[Discussion] Mono R Shop or MUD

[matthewCURBSTOMP]

Magus of the Moon trumps Blood Moon, especially when your deck is running Thorns and Sword of Fire/Ice.

[hauntedechos]

@ Harelquin:  The thread on Tyrant is mature and becomming in depth as changes and evolutions happen.  For this reason there is always a chance that it may become somewhat bigger than it is now..kinda like how TSOath creeped in there and then exploded into a meta monster.  I'm not saying that it will or won't with Tyrant  , but if there is an off chance I'd like to have it on radar.  That being said, have not yet begun testing, so on my end it's initial musings on the ways to approach the match.

@Troy:  Please keep in mind that I am testing right now and I have a habit of trying to squeeze the best of both worlds when two decks are similar enough (IE my mana base blend of  shop and MUD).  That said, here is the list you asked for.

Mono  Shop test v.5

6 Mountains
4Shops
2City of Traitors
4Wastelands
4Factories
1Stipmine
1Tolarian Academy..22

5Moxen
1Black Lotus
1Sol Ring...6

1Trinisphere
4Sphere
4Thorn
1BloodMoon
2Tangle Wire
4REB
3Crucible...17

3Magus of the moon
4Juggernaught
3Goblin Welder
3SOFI...15

I've selected 2 City of traitors over Vault and Crypt to reduce self inflicted pain, this reasoning is also why I've chosen the Traitors over Tombs.  The fact that they tend to be put in the yard is offset by 3 Crucible of Worlds.  The Crucibles also work with the Strip effects, so with thoes two reasonings I've increased the count from two (as suggested by Steve's MUD list) to three. 

There is an effort to reduce the bodies to add usefull artifact disruption via Tangle Wire and by offsetting Solemn for four ReB.  From the testing I've been doing so far, most of Vintage is permanent light and this is not just because of the concentrated creature use (x3 Tog and 1 Shaman in TOG, or 4 Dryad/Goyf in GAT etc), but also because of the Gush/Bond engine.  This engine while being slot intensive, offsets this fact by allowing you to run a lighter land count (even more permanents NOT being in play).  I think that this is a time where Tangle Wire can really shine and I'm trying to find room for as many as possible.  Early game, if resolved, these are like Time Walks for us against the Gush/Bond engine.  If you add in Strip effects, this can be crippling to the point that your opponent may never be able to come back and again the Strip/Crucible aspect is there when Tangle Wire is not.

There are numbers of cards that are all over the place right now, because the deck is trying to do so many things at once.  I haven't found what works 100% to my play style right now and once I do I will have a better list to post.  I'm just juggling things around in terms of metagame considerations and playstyle development.  The one thing that I don't like about both MUD and  Shop is the amount of bodies used.  Oath makes up a large percentage of decks where I live and this makes me un comfortable, as they seem like dead draws against Oath.  On the other hand, I don't feel that I want to resort to Staxx because of the lack of bodies it employs.

More as things develope

Haunted.

[Harlequin]

Magus of the Moon trumps Blood Moon, especially when your deck is running Thorns and Sword of Fire/Ice.

Umm if thats dirrected ay my list... I already run 4 magi - the 2 blood moons are moon effect #5 and #6.  That being said, this deck is designed to attack GAT... but the meta is slowly moving away from GAT and towards something like oath v combo.  So I wanted to share my deck, while expressing that I don't know that I would play it right now without tweaking it to be better in those matches. 

@ Tyrant Blue.  I agree, and I hope (for my ego) that it does take off and gain some respect.  But I was more cautioning against 'shoeboxing' this deck because it has a bad match up against a highly theoretical deck.  As I said in the Tyrant blue thread, the metagame moves like a wave, right now we are starting to move towards TSOath v Ichorid/Combo.  So to me, this is saying that a deck like Red-shop-tempo is a poor choice as it resides in the wake of the current wave.  But if I know anything about metagaming its that keeping decks like this on the back burner is great because the meta-wave WILL roll around again.  And this deck will have it's chance to surf a new wave in the future.

[matthewCURBSTOMP]

Magus of the Moon trumps Blood Moon, especially when your deck is running Thorns and Sword of Fire/Ice.

Umm if thats dirrected ay my list... I already run 4 magi - the 2 blood moons are moon effect #5 and #6.

Didn't notice the Magi in the original list since they aren't added in with the creatures, but rather lock pieces.

[Thicketman]

I have finally tested Mono  Shop against TSOath and out of 10 games I won 5 and half of the games I lost lasted a long time. All I sideboarded was a jester's cap and 2 red elemental blasts. It seems the Magus and the Spheres, either cripple them badly or slow them down a lot. Needless to say, TSOath is not the worst thing we have to face.

What I really have a hard time against is Ichorid. I don't have much experience against it and I'm not sure what to sideboard. Any help would be appreciated and I'll keep testing.

[hauntedechos]

@Thicketman:  I'm glad to hear of your findings against Oath.  I was having similar results or better and I wasn't sure if it was just my testing was off or something.  In concerns with Ichorid, there are 2 kinds of Ichorid right now and it's hard to say.  Manaless Ichorid was almost as simple as dropping leyline of the void turn 0 and taking a walk through the park.  The new extended version is having much better success and isn't hated out by leyline.  Look at the tournament results thread for the "undefeated at ELDs tournament report for a deck list and some findings.

Haunted.

[Red Irish]

What I really have a hard time against is Ichorid. I don't have much experience against it and I'm not sure what to sideboard. Any help would be appreciated and I'll keep testing.

I side in 3 Magus of the Moon, 3 Pyroclasm and 3 Tormod's Crypt.

Silent Arbiter is another option, you could run 4 in the board.

[hauntedechos]

@ Irish, what are the 6 cards left in your sb then?  Seems like an awfull lot to side in.

[Thicketman]

Thanks Irish!

What I really have a hard time against is Ichorid. I don't have much experience against it and I'm not sure what to sideboard. Any help would be appreciated and I'll keep testing.

I side in 3 Magus of the Moon, 3 Pyroclasm and 3 Tormod's Crypt.

Silent Arbiter is another option, you could run 4 in the board.

The Magus seems to slow them down and is in my mainboard, but they can still dredge, just not twice per turn. Pyroclasm seems like an option, except in many cases, my opponent's 2/2s always end up being 3/3s. Tormod's crypt seems good as I can also weld it back in and use it again. Silent Arbiter looks like an awsome sideboard against Ichorid.

There has to be something more.

[Red Irish]

No problem.

Just one point: I think you'll find that the 2/2's become 3/3's when the Ichorid player Dread Returns the Flame-Kin Zealot to make the decisive strike, in other words, you're dead at this stage. Pyroclasm keeps your opponents tokens and Narcomoeba off the table, thereby buying you time, and may send some of your creatures into your graveyard, which removes any Bridge from Below in the Ichorid player's graveyard.

There are other options:

I run Ravager and Masticore in the main (I have posted my deck under the Workshop thread), which, along with the Welder, allows you to put your own creatures into your graveyard to, once again, remove your opponents Bridges. You could also consider Mogg Fanatic and Karn for similar purposes. Platinum Angel and a few spheres to prevent them from playing artifact destruction would also work and Powder Keg can be used to remove all those nasty tokens (I prefer Pyroclasm).

However, despite all these suggestions, if the Ichorid player has an explosive start any deck can find itself in very serious difficulties and I would not advise you to use too many sideboard slots, thereby compromising your ability to deal with other archetypes.

Good luck with that graveyard hate. 

[Red Irish]

@ Irish, what are the 6 cards left in your sb then?  Seems like an awfull lot to side in.

I have already posted this on the Workshop thread and I didn't want to clutter up this post with repetition, but as you have asked, here's my deck and sideboard:


2 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
6 Mountain

5 Moxes
1 Lotus
1 Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Crypt


4 Goblin Welder
2 Arcbound Ravager
4 Juggernaut
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Razormane Masticore
2 Triskelion


3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire

Sideboard

3 Jester’s Cap
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Pyroclasm

I will probably side Viashino Heretic rather than Rack and Ruin (see Workshop post).

Cheers

[Thicketman]

I will probably side Viashino Heretic rather than Rack and Ruin (see Workshop post).

Cheers

Have you checked out Shattering Spree. Seems to be the best artifact destruction I've seen.

[Red Irish]

I will probably side Viashino Heretic rather than Rack and Ruin (see Workshop post).

Cheers

Have you checked out Shattering Spree. Seems to be the best artifact destruction I've seen.

I am too afraid of a Chalice of the Void set at one.

[MrJolly]

I am too afraid of a Chalice of the Void set at one.

A chalice set at one will only counter the original spell, and not the replicated copies.

[VsTheWorld]

For Shattering Spree to be as effective as Rack and Ruin under Chalice at 1 (common in my list since I run 3 Chalice at the moment), it requires you to have RRR available, which isn't likely to happen unless you have a Solemn Simulacrum-heavy draw. 2R is more easily available over the course of a normal game. Being instant speed is also quite nice. That being said, I run Viashino Heretic in my anti-artifact slot because it just wins games vs relevant artifact decks (Red Shop mirror match, MUD, or Stax). I've never lost a tournament match to the mirror or Stax when I got an active Heretic.

[Evol daN]

So I had not tested against Tyrant Blue when I made that post.  I was just Brainstorming off the top of my head.  At the time the Tyrant Blue lists I was familiar with ran 3xTyrant and Platz.  Since Platz is a terrible win condition against Uba Stax I figured that Cap would be good.  Jeff Carpenter's list runs DSC instead of Platz and that is much better against Uba Stax.  Perhaps Cap would be worse.

Anyway, I did go ahead and test this matchup.  I only played 4 games all pre-board.  This is not nearly enough to make any sort of sound judgement, but it seems to me that Uba Stax has a very strong matchup against Tyrant Blue pre board.

I am not sure... but I dont think he was talking about control Shop, like Uba Stax. I think most discussion here was intended to focus on the Brown vs. Red *Aggro* Shop

Since Mox Junky bit, I have tested Tyrant Blue vs. Uba Stax, Uba is like an All Star team that plays together all year, nearly every card is devistating (note I run Duplicant over Karn). Basically the only thing you fear is Tryant-player on the play leading turn 1 with (Show and Tell - Tyrant) or (Land, Mox, Remora). Otherwise, as statements here have reflected, Tyrant Blue doesnt really require extra effort from *Conrol* Red Shop.

Meditate is in theory awesome against Stax, but it never did anything in the four games I played.  The problem is Meditate is good once Smokestack is ramping.  The only problem is with few ways to remove Smokey you are basically already losing that game.  You need to draw into Show and Tell / Tyrant and then hope you have enough permanents to cast Show and Tell aftering saccing 2 or more permanents to Stack.

Meditate can actually be abused by the shop player.
Even with alot of basics, when the blue player feels Uba Stax beginning to lock, even just a single Sphere/Waste plus a landed Smoke Stack, they are going to need to cast Meditate while they can, many times immediately (within a full turn) after Smoke Stack hits play. This is a poor choice, but many times the only choice.

Permanent rich decks like Stax can afford to ramp even if their opponents are skipping the intermediate turns... exchanging a bit of advantage now (1-5 perms, at the worst) for a devistating hit to the blue player who suddenly loses 2-3 perms, and probably their whole board on their second upkeep. In the end, Uba rebuilds SO much more efficiently, obviously.

For Shattering Spree to be as effective as Rack and Ruin under Chalice at 1 (common in my list since I run 3 Chalice at the moment), it requires you to have RRR available, which isn't likely to happen unless you have a Solemn Simulacrum-heavy draw. 2R is more easily available over the course of a normal game. Being instant speed is also quite nice. That being said, I run Viashino Heretic in my anti-artifact slot because it just wins games vs relevant artifact decks (Red Shop mirror match, MUD, or Stax). I've never lost a tournament match to the mirror or Stax when I got an active Heretic.

.
This is simply true. Heretic is amazing, no haste , but is extremely strategic, and can basically tie up an opposing Welder... it has a psychological effect on the opponent which you can use to herd them.

[Thicketman]

Just a thought; What if you sideboarded Forbidden Orchards against Oath? LOL! Even taking a mana burn every turn just so they don't have less creatures than you to buy you time until you can get enough locks out on them muhahahahah!

[Red Irish]

Hi,

as posted above, my sideboard is currently as follows:

3 Jester’s Cap
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Pyroclasm

The question is, should I replace the 3 Jester's Cap with 3 Spawning Pit for the Oath match? Has anyone carried out intensive testing with these cards? At 2 mana, the Spawning Pit would prevent Oath from activating in the first few turns and I will be able to play it sooner, even in situations where I have a couple of Sphere/Thorn on the table. The Pit will buy me time and allow me to attack each turn with at least one 2/2; however, despite requiring more mana to play and activate, the cap is undoubtedly a definitive solution and could also be employed against storm-based and other combo decks. Having said that, the Cap is primarlily included in the board to combat Oath, would the Pit be better?

Cheers

[Thicketman]

That spawning pit sounds nice. I didn't even think of that.
I already mainboard magus.
I think what I would sideboard aginst oath would be:
 
2 forbidden orchard
1 spawning pit
1 jester's cap
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast

what I would remove for them would be a
razormane masticore
2 mountains
solemn simulacrum
a sphere of resistance
and either another razormane or a sword of fire and ice.

[matthewCURBSTOMP]

Greater Gargadon is so much better than Spawning Pit. The Oath player can just bounce Pit eot and then activate Orchard and then you're screwed because you have no pressure on them since you haven't been playing creatures.

[Thicketman]

Greater Gargadon is so much better than Spawning Pit. The Oath player can just bounce Pit eot and then activate Orchard and then you're screwed because you have no pressure on them since you haven't been playing creatures.

You're right! Gargadon it is! Heck I may as well put in 3 of em, a REB and a pyroblast and 1 cap.

[LotusHead]

Everyone here's loving the Mono-R Shop builds, but I've been doing the MUD thing on MWS and testing w/my team.

Here's my board:
// Sideboard
SB: 3  Damping Matrix
SB: 4  Uba Mask
SB: 2  Orb of Dreams
SB: 4  Jester's Cap
SB: 2  Platinum Angel

My plan vs Tyrant Oath (or Tyrant blue if I see it) is to side in Uba Mask and Jester's Caps.  If either of those hit the field, I have a chance.

Damping Matrix hopefully deals with the Welder's a Sword F/I, Orb.

Someone asked about Arena. I brought it to a tourney, it didn't show up and then I switch decks (it did terribly at that tourney anyways).

[hauntedechos]

@ Lotus Head:  That was me asking about it.  I thought that if it hit play that it would be a great card given the high attack of Shop robots.  How have you matches been going against Tidespout? As soon as I decided to pick up  shop, I pretty much went straight to testing against it, as such I haven't tested much of anything else.  Orb of Dreams with TangleWire seems like a great Main deck consideration for MUD, have you looked into this configuration?  I've never tested it, but it seems decent off the top of my head.  It's good to hear from a MUD player, I hope there are some more out there that want to show us some results and options that the MUD player has and include some match up information for us.

@ The rest of the thread:  I've played 3 matches in two deck testing, and one match versus a mate of mine playing his list of TSOath (lovingly netdecked from The Mana Drains, tourny report section).  In two deck testing I went 3-0, matches and 6-2, games, while I went 2-0 against me mate.

The deck right now is very much geared towards beating TSOath and thusly it will undoubtedly have weaker matchups elsewhere, as such I will be making changes as I get into testing against other archtypes.  So what have I changed?


Mono  scrub shop v.6


4Shops
4wastelands
1stripmine
4factories
2City of Traitors
6Mountains

5Moxen
1black Lotus
1Sol Ring

4Thorn
4sphere
1Trinisphere
4Chalice
2Tangle Wire

4Welders
4REB
2Crucible

4Juggernaughts
3Jitte

SB:
4Leyline of the void
4Spawning pitt
4Razormane Masticore
2Powder Keg
1pyroclasm

So it looks like a pile I suppose, when considering the time tested and tweaked lists that have been issued here on The Mana Drain.

Q&A

Dude where is your Magus of the Moon?

I don't run them, I find that while they provide an exceptional soft lock piece, people are just too wise to Moon effects.  I've been playing around them for years as a Fish player and then into a brief romance with Combo.  Mr. Menendian's '08 Tog list boasts 3 Islands and a swamp...Magus is out classed by a Tog as well as many other creatures.  I also do not rely on "well when I have my Jitte/SOFI online, I'll fix your dudes"  In it's place 4 Chalice feels better for me.

You're running Factory AND Waste base AND you have city of traitors, what have you given up?

Everything in the traditional lists that is absent here.    Shop has traditionally included large robots en mass to induce a fast clock leading to paranoia, resulting in game play errors whilst swinging for the win.  TSOath is faster and has board control.  I've given up some main deck creatures to be replaced by Factories.  Slower, yes but they fly under the radar, as well as being unaffected by Sphere effects and lastly, they are usefull to cast further artifacts.  I was unable to give up the Strip lock option because of the masses using the Gush/Bond engine.  This is different than using Moon effects as a manabase hoser.  Wastes still cast artifacts, are brutal when paired up with Sphere effects (they take the lands out, instead of turning them into Mouintains) and again, they don't trigger Oath, all the while also addressing Orchards.  With everyone insisting on running light mana bases in favour of the "free draw" and Gush/Bond engine, thorns and wastes will continue to punish them.

Jitte over SOFI?

Yes.  Jitte offers critter control game 1-3, while SOFI offers protection for your dude and draw.  I do not dispute SOFI power or abilities, however I feel that Jitte offers additional life gain in the Combo match, board control in the aggro match and lastly, boost the beats higher all the while.   Because I have elected to reduce the robot count in the list, I've attempted to offset this as best as possible with Jitte.

TangleWire?

Jep.  Tangle wire is a card that I've grown to love.  When included in the mix of Chalice/Waste/Sphere effects, Tangle Wire often buys you time if you need it, or provides an outright lock with an active welder.  I'm pretty sire I've read something to the effect of Tangle Wire not being the force it was or something like that, but I would have to disagree.  My list has no draw and thusly I need to tie the game up as much as possible to allow the topdecks to filter through.

You SB looks like a pile too.

Hey that's not a question!! but yeah, I guess it does.  It's all self explanitory I would imagen, Leyline for flash/Ichorid, Masticore for Goblins/aggro, spawning pit for Oath, Powder kegs for general utility against the field.  It basicly tries to amplify elements of the Maindeck.

How's Spawning pit been for you?

It's too early to tell.  In the games that I've played it's been outright control over Oath, yet a large part of me really wants Eon Hub for Ichord and E.Flux damage control.  I think that Eon Hub would allow more creatures to come back into the list, and this will most likely be the way it goes in the future as it seems much more sound across the meta.  The decision to test Pit was based on it's cheaper casting cost, which leads to much more reliable turn 1-2 access as well as it's amplification of Jittes board control properties against Oath.

So in the end, this list is comprised of more disruption and lock possibilities, than aggro options.  As I've said, this is the begining stages of this build in concerns to TSOath and priliminary testing says that I can move on to other decks now.  I feel that the problem matches I will face, will include large dudes and this is something I will have to address, even though there are Masticores in the SB.  Additionally, I think that the waste/Crucible option will be more of a dead draw in the Goblins/random mono coloured aggro matches.  I was looking at the list and looking at MUD and Stax lists.  I've thought about just playing Staxx, but I feel comfortable with this build and like the slight aggro feel that it does have, while I don't care for the way MUD wants to puke it's hand onto the table and then hope it was enough to slow/lock the opponent out.

I'll add more information as things move on, as I hope everyone else will as well.

Haunted.

[Thicketman]

Flash killed me 1st turn 5/10 games and 2nd turn 3/10. I won 2/10 wtf.

[Troy_Costisick]

Flash killed me 1st turn 5/10 games and 2nd turn 3/10. I won 2/10 wtf.

If Flash is giving you that much trouble, try siding in your Leylines and changing out the Juggs for Trikes.  If they're playing non-sliver combo, drop the kegs for Crypts or Needles.

Peace,

-Troy

[Thicketman]

Flash killed me 1st turn 5/10 games and 2nd turn 3/10. I won 2/10 wtf.

If Flash is giving you that much trouble, try siding in your Leylines and changing out the Juggs for Trikes.  If they're playing non-sliver combo, drop the kegs for Crypts or Needles.

Peace,

-Troy

Thanks. That seems like it would work, although dropping a trisk 1st  turn doesn't happen as often as a 1st turn flash.

[hauntedechos]

You could also try Caltrops as well.  It's cheaper, although it doesn't swing.

[sorcutt]

In mono R I'm really tempted to drop a juggs for a 4th Trike.  Trike is really a house right now.  In regards to flash/ichorid, as much as I despise leyline (especially in a deck that doesn't have a way to hardcast it sans lotus) you really do need it in the matchup.  I've tried both Silent Arbiter and Caltrops in Mono R.  Frankly, the both just don't cut it.  They're too easily distrupted/removed.  At least with Leyline it's free and you know it's gonna be out there for at least 1 turn.

[Thicketman]

Instead of starting a new thread, I figured I would just ask here.
I am trying to tweak out my sideboard and was looking for some help.

I would say that the current meta in my area for upcoming events would be 35% TSOath and TSBue, 20% GAT, 25% Ichorid, 5% Stax, 5% Flash, 5% Fish, and 5% whatever.

My current build is Mono  Shop.

4 goblin welder
4 magus of the moon
4 juggernaut
4 solemn simulacrum
3 razormane masticore
2 triskelion

4 sword of fire and ice
4 sphere of resistance
4 thorn of amethyst
1 trinisphere
1 red elemental blast

6 mountain
4 mishra's workshop
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 tolarian academy
2 ancient tomb

5 moxes
1 black lotus
1 mana vault
1 sol ring

Sideboard:

1 Leyline of the void
2 tormod's crypt
1 jester's cap
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 caltrops
1 silent arbiter
3 greater gargadon
1 shattering spree
1 pyrohemia
1 tanglewire
1 chalice of the void

I seem to do pretty good against Oath and destroy GAT. Flash is bad since I lose on turn 0 most of the time against it. I think Leyline of the void would be best for that. Ichorid is pretty crappy as well. Not much experience with Fish, Stax, and Mirror.

Just looking for some fine tuning if possible.

[hauntedechos]

Your SB needs to be tuned.

Greater Gargadon is great IF you ues Factories.  Casting a dude will allow them to take off.
Tangle Wire is good stuff against the Gush/Bond engine.
I would argue that four blasts main are a must.
Pyroclasm seems better to me vs. Caltrops.  Fish hates it, tokens hate it, goblins hate it... aggro hates it.
If you fight combo with Caps, its on the strength of itself plus Welders.  The lack of significant draw should warrent 3 I would assume.
Duplicant is a great consideration to MD Show and Tell abusing Tyrant players.  As mentioned above, it's a virtual GG.  The general utility against a field of creatures is also not to be over looked.
I'm simply underwhelmed with Solemn, currently I find MD slots for Factories in his absence, which with Crucible is a good thing synergisticly speaking...at least for my list.
Leyline of the Void or Tormod's pick one.  I think that Tormods requires more playskill than Leyline, so be honest with yourself and balance the pros and con's of each...then run one.
With a high % of Oath running around, the use of Welders to weld in artifacts pitched to Masticore is sub optimal I think (but certainly don't lean on my advice), pitch them to up the Trike count for utility in the mirror and against Fish and Goblins (possibly TSOath as well if you are holding one and resolved one w/ two counters remaining) and add tanglewires or REB main.  Also that many creatures is excessive I would have to imagen, though I'm sure I am wrong as an inexpirienced Shop player (a grand total of 30ish test matches and no Tourny data)
Considering the use of four SOFI, the draw should be able to provide enough support for you to lean on disruption over aggro.

Off the topic of deck help,  I have really been enjoying two City of traitors over Crypt, Vault.  The reduction of pain is great in my slower build, while Crucible negates it's restrictive downside.  The build I have been working on has lost a grand total of three games against TSOath out of 6 matches and thoes games have all been post board and seperate matches.  On the other hand, I have yet to begin testing with decks that do not use the Gush/Bond engine, so be aware.

Haunted.