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Smmenen
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« on: January 16, 2008, 09:14:23 am » |
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http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15308.htmlThe Vintage metagame is currently in flux. While GAT ruled the roost with an iron fist, it seems that other potent strategies are taking up the slack. One such strategy, Workshop Aggro, proves that consistency is at a premium in modern Vintage. So, can an uber-consistent deck like MUD prove potent in the current field? With the hybrid ability to take on multiple roles, Stephen Menendian believes the deck has promise…
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NicolaeAlmighty
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2008, 10:36:33 am » |
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Uhh... good article man. Very informative. Yet, I'm confused... The "meandeck MUD" list you made just looks like that list that top 8'd a couple years back @ one of the first Star City Chicagos... Except with Thorn. Does adding Thorn really make it "meandeck" or ?
I suppose this has been gone over numerous times. One card changes and its a new deck.
Still, as I said, nice article. Glad MUD finally got some attention.
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"Hey, I got the bye!" shouted Probasco when he heard the Featured Match call. Menendian glared at him, and the glare only worsened when Probasco asked, "Hey Steve, how's your sister doing lately?" |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2008, 11:02:58 am » |
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yeah, it's actually almost identical to the MTG gamblers mud list (unintentionally though). Although I completely revamped the sb.
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jj2423
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2008, 01:42:56 pm » |
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I have been a fan of your articles for some time now and have been a GAT player since 2003. Are you really giving up on GAT completely to work on MUD, or are you just putting GAT on the backburner for now?
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hauntedechos
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 347
"Let Fury Have The Hour, Anger Can Be Power"
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 01:47:33 pm » |
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I really can't see you putting GAT away for MUD Steve...it doesn't have Brainstorm !!
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2008, 02:04:00 pm » |
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Is the deck list a secret? Or can it be posted in this forum?
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I'm the only other legal target, so I draw 6 cards, and he literally quits Magic. Terrorists searching in vain for these powerful weapons have the saying "Bill Copes spitteth, and he taketh away." Team TMD |
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2008, 02:21:23 pm » |
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I’ve been working with a deck very similar to this, but I’ve run into some trouble. Maybe you can offer some advice. One of the things I have problems with is dealing with threats once they get in play. Your list and mine, have very little to combat an early Tinker for Platinum Angel/Collussus. Against Goblins and R/G beats, they get their creatures out too fast for me to handle all the aggro. Smokestacks is awfully slow, and Tanglewire is temporary without recursion. If I don’t get either out early, Oath wrecks me. So, problem #1 I’ve had: dealing with threats once they are in play.
I also know that I have no way of preventing someone form playing a spell- only slowing them down. If I’m on the draw, and they drop Land – Mox – Mox, Thorn of Amethyst isn’t going to be that effective. I’ve also found that since Thorn doesn’t affect Tarmogoyf, Magus of the Moon, or Dark Confidant, my disruption package isn’t as good vs. a number of decks out there as it could be. Without counterspells or discard effects, if my opponent can afford the spell, it’s guaranteed to hit the board. Problem #2 I’ve had: I can only delay spells, I can’t prevent them.
Finally, this deck must play only with what it has in its opening hand and what it gets during its draw step. There’s no search, no card advantage, and no recursion. I run 1 Library of Alexandra in my deck and 2 Staff of Domination, but that’s all. And I have to get lucky to draw the Library. If my opening Sphere gets Forced, then I might have trouble establishing board control. There’s a lot of mana sources in this deck (27 in yours, 29 in mine not counting Metalworker). That means entire opening hands could be mana sources or three draws in a row could be mana sources. When that happens, it’s tough to come back from. Problem #3 I’ve had: lack of card advantage/selection makes setbacks hard to overcome.
I keep going back between adding red and taking it out. I see advantages both ways. Any advice?
-Troy
EDIT: One thing you have in your list that I don't is Chalise of the Void. I'll have to see how that works. But again, it's reliant upon drawing it early without extra draw effects to help find it.
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jj2423
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2008, 02:56:40 pm » |
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I was experimenting with a MUD build right before Gush was unrestricted. I wasn't playing in any large vintage tournaments at the time (I was keeping up with various deck news) and at the local shop in Albany (NY), there was an old pro tour player who was running a version of U/R scepter with mana drains and echoing truth as his imprints. If he forced my opening sphere and was able to lay a scepter it was game over for me. He atypically ran main board shattering sprees and without a welder my artifacts were unable to recur. I think that the MUD is weaker than Mono red aggro. I agree that chalice is awesome and it works well with the colorless mana base, but I think that too much is being sacrificed for this one card by not adding red. I think that if you are not going to build a traditional STAX deck (with smokestack and tanglewire) than you should switch to Mono red aggro and if you want a traditional build I think that 5c STAX is the way to go.
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2008, 02:27:09 am » |
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Meandeck MUD v2.0 Suggested by Stephen Menendian on 2008-01-20 as a potential deck for Vintage As written about in http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15308.htmlPrint this deck! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maindeck: Artifacts 1 Black Lotus 4 Chalice Of The Void 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mana Vault 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 3 Smokestack 1 Sol Ring 4 Sphere Of Resistance 3 Sword Of Fire And Ice 4 Tangle Wire 4 Thorn Of Amethyst 1 Trinisphere Artifact Creatures 3 Arcbound Ravager 4 Metalworker 2 Triskelion Characters 2 Karn Lands 4 Ancient Tomb 3 City Of Traitors 4 Mishra's Workshop 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland Legendary Lands 1 Tolarian Academy Sideboard: 3 Crucible Of Worlds 4 Eon Hub 4 Duplicant 4 Leyline Of The Void -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am sad to see you talk about Jerry's list and not mention WIRECAT! |
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Team Meandeck Team Serious LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
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sushicutta
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2008, 05:36:12 am » |
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Hi Everyone Can someone explain me, for what reason you added Eon Hub ( http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/120.html) to the sideboard. I see, that Mana Crypt and Mana Vault takes an Advantage, but give away four sideboard places and 5 colorless mana just to get two and tree mana from the vault/crypt and the Smokestack and Tanglewire plan will be punished completly?!? Or is it for mirror games to sneak under opponents Smokestack and Tanglewire plan and overrun him with aggro-presure? Wouldn't it be better to add four Bottled Cloister ( http://magiccards.info/rav/en/256.html), at the time almoust all decks play Duress and Thoughtseize. thanks and greets from Switzerland, -sushicutta |
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« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 05:43:26 am by sushicutta »
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zeus-online
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2008, 05:41:05 am » |
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Hi Everyone Can someone explain me, for what reason you added Eon Hub ( http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/120.html) to the sideboard. I see, that Mana Crypt and Mana Vault takes an Advantage, but give away four sideboard places and 5 colorless mana just to get two and tree mana from the vault/crypt and the Smokestack and Tanglewire plan will be punished completly?!? Or is it for mirror games to sneak under opponents Smokestack and Tanglewire plan and overrun him with aggro-presure? thanks and greets from Switzerland, -sushicutta Most likely just to combat Energy flux, kataki and Oath of druids... /Zeus |
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The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
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rkmancer
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2008, 06:52:54 am » |
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Hi Everyone Can someone explain me, for what reason you added Eon Hub ( http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/120.html) to the sideboard. I see, that Mana Crypt and Mana Vault takes an Advantage, but give away four sideboard places and 5 colorless mana just to get two and tree mana from the vault/crypt and the Smokestack and Tanglewire plan will be punished completly?!? Or is it for mirror games to sneak under opponents Smokestack and Tanglewire plan and overrun him with aggro-presure? thanks and greets from Switzerland, -sushicutta Most likely just to combat Energy flux, kataki and Oath of druids... /Zeus Plus mirror. .cause I'll have more aggressive strategy when I face another deck which contain wire n stack. . |
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2008, 09:17:08 am » |
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I think Steve also mentioned it stops dredge from happening during their upkeep. I'm not for sure how that works, and I might be misquoting him.
-Troy
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wiley
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2008, 11:50:13 am » |
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That would probably be by stopping the ichorid trigger, not the dredge trigger.
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Team Arsenal
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ELD
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 1462
Eric Dupuis
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2008, 12:00:39 pm » |
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One major loss from the list I lost to in the Finals of the Gambler's Open is Mishra's Factory. Factory give you answers to many common scenarios. The fact that you can dump Modular counters onto it allows for a very fast clock that gets around most removal. This is perhaps the most important vs Oath, if they haven't found an orchard yet. Of course, with Crucible it creates a situation where GAT must berserk over, or add additional threats, which makes Powder Keg even stronger. That brings up Powder Keg, which I think is a very strong card right now. Wrath of Moxen is a great option in a deck playing all the spheres and strips. It also has the benefit of sneaking it in there when you can make sure it will resolve, as opposed to a card like Duplicant which must resolve at a specific time (and Time Walk is a huge consideration here too.) For reference, this is the MUD list I refer to.
1º David Beduzzi - Aggro MUD
"Thorn in my Main"
4 Metal Worker
3 Triskelion
3 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Arcbound Ravager
4 CHalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
3 Sword of FIre Ice
1 Trinisphere
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sappire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
2 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's workshop
SB:
3 POwder Keg
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Pithing Needle
3 Spawning Pit
3 Tormod's Crypt
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SyntheticAngel
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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2008, 06:35:42 pm » |
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This deck seems really awesome. Bob Yu and I have been testing this Vs. the GAT build with Goyf's and Togs. It is disgusting how bad MUD can beat GAT. Smokestack just wrecks the GAT player up. I have lost more games to Smokestack than anything in the deck. Karn is also a great blocker for Tarmogoyf. The games I win with GAT involve me just going crazy the first or maybe the second turn, but beyond that Smokestack, Tangle Wire, and Sphere's just multiply and destroy me.
Brennen
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"Oh, you want Super Kong, you take now!!!!" -Asian guy in Omaha, NE at King Kong burgers.
Colorado Crew: "Is this what it feels like not to have a hand?"
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2008, 11:21:48 am » |
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Meandeck MUD v2.0 Suggested by Stephen Menendian on 2008-01-20 as a potential deck for Vintage As written about in http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15308.htmlPrint this deck! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maindeck: Artifacts 1 Black Lotus 4 Chalice Of The Void 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mana Vault 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 3 Smokestack 1 Sol Ring 4 Sphere Of Resistance 3 Sword Of Fire And Ice 4 Tangle Wire 4 Thorn Of Amethyst 1 Trinisphere Artifact Creatures 3 Arcbound Ravager 4 Metalworker 2 Triskelion Characters 2 Karn Lands 4 Ancient Tomb 3 City Of Traitors 4 Mishra's Workshop 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland Legendary Lands 1 Tolarian Academy Sideboard: 3 Crucible Of Worlds 4 Eon Hub 4 Duplicant 4 Leyline Of The Void -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am sad to see you talk about Jerry's list and not mention WIRECAT! Sadly fastbond is savage tech vs wirecat  |
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2008, 03:51:08 am » |
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If they have fastbond or Oath out, you're losing anyway, so its not really any sort of a loss.
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Team Meandeck Team Serious LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
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yespuhyren
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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2008, 11:41:02 am » |
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I think people have to come to grips with the "Meandecking" of decks. It goes on any deck he touches Whether or not he actually makes anything revolutionary it is still going to get the title so when they win they can say they made a monster. Its just how this game works.
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Team Blitzkrieg: The Vintage Lightning War. TK: Tinker saccing Mox.
Jamison: Hard cast FoW.
TK: Ha! Tricked you! I'm out of targets
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Smmenen
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2008, 12:26:13 pm » |
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It goes on any deck he touches Whether or not he actually makes anything revolutionary it is still going to get the title so when they win they can say they made a monster.
Umm.... that's actually pretty much untrue. I've never named a GroAtog deck or a Stax deck "meandeck "" " or Grim Long, Death Long or even Long.dec, etc, etc We named Meandeck Oath meandeck Oath in 2003 and same with Dday, the Mean Deck, and Meandeck Tendrils, a deck that I entirely designed by myself. I don't even name Tog decks after our team. I labeled our MUD list Meandeck MUD not to make the point that we invented the deck, but to distinguish it from other lists. It's not a branding exercise so much as it is an distinguishing thing so people know the difference. people get bent out of shape over things like that though. How many decks of mine have people played without indicating where it came from? |
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« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 12:52:54 pm by Smmenen »
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wiley
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2008, 01:34:02 pm » |
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Deck Names: Over the past two years, arguments over the proper names for some decks have repeatedly resulted in flamewars and other rules violations. As a result, TMD staff has decided to prohibit the discussion of deck names on the forums. This includes arguing about who did what innovation first or who came up with what "tech" first. This is not a place to stroke your E-Penis.  Also, would it be good to cut a maindeck tanglewire for a single crucible, I could only see the three SB in the list of yours posted. Seeing as how you run the 4 wasteland and 1 strip mine, it would probably never be a bad draw and provides a defense against those same cards (or an early boost tapping academy, wasting it, playing it and tapping again to get out massive artifacts like karn or multiple spheres without metal worker). |
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Team Arsenal
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Smmenen
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« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2008, 02:10:21 pm » |
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I will be the first to admit that there are many things I'm "figuring out" with MUD.
There are so many options and it is far from clear which configuration is optimal in the current metagame, a metagame that is dynamic and changing.
The only thing I'm pretty sure of is that MUD is amazing right now. How to build it... well, that's another question.
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desolutionist
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« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2008, 04:01:39 pm » |
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If I play a turn 1 Pithing Needle against this deck, should I name Metalworker, Arcbound Ravager, or Triskelion?
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Smmenen
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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2008, 04:09:13 pm » |
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If I play a turn 1 Pithing Needle against this deck, should I name Metalworker, Arcbound Ravager, or Triskelion?
Definitely Metalworker LOL. |
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hyperchord24
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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2008, 05:36:15 pm » |
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I noticed nothing in the sideboard to deal with opposing artifacts like, say null rod, which isn't really prevalent now, but may be soon.
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Sean Ryan
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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2008, 01:44:33 am » |
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Has anyone considered running a Crusher variant? It seems like Eld's build was moving in that direction.
Sean
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Vintage - Time Vault vs Null Rod
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Appletree
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« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2008, 09:46:02 am » |
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What about Cranial Plating? Has anyone ever tested those? Combined with Manlands (Factory, Blinkmoth Nexus and Mutavault) and Crucibles they might be pretty good. Another possible inclusion could be Skullclamp, clamping away useless Metalworkers or the same Blinkmoth Nexus again and again, thanks to Crucible.
Appletree
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xycsoscyx
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« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2008, 05:46:18 pm » |
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Skullclamp is good, but only really works if you have a sac outlet (ala Ravager) online. Otherwise it's just insurance if your guy dies (but you don't truly have a way to take advantage of it otherwise). Crusher is good, and I think works incredibly well with Triskelion (obviously), since he's basically an Artifact Dryad.  I am curious why more Metalworker lists don't run a single Staff of Domination in the MB, simply for that "oops, I win" factor. Especially if you run Crusher, Worker/Staff can let you play out everything, pump up your Crusher with tons of counters, sac it and Modular it to Triskelion, then just kill them right there (ala a nice Combo-ish finish), or even just swing next turn with a bunch of big robots. |
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
Basic User
Posts: 823
80:20 against LordHomerCat, the word's 2nd best an
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« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2008, 11:57:37 am » |
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I'd like to second xycsoscyx is asking why none of these lists run staff of domination? Originally my list ran it as a one of, but was eventually upped to three because staff alone is really good in the meta, and so is winning out of no where turn 2. Personally I cut the ravager for bigger robots just so null rod isn't a complete beating, but laying down 5x sphere 4x wire and passing turn has never been a problem
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am 80:20 against LordHomerCat, the word's 2nd best and on other days the world's best vintage player.  |
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