The Mountains Win Again

[Namingway]

IIRC there was a red card from prophecy that allowed you to sacrifice a mountain to deal three as you choose.  I can't recal the casting cost right now though :/

I think you mean this:

Flameshot 
Sorcery
You may discard a Mountain card from your hand rather than pay Flameshot's mana cost.
Flameshot deals 3 damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures.

Perhaps the Lightning Axe slot would be better filled with Lightning Bolt so that it an call the opponent in a pinch. If the main concern is killing ginormous dryads and/or togs, perhaps Cruel/Imperial Edict would be better in that slot, or maybe even Sudden Shock.

For two mana, Terminate feels like the best option. Pitches to Pyrokinesis, too. I tried to get the mana costs in the deck down as low as possible, but perhaps I overdid it a little... 2-mana removal spells aren't affected by Chalice set to 1, either.

[Troy_Costisick]

Thorn of Amethyst   
Artifact   Rare
Noncreature spells cost   more to play.

This will be going in my mono-red Atog version.  Probably 4 of them.  I think with these in the deck, Trinisphere becomes redundant, so that will make one space.  Not sure what else I'll take out.  But this definately makes my Atog more happy.

Peace,

-Troy

[Myriad Games]

Thank you to everyone for sharing your results and insights. 

It's difficult to get a good feel for how the deck plays against different matchups without a lot of testing. Fortunately, we have this forum to share our experiences, learn from play mistakes, and discuss optimal card choices and lines of play.

Lorwyn will definitely open up some new design space with Thorn of Amethyst, Thoughtseize, Gaddock Teeg, and other potential cards.

[wiley]

I have to chuckle at least a little at this
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=thoughtseize&category0= (its a ebay link for presale thoughtsieze)

Also that card I was thinkg of seems like garbage if you have to discard a mountain (seeing as how there are only four in the deck)

[Myriad Games]

Two Canadian fellows made Top 8 this past weekend in Quebec!

Check out their lists here!

Congratulations to Lany and Sylvain!

[Namingway]

Nice!

Sylvain Larochelle's list seems a lot like BDW gone Vintage. Not as much disruption, and more of a pure aggro deck.

Also, lol:

4th - Lany Chabot Laroche
[some cards]
3 Magnus of the Moon
[more cards]

[rkmancer]

It's interesting that Lany Chabot Laroche can make 3c TMWA ( ) and still obtain Moon. .
And surprisingly without any basic plains for 7 white spells main deck.
I have tried a couple week ago and failed to find a right mana proportion.
Congratulation for being top4 

[Myriad Games]

I'll be interested in seeing builds of TMWA utilizing Thoughtseize, Thorn of Amethyst, and Gaddock Teeg as they pop up. Definitely a lot of different avenues for exploration post-Lorwyn.

[wiley]

Here is a slimed down version that I would like to begin testing soon.  I would certainly like to see how often I can resolve a thoughtseize on a Gat play taking the dryad and extirpating it.  Anybody see any glaring weaknesses? 
Lands
        8 Swamp
        4 Badlands
        4 Bloodstained Mire
Creatures
        4 Dark Confidant
        4 Jagged Poppet
        4 Magus of the Moon
        2 Mogg Fanatic
        2 Withered Wretch
        4 Goblin Vandal
Spells
        4 Extirpate
        4 Pyrokinesis
        4 Terminate
        3 Cruel Edict
        4 Duress
        2 Thoughtseize
Artifacts
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Ruby
Sideboard
SB:  2 Blood Moon
SB:  3 Diabolic Edict
SB:  2 Imperial Edict
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Shattering Spree

I'm personally still unsure of the double black cc of the wretch, but I think that with the addition of thoughtseize extirpate becomes a more viable card in vintage than it was before (and it was still fairly powerful before), and the wretch prunes your own graveyard when necessary and ruins yawg wins for your opponents as well as staving off your opp's smaller critters.

I'll probably still run my current build at the tourney coming up in Raleigh, mainly because I don't think I can get in enough testing to be truly comfortable with this build by the 17th.

[Myriad Games]

I would definitely run 4x Thoughtseize. Those in combination with 4x Duress will provide heavy disruption and allow your major threats to resolve. Also, I think you'll have mana issues getting the BB needed to Withered Wretch. I would cut those 2 and the 2 Mogg Fanatics as well. I'm not sold on Extirpate yet, but let us know how the build tests.

Thanks!

[rkmancer]

Does appearance of Thoughtseize mean Unmask get kicked out?? Remember that the new duress still have 1 mana cost and it more difficult to play double discard spells in one turn as 1st plan. .Also Unmask help Poppet getting hellbent when Thoughtseize (or Extirpate) do nothing about that. .So maybe you can replace 2 Extirpate for 2 Unmask to make it 10 discard spell??
*I will choose maindeck Leyline rather than Wretch

[wiley]

in my build I was leaving out the unmask and leyline because of dark confidant.  Running so many high cc cards is very bad with him.  While I agree that thoughtseize should be bumped to four I am still unsure of what to cut for it (my thoughts would be the fanatics).  The wretch is still a much needed graveyard hate piece, otherwise the deck rolls to almost any semi broken graveyard strategy.  The only things to think about for replacing them in my opinion would be planar void (a card that I had forgotten about when crafting the initial deck) since it doesn't hurt the deck at all, is easily castable and doesn't wreck your life total when pulled with the confidant.  Though I think 3-4 would be the more proper number.  I would probably cut either a cruel edict or terminate, probably edict unless I expect a lot of oath in the meta (which would run akroma)

Extirpate has done wonders so far.  Baiting a FoW and then pating it (which allows me to see their hand and library) is a huge boon game 1.  Not to mention that I have been able to get rid of a few sets of dryads after a successful edict resolves.  I think it is the best proactive plan disruption anyone can ask for.  But that goes hand in hand with the fact that you really should try to learn what your opponents best plans of action are at almost any game state if your going to use it correctly.

so my changes currently are as follows
- 2 swamp, + 2 polluted delta
-2 mogg fanatic, + 2 thoughtseize
-2 withered wretch, + 2 planar void
- 1 cruel edict, + 1 planar void
(and if testing shows its necessary, which I don't believe it will) - 1 terminate, + 1 planar void

Also I would like to say that I believe that any more than 12 non repeatable discard-esque effects would be too many and weaken the deck as a whole.

[Wagner]

I just saw this

It's interesting that Lany Chabot Laroche can make 3c TMWA ( ) and still obtain Moon. .
And surprisingly without any basic plains for 7 white spells main deck.
I have tried a couple week ago and failed to find a right mana proportion.
Congratulation for being top4  Smile

I hardly think that my deck should be qualified as TMWA, I titled it Anti-Blue deck, I simply wanted a deck to answer to all the Gush decks out there and it did. But if I take the most recent decklist on this topic, my deck shares only.

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Duress
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

SB:  2 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Shattering Spree

I mean, half of that is the mana-base and the other half is COnfidant/Duress which are played in every good black deck. Yes, the goal is to disrupt the opponent and win with small beats, but having only 11 non-mana cards similar to another deck is like a blue deck sharing 4 FoW, 1 Recall, 4 Gush and 2 Merchant Scroll with another blue deck.


As for a side note, yes playing Moon in a 3 color deck hurts, it means that 95% of the time, Moon will shut of my White mana completely, but man was it worth it.

I played the deck again this weekend like this:

4th - Lany Chabot Laroche

1 Strip Mine
3 Badlands
2 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Snuff Out
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Jothun Grunt
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Magnus of the Moon
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Confidant
2 Grim lavamancer
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pyroblast
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Phyrexian Negator

Sideboard
4 Hide/Seek
3 Orim's Chant
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Yixid Yailer
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Shattering Spree

I swapped the 2 SSG for Negators, cut a badland and VampT for 2 Ancient Tomb and cut 2 Grim Lavamancers that were horrible last tournament.

Also, I do believe that in this deck, like in TMWA, right now there should be at least 4 REB/Pyro main deck, the metagame here is that blue intensive. I won games against Slaver and Gush Combo just by resolving a Magus/Mindsencor and countering every signifiant spell played.

I did top 8 this weekend again in a 23 player tournament, all my losses where against Ichorid which I didn't think would be present.

[andrewpate]

@Wagner
Why 2xYixlid Jailer in the sideboard?  That's not enough to be relevant against Ichorid, and there's nothing else in the meta which particularly cares about it.  If you don't want to run 4xLeyline of the Void (either maindeck or sb), I can understand that, since you're relying on Dark Confidant and particularly his attractive interaction with Chains of Mephistopheles, but 2xJailer strikes me as two wasted slots which could be better spent on Pyrokinesis, Cruel (or some other) Edict, additional copies of Snuff Out, etc. (nor do I think that the 2xTormod's Crypt makes it any better).  If you do want to prepare for Ichorid while keeping cmc low, you might try something like 4xJailer and 2xPithing Needle.

On the whole, your sideboard looks unfocused.  It's a metagame deck, so you need to rely on your strategic superiority to a few decks (such as Flash) and pick a few other decks to tune against for game 1 (which you seem to have done well) and a few decks to tune against for games 2-3 (which I see as your deck's primary weak point currently).

For example, if you wish to ramp up your effectiveness against GAT, Empty Gifts, and Ichorid post-board, you might try:

3 Engineered Explosives
3 Hide // Seek
2 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast (I would actually suggest switching your current ratios between REB and Pyroblast, but whatever)
1 Swords to Plowshares
4 Yixlid Jailer

This is by no means finely-tuned, but it's more focused like I generally prefer.  Obviously with 1xShattering Spree in your current board you are concerned with Stax, so it just depends on what you want to do, but your current 15 seems highly suboptimal and scattered.

[Wagner]

Yes, I am aware that the sideboard was chunky, I did it hastily before the tournament started, also, not having seen a single Ichorid in the last 2 tournaments, I didnt think there would be so many on this one. Also I lended my Leyline to a Friend and only had 2 Jailers and proxing Hide/Seek and Chains does take a lot of precious time before the tournament, but then again, I should have gone prepared.

I absolutely dont see the need for Pyrokinesis with 6-8 blasts and Flash is very rarely played over here (sadly).

I dont think that I really need to ramp up my match that much against blue based deck after board since the maindeck is mostly efficient, that is why I tried to hose Combo and Shop post-board.

As for the Pyroblast, I simply think that in a deck that runs Grunt AND Grim Lavamancer, pitching it for free is far superior to someone maybe redirecting it to some other spell (since the stacks dont before very big with that deck). Also running 3 and 3 is sub-optimal when playing Consultation, and yes I do consult for Pyro quite often.

If I play that deck again in a tournament, the side would look like.

4 Leyline
4 Hide/Seek
2 Shattering Spree
3 Orims Chant
2 Jailers

[mr cheese]

Hey guys. I've been looking and experimeting with TMWA for a while now, and I really like the idea of having a ton of silver bullets in the deck and sideboard becuase of my random metagame. I am not quite sure if three tutors will be enough to grab these bullets quick enough, but with Bob, I think it's possible.

The whole point is to grab silver hillets you need, and use them against the deck you are facing. Once you know the deck, you can side out the irrelevent bullest and replace them for things you can draw faster. Jotun Grunt is an all-star becuase he can put bulest back that might have been destroyed or put tutors back in the deck.

Here we go!

TMWA RWB!!! As of 12/10/07

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Plains
4 Swamp

3 Dark Confidant
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Goldmeadow harrier
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Jotun grunt
1 Exalted Angel

4 Duress
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Null Rod
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Skullclamp
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Sudden Death
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tormod's Crypt

Sideboard

1 Pyrokinesis
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jotun grunt
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 leyline of the Void
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sudden Shock
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Goldmeadow Harrier

I will explain my bullets..., but keep in mind that there are a lot of noobs at these tournaments...

Chalice of the Void: For decks that use infinite loop combos, for decks that rely on certain costing spells

Null Rod: For Stax, Workshop decks, Artifact decks

Chains: For control mostly, and the decks that use cards like Bargain, and Null profusion

Sudden Death/Shock: Used mainly for GAT, but for any Fishy deck that has annoying creatures.

Umezawa's Jitte: Kills aggro decks (Elves), pumps my guys for faster win, and gain life (Bob)

Terashi's Grasp: Artifacts and enchantments PLUS used for gain life from Bob beatings (lol Pyrokinesis)

Tormod's Crypt: Well, for any Dragon, Ichorid, and Yawg Will based deck.

As you can see the sideboard has some more creature kill, graveyard hate, and a little guy from Lorwyn that I think has potential.

Goldmeadow Harrier is like Stormscape Apprentice but for white. He is excellent against Oath, Fish, Deez Noughts, and really any deck taht relies on creatures, pref. big ones.

My hands hurt now, but could I please get some help from my deck? I will hopefully be posting my changes to the deck as I test. 

[wiley]

in your list I would suggest taking out one magus for an imperial seal (provided you have one or still hae proxy space for your local meta).
My thoughts behind this are that without a single basic in the deck he hurts you just as much (if not more) than other decks, and the extra tutor is another copy of any card you need at the time

Also you didn't explain the fountain of youth, is that a good card for you or are you looking for something better?  I would suggest cutting it for another chalice of the void.  A chalice set at 1 and 2 after you get out a creature can spell game over pretty easily (and since they will most likely have to deal with you chalice before they can play their threats it allows you to stock up your hand with answers).

How does the jitte work for you?  I always found it slightly too slow to be effective, or just bounced to my hand when I needed it most.  You might cut it for a single harrier main deck, or another tormods crypt (they can be good against decks not named ichorid too).

Hope that helped a little.

[mr cheese]

Good point, I think I may be just running basics with 4 Badlands and the 6 fetches, becuase of the Magus. I didn't mention that the tournaments were 10 proxy, but I think I can squuze some room in for it, probably take out a Mox or anything I find too unusual.

I was testing the Fountain, but I changed it for a Terashi's Grasp. The Fountain just isn't efficent enough to produce enough life. I also misread it too thinking that it was  {Tap}Gain 2 life, even though it really is  {Tap}Gain 1 life. The Grasp would help against problematic artifacts and enchantments, and gain me some life also. Chalice is a good card especially set at one or two, but for my deck seetting a Chalice at 2 is the death sentnence. In total...

1CC spells in deck=12 main, 5 side
2CC spells in deck=13 main, 5 side

It's a hard hit. I was going to test the singleton Chalice out, but now it looks like a Prime Candidate to be cut.

My meta is basically 5 t2 wanna be t1 decks, and then half real t1 decks. Most of these fake t1 decks are creature decks, such as elves, soldiers, sligh, and decks that run on creatures. As long as you can get jitte down early for 2 turns and at least 1 swing, it's fine because you can distribute the counters in response to being bounced. I find Jitte very effective, and when it isn't I will just side it out.

Thanks for your help Wiley, and I made some edits to my likst.

[wiley]

If you have a lot of people running tribal decks then you would really want to think about engineered plague.  And if many decks are using utility creatures then you would want pithing needles.  If your worried about your life total a lot in your meta (meaning lots of creatures without many powerfull spells) then I would cut the pyrostatic pillars for either of these two cards (if not both).   And remember that I am one of the few people in this thread that puts a high value on the pillars.

How many turns does your local meta usually go before the game winning stuff is cast?  would an aether sting or two be helpfull to keep your deck in the lead?  (terashi's grasp it yourself if you have to play a creature)

this is a deck you might get some pointers from, it has a very thorough discussion on its card choices.  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31136.msg451042#msg451042

[mr cheese]

I do like the Engineer Plague, and Pithing Needle ideas. The top tribe for my meta is Goblins, and Tier 1 and 2 players play those decks. Pithing Needle would also stop many Welder and Scepter decks. I would still like to keep o Pillars side for a Storm deck or a Gush deck. But both of those cards would help also.

I don't like AEther Sting, I think it wouldn't work fast enough and wouldn't be effective enough.

I'll take a look at Hide//Seek control. As for Hide//Seek, I don't really see it becoming a silver bullet.

[mr cheese]

 I do like the ideas of silver bullest in the Hide//Seek control deck. I think the Divining Top might be an option but other than that, that's about it.

[Hulkwc2]

@Mr Cheese

Manabase looks shaky

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Plains
4 Swamp

Why Flooded Strand? It cant fetch either swamp or mountain. You need dual land RW or BW, at least one copy so that you can fetch it with Bloodstained Mire and easily have white mana on the 1st turn.

The way it is now there are only 6 ways to fetch white mana, and the flooded strands should probably be cut anyway. Polluted Delta would be much better, but then you need at least 1 copy of the BW dual (cant remember name).

If you prefer Wooded Foothills, id do the following change
-2 Flooded Strand
+1 Wooded Foothills
+1 RW dual (Platou ?)

If you prefer Polluted Delta:
-2 Flooded Strand
+1 Polluted Delta
+1 BW dual ( ? )

[mr cheese]

And AGAIN, I mix up Polluted Delta and Flooded Strand. Thanks for you help.

[Myriad Games]

Thanks for the list and comments, Mr. Cheese. In addition to the already posted suggestions, it looks to me like the deck has too many silver bullets, diluting the overall power of the deck. If you're going to go that route, focus on 5-6 key targets and 3 tutors. Cut either the Enlightened or the Imperial Seal. And you definitely need to spend some time honing your mana base if you're going to run Magus of the Moon in a three color build.

[mr cheese]

If I think you are right Dan. And knowing this, I think I know what I will be cutting.

-2 Sudden Shock and Death

This is because this is just uncounterable removal. I can bump one of these up if I wanted to.

-1 Imperial Seal, thsi is because I have Enlightened Tutor, but not the Seal, so I want to keep the proxies low.

-1 Chalice of the Void

I agree that Chalice is a good card, but most of the carsd in my deck are in the 1-3 casting cost zone, so playing it at thse levels would be somewhat deadly.

-1 Terashi's Grasp

It's ok, but it's just not good enough.

With that in mind, I need to add in cards.

move 3 Goldmeadow Harriers from side to main.

These are actually better thqn I thought, and can hold down big creatures early.

I'll also bump up the Sudden Death count to 2.

In the side, I'll put in 2 Rule of Law, and 1 Sudden Shock.

I wpuld like to see if Rule of law is too slow, or if it is effective enough.

As for the mana-base, I'm probably just going to change it up as I play with the deck. So far, I have found little problems.

[Hulkwc2]

I was looking at Larwin and saw this card:

Colfenor's Plans - 2BB
Enchantment
When Colfenor's Plans comes into play, remove the top seven cards of your library from the game face down.
You may look at and play cards removed from the game with Colfenor's Plans.
Skip your draw step.
You can't play more than one spell each turn.

So basically it is a draw 7, and it looks like crap.

But then I thought that it has some synergy with Hellbent. It could be a 1 or 2 of in the Hellbent BR version. Once the deck goes into top-deck mode, you can cast this and draw 7 without actually increasing your hand size. In this situation, the drawback "You can't play more than one spell each turn" doesnt change the game because you were only going to draw and play 1 card each turn anyway. Also, the drawback "Skip your draw step" may not be too bad since you are in the position to finish the match (hellbent + a draw 7).

Anyway, I just thought of that and am mentioning in case its not as crappy as it seems.

[mr cheese]

Ok, I have tested my deck out, and its going smoothly with a few problems against certain decks. One deck, that I find is like a TMWA but is pretty popular in my meta.

R/G Beats: Uses Tarmogoyf, Kird Ape, and Gorilla Shamans, with the help of some straight burn, and tons of artifact and enchantment destruction. The problem is that Lightning Bolts and Incinerates, and Seal of Fires, and Tarfires, are enough to kill any of my creatures. Swords works well, but it gets its creatures back so quickly that it wont matter much.

I need some ideas for hate against this deck. I was thinking Ghostly Prison, and maybe something along the lines of an Infest, but it won't do much to the major beaters of the deck, Kird Ape and Tarmogoyf.

I also faced a Mono-Black Storm that tends to win on turns 2-3.

I completely demolished this deck. Chains of Mestophiles (or whatever its name is) completely wrecked his draw engine with Null Profusion, Bargain, and Dark Confidant (Sudden Deathed it). He couldnt make a comeback.

The next deck I faced twice was Bomberman.

Now, I need something to give faste beats to Bomberman. Its a pretty even matchup here. I ahted him out some games, some games he countered all of my threats. I need a fast beater more than a Jotun Grunt. Goldmeadow Harriers are all-stars here especially with Trinkets nd Salvagers swinging every turn.

So I need a card that wil hate out a R/G beats deck, and a card that I card that can break a stalemate.

My ideas, Infest, Ghostly Prison, Phyrexian Negator

Are there better cards for these slots. I have also changed my list slightly, but I will change that later.

[Hulkwc2]

Jotun Grunt looks pretty badass against both Kird Ape and especially Tarmogoyf, test an increase of those to 3 or 4.

[rkmancer]

@hulkwc2. .the problem with Colfenor's Plans  is its 4cc, you played it one turn, draw seven, and can do nothing after that or bye meaning "defenseless". .it'll be superb if it just 2cc   

@cheese. .i'v played RG BEatz one time and find it's powerful again artifact based deck but so hurt against combo. .and look into this time common meta. .combo dominates and the most useful card in this kind of deck just "Root Maze" in my opinion. .so if you like you may just add  and u can optimize both lock-man from that color including Gaddock Teeg. .just a thought. .

[mr cheese]

hulkwc2: I will post a new update thsi week, including three jotuns as they have been outstanding beaters.

rkmancer: Combo dominates in most metagames, but in my area, only a small amount of combo is played, maybe 20% of the players decks. This is why this deck is unbelieveably quick and has many answers to everything. Maybe Pyrostatic Pillar would help against this match-up.

I like your ideas with gaddock Teeg, but I need a lot of kill for my meta. But, I will find a way with this deck eventually.