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Author Topic: Six of One, Half Dozen of the Other  (Read 134484 times)
Anusien
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« Reply #120 on: August 18, 2008, 10:44:08 am »

Incidentally, we accept a lot of shitty deck names because of tradition.  The Rock, RDW, Sligh, Trix, Long.  It's a shitty sort of thing to argue about, because some people feel really strongly about it and will never change, and everyone else just doesn't care at all.
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« Reply #121 on: August 18, 2008, 11:35:09 am »

Long.dec was originally named “Burning Desire.”  However, Desire was preemptively restricted and the name “Burning Desire,” while descriptive, was colloquially known as Long.dec.

Keeper is an example of a deck that is named based upon tradition.

Fish is an example of a deck that once was descriptive, but over time has applied to a changing coterie of aggro-control decks. 
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« Reply #122 on: August 18, 2008, 02:25:45 pm »

In my article on July 28, I wrote out a tentative top 10 "best unrestricted spells" in Vintage list:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16188.html

1) Force of Will
2) Grim Tutor
3) Mana Drain
4) Dark Ritual
5) Thirst For Knowledge
6) Sensei’s Divining Top
7) Thoughtseize
8) Goblin Welder
9) Duress
10) Dark Confidant

Now that the metagame has settled somewhat, I think the list should be revised.   I think I ranked Grim Tutor too high relative to Dark Ritual.   Dark Ritual is probably the second or third best unrestricted spell in Vintage.    Sensei's Top has been a flash in the pan compared to what I thought it might be.   

8/18/08
The Top 10 Best Unrestricted Spell in Vintage
One Man's Opinion

1) Force of Will
2) Dark Ritual
3) Duress
4) Mana Drain
5) Grim Tutor
6) Thirst For Knowledge
7) Strategic Planning
8) Goblin Welder
9) Tormod’s Crypt
10) Sphere of Resistance

Thoughts?
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« Reply #123 on: August 18, 2008, 04:24:09 pm »

I definitely think Null Rod deserves to be on the list, possibly in place of Strategic Planning.  SP fulfills one role very well, but I'm not sure that the card is as objectively powerful as say Rod.  Planning only sees play in one deck that suggests it's more of a card that does one thing very very well (like Auriok Salvagers; a very good card in the right deck but incredibly situational).  I would also look at Trinket Mage over Duress.  Duress basically only sees play in one or two strategies.  Trinket Mage does too but it's the core of those strategies and its power level, fetching Lotus and Crypt, is pretty high for a creature.  Slaver decks have built around Trinket Mage.
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« Reply #124 on: August 18, 2008, 07:04:13 pm »

Strategic Planning is completely overrated.  It's there to fill a role and it accomplishes that goal just by being better than crap like Sensei Top.  In our testing, Telling Time has been better around half of the time (and in 1 session, it was better every time!).  It's sorcery speed and information it gives the opponent can really suck.  And too often you're dumping cards in the grave that you don't really want to because you absolutely need something in the pile right now (land, welder)

I would rank Null Rod as number 3, behind force and dark rit.  The card is just a beast against the entire format.  Endress and I both ended up 5-2 at the main event, myself in it till the last round.  Our decks were 3 Null rod, 4 force and 53 other cards.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #125 on: August 18, 2008, 07:31:06 pm »

I would normally agree with you about Null Rod.   In the past, I've described it as a foundational card for the format:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/374

However, it is quite weak against TPS.   Repeatedly, Null Rod has hit against TPS and done almost nothing.   Since it is so weak against what I consider to be the best deck in the format, I can't really put it in the top 5.   I could see a case for top 10, except that Fish didn't even make top 8 at the Vintage champs this year, a feat it usually manages to accomplish.   

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« Reply #126 on: August 19, 2008, 08:31:52 am »

According to morphling.de, the top 10, based on frequency, is:

1. Force of Will
2. Polluted Delta
3. Flooded Strand
4. Wasteland
5. Mana Drain
6. Underground Sea
7. Tormod's Crypt
8. Leyline of the Void
9. Duress
10. Volcanic Island
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« Reply #127 on: August 19, 2008, 08:42:23 am »

According to morphling.de and other sources, many of those cards are not spells.  Mad
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« Reply #128 on: August 19, 2008, 09:28:20 am »

Well it's interesting because there are a ton more Duresses then I can account for.  I'm not sure where they're seeing play besides combo.
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« Reply #129 on: August 19, 2008, 09:34:45 am »

The morphling.de aggregations are also only from July so far.

@ Deslutionist: My list is the top unrestricted SPELLS in Vintage.   Your list has lands in it.  Lands =/ Spells.   
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« Reply #130 on: August 19, 2008, 01:37:53 pm »

Strategic Planning should give up it's spot (Not it's exact spot, but rather it's presence.) to Thorn Of Amethyst. It serves the same essential function as Sphere Of Resistance for MUD, Painter, and other such decks without impeding their own Metalworker, Painter's Servant, etc. Also, while Dark Confidant has not seen as much play lately, you can't exclude it. Your list was the most powerful unrestricted spells, not a most-played list. I don't think there's any possible way to express that Strategic Planning, Thorn Of Amethyst, Sphere Of Resistance, or even the powerful Tormod's Crypt make as much of an impact on the gamestate as Dark Confidant, barring very specific situations. (I.E. Tormod's Crypt against Ichorid) Other than those few points of contention, things seem quite accurate.

Just my opinion,
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« Reply #131 on: August 19, 2008, 02:32:33 pm »

I like the 8/18/08 list over all.  I think it does actually caputure the point of this list: unrestricted spells that basically alone have a powerful effect at the cost. 

For this reason I don't think Thorn, Cabal Rit, or Thoughtsieze belong on the list.  They are analogs of cards already up there but with a "nerfed" effect, or larger cost.  Thoughtsieze could arguably belong up there as well.

Grim Tutor, and Strategic Planning I would argue do not nessisarily belong.  Their costs are high enough that they boarder on "fair."  (which is not the point of the list).  Esspecailly in the case of Grim, I think a good arguement could be made for it staying on the list (but maybe in the lower half).

I think I could make a good arguement for Cabal Therepy, Extirpate, and possibly Dread Return to make the list.  Considering Cost and Effect - these cards are all extremely efficient at what they do.  Not to mention that the two flash back cards are enablers like Thirst and welder... and Extirpate is a blanket hoser for not only decks with key-card dependancy but also for graveyard based strategies in general.
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« Reply #132 on: August 19, 2008, 06:03:44 pm »

Yes, a good case could definitely be made for something in Ichorid.   This list is almost purely arbitrary in the sense that it is highly subjective and infinitely debatable. 

Regarding Thoughtseize, I had expected that Thoughtseize would see more play post-restriction.   My experience with 8 Duress GAT had led me to believe that Thoughtseize was simply the superior card.   It turned out that TPS is so life intensive, particularly at game junctures where Thoughtsieze is most relevant (i.e. Post Necro, but just before Yawg Will, etc) that Duress was just hands down better.  Although GAT was a life intensive deck thanks to Fastbond and Thoughtsieze, the price to be paid from using Thoughtsieze was much less.   So long as TPS is a/the top deck, I don't see Thoughtseize cracking this list. 
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« Reply #133 on: August 20, 2008, 09:02:42 am »

I feel like the "something from Ichorid" should still be Bazaar, regardless of its distinction as a land.  It's still the most powerful card in the deck, and really functions pretty poorly without it.  It doesn't produce mana, and effectively takes a spell slot in any deck not named Ichorid that runs it, which means the status of land is basically semantic.

Other than that, I agree with others when they say Strategic Planning is cute, and fills a role now that BStorm is a 1-of, but every time I see the card in a non-Slaver list, I wonder if there isn't something better that could be run.  Magic has a redic amount of 2-mana blue cantrips, and I find it hard to believe that that's the best we can do.  I don't know for sure - I haven't done a vast amount of testing with it, but it seems relatively weak to be in the top 10.
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« Reply #134 on: August 20, 2008, 11:41:27 am »

Well, if you wanna pay 2 mana, you can have Ponder back via Omen.
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« Reply #135 on: August 20, 2008, 12:16:16 pm »

I feel like the "something from Ichorid" should still be Bazaar, regardless of its distinction as a land.  It's still the most powerful card in the deck, and really functions pretty poorly without it.  It doesn't produce mana, and effectively takes a spell slot in any deck not named Ichorid that runs it, which means the status of land is basically semantic.



You are right about Bazaar.   The card to represent Ichorid would be Bazaar.   The problem is that if we let lands into my list, it would spiral out of control quickly.   I'm not even sure that more than 2 spells would make the top 10.   How do we rank Polluted Delta, Flooded Strand, Workshop, Bazaar, Island, Underground Sea, etc.   It's too  much of a headache. 
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« Reply #136 on: August 20, 2008, 03:56:37 pm »

If I were to list the Top cards in Vintage, I would take all the cards from significant Top 8's, and add up the copies of each card.  It's a card game, so differentiating lands from non lands is totally arbitrary - they're all cards.  Why is Mishra's Workshop different from Dark Ritual.  Why is Bazaar different from Brainstorm.  By keeping all the cards included, the list shows which cards are succeeding.  Which mana bases are getting it done, how much Basic Lands matter, as well as showing the power of Shops, Bazaars and other important cards.  If it's a question of which cards are the best, that will give us the answer.  To narrow the discussion down, a Top 20 or 25 would be much more useful than a Top 10 once you include Lands.  The empirical way of doing it is to just show which cards are winning, anything else brings in opinion.  Strategic Planning is a perfect example of this.  Until the card puts up enough results, it is not one of the top cards in Vintage. 

For frequent reviews, Lands would often just be brushed over, as they do not change every month.  When they do change, however, it would be useful to examine how the rolls of mana bases are changing, and speculate as to the causes.  To that end, tracking percentages of each card type would be useful as well.  Seeing the numbers of lands, mana, creatures ect changing over time would also be very useful.  It would be useful to see the flux of Lands and creatures from one quarter to another.  If creatures are at an all time high, maybe those Sowers of Temptation deserve another look.  If Lands are at an all time high, maybe it's not time to try a Mana Denial plan. 

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« Reply #137 on: August 20, 2008, 03:58:42 pm »

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The problem is that if we let lands into my list, it would spiral out of control quickly...It's too  much of a headache.  

Really?  I'd argue that now with brainstorm restricted there's no argument for fetchlands entering the top 10.  The comparison between how workshop makes artifacts viable and how islands make broken blue spells viable is not a difficult one; it's simply quantity of mana produced.  Three for one is different than the fact that people play islands over forests because ancestral exists.

So long as you don't use frequency as the most significant factor, I think it's easy to see bazaar and workshop as the only possibilities for the list.
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« Reply #138 on: August 20, 2008, 05:01:11 pm »

If I were to list the Top cards in Vintage, I would take all the cards from significant Top 8's, and add up the copies of each card.  It's a card game, so differentiating lands from non lands is totally arbitrary - they're all cards.  Why is Mishra's Workshop different from Dark Ritual.  Why is Bazaar different from Brainstorm.  By keeping all the cards included, the list shows which cards are succeeding.  Which mana bases are getting it done, how much Basic Lands matter, as well as showing the power of Shops, Bazaars and other important cards.  If it's a question of which cards are the best, that will give us the answer.  To narrow the discussion down, a Top 20 or 25 would be much more useful than a Top 10 once you include Lands.  The empirical way of doing it is to just show which cards are winning, anything else brings in opinion.  Strategic Planning is a perfect example of this.  Until the card puts up enough results, it is not one of the top cards in Vintage. 

For frequent reviews, Lands would often just be brushed over, as they do not change every month.  When they do change, however, it would be useful to examine how the rolls of mana bases are changing, and speculate as to the causes.  To that end, tracking percentages of each card type would be useful as well.  Seeing the numbers of lands, mana, creatures ect changing over time would also be very useful.  It would be useful to see the flux of Lands and creatures from one quarter to another.  If creatures are at an all time high, maybe those Sowers of Temptation deserve another look.  If Lands are at an all time high, maybe it's not time to try a Mana Denial plan. 



This is reasonable until you recall Vintage players' notorious predilection towards pet decks, familiar strategies, vague notions of how vintage ought to be and Mana Drain.  Very few deck choices are not significantly influenced by factors other than objective metagame appropriateness, thus the most commonly occuring cards are going to be skewed by this no matter where you stop the sample.  Previous to Gush's unrestriction, Shay's presence at an event probably increased the top 8 tfk count by 4 even if Slaver was not the "optimal choice."
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« Reply #139 on: August 20, 2008, 07:38:14 pm »

If I were to list the Top cards in Vintage, I would take all the cards from significant Top 8's, and add up the copies of each card. 

Except that this is already computed on Morphling.de every month.   If I did the same thing, it would be duplicative.   

Quote


It's a card game, so differentiating lands from non lands is totally arbitrary - they're all cards. 


It's actually not arbitrary, in 4 critical respects. 

First of all, unlike a powerful spell such as Force of Will, every land has close substitutes.   Don't want to play Polluted delta?  Run Flooded Strand.  Don't want Island?  Run Snow-Covered Island.   Run Volcanic Island.  And so on.  Any time a card has close substitutes, it makes rank ordering much harder and less important since its likely to be a matter of trivial debate.

This relates to the second difference.  One of the motives behind such a list is a design motive.   When I first did it (in an article that is now free:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15876.html ), it was to identify the spells that were actively the best in the format so that I might think about which deck available to me could maximize the use of all of them.  This led me to 8 Duress GAT.   Identifying merely the best cards would not have achived the same result since most of that list would have been lands.   After all, I am not interested in finding the deck that can best abuse Polluted Delta and MIshra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad since it is unlikely that such a deck would cohere.   Thus, with respect to one of the motives behind the construction of this list, excluding land is not arbitrary.

Third, and related to the first and second point, identifying the best lands is not very useful for most of the purposes for which a spell-only list is.  For example, one of the purpose of the list is to provoke debate and eventually see if there is a consensus regarding what Vintage players feel are the best unrestricted spells in Vintage (assuming that the best cards are restricted or lands).  Such a list couild be helpful in restriction debates, design questions, etc.  But people aren't as likely to redesign a deck simply because one land is ranked higher than another.   Identifying the best lands is not really worth the debate given that it is just as subjective, if not more so, than a spell-only list (for reasons articulated in point 1). 

Finally, the list is a top 10 list.   The nature of such a list is that only ten cards can inhabit it.   I am fairly certain that over half of the list would be lands (Delta, Island, Sea, Volc, Shop, Bazaar).   The relevant and interesting information that such a list would provide would be far more limited than if I excluded lands. 

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« Reply #140 on: August 20, 2008, 10:16:10 pm »

It has just come to my attention that since 2002, I've written Two Hundred and Four (!!!!!!) articles on Vintage for Starcitygames.com. 

All but the last 15 or so are free.   This means that my article archive is now the largest database of Vintage articles on the internet, as it is larger than all of the previous Vintage writers archives, including Oscar Tan and Darren Di Battista's, combined!!   



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« Reply #141 on: August 20, 2008, 11:29:12 pm »

So just make it "the 10 most important vintage cards" with the stipulation that if a card has lots of close substitutes, then that lessens its importance. That lets Bazaar and Workshop on the list while excluding the more mundane duals and fetches.
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« Reply #142 on: August 21, 2008, 12:32:09 am »

Quote
First of all, unlike a powerful spell such as Force of Will, every land has close substitutes.   Don't want to play Polluted delta?  Run Flooded Strand.  Don't want Island?  Run Snow-Covered Island.   Run Volcanic Island.  And so on.  Any time a card has close substitutes, it makes rank ordering much harder and less important since its likely to be a matter of trivial debate.

While many lands have close substitutes, not all do.  Workshop, Bazaar, Library and Tolarian Academy demonstrate this point. 

Quote
This relates to the second difference.  One of the motives behind such a list is a design motive.   When I first did it (in an article that is now free:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15876.html ), it was to identify the spells that were actively the best in the format so that I might think about which deck available to me could maximize the use of all of them.  This led me to 8 Duress GAT.   Identifying merely the best cards would not have achived the same result since most of that list would have been lands.   After all, I am not interested in finding the deck that can best abuse Polluted Delta and MIshra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad since it is unlikely that such a deck would cohere.   Thus, with respect to one of the motives behind the construction of this list, excluding land is not arbitrary.

The decision to not abuse Workshop or Bazaar as much as possible seems entirely arbitrary.  I can't see a reason why abusing Dark Ritual would be grounds for discussion, while abusing Workshop would not be. 

Quote
Third, and related to the first and second point, identifying the best lands is not very useful for most of the purposes for which a spell-only list is.  For example, one of the purpose of the list is to provoke debate and eventually see if there is a consensus regarding what Vintage players feel are the best unrestricted spells in Vintage (assuming that the best cards are restricted or lands).  Such a list couild be helpful in restriction debates, design questions, etc.  But people aren't as likely to redesign a deck simply because one land is ranked higher than another.   Identifying the best lands is not really worth the debate given that it is just as subjective, if not more so, than a spell-only list (for reasons articulated in point 1).

My point was to end debate about what cards are the best by empirically showing which ones are in fact the best.  There's nothing subjective about showing which cards are actually played in the winning decks.  I do not feel the B/R list should be used to neuter the "best" cards either.  A list that shows the best cards would be a presentation of fact, not a display of opinion.  The way that Morphling.de presents their data is tremendous.  To breakdown the American Vintage scene in a similar way would be of more use than a subjective list.  Everyone would benefit from seeing the actual number of Bazaars that make Top 8's. 

Quote
Finally, the list is a top 10 list.   The nature of such a list is that only ten cards can inhabit it.   I am fairly certain that over half of the list would be lands (Delta, Island, Sea, Volc, Shop, Bazaar).   The relevant and interesting information that such a list would provide would be far more limited than if I excluded lands.

A Top 10 List is totally arbitrary as well.  It could just as easily be Top 20, or just the "List of Top Cards Until 10 Non-Lands Are Listed". 

All that said, if enough players are interested in what I have put forward here, I think it would be interesting to keep this kind of data for New England Vintage.  I'll begin talks with the other TO's and see if we can make it work.
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« Reply #143 on: August 21, 2008, 11:33:34 am »

Myriad Games posts our Top 8 decklists here on TMD for each event. We encourage all TOs to do so as well as it will help places like Morphling.de serve as more comprehensive resources, which would allow the kind of analysis being discussed here.
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« Reply #144 on: August 25, 2008, 01:22:56 pm »

Quote
First of all, unlike a powerful spell such as Force of Will, every land has close substitutes.   Don't want to play Polluted delta?  Run Flooded Strand.  Don't want Island?  Run Snow-Covered Island.   Run Volcanic Island.  And so on.  Any time a card has close substitutes, it makes rank ordering much harder and less important since its likely to be a matter of trivial debate.

While many lands have close substitutes, not all do.  Workshop, Bazaar, Library and Tolarian Academy demonstrate this point. 


I agree with this, but that doesn't get to the point here. 

You claimed that my exclusion of lands was wholly arbitrary.     It either is or it isn't.  It isn't arbitrary if I can show that there are features pertaining to lands that are not true of other cards in some way that is relevant to a top ten list. 

My point here is that, relative to spells, lands have close substitutes.  While a few key lands do not (such as Shop and Bazaar (note that Academy and Library are irrellevant because it is restricted, we are talking about unrestricted cards only), many, if not most, of the lands that would land on a "top ten best unrestricted cards in Vintage" list, would be lands like Delta, Sea, and Island, lands with very close substitutes.    Since they have close substitutes, a) that makes crafting such a list more difficult and b) makes it less interesting or informative.   

Quote

Quote
This relates to the second difference.  One of the motives behind such a list is a design motive.   When I first did it (in an article that is now free:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15876.html ), it was to identify the spells that were actively the best in the format so that I might think about which deck available to me could maximize the use of all of them.  This led me to 8 Duress GAT.   Identifying merely the best cards would not have achived the same result since most of that list would have been lands.   After all, I am not interested in finding the deck that can best abuse Polluted Delta and MIshra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad since it is unlikely that such a deck would cohere.   Thus, with respect to one of the motives behind the construction of this list, excluding land is not arbitrary.

The decision to not abuse Workshop or Bazaar as much as possible seems entirely arbitrary.  I can't see a reason why abusing Dark Ritual would be grounds for discussion, while abusing Workshop would not be. 


I am not making a decision to not abuse Workshop or Bazaar.   Again, the issue is whether the exclusion of lands from a top ten list of the best unrestricted cards in Vintage is arbitrary or whether there is some reason that makes it not abitrary.   My point here was that there was a design motive here.   

It is common knowledge that Mishra's Workshop requires a certain critical mass of artifacts to support its usage.   For the most part, then, that means that decks that run Shop are built around it.   Although Bazaar is more splashable, likewise, it is a niche card, not a general card like Force of Will or Brainstorm.   

My exclusion of land, as it relates to this second point regarding the design motive behind my top ten list, has nothing to do with a decision not to abuse Bazaar.   Rather, it is a recognition that Bazaar and Workshop are less likely to function with Delta and the other cards on the list, thus, providing less relevant information than if we simply exclude them.   To restate what I already wrote: "After all, I am not interested in finding the deck that can best abuse Polluted Delta and MIshra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad since it is unlikely that such a deck would cohere."  Therefore, the exclusion of lands is not arbitrary here.   

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Third, and related to the first and second point, identifying the best lands is not very useful for most of the purposes for which a spell-only list is.  For example, one of the purpose of the list is to provoke debate and eventually see if there is a consensus regarding what Vintage players feel are the best unrestricted spells in Vintage (assuming that the best cards are restricted or lands).  Such a list couild be helpful in restriction debates, design questions, etc.  But people aren't as likely to redesign a deck simply because one land is ranked higher than another.   Identifying the best lands is not really worth the debate given that it is just as subjective, if not more so, than a spell-only list (for reasons articulated in point 1).

My point was to end debate about what cards are the best by empirically showing which ones are in fact the best.  There's nothing subjective about showing which cards are actually played in the winning decks.

That assumes that "most played" equals "best."   While there are certainly reasons to think this may be the case, there are also good reasons to think that this may not be the case.  I think that being played is an important component of being "best," but I am not convinced that that is all that counts in evaluating whether something is "best."    That is, there are other considerations as well to be factored in.

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 I do not feel the B/R list should be used to neuter the "best" cards either.


I don't either.   I didn't state that nor did I imply it. 

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 A list that shows the best cards would be a presentation of fact, not a display of opinion.  The way that Morphling.de presents their data is tremendous.  To breakdown the American Vintage scene in a similar way would be of more use than a subjective list.  Everyone would benefit from seeing the actual number of Bazaars that make Top 8's. 


I whole-heartedly agree with you.  I find the morphling.de stats valuable, as I already explained.   My re-iteration of that list is not valuable.  However, I also think that a subjective list can have value, esp. if there is some level of consensus among the best players.   

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Finally, the list is a top 10 list.   The nature of such a list is that only ten cards can inhabit it.   I am fairly certain that over half of the list would be lands (Delta, Island, Sea, Volc, Shop, Bazaar).   The relevant and interesting information that such a list would provide would be far more limited than if I excluded lands.

A Top 10 List is totally arbitrary as well.


The exclusion of lands is not arbitrary as there are actual reasons to exclude lands in the construction of the list for the reasons I put forward.   

A top ten list IS arbitrary, in that it cuts of information at a number that is perhaps no more relevant than another number.  However, any list that seeks to provide information must have a cutoff.  Unless that list is being built by the information itself, that cut off will be arbitrary.   Since our society uses top ten lists so frequently, I thought I would mirror that spirit. 

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 It could just as easily be Top 20, or just the "List of Top Cards Until 10 Non-Lands Are Listed". 


I can't be certain, but you might be confused here.  My list was labeled "Top Ten Unrestricted Spells in Vintage."   Isn't that, logically, the same thing as "List of Top Cards Until 10 Non-Lands Are Listed," except that it uses fewer words? 

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All that said, if enough players are interested in what I have put forward here, I think it would be interesting to keep this kind of data for New England Vintage.  I'll begin talks with the other TO's and see if we can make it work.

That would be great!
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« Reply #145 on: September 01, 2008, 09:21:30 pm »

I can't tell you how good it feels to have all of that hard work paid off.   Thanks to everyone who had a hand. 

It's been a three year campaign to get Time Vault restored, and along the way there have been alot of hiccups and obstacles.   We were responsible for Flash, since it became a campaign to remove power errata.   When I brought up the issue again earlier this summer (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16079.html ), the naysayers said I was just beating a dead horse, that I should go home and stop whining. 

Never give up on trying to do what is right!

The unrestrictions are also amazing.   I've been lobbying for years to get those cards, and more unrestricted.  I finally had the opportunity to talk with Erik Lauer in person at US Nationals.   I think he understands why cards that don't deserve restriction shouldn't be there.

I'm so happy for Vintage and proud of the DCI and the Rules team.     

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« Reply #146 on: September 01, 2008, 09:41:45 pm »

Since people are still confused, Time Vault will not work with Flame Fusillade. 

Here is what, my guess, Time Vault will look like:

2 Mana
Card Type:    Artifact
Rules Text (Oracle):    Time Vault comes into play tapped.   Time Vault does not untap during your untap step.   At the beginning of your upkeep, you may untap Time Vault.  If you do, skip your next turn.   

Tap: Take an extra turn after this one.

Point: Time Vault will NOT work with Flame Fusillade.   This is the reason behind the first 2006 errata.    Mana Vault and Time Vault have the same templating.   Both cards have untap triggers only at the beginning of the turn. 
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« Reply #147 on: September 01, 2008, 10:02:30 pm »

Huge props on getting Time Vault changed (both to you and the rules team). I know you and I were discussing this just the other month and were kind of like "well, I don't think they're ever gonna change it" but apparently they have. I am really surprised.

One footnote: my recollection is that the errata was also issued in order to prevent interaction with Clockspinning, since at the time the card had time counters on it (though it was the only card that had such counters, to my knowledge, at the time). However, it overwhelmingly seemed to have been the Flame Fusillade combo that was the big concern.

I also agree with your suspected errata. We will see, though.
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« Reply #148 on: September 03, 2008, 11:11:53 am »


My Magical Christmas Wishlist for 2008 checklist (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15109.html ) included the unrestriction of Mox Diamond (Wish 10), Personal Tutor (Wish 7), and Dream Halls (Wish 5), and the restoration of Time Vault (Wish 1).

Four down, six to go!

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« Reply #149 on: September 03, 2008, 08:01:52 pm »

Tezzeret is the new Morphling.

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Stephen Menendian
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 08:15:05 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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