[Article] Analysis of the Restriction of Gifts and Restriction Policy Generally

[Shock Wave]

Son of Serra hit the nail on the head the most out of anyone in argument to Steve's original post. In addition to the restriction of Trinisphere establishing the precedent that "unfun" was a criterion for restriction, it also added the precedent that R&D creates new precedences for their restrictions.

This is exactly why these sorts of debates are futile. There is no systematic process that the DCI follows when making a restriction/unrestriction. It's not as if they run cards through an X-Stage process and then arrive at a Pass/Fail for a given card. The DCI works intuitively and largely by feel, and that's their prerogative, since they are the sanctioning body. Since they've done a damn good job up to now, why not let them continue to do it? They don't need to justify their decisions to the players, especially given their reputable track record when making tough decisions about the B&R list. Sure, they might've missed a few freebies with Dream Halls and Grim Monolith, but they did their best to shake up the format by allowing Gush. They made a questionable decision with Mind Twist, but hell, at least they're paying attention to the format and giving us a somewhat new environment. Yes, the timing was off with the Gifts restriction, but ask yourself this question: If Flash and Ichorid were to be neutered (which seems like a probability in the future), would you want Gifts to be unrestricted in such an environment? I certainly would not. In the months to come, here is what I think would restore some equilibrium and sanity to this format:

+Flash
+Serum Powder (a very interesting suggestion to hose Ichorid, since hitting Bazaar doesn't seem like a good idea)
+Mind Twist (maybe. I personally would've never taken this off on principle, but I suppose if nobody is interested in abusing it, then it can stay)

- Grim Monolith
- Dream Halls

The stage we're at right now reminds me of the era after Trinisphere entered the format. People started calling for its head right away, but it took several months of silliness before the DCI took action. I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing happen with Flash and Ichorid. People understand that they stymie interaction and make the game unfun. They will be calling for a review, and the DCI will decide what is appropriate. I think if we returned to the metagame we had before Flash and Ichorid, with Gifts neutered and Gush unrestricted, that we would have a very varied metagame with all the viable decks we had before plus GAT and whatever the new unrestrictions can offer. That to me sounds like a very promising future for Type 1.

[Nehptis]

I agree that Gifts was an appropriate call, MTwist was risky and I think Gush was a mistake.  But, it's best to look at cards in terms how opponents can deal with them before making a B/R restriction.

For example, to combat the card Gifts, an opponent can counter it, that's it.  Hitting the GY is a viable answer, too.  But, in most cases the Gifts player will bounce a Leyline or a Crypt prior to casting Gifts.  So really countering Gifts is the only response.  And 9 times out of 10 your counter will be FOWed.

Mtwist, however, is a bit different.  A first turn Twist can be FOWed or MisDed.  So, it's not terribly powerful like Gifts because there is some resistance to it. But, most of the time Land, Rit, Twist is gonna sting.  That's why I say it's risky to pull off the list.

Gush, is interesting.  In theory, I know that the card is broken in multiples.  It's free draw and I lived thru the GAT days.  But, so far in practice (on MWS) I've been toppling Gush players left and right.  I'm not sure if they have cut the wrong cards or simply aren't playing the GAT / Gush TOA decks correctly.  But, so far Gush has not been overwhelming me.  Still, I think it will eventually pose a problem.

Ichorid, yes it's fast.  But, is Bazzar or Powder restriction worthy?  I say no.  I think the problem is that players have gotten lazy in not running Wastes/Strip.  Granted every deck can't support them.  But, those that do have little trouble with Ich.  Not to mention Game 2/3 bringing in Leyline/Crypt is huge.  If Ich were able to support a control element like Flash does then it would be a problem.

Flash, this is a huge problem and has got to go.  Fast, simple and resilient.  I mean it has 8+ free counterspells and is a 2 card Instant speed-combo in Blue!  It can be faster than Ich, it has more control than Storm combo and by being heavy blue it doesn't fret when a Leyline or Jailer is in play.  And of course the FUT developers basically printed 2 cards that say:

0 - Counter target spell (Ignore drawback).
0 - Tutor for creature (Ignore drawback).

[Smmenen]

In the months to come, here is what I think would restore some equilibrium and sanity to this format:

+Flash
+Serum Powder (a very interesting suggestion to hose Ichorid, since hitting Bazaar doesn't seem like a good idea)
+Mind Twist (maybe. I personally would've never taken this off on principle, but I suppose if nobody is interested in abusing it, then it can stay)

- Grim Monolith
- Dream Halls

This is precisely one of the problems with players making claims completely unhinged from tournament data and one of my strong claims generally:
Players in Vintage are more likely to ask the DCI to make changes to the format than to let the metagame adjust.   

I mean, what evidence is there that Flash or Ichorid are even any good in the metgame?    Virtually none.   It's like people calling for the restriction of Fact based upon a couple of 30 person tournaments.   Why not let the metagame adjust and see what happens?   Why do we always have to jump the gun and ask for restrictions at the earliest possible time?   

The stage we're at right now reminds me of the era after Trinisphere entered the format. People started calling for its head right away, but it took several months of silliness before the DCI took action.

And by several months you mean 12 months.  When Trinisphere decks had actually ended up warping the format rather than the speculation and theoretical musing of players.

Stephen

[Implacable]

I agree that no restrictions should be made, barring extraordinary events, at the next B&R cycle.  The metagame needs time to sort itself out before we can attempt to wring rhyme or reason from it.  Is Gush powerful?  Certainly.  Is Flash?  Is Serum Powder?  Definitely.  Are a host of other cards in the format at least as powerful as they are?  Absolutely.  It remains to be seen if any of those cards are so distorting to the format that they should be removed from it.

[Xman]

I mean, what evidence is there that Flash or Ichorid are even any good in the metgame?    Virtually none.   It's like people calling for the restriction of Fact based upon a couple of 30 person tournaments.   Why not let the metagame adjust and see what happens?   Why do we always have to jump the gun and ask for restrictions at the earliest possible time?   

Because it si so much fun to jump the gun & call for restrictions & Bannings.  The End is NIGH!  BAN BLUE NOW!  BAN THE GRAVEYARD!

Ok, on a serious note, is Flash strong?  Yes.  Is Ichorid Strong?  Yes, Was restricting Gifts the right move? Debatable depending on who you are.  Was unrestricitn gGush the right thing?  Again, Debatable.  Will the format go down in flames?  No.  It has survived more than this before.

The format has survived more intense times than now, and I am will put my money on the fact it will do so again.  Afterall, as Steve said, there are no major tournaments to base this one.  Yes, we have small tournaments that have decks like Flash winning & dominating.  After Roanoake we will have other information on the strnegth of the deck.  If the T8 there is 4 Flash, 3 Ichorid, & 1 Long varient, then we have a problem.  But I honestly think the T8 will look like a roughly normal spread.  Gifts will still be legal, so people will play it.  I am sure Meandeck has some new deck they think is the new hotness, so they will play it.  And you will get close to the usual smattering of everything else.

If you look at all major tournaments, people will end up playing what they know and feel comfortable with unless there is a new secret deck that they have time to test.  And from previous major tournaments, the meta appears healthy.  But since this is a brand new metagame we really don't know whats oging to happen.  There is tons of speculation, but I for one say we ought to keep a cool head on us, and then wait & see.  It might be normal or it could be very distroted.  We shall see, and then we can debate the state of the meta more effeciently.  Along with then what should (or could) be Banned/Restricted or taken ff the list.

[Shock Wave]

This is precisely one of the problems with players making claims completely unhinged from tournament data and one of my strong claims generally:
Players in Vintage are more likely to ask the DCI to make changes to the format than to let the metagame adjust.   

I mean, what evidence is there that Flash or Ichorid are even any good in the metgame?    Virtually none.   It's like people calling for the restriction of Fact based upon a couple of 30 person tournaments.   Why not let the metagame adjust and see what happens?   Why do we always have to jump the gun and ask for restrictions at the earliest possible time?   

You're right. There currently is no evidence that Flash and Ichorid are warping the metagame. There also wasn't any evidence when Trinisphere entered the metagame that it would warp or degenerate the format. The only reason there wasn't any evidence was because not enough time had elapsed for any evidence to accumulate. This is no different than building a straw hut in the path of a twister and saying "There's no evidence to suggest that this hut will collapse in the future." Sure, have your 6-12 months of skewed metagame and degeneracy, with every deck running 4 Leyline in the board. It's absolutely awful (in my opinion), but if that's what players want, I don't think the DCI is out of line by allowing 12 months to pass before deciding what to do.

Notice that I wasn't asking for a restriction right now. I merely stated that I believe restrictions are inevitable for the purpose of neutering those degenerate archetypes.

And by several months you mean 12 months.  When Trinisphere decks had actually ended up warping the format rather than the speculation and theoretical musing of players.

Yeah, but somehow, the "speculation and theoretical musing" of the players proved to be spot on in regards to Trinisphere. Perhaps those 12 months of Vintage would've been more enjoyable had Trinisphere gotten the axe earlier? I don't doubt it, seeing as how Trinisphere quickly earned the "unfun" award.

I find it highly amusing that you suggest the DCI disregard the "speculation and theoretical musing" of players, yet you feel this thread, which is a compilation of hours of your own speculation and theoretical musing, holds more validity than anyone else's arguments related to B&R changes.

[Moxlotus]

Yeah, but somehow, the "speculation and theoretical musing" of the players proved to be spot on in regards to Trinisphere

This is no different than building a straw hut in the path of a twister and saying "There's no evidence to suggest that this hut will collapse in the future." 

On the other hand, the speculation and theoretical musing of some players thinking that combo would be the new king when trinisphere was gone was completely off base.  The second quote could have easily been taken from an anti-trinisphere restriction post.  I mean, it is so obvious that trinisphere is keeping combo down, right?  There was no evidence to suggest that combo wouldn't dominate.  That's how I felt.  I was dead wrong.  Lots of people were wrong.

I don't think the DCI should listen to any player predicting future metagames.  New developments happen all the time and metagames adjust.  They are nigh-impossible to predict.  Aggro-control is an incredibly versatile archetype and always seems to survive and can thrive in almost any environment.  In response to the new aggro control decks, the first deck must adapt.  Since the new aggro-control deck is being played, then the old "best deck" that was hated out before is now viable again.  And the cycle continues. 

Nobody can ever predict what the metagame will be like in the months ahead WITHOUT B&R list additions--we sure as hell can't predict with B&R changes.  We don't even need new cards entering the fray to warp the metagame--Intuition Tendrils and then Pitch Long didn't come into existance from a brand new set.

Theoretical musings on the reasoning behind the B&R list is completely different.

[Shock Wave]

On the other hand, the speculation and theoretical musing of some players thinking that combo would be the new king when trinisphere was gone was completely off base.  The second quote could have easily been taken from an anti-trinisphere restriction post.  I mean, it is so obvious that trinisphere is keeping combo down, right?  There was no evidence to suggest that combo wouldn't dominate.  That's how I felt.  I was dead wrong.  Lots of people were wrong.

Fair enough. B&R changes are going to be made, and people are going to have opinions. In the end, some people are going to be proved accurate in their predictions and some people are going to be way off. No news there. That's ultimately the only result of these threads. 6-12 months from now, someone will be able to say "See? I told you so."

I don't think the DCI should listen to any player predicting future metagames.  New developments happen all the time and metagames adjust.  They are nigh-impossible to predict.  Aggro-control is an incredibly versatile archetype and always seems to survive and can thrive in almost any environment.  In response to the new aggro control decks, the first deck must adapt.  Since the new aggro-control deck is being played, then the old "best deck" that was hated out before is now viable again.  And the cycle continues.

Well, I think you're a little off in saying "nigh impossible". If the implications of a new card entering a format were "nigh impossible" to predict, then we would never have preemptive restrictions. Do you think it would be fair to say that the metagame would be impossible to predict if we had Mind's Desire unrestricted, or something else equally foolish? You probably wouldn't be able to predict what the metagame would look like, but even a caveman could deduce that it would be absolutely silly. Nobody wants to play in a metagame of that nature, even if it is dramatically different from the previous.

It really wasn't difficult to predict what would happen with Trinisphere. We had an environment where combo was already in check, the metagame was healthy, and then Trinisphere entered. For some reason, people decided that the disruption we already had (2s, CotV, permission, etc) was all of a sudden insufficient and we needed Trinisphere to survive. Obviously people speculated about the negative impact Trinisphere would have, but it didn't take long before people were complaining about the "unfun-ness" of the card.

I think this is one of the crucial points that we need to consider when talking about the motives behind the DCI making a B&R change: We all have our own idea of what is fun for the format, and the DCI is the judge whose mysterious definition of "fun" governs us all. For some players, fun means being able to go broken ASAP and smash your opponent before they have a chance to play a card. For others, it is a continually shifting random metagame. For others still, it is the ability to play their pet decks. When Trinisphere was restricted, the DCI cited that it was an "unfun" card, although they didn't really reveal a guideline for what makes it so. They said it prevented players from using their cards. Fair enough, but so does dying against Flash on Turn 1 or Turn 2. Yes, brokenness happens in T1, and yes, sometimes you will die on Turn 1. However, there has to be an identifiable threshold where we can say: "Ok, this deck kills just too frequently on Turn 1 or Turn 2." I'm guessing that Flash fits the bill. Ichorid is just a monster that doesn't play by the same rules as every other deck. Who knows if the DCI will determine that this is another reason to enforce a restriction?

Nobody can ever predict what the metagame will be like in the months ahead WITHOUT B&R list additions--we sure as hell can't predict with B&R changes.  We don't even need new cards entering the fray to warp the metagame--Intuition Tendrils and then Pitch Long didn't come into existance from a brand new set.

Theoretical musings on the reasoning behind the B&R list is completely different.

I disagree that the metagame is not predictable. Yes, it is difficult to predict with any consistency, but it is predictable to a degree. Speculating about the B&R list and the future metagame is related closely enough that they are almost the same discussion. The B&R list is what shapes the immediate metagame. When we discuss the B&R list and the future of the metagame in light of recent B&R changes, we're not trying to predict what decks will be prevalent or what the top tier deck will be with any accuracy. We're trying to discuss and identify what is fair. At GP Columbus, I don't think anyone would've predicted a Counterbalance-Flash hybrid to win the whole thing, but everyone knew that Flash was broken and metagame warping.

I'd just like to reiterate that I'm not calling for the ban/restriction hammer right now. However, I think that if we see sufficient metagame warping in the next 3 months (and I strongly suspect we will), I believe Flash and Ichorid will be the next targets for neutering. I also disagree that we should have to wait 12 months before arriving at the conclusion that a card is ridiculous. It took Flash 1 event (granted, a 900+ player event) to get the axe. I think we could compile enough tournament evidence in 3 months to illustrate a potential problem.

[Implacable]

I'd just like to reiterate that I'm not calling for the ban/restriction hammer right now. However, I think that if we see sufficient metagame warping in the next 3 months (and I strongly suspect we will), I believe Flash and Ichorid will be the next targets for neutering. I also disagree that we should have to wait 12 months before arriving at the conclusion that a card is ridiculous. It took Flash 1 event (granted, a 900+ player event) to get the axe. I think we could compile enough tournament evidence in 3 months to illustrate a potential problem.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion, but I do believe that your choice of facts to illustrate your point is off-base.  Even if Flash had not won Grand Prix: Colombus or put 3 decks into the Top 8, it still would probably have been restricted.  The DCI community didn't restrict Flash because it would have necessarily won every tournament; they restricted it because the entire grassroots Legacy network was essentially unanimous in their opinion that Flash would have to go.  On the other hand, as indicated by this thread alone, there is a good deal of controversy on the subject of the Vintage B&R list.  Only when a player community is unanimous should the DCI take it seriously.  Until then, we are just people on the Internet, voicing our disparate opinions.

[Shock Wave]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion, but I do believe that your choice of facts to illustrate your point is off-base.  Even if Flash had not won Grand Prix: Colombus or put 3 decks into the Top 8, it still would probably have been restricted.  The DCI community didn't restrict Flash because it would have necessarily won every tournament; they restricted it because the entire grassroots Legacy network was essentially unanimous in their opinion that Flash would have to go.  On the other hand, as indicated by this thread alone, there is a good deal of controversy on the subject of the Vintage B&R list.  Only when a player community is unanimous should the DCI take it seriously.  Until then, we are just people on the Internet, voicing our disparate opinions.

I read Forsythe's comments and they basically stated that Flash warped the environment. The community made some noise, the DCI agreed, and the card was banned. The DCI did not ban Flash just because the community was up in arms. They obviously put some thought into it. If the DCI just decided to randomly ban/restrict cards based on the whimsy of the community, Vintage would be a disaster.

[Chamelet]

Well, what I was linking about DCI behavior is that they were changing things slowly. I mean, unrestricting one (relevant) thing at a time, y'know?
What struck me is that after 2 blank announcements, they suddenly change the situation of 5 cards. And at least two very relevant cards: Gush and Gifts. I mean, my guess is that they restricted Gifts in order to unrestrict Gush. Something tells me that an environment with 4 Gush + 4 Gifts (both very good with Y.Will) is not healthy. What I'm trying to say, Smennen, is that well, if they have been doing a great job in the restricted list for a few years, why would they be wrong now? Maybe they're, again, smarter and more cautelous than us.
Anyway, what I think was the "right" thing to do was unrestrict Gush and simply see where it would get. Vintage adapts very fast. They would obviously know if Gifts + Gush was a explosive combination, or anything like that.
It's obviously very, very COOL that they're willing to shake things up like this once in a while.
But well, they should shake only a side at a time. Probably wait to see where Flash and FS would get.

Repeating and resuming:
What I would've done right know is:
- Unrestrict Key, Vise and Twist (maybe Gush, if they really think it's worth it). Wait 3 months to see where FS and flash lead the format. Then, if needed be, restrict Gifts.

What can they do now:
- Do the same as above, but backwards - well, it isn't the end of the world. The Restricted list isn't irrevocable. They can simply watch the metagame evolve with Flash, FS, 4xGushes and no Gifts and then, in a few months, just say "Yeah, let's unrestrict Gifts again"; or "My bad, Gush is still too powerful", etc, etc, etc
Well, my 2 cents

[Chamelet]

Gush also loses most of its restrictability if Will is banned.   Fact definitely so as well.

Please man, let's stay "on topic". I mean, on restriction topic. Forget about advocating for Will's banning, please, please... You've been doing this for years now and the subject of banning something is another long, long discussion not pertinent here.

ps: just to add here, I'm one of those guys who thinks the thinner the List is, the better the game gets. So restricting something should be very, very, very, (I repeat) very well based. Like something you can't run from.

[jcb193]

I think the discussion of how some restrictions "took 12 months, etc" is a little dramatic.  We need to keep in mind that this format doesn't even have regular touraments monthly, let alone quarterly.  3 months in vintage is like 24 hours of standard.  The DCI has nothing else to look at other than message boards, european results, and a few waterbury's or SCG P9.  Which is why so much of this discussion is speculation.

If we had to suffer through a bad quarter of T1 Magic, it would be over in a few tournaments. 

[Imsomniac101]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion, but I do believe that your choice of facts to illustrate your point is off-base.  Even if Flash had not won Grand Prix: Colombus or put 3 decks into the Top 8, it still would probably have been restricted.  The DCI community didn't restrict Flash because it would have necessarily won every tournament; they restricted it because the entire grassroots Legacy network was essentially unanimous in their opinion that Flash would have to go.  On the other hand, as indicated by this thread alone, there is a good deal of controversy on the subject of the Vintage B&R list.  Only when a player community is unanimous should the DCI take it seriously.  Until then, we are just people on the Internet, voicing our disparate opinions.

I read Forsythe's comments and they basically stated that Flash warped the environment. The community made some noise, the DCI agreed, and the card was banned. The DCI did not ban Flash just because the community was up in arms. They obviously put some thought into it. If the DCI just decided to randomly ban/restrict cards based on the whimsy of the community, Vintage would be a disaster.

That's why some of us are really worried about the restriction of Gifts.

[Shock Wave]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion, but I do believe that your choice of facts to illustrate your point is off-base.  Even if Flash had not won Grand Prix: Colombus or put 3 decks into the Top 8, it still would probably have been restricted.  The DCI community didn't restrict Flash because it would have necessarily won every tournament; they restricted it because the entire grassroots Legacy network was essentially unanimous in their opinion that Flash would have to go.  On the other hand, as indicated by this thread alone, there is a good deal of controversy on the subject of the Vintage B&R list.  Only when a player community is unanimous should the DCI take it seriously.  Until then, we are just people on the Internet, voicing our disparate opinions.

I read Forsythe's comments and they basically stated that Flash warped the environment. The community made some noise, the DCI agreed, and the card was banned. The DCI did not ban Flash just because the community was up in arms. They obviously put some thought into it. If the DCI just decided to randomly ban/restrict cards based on the whimsy of the community, Vintage would be a disaster.

That's why some of us are really worried about the restriction of Gifts.

Well, Gifts is at least a borderline case for restriction. It is an extremely powerful card, and the DCI has decided that it is restriction worthy. Some people are just going to disagree. I'm on the fence about it, so whatever they decided to do about it wouldn't make a difference to me. Either way, this is not an example of the DCI banning something without any basis whatsoever.

[Moxlotus]

Either way, this is not an example of the DCI banning something without any basis whatsoever.

The thign is, every card that has been suggested for restriction over the past year has had basis.  Dark Ritual fuels too many turn 1 kills.  Shop is a resuable black lotus.  Rector is a tutor for Bargain.  Bazaar of Baghdad draws 2 cards each turn!  Mask cheats uncounterable 12/12s into play for 1 mana.  In each case the metagame adapted.  I don't see how Gifts is any different than any other of the very powerful cards that are borderline, but coexist together to form a balanced metagame.

[Liam-K]

Personally I think the fact Gifts costs 4 mana in the modern vintage environment makes it almost like a Doomsday unless the game has gone on so long Drain should be winning anyway... it's pretty difficult even in Ritual Gifts to mainphase gifts in the early turns and pull out tendrils=20.  The fact you have to wait for an opposing endstep to fit in the untap slows it down more than the +1 mana from Grim Tutor makes you expect.  This is the weakness with the card I've found that reduces it from bananas to really good.  You're forced to play it later, so you're forced to play control.  And control decks are supposed to have slower, splashier cards that are the reward for being on the defensive in the earlier stages of the game. 

I have a hard time coming to the conclusion that Gifts as a card was so fast for its effect nothing else could stand a fighting chance without heavily metagaming against it.

I also don't understand the three step process of 1) (accidentally?) turbocharge a sideboard-distorting archetype that heavily encourages randomness 2) unleash a very fast, stable combo deck 3) kill the top control deck.  It's not like they shouldn't have noticed what was going on between 2 and 3.

[Stamford]

Am I the only one who has noticed this line by Stephen Menendian?

I think on Monday, June 18th, when I unveil my proudest achievement, you'll see that Gifts had nothing to do with it and that there was all the more reason why Gifts shouldn't have been restricted.

So any hints or guesses about what the proudest achievement is? Another format-breaking deck that requires reasonable skill to pilot like MDG or some broken interaction that the others have not discovered about?

[Shock Wave]

Either way, this is not an example of the DCI banning something without any basis whatsoever.

The thign is, every card that has been suggested for restriction over the past year has had basis.  Dark Ritual fuels too many turn 1 kills.  Shop is a resuable black lotus.  Rector is a tutor for Bargain.  Bazaar of Baghdad draws 2 cards each turn!  Mask cheats uncounterable 12/12s into play for 1 mana.  In each case the metagame adapted.  I don't see how Gifts is any different than any other of the very powerful cards that are borderline, but coexist together to form a balanced metagame.

The problem is that when we talk about "basis", we're not referring to any established system or criteria. The only basis that counts is the DCI's opinion. Out of all the card's you've mentioned, none of them were ever metagame warping or dominant, not in the eyes of the players and certainly not in the eyes of the DCI. It is arguable that Gifts had been dominant up until the Ichorid/Flash period.

Also, while it's fine and dandy that the metagame can adapt to B&R changes, we have to draw the line between adapting and warping. Sure, we can adapt to a heavy Ichorid/Flash metagame by running 4 Leylines in every sideboard, but is that healthy? We can adapt to any B&R change. We could adapt to Black Lotus becoming unrestricted. We'd all just have to run 4 Chalice main and other foolishness. At what point does the fact that we can adapt become a secondary consideration to keeping a format interactive, balanced, and diverse?

[vikingPotes]

I felt kinda strongly about this topic so I made an account for basically just this purpose and I just want to reiterate some of the things others have said.

As a disclaimer, I will approach this from an intuitive standpoint because I think that stephen does a more comprehensive job of doing the straight logical standpoint than I have the time for these days and (although I personally enjoy that type of view than others) because I think that people generally feel that the intuitive standpoint is more easy to relate to and read.

To begin with so you know where I stand, I disagree with the restriction.

My reasons are as follows: firstly, gifts is not too powerful; secondly, gifts is more fun than other decks.

1: I haven't seen a good argument for Gifts being too powerful.  I feel that power must be considered with respect for peers, and I don't think that it has been too powerful in comparison to the things that other decks can do.  One serious issue is that people generally feel that they lose a lot to gifts, and that gifts decks do too well.  Someone mentioned in reply to the numbers shown by stephen that the fact that it does so well despite the low percentages shows that it is too good.  But the problem here is that it is very difficult to distinguish whether a deck is too good or a person is good.  How can we distinguish between a good deck in a good player's hands versus a deck that is too good in a good player's hands?  Clearly, (from a format I'm familiar with) affinity and skullclamp were an example where something was simply too good because poor players were doing well simply on the basis of the deck.  However, I argue that mostly any drain deck, or deck of the same variety, takes a considerable amount of skill to play.  For example, recognizing what are the true threats etc. 

Another thing is that Feinstein, who through a friend of mine I have some respect for, suffers from a problem here which is somewhat similar to what I have outlined.  I think that good players generally like decks with drain and do well with them.  It is not surprising that Feinstein, a good player, will play against these types of decks because of the way the swiss system works.  Good players eventually play against other good players.  Consequently, if good players are playing gifts and winning with them, it is not unexpected that Feinstein would play against them, playing fish and winning with it. 

If I play against a large number of fish decks, its not because those decks are too powerful, but because the good players enjoy it.

Sure, at my (and possibly yours) metagame gifts is a dominant good deck.  But is that just because the best player thinks its the most fun?  Does that player do well with other decks?  At my metagame, the best players do well with gifts, but also with other decks if they decide to play them (not often but sometimes). 

While I remember, I don't understand the allusions to gifts to fof or intuition.  Particular intuition.  I can see why you would, but they aren't the same card.  The restriction on choices makes the cards entirely different.  Intuition is more powerful because it can be gifts-esque getting recoup lotus will or whatever but it can also demonic tutor in a way that gifts can not.  and this at more mana.

2:  I expect some of you to have blown your top to the first mention of this but I reiterate: gifts is more fun.

Why do I think so?  It is because it exemplifies everything I like about the game.  Firstly, it involves choices.  Many choices.  Choices ahoy!  I dun do like 'em choices.  During gameplay, the question "what do I get?" is somewhat overlooked.  Certainly, the cards you get to win are basically set in stone, but you can't always just go for it, what do you get otherwise?  Then, what can the opponent give you? Sure, when the gifts player (I'm gonna go ahead and call her Ms. S) casts gifts for the nuts/game win, then there is little that the opponent (Lets call her Ms. F) can do.  However, this is certainly not unique to gifts!  rather, I would argue that EVERY deck (with the exception of fish as a deck that is reactive in development and not proactive) is the same way in type one.  Every deck wins when it does its nuts.  That is part of what Type 1 is.  However, gifts takes more choices to set up.  Taking the trinisphere argument, the "setup" for trinisphere is playing workshop and trinisphere.  A two card combo that, short of FoW, can't be dealt with.  Or, more currently, Ichorid takes the "setup" of mulling to bazzaar as almost quite literally the only choice available.  Oath w/orchard, long/teps variants w/rit rit rit tendrils and so forth.  Moreover, as gifts allows for more choices in deckbuilding, allowing for choices in silver bullets and interesting combinations.  For choices, gifts is one of the best cards ever printed in magic history.

gifts decks don't generally kill on turn 1.  or 2.  or 3.  They usually take some time to get going.  Leading to more interaction between the players.  How fun is it to be under the sphere?  or to watch your opponent mull to 3 so she can get bazaar.  I die a little inside every time I see that because I know that war (or blackjack if you prefer as an example) is about to be played.  Even though I have made a deck choice that incites interaction between players, it'll just be me and my hand for this round.

Some complaints have been lodged already in this thread about gifts being unfun.  I am curious as to what you consider to be fun.  every time I play against ichorid or workshops I feel like my opponent makes no choices whatsoever and just plays with the top card of their graveyard/library (why I prefer war as an analogy).  My favorite matches are grueling showdowns between myself and fish or gifts or drain decks.  You may lose, but you have spent your time playing magic, which is what I'm there to do.

There you have some of my reasons for keeping gifts.  I hope that some of you found it interesting or new and I truly hope that I persuaded some of you.  I agree with Stephen that this is a simple case of whether gifts should or should not be restricted and I hope to have added something new to the argument against.

And for those of you who think that DCI won't listen to anything I say so this is all pointless, such a defeatist attitude is what leads to poor decisions running any type of government (which is what the DCI realistically is).  The government should (and I believe DCI makes an effort to) listen to the citizens and take it under consideration.  The questions by Forsythe is an exellent example of this.  I think they made a poor choice of restricting gifts and I hope they listen to the community here and are convinced to unrestrict it.

Thank you for reading my post,
Viking Potes

[Moxlotus]

Either way, this is not an example of the DCI banning something without any basis whatsoever.

The thign is, every card that has been suggested for restriction over the past year has had basis.  Dark Ritual fuels too many turn 1 kills.  Shop is a resuable black lotus.  Rector is a tutor for Bargain.  Bazaar of Baghdad draws 2 cards each turn!  Mask cheats uncounterable 12/12s into play for 1 mana.  In each case the metagame adapted.  I don't see how Gifts is any different than any other of the very powerful cards that are borderline, but coexist together to form a balanced metagame.

The problem is that when we talk about "basis", we're not referring to any established system or criteria. The only basis that counts is the DCI's opinion. Out of all the card's you've mentioned, none of them were ever metagame warping or dominant, not in the eyes of the players and certainly not in the eyes of the DCI. It is arguable that Gifts had been dominant up until the Ichorid/Flash period.

Shop decks were never warping or dominant?  Dark Ritual was never warping?  Lots of people weren't calling for their restriction at some point or another?  My memory is a little different than yours.

I know that is the problem about talking about a "basis"--I'm just using your own words and showing how everything you say about Gifts can and has applied to lots of other cards in the past.

[Shock Wave]

Shop decks were never warping or dominant?  Dark Ritual was never warping?  Lots of people weren't calling for their restriction at some point or another?  My memory is a little different than yours.

I'm not talking about random calls for restriction. If I were to post "Hey, let's restrict Tarpan!" with any seriousness in this thread, that would not qualify as a legitimate or dignified call for restriction. That's just nonsense. I'm talking about serious discussion within the community akin to the discussion regarding the restriction for Gifts. There has never been a respected argument on this board for the restriction of Mishra's Workshop. Yes, people have spouted out random garble at times, but has there ever been a formal debate for Shop restriction in which more than a few people with sound reasoning were actually considering it? Show me that thread. You can't point to Trinisphere and say that Mishra's Workshop was the culprit, because this was not the case. Mishra's Workshop has never caused the "warping" of a metagame. Dark Ritual has never warped a metagame. The definition of warping is when a card defines or shapes a metagame all by itself. Flash in Legacy was warping. Trinisphere was warping. Dark Ritual and Mishra's Workshop have never had such effects.

I know that is the problem about talking about a "basis"--I'm just using your own words and showing how everything you say about Gifts can and has applied to lots of other cards in the past.

Yeah, I don't see how I can argue that. I mean, I can post about how I think Gifts is too powerful and someone else can post about how Mountain Goat is too powerful. Since we don't have an established system for gauging the power level of a card, the result in this thread is that everyone presents their arguments about why Gifts does or does not fit into their own personal set of criteria for restriction. What's done is done though, and won't be undone for at least 3 months and probably more, so let's ease up on the poor horse. He was dead like 15 posts ago.

[Imsomniac101]

Shock Wave:

Show me a thread where there was a serious discussion calling for the restriction of Gifts?

[Shock Wave]

Shock Wave:

Show me a thread where there was a serious discussion calling for the restriction of Gifts?

It has been mentioned. A lot. Whether there has been a thread dedicated to calling for its head, I'm not quite certain, but there has been a significant amount of discussion about it. That doesn't mean that just because there has been discussion about it that there is enough reason to restrict it, but I think it's fair to say that if enough members of the community can present compelling arguments for its restriction, that it is at least a borderline case.

[yespuhyren]

I've discussed before on many occasions on various threads that gifts should be dealt with.    I've always believed that it was overpowered.  Maybe Gifts isn't as strong now with Ichorid/Flash, but it should be dealt with just in case.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Show me a thread where there was a serious discussion calling for the restriction of Gifts?

The problem, both with this question, and with Shockwave's reasoning goes back to something shockwave brought up himself: DCI doesn't care about what we discuss in threads here, no matter how well reasoned.

It seems they care about another point Shockwave brought up, metagame distortion.  Say what you want about workshops, the only time I saw them in large numbers doing well was while trinisphere was around (and they weren't doing THAT well).  As for dark ritual, forget about it.  Long was lucky to get LED and BWish restricted, because that deck wasn't really that good, it just bent way too many rules in a vacuum.  I've never played in a metagame where ritual based decks made up more than 20%.  The problem with blue based cards that bend rules is that they do it often, played by lots of players, and with resilience to most of the cards in the format.

There's a wierd interaction where mana drain (forget about threats for a minute) prohibits most of the good hate against blue based decks (e.g, in the eye of chaos, nether void), however DCI will negate engine parts which abet decks with these shells in order to maintain a mana drain monopoly in T1 that isn't too broken.  It's the next level of T1 balance after the FoW premium.

[acidfreak]

I think the DCI considered Gifts too powerful and that they kind of unrestricted Gush (which let's be honest is good but not spectacular unless you get your single copy of fastbond) so that there would be at least one viable control deck in the combo/graveyard happy metagame. (Even though playing against ichorid or flash has very little to do with 'control' and almost comes down to do-you-have-leyline-or-not with a FoW or Duress backup). Tbh i like type 1 less now than a month ago.

[Liam-K]

To those who say this discussion is pointless:

Steve linked this article in the OP, in which Buehler discusses the meeting that lead to the restrictions of LED and Burning Wish.  The most fascinating/disturbing point in the article to me was mentioned merely in passing; long.dec was built and demo'd.

The people who decided the deck was unfair didn't actually know what it did until maybe a couple hours before they killed it, let alone understood how it actually performed against the field.  When the top decks are completely news to someone, their descision making process regarding control of that metagame is going to need a little guidance.

[Smmenen]

Say what you want about workshops, the only time I saw them in large numbers doing well was while trinisphere was around (and they weren't doing THAT well).  As for dark ritual, forget about it.  Long was lucky to get LED and BWish restricted, because that deck wasn't really that good, it just bent way too many rules in a vacuum. 

I wasn't gonna say anything more in this thread, as most of th heated debate had run its course or wasn't worth responding to, but this is wrong on two counts.

first, workshops did incredibly well only after trinisphere was restricted - winning two major scgs, the vintage champs, and then the waterbury - all within 7 months of trinisphere's restriction. 

second, long was actually that good - in fact, it is probably the strongest deck ever created in the last 10 years.   in the battle of the banned decks, i was triple countered on turn one by bbs and still won the game.  he had turn one sapphire, island with drain double force (two blue spells to pitch) and then fact on turn two.   and if i split the fact correctly, i win the game.   i would love to ante a game with you - you can play any deck in vintage history versus me playing long.dec, but the truth is that i can't play that deck at all anymore.  I used t be amazing with it, but i picked it up again a year ago and i had no idea what i was doing.   

People who were good with long.dec know how insane that deck was.   

EDIT: Clarified a point that might have been misconstrued as a flame. -Z

[Moxlotus]

Do recall that the main argument for restricting Crucible was that it was warping when part of a Trinisphere environment. Do recall that we advocated for Trinisphere's restriction, and said that if Trinisphere were to go, Crucible could remain.

I forgot about this:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=20413.0

These quotes make me believe you wanted Crucible restricted regardless of trinpshere was out.

And let's be clear here. Rich and I *never* suggested that CoW was too broken for T1. Instead it is too random (much like Trinisphere) and quite distortive.  Sure, it is *so easy* to hedge against it, and like jp points out it is its own hoser, but that doesn't make it any less random.

Rich and I have played way too many matches that were decided in the most stupid of ways via braindead CoW locks/partial locks (and lets toss in Trini in there as well

This is an exaggeration, and you know it.

Even if you "adapt", you can fall prey to a mindless lock. Plus, what you call adaptation I call the results of distortion - purposefully weakening color consistency in order to deal with non-basic hate. There are very few decks in the environment that are strong enough to compete while hedging successfully against CoW locks - we have mono-U and now Meandeck Oath, but apart from that there's really nothing else

Sure, now that control seems to have "evolved" (I would prefer the term degenerated) into combo/control, Crucible may no longer be an issue. That still remains to be seen.

The point is though that no matter what I do (apart from flat out playing mono-U), I can still get CoW locked or Trini locked in the most random, stupid of ways. Does this mean that I lose to CoW or Trini on a regular basis? Quite clearly no, because I deem them not worthy to hedge against. So what am I annoyed about then? The fact that CoW and Trinisphere (and don't get me going about Belcher, because why that card/deck is still in the environment is beyond me) push the balance past acceptable limits for randomness. T1 is already random enough, and the argument that "this is T1, broken things happen" is a cop out. I'd like to retain as much skill as possible in this format, despite that T1 is based predominantly more on luck than skill already. Why make things even worse.

Death to Belcher, Trinisphere, and CoW.

Anyways, if I can consistently T8 with a deck that runs 4 CoW and hose people so early and to the point where the game is out of their reach, often by Turn 3, I'd say that's a substantial amount of proof.  I don't feel the need to articulate why Crucible is broken. I can recognize a broken mechanic after using it to crush opponents in almost 10 events, consistently. Of course, you can resort to calling the Canadian metagame inferior, but I claimed a lot of American heads at Gencon, so arguing that it is "metagame specific" doesn't work. Certain mechanics are broken regardless of the metagame.

Ok, enough quotes from that thread--but I suggest everybody (re)read it.  A number of stuff about Belcher in there too.   I only went through part of the second page on the quotes.

I'm seeing sooooooooooo many parallels of that thread to this one.

edit:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=20536.0

Restricting Crucible does not imply that we need to look for more cards to restrict. Of the cards you've mentioned above, none have ever raised ire from the community in the way Crucible has

Why are people suggesting that just because we might find three specific cards problematic (Trini, CoW, and a combo fast piece - Ritual is my suggestion