Blood Moon in?  Wouldn't the disruption be better?  Especially with that Magus of the Moon guy who can beat down as well, he seems perfect for a mono red beat down deck.

Good luck, thanks for trying to breathe life back into aggro.

[Grand Inquisitor]

In the current environment, the problem isn't workshop aggro, necessarily, but more that the archetypes proponents continue to use Juggernaut as the anchor of the deck's design.

We've known for some time that pure aggro strategies don't cut it in this format.  The problem now is that because combo (and combo control) can generate so much card advantage and have so much tutoring even early on, opposing decks that try to contain them can have very few draws that don't either draw more cards (confidant, bazaar, brainstorm) or fill both roles of disruption and beatdown (meddling mage, jotun grunt, kataki).

This deck has five cards I really care about (chalices and 3sphere) if I'm playing Tendrils kill.  This is simply uncompetitive; there's a reason this archetype hasn't done well since it lost 4x chalice, 4x 3sphere.  Sphere of resistance, while strong, requires that you commit more of the list to prison in order to back it up.  Empty the Warrens complicates all of this, but even before taking account of this card, you're already fighting an uphill battle.  Not to mention that even fish can trade 1-for-1 with juggs now...

[kirdape3]

If I'm playing any non-prison (Fish, Stax) deck and my opponent opens up Workshop -> Mox -> Juggernaut, I'm jumping around the room.  Sure, Gifts doesn't necessarily have the nut-high turn 2 kill every time, but they have it enough that if you don't do SOMETHING to impede my ability to win the game in the first two turns that you're not liable to win at all.

The reasons to play a midrange deck like Workshop aggro include a solid to stellar game against aggro decks and a brutally effective game against Stax.  In a heavily combo field, you absolutely do not want to be tapping four mana unless it's something that immediately stunts the degenerate decks' development.

Also, if you're cutting equipment, don't cut Sword.  The protection from red is about the only way you have to get around Empty the Warrens.

[MuzzonoAmi]

In the same vein as GI and kirdape - Pillar needs to be main. It's your anchor card: if you resolve it, Gifts has a hard time winning through it (i.e., without bouncing it first), other storm based decks are similar, generally trading 6+ life to remove it and combo out. Coupled with 3sphere and SoR, you now have a fighting change. Also, I disagree with:
1. Adding more than 1 additional color. You want stability, consistency, and a passable midgame. 5c decks, especially 5c decks that try and support Ancient Tomb, are going to deal a lot of damage to themselves. This may go against conventional wisdom, but the strategy you are forced to take against combo and combo-control is one of self perservation.
2. The equipment. It's taking up valuable room that you could be using to stunt your opponent's development. Boarding addtional SoFI (which probably belongs as a 2-of) and possibly a Jitte or two against Fish is advisable, but they're absolute bunk everywhere else.

I'd run something like:

// Lands
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    4 Badlands
    1 Mountain
    1 Swamp
    4  Mishra's Factory
    3  Wasteland

// Creatures
    2  Goblin Welder
    4  Gorilla Shaman (1)
    4  Juggernaut
    2  Solemn Simulacrum
    1 Karn, Silver Golem
    4 Dark Confidant
// Spells
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Black Lotus
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Demonic Tutor
    3  Fire/Ice(?)
    4  Chalice of the Void
    2  Sword of Fire and Ice
    4  Pyrostatic Pillar
    1  Trinisphere


I only included the Confidants because they're creatures and draw spells. You might bind Night's Whisper to be more effective.

[Samite Healer]

Yes, MuzzonaAmi beat me to it - Pillar MUST be main in order for a deck like this to be even close to competitive.  In the past, a turn 1 pillar followed by some pressure often meant a storm-based deck had to Chain of Vapor the Pillar before it could go off.  Combine this with a well-timed Chalice of the Void, and you were often in good shape.

Grand Inquisitor makes a great point too - this style of deck has been becoming increasingly ineffective as the metagame has evolved to foster faster combo decks.  It seems an unlikely time for this kind of deck to make a forceful return, especially with most top 8 decks running Empty the Warrens somewhere.

Equipment can be very effective, but I still don't think they will be fast enough.  A few years back I ran a deck like this:

//Creatures (18 Cards)
4 Juggernaut
4 Myr Enforcer
2 Triskelion
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder

//Draw (4 Cards)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune

//Utility/Other (10 Cards)
4 Tangle Wire
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Tinker
1 Mindslaver
1 Time Walk

//Mana (28 Cards)
7 SoLoMox
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Grim Monolith
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

It seems apparent that 4 Chalice of the Void should be in deck (but aside from that), it theoretically has the ability to just "combo" out.  A turn 1 Workshop into a resolved Metalworker often spelled doom for the opponent on the next turn because the mana produced was able to power out chains of hasted Metalworkers/Welders and fatties, often into a Slaver or Time Walk turn + beatdown.

This deck is FAR from optimal in a metagame like today's, but I just wanted to make the point that I think it's the modern evolution of every deck that is fundamentally powered by broken cards (so basically, all decks but fish), to have the ability to "win the game immediately" upon reaching a certain critical step.

Your deck, in its current state, does not have the ability to simply "win the game" nor does it have enough disruption to stall until it can win the game (perhaps solved by maindeck Pillars).


 

[brianpk80]

One suggestion:

Fire/Ice.  Since you're not running much blue for Ice, maybe there's a more efficient pure red card that can serve the same purpose.  Lava Dart perhaps or even Lightning Bolt? 

-BPK

[XdeckX]

I've also been following the same thread on SCG but I will leave my input here as well.

Recently I've been messing around with a list that's basically a mix between Trogdons list (from the last T8 he made) and a list that made it to the T8 of the vintage world champs back when 4 Trinispheres were legal (god I miss those days). It's basically a BR shop aggro...

On to the list.
4x Mishra's Workshop
3x Badlands
3x Bloodstained Mire
5x Mountain
2x Swamp

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt

4x Solemn Simulacrum
3x Juggernaut
2x Duplicant
1x Sundering Titan
2x Razormane Masticore

3x Viashino Heretic
4x Goblin Welder

1x Imperial Seal
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor

4x Blood Moon
4x Orb of Dream
3x Null Rod
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Trinisphere

//Sideboard
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Red Elemental Blast
3x Jester's Cap
3x Triskelion


I'm a big fan of the disruption cards. Blood Moon and Null Rod are one of the strongest hosers in the game if you ask me. It's basically disrupt/stall the opponent long enough to get lethal damage through. I'm also a big fan of Chains of Mephistophels. Disrupting carddrawing is always a good thing. It might have some anti-synery with Solemn but it's too strong not to include (even as a 2-off)

There are still some thing's I'm not quite sure about.
-Orb of Dreams: it stalls but sometimes I get hurt more by it then my opponent does. It's basically a win card against Ichorid (without Sutured Ghoul) and Dragon but is it strong enough to include it... maybe Chalice is better. Come to think of it... chalice is probably better.
-Viashino Heretic: it's a gamewinner against Stax but since I play aggro (which usually wins against Stax anyway) and I have welders Gorilla Shaman might be better.

And as some have stated before Tangle Wire might have a place in this as well. It's sure stalls the game and basically gives you a double Time Walk (if lucky) but I'm not sure what to take out. Maybe the Chains need to go...

[demonic effect]

You should definately not cut orb of dreams.  If anything you should cut Chains of Mephistopheles from the list to include Chalice.  The point of MonoR stax is to color screw the opponent.  Null Rod/chalice and to a lesser extent the Heretics help to shut off moxen, Blood Moon is meant to play god and make pretty mountains spring up from no where, and Orb of Dreams is meant to drastically stall the opponent due to its negative relationship with fetchlands and to, just in general, take advantage of the fact that you got to play your lands for a turn w/o this affecting you which, when combined with shops = huge tempo boost.  This last part becomes important because of its relationship with blood moon in that it will take the opponent 3 turns (if orb is played turn 1) to get a basic land that is usuable (assuming they use a fetch)  This means that the amount of basics that the opponent will have access to will be incredibly low allowing the "lock" to exist.  In addition, with an active Heretic and orb in play, an opponent will now have to play 3 moxen in a turn to have access to that mana (assuming rod/chalice aren't down first).

Additionally, why would you play this list as aggro?  It seems that the first priority is to get a lock piece down and then creatures so as to ensure you don't roll over to decks that traditionally beat aggro (aka faster decks).  This is why decks like fish pack so much disruption... namely aggro keels over to non-control decks of which there are very few that follow the traditional archetype.

On tangle wire:  That card is horrible in this deck.  It was only good in traditional stax builds b/c of the slight tempo boost it gave you to which could be furthered through additional lock pieces that limited permenants on board while at the same time forcing players to pay more for their spells.  Since that is no longer the focus of a build like yours it doesn't seem that it'd fit nearly as well as some other lock pieces.

Finally, why do you include black?  It means you add fetchlands (which are bad under orb) and duals (which are wasteable) for cards that will eat up resources instead of playing a lock piece.  All of this for only 3 cards seems to be a bit much.  Especially considering when you would actually play them... Either you play them early game which makes you equally vulnerable to wastes etc... since you are not creating tempo in your favor by playing lock pieces or you play them after you have a decent lock down which means they are win more cards.  Since your deck is incredibly redundant, and has no cards that are answers to specific hate (for the most part) that are not 3-4 of's why destroy your mana base for these cards?

[Purple Hat]

-Orb of Dreams: it stalls but sometimes I get hurt more by it then my opponent does. It's basically a win card against Ichorid (without Sutured Ghoul) and Dragon but is it strong enough to include it... maybe Chalice is better. Come to think of it... chalice is probably better.

how is this a win card vs dragon?  it seems good against other combo though as it prevents will/draw spells from generating mana and storm on the same turn.

[XdeckX]

-Orb of Dreams: it stalls but sometimes I get hurt more by it then my opponent does. It's basically a win card against Ichorid (without Sutured Ghoul) and Dragon but is it strong enough to include it... maybe Chalice is better. Come to think of it... chalice is probably better.

how is this a win card vs dragon?  it seems good against other combo though as it prevents will/draw spells from generating mana and storm on the same turn.

All permanents come into play tapped hence dragon player doesn't get infinite mana. No infinite mana usually means no winning for dragon. It's not that dragon can't win with orb out but it does slow down the deck and prevent infinite combo's.

Finally, why do you include black?  It means you add fetchlands (which are bad under orb) and duals (which are wasteable) for cards that will eat up resources instead of playing a lock piece.  All of this for only 3 cards seems to be a bit much.  Especially considering when you would actually play them... Either you play them early game which makes you equally vulnerable to wastes etc... since you are not creating tempo in your favor by playing lock pieces or you play them after you have a decent lock down which means they are win more cards.  Since your deck is incredibly redundant, and has no cards that are answers to specific hate (for the most part) that are not 3-4 of's why destroy your mana base for these cards?

The main reason to add black is to have access to tutors. At first I played only the basic lands (no duals and no fetch) but I figured it might be nice to have access to both colors early on (without having the need to get the missing color with Solemn.
I'm aware of the fact that fetchlands arent really synergetic with Orb of Dreams that's why I only play 3.

Maybe I should cut black all together and try Gamble as a tutor (if I can get my hands on those )

[A.-1.]

Yes Orb of Dreams / Root Maze stops Dragon from winning via Ambassador, Kumano, Stroke of Genius, etc. When all the permanents that Worldgorger removed, come back, they come back tapped under Orb / Maze and there is no time when the Dragon player can tap them for mana.

Without maindeck bounce or Caller of the Claw, Dragon loses game 1 to Orb.

[Liam-K]

What lock piece would have made a difference instead aside from Sphere of Resistance, which, in general isn't so useful at the moment?  Smokestack?  No.  Maybe Orb of Dreams or Jester's Scepter.  Those cards just aren't so good though.  If an opponent has just an insane hand that will win on turn2/3, then it doesn't matter there isn't anything you can do.  As far as I can recall you had some ridiculously powerful gifts hands that really wouldn't have mattered what I played.

SOFI/Jitte is not about creature removal....not even close.  Its about a lot of damage and card draw/life.  Thats the whole point.  SOFI is generally +4 damage, as is Jitte.  Against tendrils, Jitte is +2 storm every swing.

The trinisphere would have slowed me down quite a bit, quite possibly enough to get another relevant card.  Chalice (correctly called) would have ended me.  Wasteland would have ended me.  Null Rod would probably have been game.  Tangle Wire would have bought a lot of turns.  My "ridiculously powerful" gifts hand wasn't too special either, I had to lay academy at 1 first turn and brainstorm into more land, and was unable to go off with tendrils on the third turn when I was forced to act.  Siding in a lot of EtW played the biggest role in that match, as I was able to blow my load and lay 10-12 goblins when you spent all your tempo by tapping out to cast Jester's Cap.

[zeus-online]

About orb...
Dosn't stop dragon from drawing the game though? For that reason i can't see this as a back-breaker against dragon.

/Zeus

[demonic effect]

Whether or not orb is the right card against dragon in terms of its ability to slow them down signifantly (in terms them using fetches, slowing moxes down to a speed that can be killed by Heretics, and the need to have a bazaar and enough mana to get the combo as well as its ability to stop infinite mana etc... is a matter of testing.  The tempo from the first might be enough combined with other cards like blood moon, null rod, etc... or the loss of significant mana production in terms of recalling them to death etc... is enough...  Regardless... if testing shows that it is not the card against dragon well I'd assume that there are sideboard cards that can be switched in.  That is one archetype which, for the most part is not played too often b/c of side hate against Ichorid, and so as long as orb performs well against other archetypes which do see significant numbers, which it does, it should be included.

[yespuhyren]

  Chalice (correctly called) would have ended me.  Wasteland would have ended me.  Null Rod would probably have been game.  Tangle Wire would have bought a lot of turns.  My "ridiculously powerful" gifts hand wasn't too special either, I had to lay academy at 1 first turn and brainstorm into more land, and was unable to go off with tendrils on the third turn when I was forced to act.  Siding in a lot of EtW played the biggest role in that match, as I was able to blow my load and lay 10-12 goblins when you spent all your tempo by tapping out to cast Jester's Cap.

But I play Wastelands and Wires and Chalices...I just didn't have them at the time.  So you can't say they were better plays.  I took a gamble.  Really doesn't matter what I "spend my tempo on" when I have few to no options that actually are relevant.  ETW for 2-3 storm is often enough preboard.

[Purple Hat]

Yes Orb of Dreams / Root Maze stops Dragon from winning via Ambassador, Kumano, Stroke of Genius, etc. When all the permanents that Worldgorger removed, come back, they come back tapped under Orb / Maze and there is no time when the Dragon player can tap them for mana.

Without maindeck bounce or Caller of the Claw, Dragon loses game 1 to Orb.

dragon doesn't win game one =/= dragon loses game 1.

dragon draws game 1 and goes to game 2 where it still has an insanely good matchup cus you still have a slower clock, it's still got the ability to draw if it can't win and you're still playing orb of dreams thinking it does something relevant.

no one is arguing that dragon somehow wins through orb.  well....let me rephrase.  No one who isn't arguing that Orb of dreams somehow wrecks dragon is arguing that dragon has to win through orb of dreams.  the thing is that dragon STARTS THE GAME OVER for 2 mana in the face of orb of dreams.  there is virtually no negative consequence to drawing the game for dragon vs shop aggro.  That's what we're saying.  Orb of dreams forces a situation that is BAD for shop aggro vs dragon.  Namely dragon resets to 20 life and you lose your board position and dragon STILL GOLDFISHES YOU.  since you're not gonna kill me on turn 3 on the play realistically with juggernauts very often, especially not if you stopped to drop orb of dreams there's a very high probability that I was able to drop my artifact mana on turn 1 or 2, drop bazaar or mana lands on both turns, untap and draw the game on turn 3,4 or 5 regardless of whether you have an orb of dreams on turn 1.  also I'd like to point out, for the record, that "this card wins vs dragon if I draw and resolve blood moon" is a statement that is also true of mountain goat.  where are your mountain goats?

additionally as a 4 of main deck orb of dreams is probably not good enough.  the decks that it's good against (other than ichorid) are enough faster than you and contain enough tutors/bounce spells that they can remove it with ease in the course of winning the game.  I just don't think it does enough in general for the maindeck.  would't you be better served by tormod's crypt which is good vs literally everything, is better on turn 1, doesn't burn up a turn when you want to be casting beaters and is harder to play around, especially with welder in play?  this seems like a simple choice.

[XdeckX]

Yes Orb of Dreams / Root Maze stops Dragon from winning via Ambassador, Kumano, Stroke of Genius, etc. When all the permanents that Worldgorger removed, come back, they come back tapped under Orb / Maze and there is no time when the Dragon player can tap them for mana.

Without maindeck bounce or Caller of the Claw, Dragon loses game 1 to Orb.

dragon doesn't win game one =/= dragon loses game 1.

dragon draws game 1 and goes to game 2 where it still has an insanely good matchup cus you still have a slower clock, it's still got the ability to draw if it can't win and you're still playing orb of dreams thinking it does something relevant.

Game 2 you also have access to Tormod's crypt and Diabolic Edict and even Jester's Cap (if using the list I provided). Having dragon draw the game because it can't win is still better than losing game 1 in my book.
That beeing said my guess is the combo matchup isn't all that great. All together the lists provided in this thread still need allot of work if they want to be competative. But that's what this thread is for right

[zeus-online]

I find that it's relatively easy to play around common hate cards against dragon (Crypt for example)...And i'd wager that the edicts wouldn't help you at all, since you're probably tapping everything in order to put a clock on the dragon player - Leaving you with no mana for the edict.

Anyways, Dragon is not played enough for this to be relevant, so i'll leave it at that.

/Zeus

[demonic effect]

no one is arguing that dragon somehow wins through orb.  well....let me rephrase.  No one who isn't arguing that Orb of dreams somehow wrecks dragon is arguing that dragon has to win through orb of dreams.  the thing is that dragon STARTS THE GAME OVER for 2 mana in the face of orb of dreams.  there is virtually no negative consequence to drawing the game for dragon vs shop aggro.  That's what we're saying.  Orb of dreams forces a situation that is BAD for shop aggro vs dragon.  Namely dragon resets to 20 life and you lose your board position and dragon STILL GOLDFISHES YOU.  since you're not gonna kill me on turn 3 on the play realistically with juggernauts very often, especially not if you stopped to drop orb of dreams there's a very high probability that I was able to drop my artifact mana on turn 1 or 2, drop bazaar or mana lands on both turns, untap and draw the game on turn 3,4 or 5 regardless of whether you have an orb of dreams on turn 1.  also I'd like to point out, for the record, that "this card wins vs dragon if I draw and resolve blood moon" is a statement that is also true of mountain goat.  where are your mountain goats?

The problem is that with orb of dreams in play, you are unable to draw with bazaar or compulsion b/c the lands necessary to complete this will be tapped... The only thing possible is to literally "draw" by never ending the loop... this, however, is always a possibility and so irrelevant.

You say Dragon Still Goldfishes me... yea, if you consider when a deck effectively scoops due to life total etc... then it does goldfish me.  However, dragon still has to deal with the massive tempo loss, other lock cards, etc...  That is why disruption is important to test b/c goldfish doesn't always win the game.

With reference to the blood moon thing, the relationship with orb and blood moon is that the number of basics that can be fetched out are greatly diminished with an orb in play thereby maximizing the effect... something that most good decks can do and hence why it is important...  Its the reason orb is better than mountain goat;)

additionally as a 4 of main deck orb of dreams is probably not good enough.  the decks that it's good against (other than ichorid) are enough faster than you and contain enough tutors/bounce spells that they can remove it with ease in the course of winning the game.  I just don't think it does enough in general for the maindeck.  would't you be better served by tormod's crypt which is good vs literally everything, is better on turn 1, doesn't burn up a turn when you want to be casting beaters and is harder to play around, especially with welder in play?  this seems like a simple choi

The point of a any aggro deck is to provide disruption to slow the game down to match your clock.  Fishes creatures double as disruption hence why it is succesful..  Orb of dreams is amazing disruption in terms of how much it slows down games especially b/c of the use of fetches.  However, this is not saying that this alone is good enough.. almost no lock piece is which is why its called a lock... multiple cards interacting with each other to get unquestionable control of the game.  Sure, bounce spells/tutors can take care of orb... and they do that to pretty much any lock piece out there even the fabled trinisphere.  Its not whether or not they can be taken care of, but whether or not they do their job while they are on the board and, early board control, which orb does provide, as well as a way to prevent any moxes ever being played/useable (due to heretics) is good.

In terms of Crypt v.s. Orb... they serve different functions.  Crypt disrupts the opponent, sure, but it does not slow them down... gifts is much less disrupted by crypt compared to orb considering you argue that they have means of finding bounce via tutors which is much easier to achieve under crypt than orb...  Namely crypt doesn't slow decks down which then allows for a clock/protection for your beats.

and regardless...

Anyways, Dragon is not played enough for this to be relevant, so i'll leave it at that.

[Liam-K]

  Chalice (correctly called) would have ended me.  Wasteland would have ended me.  Null Rod would probably have been game.  Tangle Wire would have bought a lot of turns.  My "ridiculously powerful" gifts hand wasn't too special either, I had to lay academy at 1 first turn and brainstorm into more land, and was unable to go off with tendrils on the third turn when I was forced to act.  Siding in a lot of EtW played the biggest role in that match, as I was able to blow my load and lay 10-12 goblins when you spent all your tempo by tapping out to cast Jester's Cap.

But I play Wastelands and Wires and Chalices...I just didn't have them at the time.  So you can't say they were better plays.  I took a gamble.  Really doesn't matter what I "spend my tempo on" when I have few to no options that actually are relevant.  ETW for 2-3 storm is often enough preboard.

You had bazaar in play, cards in hand, and needed to hit one of 12 cards.  Over 50% chances if you'd got another turn (3 chances to hit 12 out of 45-50), which you would have if you'd cast trinisphere (which you DID have at the time).  Stax has to be played from turn to turn because if you let your gaurd down you lose.  Doing nothing for a turn when you have cards in your hand is bad, which is what you tend to do with Cap.  Furthermore, looking at opportunity cost, if the Cap in your hand had been *any other lock* you could have been running (particularly null rod) you almost certainly would have won the game.  Additionally, if you side in at least 2 ETW as Gifts (easily the best Cap target as Long is faster) then Cap doesn't even clear out every win condition.

Furthermore, shop aggro can't even buy as much time as stax to cast then activate the bloody thing.  I already think it's too unweildly for stax, and you want to play it in a list with far less disruption?  That's without getting into the fact that against decks that aren't game 1 vs gifts or long, cap activations will be way worse, as your opponent is much more able to use many cards against juggernaut than smokestack.

I also still question the equipment, especially since it keeps you away from null rod.  Jitte absolutely does not matter against a relatively unimpeded Long deck unless you've managed to hold them down for ages, in which case jitte is probably win more.  I like that SoFi draws cards but honestly it just seems clunky, especially since you need a guy to tape it to for it to do anything.  Null Rod seems stronger than both... for that matter so does tangle.

[demonic effect]

Furthermore, shop aggro can't even buy as much time as stax to cast then activate the bloody thing.  I already think it's too unweildly for stax, and you want to play it in a list with far less disruption?  That's without getting into the fact that against decks that aren't game 1 vs gifts or long, cap activations will be way worse, as your opponent is much more able to use many cards against juggernaut than smokestack.

I also still question the equipment, especially since it keeps you away from null rod.  Jitte absolutely does not matter against a relatively unimpeded Long deck unless you've managed to hold them down for ages, in which case jitte is probably win more.  I like that SoFi draws cards but honestly it just seems clunky, especially since you need a guy to tape it to for it to do anything.  Null Rod seems stronger than both... for that matter so does tangle.

I completely agree...  Nowadays, there is no such thing as pure aggro b/c that silly little thing called the attack phase is pretty taboo...  Why spend resources on a card that sits there for a turn, and takes several turns to even matter (since life is one of your most plentiful resources I'd gladly exchange life if it effectively means a time walk)...  In other words,  if the creature you are playing doesn't impact the game (like meddling mage, jotun grunt, etc...) then the alternative is to play a lot of seperate cards that are disruptive the way decks like tog did. 

Specifically, your disruption is focused upon 4 cards... Chalice, Jitte, SoFI, and Fire/Ice...
   Chalice by itself will not slow the game down significantly considering the amount of anti-artifact cards and bounce going around (which probably would be sided in anyway since you have a lot of artifacts)
   Jitte is a 2 of and with the limited draw.. will be hard to play and use before turn 3 at best which makes it too slow for most combo who, by then, can find bounce if it truly is a threat.
   SoFI... Only truly impacts decks with creatures which you should already own since you have access to Juggs, Razormane, etc... If anything this card is more utility than disruption except against decks like fish...  Sure it may hit Dark Confidant and Welder, but welder can weld it out and Dark Confidant is good but not the end-all...
   Fire/Ice:  simply put, you don't tap anything with it... you only use it for the damage aspect which is relatively unimpressive compared to cards like lightning bolt which also don't see play...

With that in mind, the original list presented seems to fall behind in the disruption category meaning that it will, barring a perfect hand, will die to most decks that are inherently faster (namely T!)... Even fish should do decently since they can counter your Jitte (or null rod)... get grunt in play which can eliminate welder targets and stop juggs, and simply beat you/deny your resources while they apply their clock.

The list that looks a lot more finished is the one mirroring Trogdons list as presented by XdeckX...  Namely it embodies all of the elements that we like in stax (different lock components but still a lock) which can swing tempo long enough for a slower clock of Razormanes to destroy the opponent.  Although not optimal, in my opinion as I have expressed... I still think that it is MUCH closer to being so than the original list presented.

[LotusHead]

    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Gorilla Shaman


    3  Sword of Fire and Ice
    2  Umezawa's Jitte

Eight 1-drops and 5 snazzy equipments were pretty effective in schooling me when Jester and I played on MWS.

I just can't wrap my head around the 1 Strip, no Wastelands thing.  Are 4 factories neccesary?  Or 6 actual mountains for that matter?