Dan_in_a_Can
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« Reply #90 on: August 28, 2007, 07:13:53 pm » |
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I've been playing around with Bomberman for a little over a month now, switching over from SS. In the current environment, SS just can't stand up to GAT and flash, along with just about any other combo deck. This is my decklist that i'm running, and it's working well:
Artifacts 1x Mox Emerald 1x Mox Pearl 1x Mox Ruby 1x Mox Jet 1x Mox Sapphire 1x Black Lotus 1x Mana Crypt 1x Sensei's Divining Top 1x Engineered Explosives 1x Aether Spellbomb 1x Sol Ring 1x Tormod's Crypt 1x Pithing Needle
Land: 3x Tundra 3x Island 1x Plains 3x Flooded Strand 2x Polluted Delta 1x Tolarian Academy 1x Library of Alexandria
Creatures: 3x Aven Mindcensor 3x Auriok Salvager 4x Trinket Mage
Instants 4x Force of Will 4x Brainstorm 3x Mana Drain 1x Echoing Truth 2x Misdirection 1x Ancestral Recall 1x Intuiton 1x Cunning Wish 2x Thirst for Knowledge 1x Mystical Tutor
Sorceries 1x Time Walk 2x Merchant Scroll
SB: 1x Brain Freeze 1x Chain of Vapor 4x Leyline of Singularity 2x Magus of the Disk 2x Hurkyl's Recall 1x Disenchant 1x Seal of Cleansing 2x Exalted Angel 1x Chalice of the Void
How does it look to you guys? Like I said, i'm still fairly new to the deck, althoug I'm doing well with playtesting, being that my current meta consists of Stax, Ichorid, Flash, GAT, Slaver, and a couple of home brews.
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Wagner
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« Reply #91 on: August 28, 2007, 09:07:41 pm » |
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I'm stil not sure about the Mystical Tutor, basically its another Merchant Scroll with -1 card advantage since all your target are blue instants.
With that many colorless in the Deck 4 Drains is probably a good idea.
With Dryad + Slivers/Carrion Feeder needing an answer quickly, running more than 1 Spellbomb can be useful.
What is Pithing Needle for exactly?
I don'T really like your side, in what matchups are Angels good for, why 1 Seal and 1 Disenchant? If you think you will face a lot of Stacks, Energy FLux is usually better than Hurkyll's Recall.
Also, do you end up comboing a lot without a Spellbomb and with Cunning Wish in hand? If not the Cunning Wish or the Brainfreeze should be cut.
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slyfer
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sky dragon
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« Reply #92 on: August 29, 2007, 02:47:57 am » |
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a guy in italy made the final in a 63 person tournament (ancestral recall alpha to the winner) with this bomberman. There were a considerable presence of flash deck (sliver, disciple and kiki, so various forms) and some icorid. I think artifact was not so present, so maybe flux in sideboard are a bit wasted....
// Lands 4 Tundra 3 Island 1 Plains 4 Flooded Strand 1 Polluted Delta 1 Tolarian Academy 1 Library of Alexandria
// Creatures 3 Auriok Salvagers 4 Trinket Mage 3 Aven Mindcensor 2 Jotun Grunt
// Spells 3 Thirst for Knowledge 4 Brainstorm 4 Mana Drain 4 Force of Will 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Time Walk 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 AEther Spellbomb 1 Tormod's Crypt 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Crypt 3 Merchant Scroll 1 Echoing Truth 1 Pithing Needle 1 Misdirection
// Sideboard SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt SB: 1 Engineered Explosives SB: 1 Pithing Needle SB: 1 Chain of vapor SB: 3 Energy Flux SB: 2 Trickbind SB: 2 Disenchant SB: 1 Balance SB: 3 Meddling Mage
Round 1: RW orange goblin 2-0 1-0 Round 2: tyrant oath 2-0 2-0 Round 3: icorid 2-0 game 1 he previously knew his opponent deck and played trinket for tormod on the play. opponent plaed leyline+chalice+led. game 2 no chalice for icorid, only bazaar, bomberman started with tormod+grunt then auriok gg (chalices were fow/disenchanted) 3-0 Round 4: tyrantoath 1-2 3-1 Round 5: ws slavery 2-0 a gift: game 1 won by irregular decklist, game 2 won by mulligan to the hell 4-1 Round 6: dark pentastax (with confidant, welders, ecc..) 2-0 flux was game, 2 games won by comboing 5-1 Quarters: tyrantoath (very weak player) 2-1 (game lost by bad draws) Semifinal: tyrantoath 2-0 Final: UGW threshold (no power, chalice maindeck, null rod sideboard, mage, 2x aven, tarmogoyf etc...don't have yet the exact list) 1-2 a game was lost by null rod, even after resolving an ancestral recall. This particular matchup is very bad and very less played in any metagame at the moment.
Overall the pairing were a bit biased on oath (in italy we ALL play tyrant oath, no one plays ICBM oath with chalice maindeck, we have duress maindeck and 3 chalice in side), no flash encountered, anyway the deck is well balanced in the current metagame. We still play gift deck (with dark confidant+merchant and duress+drain+fow wins by empty+toa, OR another version without confidant), and we found that it is still competitive (even if clearly underpowered after restriction) I think there were few growatog (I think in US there is a massive presence of grow at the moment, looking your sideboards), but I am sure next months will see a rise of this deck in italy.
the top8 were: 1) Bomberman .. 15 pti 2) GushTendrils ............. 15 pti 3) RG belcher+empty the warrens................ 15 pti 4) TyrantOath ............. 14 pti 5) ControlComboSoup.deck (65 cards deck)............ 14 pti 6) Flash powered............. 13 pti 7) TarmoShit unpowered (the winner).............. 13 pti 8) TyrantOath .. 13 pti
9) Flash powered 13 10) Gift deck ("classical" , no confidant) 13
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Dan_in_a_Can
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« Reply #93 on: August 29, 2007, 02:59:56 am » |
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I'm stil not sure about the Mystical Tutor, basically its another Merchant Scroll with -1 card advantage since all your target are blue instants.
With that many colorless in the Deck 4 Drains is probably a good idea.
With Dryad + Slivers/Carrion Feeder needing an answer quickly, running more than 1 Spellbomb can be useful.
What is Pithing Needle for exactly?
I don'T really like your side, in what matchups are Angels good for, why 1 Seal and 1 Disenchant? If you think you will face a lot of Stacks, Energy FLux is usually better than Hurkyll's Recall.
Also, do you end up comboing a lot without a Spellbomb and with Cunning Wish in hand? If not the Cunning Wish or the Brainfreeze should be cut.
As far as Mystical Tutor is concerned, I like it because of the fact that it's an instant. IE: I can play it at the end of my opponents turn, instead of casting merchant scroll and being too low on mana. I originally had 4 drains in the deck, but cut 1 to add cunning wish so I had an alternate win condition if say my spellbomb was extirpated or extracted. With cards like echoing truth maindeck, and chain in the SB, I felt that I had enough bounce to take care of dryads etc. Also, post board, I bring in Leyline and chain maindeck. I'll give the deck a try with another spellbomb though. Needle can be an effective tool against cards like Carrion Feeder(Along with Kiki-Jiki), Goblin Welder, Mindslaver, and even fetches (I've won due to locking down an opponents delta, and he didnt draw enough mana to be effective.) I've also used it against Karn to prevent my board from being wiped. The Angels are there for the mirror match. Seal is there as a pre-emptive measure against decks that run null rod, sphere of resistance, and 3-sphere. Disenchant is for any other spot removal, or being fetched with Cunning Wish. Energy flux IMO can be a double-edged sword. If I can't pay for my own artifacts, then a good stax player can just outrun me, or bring in a single Sundering Titan to beat me down in 2-3 turns via welder. Cunning wish is there to get Hurkyl's Recall, Disenchant, and chain if I need the extra bounce against a leyline of the void. I find that also being able to scroll or mystical for Cunning wish, then grabbing Brain freeze is an easier win, especially if my spellbomb is somehow RFG. I'll give cutting Mystical and adding the 4th drain, along with playtesting energy flux, and the 2nd spellbomb. Thanks for the feedback and advice
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Wagner
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« Reply #94 on: August 29, 2007, 02:24:18 pm » |
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What I meant to say is that when Ancestral Recall is gone, you have no excellent target for Mystical, and in a close match, that -1 card advantage will become relevant.
For the Needle, those are good targets, but for matchups that are not usually encountered a lot, I think it's more of a sideboard card. As for naming Fetches, most people run Delta and/or Strands, so naming them would be risky. It's great that you won a match because you screwed someone, but that doesn't mean that the card has it's place, I played with Needle for some time and naming a Fetch never seemed like the optimal play so I think that option is limited.
In the Mirror matchup exalted Angel is not that good, the winner will be decided on card advantage or on the first player that can resolve a Salvagers and untap. Keep in mind that by the time the Angel will be lethal, you give your opponent enough time to Thirst Twice, bounce the Angel and cast a Salvager and take control of the game, even with no Lotus. In the mirror, it's very important to keep your things from getting Drained and to stop any Salvager from touching the table, that's why I like Swords a lot in that matchup, costs little, easy to back and usually catches your opponent by surprise.
Concerning that report, that MEtagame seems nice for Bomberman since Tyran Oath is a very easy matchup. You have more counters than they do, you can combo easier than they can and they have very little disruption against you, compared to ICBM Oath. Swords and Spellbombs usually give you enough time to deal with a second Oath activation and T. Crypt at the right time can wreck them. IF you are playing Meddling Mages then it's even easier.
I am still not convinced about the Scrolls though, I currently play Mana Leak instead and I see little reason why scroll is so much better, could someone explain?
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slyfer
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« Reply #95 on: August 29, 2007, 02:48:56 pm » |
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Concerning that report, that MEtagame seems nice for Bomberman since Tyran Oath is a very easy matchup. You have more counters than they do, Italian Tyrant Oath is different from american. We use 4 force 4 drain 3 remand 3 duress 2 cunning wish. Remand is strong vs 3cc/4cc sorcery-speed cards you can combo easier than they can No, because oath is 1 card combo (we play creatures), Bomberman is 3 card combo and they have very little disruption against you, compared to ICBM Oath. yeah chalice maindeck is stronger but duress/remand do a good disruption too Swords and Spellbombs usually give you enough time to deal with a second Oath activation and T. Crypt at the right time can wreck them. IF you are playing Meddling Mages then it's even easier. Yes, tormod can do funny things, sometimes they lose by decking themselves if tyrant is in the last cards and graveyard is removed. Or they lose the race because they have no spell for bounce. Mage is good. I fear massacre by the way. I am still not convinced about the Scrolls though, I currently play Mana Leak instead and I see little reason why scroll is so much better, could someone explain? I think it can find faster solution compared to trinket. merchant+echoing, or merchant+hurkil/chain/rebuild is faster than the trinket way with e.e., bomb, colorless mana and stuffs
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islanderboi10
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« Reply #96 on: September 13, 2007, 09:13:32 am » |
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So, I have a few questions.
What do you sideboards look like?
is Leyline worth a slot? And could someone possibly explain how to sideboard with this deck?
Thanks a lot.
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Wagner
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« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2007, 05:02:40 pm » |
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Since the deck can already deal so-so with Ichorid and since Ichorid is now rarely played, I wouln't put a set of Black leylines in the side, however I am currently trying the blue leylines which are as good against Ichorid and Flash + can be cast more easily.
Other than that I always include 3-4 StP for random Fish/Goblin/Sui matchups. If your meta has a lot of Oath put MEddling/KAmi of the Ancient Law. If is has a lot of Stax, load up on Energy FLux. If there is a lot of combo, go for Orim's Chant.
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islanderboi10
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« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2007, 05:08:30 pm » |
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Since the deck can already deal so-so with Ichorid and since Ichorid is now rarely played, I wouln't put a set of Black leylines in the side, however I am currently trying the blue leylines which are as good against Ichorid and Flash + can be cast more easily.
Other than that I always include 3-4 StP for random Fish/Goblin/Sui matchups. If your meta has a lot of Oath put MEddling/KAmi of the Ancient Law. If is has a lot of Stax, load up on Energy FLux. If there is a lot of combo, go for Orim's Chant.
I see. and the deck is definetly viable, correct? thanks a lot. EDIT: So this is the most recent list that I have found: Bomberman 3 Auriok Salvagers 3 Aven Mindcensor 4 Trinket Mage 4 Force of Will 4 Mana Drain 2 Misdirection 2 Thirst for Knowledge 4 Brainstorm 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Time Walk 3 Repeal 2 AEther Spellbomb 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Tormod's Crypt 1 Chalice of the Void 5 Moxen 1 Lotus 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Crypt 4 Tundra 4 Flooded Strand 1 Strip Mine 1 Library of Alexandria/Tolarian Academy 5 Island 1 Plains SIDEBOARD: 4 Spell Snare 4 Swords to Plowshare 3 Energy Flux 2 kataki 1 Pithing Needle 1 Chalice of the Void I really like the Energy Flux+Kataki in the board. But how would you sideboard with this deck? Could Orim's Chant/Stifle/Trickbind be in the sideboard? Should they be in the sideboard? thanks a lot.
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« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 06:00:29 pm by islanderboi10 »
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Dan_in_a_Can
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« Reply #99 on: September 14, 2007, 10:08:41 pm » |
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This is the current sideboard that I'm using, being that my current meta is mainly GAT, with some flash, STAX, Ichorid, and Gobbos.
3x Spell Snare 4x Leyline of Singularity 2x Swords to Plowshares 1x Brain Freeze 1x Chain of Vapor 2x Hurkyl's Recall 1x Chalice of the Void 1x Disenchant
If I'm up against GAT, then I side in all three Spell Snares, and pull out mystical, 1 Mana Drain, and Cunning Wish. Also, i'll bring in 2 StP, and pull out Pithing Needle and 1 Trinket Mage. Stax brings in Chain, Disenchant, 2 Hurky'ls recall, and pulls out 2 Drains, 1 Misdirection, , and 1 Mystical. Gobbos bring in the leylines and chain. Flash brings in the leylines and chalice. I havn't been able to test the SB consistently, but this is what I would see myself doing in the matchups
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Two Fingas
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« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2007, 06:37:18 am » |
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I played a deck that ended up basically as a Bomberman variant at SCG P9 in Indy last weekend. I was looking at Bomberman lists, and then I looked at another thread on this site about a UR Trinket Magus deck. I really liked that deck and started with it, it played a lot of the same cards as Bomberman so I added Auriok Salvagers and Aether Spellbomb to the list and played it. Here is the list I played:
3 Aven Mindcensor 4 Magus of the Moon 4 Trinket Mage 2 Auriok Salvagers
1 Ancestral Recall 4 Brainstorm 1 Mystical Tutor 2 Red Elemental Blast 3 Stifle 1 Echoing Truth 1 Fire/Ice 4 Force of Will 2 Merchant Scroll 1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Aether Spellbomb 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Pithing Needle 1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Tundra 3 Volcanic Island 5 Island 1 Plains 4 Flooded Strand 1 Polluted Delta
SB 3 Flametongue Kavu 1 Platinum Angel 1 Pyroblast 1 Trickbind 3 Shattering Spree 1 Tinker 4 Leyline of the Void 1 Pithing Needle
My rounds went like this Goblins 2-0 GAT 2-0 Stax 2-0 UBR Empty the Warrens Control 1-1-1 Welder Control 0-2 Ichorid 2-1 GAT 2-1 Gush Tendrils 0-2
I finished in 17th place.
The deck performed very well all day, and the games I lost were mostly due to play mistakes and sideboarding mistakes due to a lack of sleep. Such as tapping out all my red with mana floating and the intention to cast Magus after another spell.
Magus of the Moon was really good in most of the games I saw him in, taking some players out of the games completely. Other times he would take someone off one color and that would be disruption enough to get me to the combo or win by beats.
Sensei's Divining Top was also spectacular. I played Mages early, ofter fetching that because I wasn't yet in need of one of the bullet artifacts. It also generally got me to the outs I needed.
Stifle is in the deck to stop early fetches while you are trying to drop Magus. It was useful in various other situations as well. I Stifled a turn 1 Lackey which got me to Fire/Ice on turn 2, and I should have played it less aggressively in the Gush Tendrils match and it might have helped me out.
In the SB, Leyline of the Void was awkward at times, not being able to play it except by Black Lotus, but in the matches where I brought it in I had it in the opener, or had a Trinket Mage to find the Lotus to play it.
Shattering Spree was effective when I used it, but I didn't need it often, another artifact removal spell may be more effective.
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islanderboi10
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« Reply #101 on: October 07, 2007, 03:23:32 pm » |
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This deck hasn't had much feedback lately, but...
I believe this is one of the better decks in the format, opinions? Should there be a color splash?
and also, what do you think Lorwyn's affect will be on this deck and the meta?
thanks
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LotusHead
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« Reply #102 on: October 07, 2007, 09:36:33 pm » |
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My teammate has been doing well with this build. It plays 2 maindeck Empty The Warrens, Tinker/Colossus and 3 Spellbombs. It's supposed to be a bit more combo-ish, hence full moxen, petal, even Lion's Eye Diamond, but obviously, at 62 cards, better players would cut down to 60 cards.
Anyways, maindeck ETW allows "comboing" through graveyard hate
Salvage the Warrens (62 cards)
1 Island 1 Plains 2 Volcanic Island 3 Tundra 1 Ancient Tomb 1 Tolarian Academy 1 Library at Alexandria 4 Flooded Strand 1 Polluted Delta 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emerald 1 Black Lotus 1 Lion's Eye Diamond 1 Mana Crypt 1 Sol Ring 1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will 2 Misdirection 2 Mana Drain 1 Ancestral Recall 4 Brainstorm 3 Thirst for Knowledge 1 DarkSteel Colossus 4 Auriok Salvagers 4 Trinket Mage
2 Empty the Warrens 2 Aether Spellbomb 1 Pyrite Spellbomb 1 Time Walk 1 Tinker 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Repeal 1 Echoing Truth 1 Timetwister
SB 3 Red Elemental Blast 4 Leyline of the Void 3 Ghostly Prison 2 Energy Flux 2 Echoing Truth 1 Empty the Warrens
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islanderboi10
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« Reply #103 on: October 08, 2007, 12:09:52 am » |
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how has twister been working out for you?
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LotusHead
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« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2007, 12:20:12 am » |
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I've never not played TimeTwister in any Bomberman build, even in my Oath Salvager days. Mostly because I own a TimeTwister.
A month ago, Wheel of Fortune was in this build (along with TimeTwister), but when it came down to it, Wheel of Fortune sat in hand, and the pilot refused to play it, but TimeTwister was almost always played. (Probably do to Wheel of Fortune's interaction with Brainstorm and the topdeck tutors). Wheel became Empty The Warrens #2.
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islanderboi10
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« Reply #105 on: October 23, 2007, 12:10:09 am » |
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With the switch of the metagame(9 spheres and such) do you think Bomberman can compete?
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Wise
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« Reply #106 on: October 23, 2007, 12:41:14 am » |
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I would say I could, but it would have to become more aggro heavy, 3 - 4 mindsensors, and grunts, or possibly a come back of the UWb Bob Bomberman?
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"Who needs sexual intercourse when I have MTG?! I mean, this Giant of Azeraz has a 4 / 6, trample, and swamp walk."
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ketchupgun
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« Reply #107 on: October 23, 2007, 06:44:22 am » |
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SS just can't stand up to GAT and flash, along with just about any other combo deck not to threadjack but... I used to play SS alot. I can see it rolling over to Flash and GAT (or just about nay other creature deck) but "any other combo?" Wasn't SS built to roll combo? Just a little confused here.
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islanderboi10
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« Reply #108 on: October 23, 2007, 05:44:36 pm » |
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SS just can't stand up to GAT and flash, along with just about any other combo deck not to threadjack but... I used to play SS alot. I can see it rolling over to Flash and GAT (or just about nay other creature deck) but "any other combo?" Wasn't SS built to roll combo? Just a little confused here. it does Roll control decks pretty hard as well. Back on topic, So running the black splash and needing the deck to go more aggro? The match up I am most concerned about is the 9-13 Sphere decks out there right now.
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Outlaw
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« Reply #109 on: October 23, 2007, 10:34:51 pm » |
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SS just can't stand up to GAT and flash, along with just about any other combo deck not to threadjack but... I used to play SS alot. I can see it rolling over to Flash and GAT (or just about nay other creature deck) but "any other combo?" Wasn't SS built to roll combo? Just a little confused here. it does Roll control decks pretty hard as well. Back on topic, So running the black splash and needing the deck to go more aggro? The match up I am most concerned about is the 9-13 Sphere decks out there right now. Just remember that when they play thorns and you play little dorks its good for you. Confidants allow you to consistently flip things that can pull you out of a losing situation.
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Shaull
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« Reply #110 on: October 25, 2007, 03:39:50 pm » |
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What do you guys think of Calciderm? Does it have a shot here?
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breed
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« Reply #111 on: October 25, 2007, 03:43:20 pm » |
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IMHO, playing a 5/5 creature (who does nothing broken) wich cost 4 manas in Bomberman or in Vintage is not really a good idea.
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islanderboi10
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« Reply #112 on: December 24, 2007, 01:56:08 pm » |
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Sorry for the thread necro.
Bomberman just put someone in the top 4. Here is the list:
3rd - Oliver Medina - Bomberman
Maindeck: 4 Flooded Strand 4 Island 1 Library of Alexandria 1 Plains 1 Polluted Delta 1 Tolarian Academy 4 Tundra 3 Auriok Salvagers 3 Aven Mindcensor 1 Darksteel Colossus 4 Trinket Mage 1 Æther Spellbomb 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Black Lotus 4 Brainstorm 1 Echoing Truth 1 Engineered Explosives 4 Force of Will 1 Mana Crypt 4 Mana Drain 2 Merchant Scroll 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Sol Ring 2 Thirst for Knowledge 1 Time Walk 1 Tinker 1 Tormod's Crypt
Sideboard: 3 Meddling Mage 2 Annul 2 Pithing Needle 3 Spell Snare 3 Swords to Plowshares 2 Tormod's Crypt
Plus, bomberman has been randomly top 8ing at tournaments. With the rise of shop decks, could it be time for Bomberman to come back? Also, is there any new cards that should be considered for Bomberman?
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hitman
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« Reply #113 on: December 24, 2007, 06:08:01 pm » |
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Tinker/Darksteel Colossus seems horrible. Why wouldn't you just run one Dreadnought and tutor it up with Trinket Mage. The list already plays Merchant Scroll to tutor Stifle as well. Cut Mystical, Tinker, and Colossus; add two Stifle and a Dreadnought.
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islanderboi10
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« Reply #114 on: December 24, 2007, 06:25:37 pm » |
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Not my list, it was a list that recently top 8ed.
Stifle and dreadnought a good choice for the deck?
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SonataOfTheCathedral
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« Reply #115 on: December 24, 2007, 07:42:03 pm » |
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A theoretic return of Bomberman is interesting, since people are opting for Aggro decks and Shop decks. But I wouldn't recommend it for a large tournament, since the more serious players will play the more powerful Gush archetypes and Bomberman will lose to those. A lot of people have been playing more fun decks since they are just plain sick of playing Gush. Bomberman will beat those decks for sure. But when a large tournament comes around, I wouldn't run it.
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LotusHead
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« Reply #116 on: December 24, 2007, 08:03:18 pm » |
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I think TInker/Colossus is fine for Bomberman. and Stifle/Dreadnaught is less of an "oops, I win" than Tinker Colossus is.
I've been running a random Future Sight in my current build (URW ETW Bomberman) because Bomberman players ALWAYS see a Black Lotus every game. If Future sight hits the field, the Bomberman player has a HUGE advantage. (Much like Kowal's Slaver list (or Hi-Val, I forget).
With Sensei's Divining top, you can cycle your deck to goodness.
Hey, it's just one slot!
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hitman
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1000% SRSLY
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« Reply #117 on: December 24, 2007, 08:58:45 pm » |
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You really can't really on an "oops, I win" scenario. I've found the best way to beat GAT is to resolve a Salvagers and ride any utility artifact to the win. All they have to do for Colossus is Scroll for Echoing Truth. However, if you wasted a Mox to Tinker just to have your Colossus bounced, you won't have enough mana to power out good topdecked spells or the ones in your hand. In that common scenario, while all that happened was a negated effect, you're now behind a permanent mana source. In mana intensive decks, that's unacceptable. You cannot reliably win the matchup when down on mana. I've tested this matchup 'til blue-in-the-face. It's already a hard enough matchup. Consider that GAT is running four Duress. Is it reasonable to assume you can outcounter them to protect a Tinker when they could very possibly Duress you on the first turn and outcounter you because of it when you cast the Tinker? If you go the Dreadnought route, at the worst, you keep your mana sources intact. If they don't counter the Mage but counter the Dreadnought or Stifle, at least you get a 2/2 and can rely on your unaffected manabase. If the Mage and whatever it gets are good, then you're set. My point is that in the GAT matchup you're already fighting an uphill battle. Adding unreliable effects to an already hard matchup will, on average, hurt more than help.
Second, Bomberman players do not always see a Lotus every game. Adding more high casting cost spells to an already high casting cost deck won't help in a tempo oriented environment. On top of that, Thoughtseize is seeing play. What happens if they take your Trinket Mage? In a field of Spheres, at least Dreadnought and Stifle can still be cast rather easily. Try casting a Future Sight through a Sphere while being beat over the head with a Juggernaut.
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LotusHead
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« Reply #118 on: December 24, 2007, 11:37:13 pm » |
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1) You really can't really on an "oops, I win" scenario.
2) Second, Bomberman players do not always see a Lotus every game. 1) That's why it's called "Ooops I win", not Game Plan A 2) My experience has been different. It's THE prime reason I took Lion's Eye Diamonds out of my builds long ago. (I know, everyone has taken it out of theirs, but I ALWAYS see a Black Lotus piloting Bomberman. (of course, "always" means during games that I get to resolve spells, First turn kill/first turn Trinisphere notwithstanding.)
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Phele
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Tom Bombadil
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« Reply #119 on: December 25, 2007, 04:25:49 am » |
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I have tested Tinker/Colossus and Stifle/Dreadnought in Bomberman as well and I came to at least a little bit diverse conclusions than hitman.
While Stifle/Dreadnought seems obvious as Trinket finds the Nought so easily, imo it's not just done with adding two Stifles. It seems rather clunky to first search for Nought and then maybe searching for Stifle as well. If f you go the Stifle route I would at least play three Stifles to make the solution more redundant. But this would lead to the question "Why play Stifle?". While being rather ok against combo decks it has not many uses against other decks without its companion Wasteland. I ended up adding two or three strip effects und pushing Bomberman in a more fishy direction, which actually worked pretty fine, as you get a fishy build with a big Beater (Nought) and the possibility of a combo finish (Salvagers).
Anyway: In a much more controlish deck like the one from Medina, Tinker/Colossus seem to be the better solution. You have to search just for one card (Tinker), the added Tinker and Mystical are both very useful in this deck on its own without pushing the deck in a different direction (Tinker always can work as Trinket number five, well and Mystical is just Mystical) and Colossus is a little bit more resistant against removal (like Tin Street Holigans and Oxidizes while Bounce or Swords work the same against Stifle/Nought and Colossus) and bigger critters (yes, your read correct. Dryas not that rarely reaches a bigger size and so against Colossus need a Berserk, so Colossus can bring you some time for maybe a combo finish).
But this leads me to the question why to add a big beater anyway. You discussed a lot its merrits or better not merrits in the GAT matchup: But while this is for sure a difficult matchup and GAT probably the strongest deck in the moment, Tinker/Colossus is mostly not added for this matchup. It is added for the big rise of aggro decks in the moment (let it be Goblins, Workshops or RG), Bomberman also not has the easiest matchup, as they often too fast force Bomberman to get their combo online. Colossus might help here a lot and gives you a nice side step when they hate you too much after boarding as well.
The last thing I want to say is, that a very similar list like this – I am not sure, if it always hast been medina – placed in the top 8 in Spain very often over the year – almost always with Tinker/Colossus in it. It seems to work.
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Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow; Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
Free Illusionary Mask!!
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