Aggro & Control, the real meaning: Mr. Gaddock

[brianpk80]

For Time Vault, Magus of the Unseen is more effective here than Trygon Predator.  Opponent puts a Vault into play, end of turn, Vial out the Magus.  Next turn, steal their Time Vault, it becomes untapped and now you are the one with infinite turns for the rest of the game.  Same principle applies to Darksteel Colossus, and nothing beats stealing an opponents Crucible of Worlds and sacrificing it to their Smokestack.   

Magus is always at her strongest when Stax is doing well and when Drain decks are relying on an artifact as their kill.  In a Vial Fish build, Magus is one of those things that singlehandedly converts an instant loss into an instant win.  Heavily recommended.  But put her in the sideboard if the local meta is very aggro heavy.

Either Gilded Drake, Waterfront Bouncer, or some combination of the two make for synergic creature control slots in a deck designed for Vials @ 2.  Drake is stronger in my experience, because it has an instantaneous effect. 

4 Gaddocks is excessive and since Gush has left the meta, his utility seems very narrow to me.  Stops FoW, MisDirection, Tendrils of Agony, X spells, and not too much else.  I would swap 2 Gaddocks for 2 True Believers, especially since Gaddock is a legend.  Believer is gotten stronger over the past year with the rise of Intuition, Thoughtseize, Grindstone, and of course stops Tendrils, Mindslaver, Hurkyl's Recall, Mind Twist, and other random things that show up from time to time.     

[nineisnoone]

For Time Vault, Magus of the Unseen is more effective here than Trygon Predator.  Opponent puts a Vault into play, end of turn, Vial out the Magus.  Next turn, steal their Time Vault, it becomes untapped and now you are the one with infinite turns for the rest of the game.  Same principle applies to Darksteel Colossus, and nothing beats stealing an opponents Crucible of Worlds and sacrificing it to their Smokestack.  

Magus is always at her strongest when Stax is doing well and when Drain decks are relying on an artifact as their kill.  In a Vial Fish build, Magus is one of those things that singlehandedly converts an instant loss into an instant win.  Heavily recommended.  But put her in the sideboard if the local meta is very aggro heavy.

Awesome card. 

You can even beat Painter-Grindstone if you have 5 mana.  A bit steep, but the potential is there.  And it looks to be great against Stax match-ups, where I didn't see the deck having all that good of answers.  Sacrificing their own stuff to their Smokestack is hilarious.  It's even good in the 9 Spheres Aggro to threaten them with trading against their own creatures.  Great against Tinker-> DSC/Titan/Angel.  Though with Titan, you might be left without lands.  I don't think I'd put her in the maindeck, as I only really want her in Shop match-ups.  She's good to have in other match-ups, but for whatever reason I'm more comfortable with her in the sideboard especially since I'm running Drake. 

Also, I checked on starcitygames and got:

Q: Does Solitary Confinement (or its friends, Ivory Mask and True Believer), stop an opponent from playing Intuition?

A: No. Intuition does not target at all. You can still play Intuition and have an opponent choose one of the three searched for cards to be put into your hand.

So -1 card for Believer.

Runes/Safekeeper:  I wouldn't run either card, but I have come to agree on running Safekeeper over Runes.  Runes is better when you have 2 or fewer lands/mana and no Aether Vial.  Every other situation, I'd rather sacrifice a land.

Just noticed that that Magus of the Unseen is a Wizard.... makes me want to play it even more.

[Webster]

Also, I checked on starcitygames and got:

Q: Does Solitary Confinement (or its friends, Ivory Mask and True Believer), stop an opponent from playing Intuition?

A: No. Intuition does not target at all. You can still play Intuition and have an opponent choose one of the three searched for cards to be put into your hand.

Oracle:

Intuition 
 
Rules Text (Oracle):  Search your library for any three cards and reveal them. Target opponent chooses one. Put that card into your hand and the rest into your graveyard. Then shuffle your library.

(7/15/2006 Targets an opponent. You choose an opponent during announcement. If you can't target an opponent, you can't play this card

Always check oracle first. It's official.


http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/

[nineisnoone]

Thanks for that.  Was wondering how the hell they decided the card didn't target...

[LordHomerCat]

Thanks for that.  Was wondering how the hell they decided the card didn't target...

Remember that Ask the Judge does not get updated.  So, for a while, Intuition did not target, but now it does again and no one is cleaning out the ATJ database so you can't really rely on it for old cards.

[nineisnoone]

Cool.

Bant Charm got me thinking about some other cards, namely:  Treva's Charm and Voidslime.

Bant Charm - Bottom decks creatures, destroys artifacts, and counters instants.
Treva's Charm - Destroys enchantments (Oath) and removes creatures from the game.
Voidslime - Counters spells and counters Tendrils of Agony.

Barring Oath, I'd say that Treva is the weakest, but being able to answer an Oath and the Oathed creature makes it a strong answer to fish-decks traditionally weakest match-up.  It does have some utility otherwise, but not being restricted to attacking creatures is a significant drawback.  I suppose if you attack with everyone and Vial before their combat phase they'd have no reason to suspect though.  I don't think the 3rd ability is relevant.

Voidslime is overall the strongest, because it can counter any card type and it can deal counter a Tendrils of Agony.  However, like is the case with all counterspells, it can't deal with anything once it is in play and requires players to pass the turn with mana untapped.  So while it's the strongest card in a way it becomes the least conducive to the strategy.

Bant is pretty much in the middle.  It deals with some spells.  It deals with Oath creature but not Oath.  It can hit an artifact, but at 3 mana in 3 colors it'll have a hard time being played and even the it'll only hit one card, which is unlikely to swing the match that much in your favor.  However, hitting artifacts and creatures and instants means that it'll pretty much always have a target.

They all look pretty interesting to me...

[Guli]

For Time Vault, Magus of the Unseen is more effective here than Trygon Predator.  Opponent puts a Vault into play, end of turn, Vial out the Magus.  Next turn, steal their Time Vault, it becomes untapped and now you are the one with infinite turns for the rest of the game.  Same principle applies to Darksteel Colossus, and nothing beats stealing an opponents Crucible of Worlds and sacrificing it to their Smokestack.   

Magus is always at her strongest when Stax is doing well and when Drain decks are relying on an artifact as their kill.  In a Vial Fish build, Magus is one of those things that singlehandedly converts an instant loss into an instant win.  Heavily recommended.  But put her in the sideboard if the local meta is very aggro heavy.

What a great suggestion, the magus, and at the same time a fantastic reminder, true believer. I can not believe i overlooked true believer for this deck theme.

Magus is one of those power plays that have such effect that the summoning sickness is wort it. As for Gaddock and Believer. Why cut any? Just play additional Believers.
Sure there are cards that are stopped by both of them but there is still more card range covered with the inclusion of believer. Thoughtseize or Duress stopped is a good thing even tho duress isn't that effective against so many creatures.

Treva's Charm - Destroys enchantments (Oath) and removes creatures from the game.

I really don't advise to play those charms. They walk into drains if you ever get the correct mana anyway. 2 seperate colors and a colorless is doable but i wouldn't risk any other combination unless it is hybrid.

We're comparing Skyshroud Elite to Tarmogoyf.  And Skryshroud is just simply inferior to Tarmogoyf even considering the facts you state.

I agree. And i like your argument about the vial being more redundant when you have a lot 2cc creatures. Maybe i should add that to the criteria. 'Preferably 2cc'


The next card suggestions really caught my attention:
True Believer
Tarmogoyf
Magus of the Unseen
Gilded Drake

True Believer
Dual white is playable especially with vials and also very nice to vial in at instant speed. I have to be careful though not to overdo the anti-combo. Still more bears is always good against aggro as well. This also stops slaver and belcher a likes. Duress effects are stopped too. Another thing he stops is hurkyl's recall wich is important to keep your vials and canonist in play. Definitely will get a slot in this theme deck. Not just 2 most likely 3 in combination with 3 Teeg perhaps.

Tarmogoyf
Even the most obvious cards to add should be open to discussion. I was a bit shocked when Teeg was targeted though . With all my hosers having max 2/2 bodies some big fat monster is required i guess. Not primarily to make the clock faster against control/combo because those match ups are favorable anyway but to have more firepower against aggro and stax.

Magus of the unseen
I have no experience with this card so i refrain from making a lot of comments on this card. My first observation is that he does require a turn to be active. And he looks fragile with a 1/1 body. But the answers he can provide are luring. You do need a mox and land in hand to stop Sundering Titan though because he will take out all your lands. Tinker seems to be a problem like someone stated before. Mage alone isn't going to cut it so it might be wise to give him some support.

Gilded drake
I have had only positive results with Sower of Temptation. Rarely had problems casting him and rarely the opponent was in a position to counter Sower or steal his creature back. And when cast the effect was back breaking. This being said Gilded should be taken into consideration because of the lower casting cost and more synergy with vial.

Keep sharing, thanks
Guli

[nineisnoone]

I really don't advise to play those charms. They walk into drains if you ever get the correct mana anyway. 2 seperate colors and a colorless is doable but i wouldn't risk any other combination unless it is hybrid.

I've always felt walking into Drains as a more of a personal play error.  Plus, they aren't for the drain match-ups anyways.  Don't see why they are more Drain vulnerable than anything else, especially when you were running Sower/Predator.  Additionally they are instant, so if you are facing Drains there is less a reason to just walk into it as opposed to all the other main phase spells in the deck.  3 seperate colors has been fine for me.  If it was a double on a secondary color I'd have a problem (I would have problems casting True Believer in mine, since blue is my primary).  But most 3 mana combinations will get you there to be honest since you typically want access to all 3 colors.

[brianpk80]

True Believer
Dual white is playable especially with vials and also very nice to vial in at instant speed. I have to be careful though not to overdo the anti-combo. Still more bears is always good against aggro as well. This also stops slaver and belcher a likes. Duress effects are stopped too. Another thing he stops is hurkyl's recall wich is important to keep your vials and canonist in play. Definitely will get a
slot in this theme deck. Not just 2 most likely 3 in combination with 3 Teeg perhaps.

Thanks for the feedback.  It's true that Duress isn't a threat against a deck like this, while Thoughtseize is.  Believer is one of those creatures that is infinitely better in Vial Fish than Null Rod Fish.  Something about a Flash Uncounterable "You can't be targeted" effect often produces wild determinative swings in the game. 

Magus of the unseen
I have no experience with this card so i refrain from making a lot of comments on this card. My first observation is that he does require a turn to be active. And he looks fragile with a 1/1 body. But the answers he can provide are luring. You do need a mox and land in hand to stop Sundering Titan though because he will take out all your lands. Tinker seems to be a problem like someone stated before. Mage alone isn't going to cut it so it might be wise to give him some support.

Magus in hand w. a Vial means an opponent's Tinker will probably win you the game rather than vice versa.  I can't even count the number of times I've won games by an EoT Vialed Magus and then next turn clobbering someone with their own Colossus FtW.  With Time Vault, now it's the same kind of drastic swing that changes the game's outcome entirely.  That's one of the greatest strengths of a good Vial Fish build.  Uncounterable instant speed effects that singlehandedly redetermine the winner of the game. 

Gilded drake
I have had only positive results with Sower of Temptation. Rarely had problems casting him and rarely the opponent was in a position to counter Sower or steal his creature back. And when cast the effect was back breaking. This being said Gilded should be taken into consideration because of the lower casting cost and more synergy with vial.

The more and more I experiment with creatures having a CC over 2, the more I find I've weakened the build.  Keep in mind that Drake's effect is irreversible.  Opponent can't just get rid of the Drake and get their creature back.  Having the option of inserting Drakes onto the table uncounterably and at instant speed also gives you a lot of leverage to manipulate your opponent during combat stage, to thwart the Worldgorger Dragon combo, and some other things.   

Keep sharing, thanks
Guli

YW!

[SiegeX]

Hey Brian, good to see you posting here providing your expertise.  I was going to mention your Oath of Ghouls article as a reference for tweaking this deck.  Speaking of which, now that fish seems to be winning again, have you thought about brushing the dust off that deck and updating it with the latest creatures?

Magus in hand w. a Vial means an opponent's Tinker will probably win you the game rather than vice versa.  I can't even count the number of times I've won games by an EoT Vialed Magus and then next turn clobbering someone with their own Colossus FtW. 

It's worth mentioning that Magus cannot steal DSC and still be untapped on your turn because Magus will lose control as soon as you hit your cleanup step, negating any sort of EOT stealing tricks.  So moral of the story, if you're opponent is above 11, the best you can do is steal DSC when they announce their declare attackers step and give it back before your turn leaving it as a big blocker.   You'll have to continue this until you can throw enough creatures at them to bring them down below 11 to steal DSC on your turn and swing for lethal.

[Guli]

I did not wanted to make any hasty changes. I wanted a good amount of feedback before making changed to the deck. I don't know about you guys but some pieces of the puzzle are falling together with me. Making changes should mean improvement in my book. In this case i strongly believe there is progress.

I UPDATED THE LIST

So from now on the discussion will be based on the new list. I am sure that list will get a lot of feedback as well. And not everybody will be happy with the changes. Please share thoughts! The changes were based on:

Maximizing the effect of Vial by having all casting costs on 2.

Trygon Predator was not able to stop tinker, eventhough he is extremely good and underrated the magus provides a solution for both Tinker and stax.

I have found that Orim's Chant never really countered a Y will. He did act as a time walk most of the time but I is hard to asses how effective that was. I added addition STP to support Gilded Drake.

More creatures! Your creatures are your counter spells, removal spells and at the same time they beat. Tarmogoyf beats hard. Let's try him.


Don't stop the critics BTW, achieving perfection is not meant for men but striving to get there is.

Guli
Guli

[theLastGnu]

The more and more I experiment with creatures having a CC over 2, the more I find I've weakened the build.  Keep in mind that Drake's effect is irreversible.  Opponent can't just get rid of the Drake and get their creature back.  Having the option of inserting Drakes onto the table uncounterably and at instant speed also gives you a lot of leverage to manipulate your opponent during combat stage, to thwart the Worldgorger Dragon combo, and some other things.   

Am I missing something? How does the drake stop the WGD combo? If you steal it in response to it coming into play, the trigger still removes their animate from play, which still kills dragon, which still returns all removed permanents to their owners.

[SiegeX]

Am I missing something? How does the drake stop the WGD combo? If you steal it in response to it coming into play, the trigger still removes their animate from play, which still kills dragon, which still returns all removed permanents to their owners.

With a bit of thought, you're right, it doesn't work as the cards are currently worded.  Animate dead's Leaves Play ability specifically calls out "that creature's controller" which would be you when you steal it and thus you can (and must) sacrifice it.  Had Animate Dead just said to sacrifice it, then the combo would stop as your opponent can't sacrifice a creature he doesn't control.

Likewise, WGD says to return the removed cards to play, and since it didn't change zones it still remembers this information and returns the Animate Dead to its owner's control.

[nineisnoone]

True Believer works fine though.

[SiegeX]

Yes and no.  Since True Believer doesn't stop the combo, if they have Eternal Witness in their deck they will just recur some bounce spell an infi amount of times to remove the True Believer and then use whatever their win condition is, probably Ancestral.

[chief]

Does anyone really play dragon?  Regardless, swords their dragon and they'll cry.  Problem solved.

[Guli]

Doesn't canonist stop the combo in a way if he is protected.

Same goes for Believer.

And i think STP is the way too go. Make sure you have a teeg or sometimes to stop the counter magic so your STP gets through

[theLastGnu]

Doesn't canonist stop the combo in a way if he is protected.

Same goes for Believer.

And i think STP is the way too go. Make sure you have a teeg or sometimes to stop the counter magic so your STP gets through

Canonist would stop the combo if they're running the eternal witness/ancestral recall kill, but not if they're running oona. Like chief said, nobody's really running dragon anymore, so I wouldn't be too concerned about the match up

[brianpk80]

Hey Brian, good to see you posting here providing your expertise.  I was going to mention your Oath of Ghouls article as a reference for tweaking this deck.  Speaking of which, now that fish seems to be winning again, have you thought about brushing the dust off that deck and updating it with the latest creatures?

Thank you.  I have a little bit, and find that every time I try out a new component or idea, optimizing it tends to just swing it back to looking like its original form.  The last build I played was geared towards the pre-Tez meta.  Since Shards was released, the only changes I made were to put Canonists in the sideboard and swap some of the sideboard Maguses into the main deck.  \

In the past two years, the only decks I've played regularly were Fish (usually w. Oath of Ghouls) and Tyrant Oath of Druids.  I guess the Exodus expansion left a lasting mark on my design frameworks.     Since the restriction of the blue cards in June, I haven't reopened the Tyrant Oath file, though I still think Tyrant Oath can be made very strong by anyone willing to invest the effort.  Replacing lost Brainstorms with Lat-Nam's Legacy might be the only "drawback" the archetype needs to undergo in the post restriction environment. 

For Oath of Ghouls Fish, one interesting thing is that the deck only runs 2 Oath of Ghouls.  It's a support card, not necessary to win at all.  The deck is simply set up in way that this enchantment plays a role of a major threat and gives Fish resilience and inevitability, two things where it's usually not strong.  The build I have now has Cursecatcher (nicely synergic w. Oath) and a small red splash for Gorilla Shaman maindeck and Welders in the sideboard.  Weathered Wayfarer and AEther Vial itself are fantastic color fixers so the red splash was not a prob.   

It's worth mentioning that Magus cannot steal DSC and still be untapped on your turn because Magus will lose control as soon as you hit your cleanup step, negating any sort of EOT stealing tricks.  So moral of the story, if you're opponent is above 11, the best you can do is steal DSC when they announce their declare attackers step and give it back before your turn leaving it as a big blocker.   You'll have to continue this until you can throw enough creatures at them to bring them down below 11 to steal DSC on your turn and swing for lethal.

Absolutely and thank you for pointing this out for players who haven't used Magus firsthand yet.  Versus DSC, Magus is either defensive or offensive, but never both simultaneously. 

[Sporkcore]

I just used Magus of the Unseen for the first time in a tournament in my Tezz/Painter deck and I guess everyone considered him a threat, since he was only active during 2 of the who knows how many games I played him since everyone kept countering or killing him. When I did get to use him, it was to get me out of a Strip lock against Stackless Stax, stealing the Crucible of Worlds on my turn to replay the land that was getting stripped.

[nineisnoone]

For Oath of Ghouls Fish, one interesting thing is that the deck only runs 2 Oath of Ghouls.  It's a support card, not necessary to win at all.  The deck is simply set up in way that this enchantment plays a role of a major threat and gives Fish resilience and inevitability, two things where it's usually not strong.

Another interesting suggestion.  Would you run it over Skullclamp?  Both are somewhat dependent on your opponent dealing with your creatures, but Skullclamp seems stronger against aggro (where it can trade and draw 2), while Ghouls seems better against control (since you can Oath off countered creatures).  They both also do nothing against Swords or bounce.  Overall, I think Clamp is better because when it's good (aggro) it dominates.  Ghouls doesn't seem as strong in it's preferable match-up (control), and Skullclamp at the very least improves your clock against control. 

[brianpk80]

Another interesting suggestion.  Would you run it over Skullclamp?  Both are somewhat dependent on your opponent dealing with your creatures, but Skullclamp seems stronger against aggro (where it can trade and draw 2), while Ghouls seems better against control (since you can Oath off countered creatures).  They both also do nothing against Swords or bounce.  Overall, I think Clamp is better because when it's good (aggro) it dominates.  Ghouls doesn't seem as strong in it's preferable match-up (control), and Skullclamp at the very least improves your clock against control. 

Clamp scoops to Null Rod and most of the creatures I run are X/1, and not the kind of critters I want to Clamp out.  Ghouls shines much more against aggro because instead of tying up mana for casting creatures, only to kill them and draw two cards, it allows a recurring chump blocker every turn if needed.  Stax is another matchup where Ghouls is surprisingly good, while Clamp would not be.  It effectively takes one counter off an opponent's Smokestacks or keeps Juggernauts under control. 

Drawing cards isn't usually a problem for the build I have now since it runs 4 Bobs, Walk, Ancestral, 2 Intuitions, and some Weathered Wayfarers, which could bring up LoA on demand and even fill my hand more quickly towards 7 cards. 

I've tried Clamp many times and always end up dropping it. 

[brianpk80]

Am I missing something? How does the drake stop the WGD combo? If you steal it in response to it coming into play, the trigger still removes their animate from play, which still kills dragon, which still returns all removed permanents to their owners.

My mistake; I haven't had a Dragon match in... wow, a long time.  I confused Vialing a Drake w. Vialing a Stern Proctor out.  Forgiveness. 

[Guli]

Next to this aggro control i also ran a oath of ghoul based deck. It was more than just a support card in my case. I ran 3-4 if i remember correctly. Interesting mechanics that work well with oath of ghouls are:

sacrifice:
I used Children of Korlis with a lot success. I tried to make the deck survive the early turns with duress effects and korlis. Later i used Korlis as a draw engine with Sylvan library. Very effective against control/combo. Also nice against any creatures basicly. Even a DC could not finish without a walk or bounce. But the thing is you can go a zillion of routs with the sacrifice. I used Children to help me out early turns because the meta was full of tendrils. There are a lot of interesting creatures out their that have the ability to sacrifice and do something nasty. I ll give a couple of examples. It's nice to talk about Ghouls i like it even if it isn't really on topic.
Bloodfire Dwarf, Mogg Fanatic, Fulminator Mage, Viridian Zealot,... There are a lot options depending on your strategy you can select the correct effect related to the creature.

When it comes into play:
Stern Proctor, Sage of Epityr, Wall of Blossoms, Tin Street Hooligan, Stingscourger, Trinket Mage, Tidehollow Sculler, Eternal Witness, ...

Echo:
Echo & Comes into play together is actually very nice, Avalanche Riders

Evoke:
This is also a very good mechanics with ghouls

You can go all sorts of routes because the many possible variations. Make sure it works though, you have to select creature base very carefully. I tried a mana denial strategy with Avalanche riders, wasteland, strip, sinkholes, Fulminators, Hooligans, Null Rod ... It can be quite an effective lock with ghouls. But i never pursued to perfect the deck.

To stay on topic for a little bit, what are your thoughts on the new list (changes are made). I am having very good results so far with the new additions.

[brianpk80]

To stay on topic for a little bit, what are your thoughts on the new list (changes are made). I am having very good results so far with the new additions.

I like where you're heading with the new list.  One suggestion I would make would be to drop Swords to Plowshares completely and replace with Drake/Bouncer.  With all of the creatures you have, the deck is almost totally immune to Duress (Seize still hurts) and StP will just end up sitting in hand to be Duressed away.  Another fun peculiarity of Drakes in a deck like this is that they make good synergy with Serra Avenger.  Avenger might be worth considering in a few of the Tarmogoyf slots.  It Vials out @ 2 (even before the fourth turn) and helps defend you against any Drake trades that go wrong.  One example is when you absolutely need to steal your opponent's Goblin Welder or Grim Lavamancer for strategic reasons, but you end up getting hit with the Drake every turn. 

[Gurra]

I like Brian's idea of cutting the swords and replacing them with Waterfront bouncers. I would then also cut Rushing River as its importance has diminished with bouncers, drakes and maguses in the deck. It is only enchantments which remains completely untouchable but I think that is acceptable. I would also cut brainstorm since it doesn't give card advantage, although it improves your handquality, and it reduces the tempo of the deck. It is best in decks that draws many cards so it always can be able to trade away two cards. Now having cut the swords and the rushing river the case for mystical tutor is severely weakened. It can still fetch Ancestral which nets you +1 in card advantage and Time Walk which gives one extra turn for two cards. I'm not sure about it but I lean towards cutting it as well. That would give you three extra slots to toy around with. Possible cards to add are (among many other):

3  Serra Avenger (as Brian mentioned)
1  Canonist
1  Bouncer
1  Drake

I would add one avenger, one bouncer and one drake, but these three picks are very meta dependant I would say.

[Guli]

The main deck is solid, really rock solid. Walking beating T1-hosers. Still I believe the remaining open slots can be utilized more effectively. Instead of filling up those slots with support cards to strengthen the less favorable match ups I am under the impression that this deck can do much more. With such an aggressive stand against combo (it seems defensive but it is quite aggressive) because of the strong turns 2-3-4 why not add some kind of combo win condition ourselves. Or play something very cute and powerful like Tinker. I also tried finding ways to abuse Intuition (No not with accumulated knowledge). I did not find anything very spectacular.
Intuition: Regrowth, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall (you get something good every time)
Intuition: Strip, Life from the loam, Bazaar (nice to draw more cards with bazaar, recover your land count,start stripping and making Tarm bigger)
Intuition: 3x creature of your chose -> With vial@2 intuition can act as a counter or creature removal (Tarm blocks)

I tried things with time vault but did not find anything yet. With gifts it is possible to get regrowth+will+key+vault and this is basically game over. Because i intend to stop gifts as one of my strategies i don't want to use it myself. And besides I would not have the mana base to set up a deadly gifts anyway.

Can i get you guys thinking again? Try to find a good strong toolbox for intuition. And give feedback to my suggestions. (strip,Loam,regrowth,bazaar,intuition)
And also thought and suggestions about Tinker weather you agree or not and if you do agree how can Tinker be used effectively in this deck.

Another thing i considered is to try to up the blue count so Force of Will could be used without damaging the deck too much. The idea is to strengthen your turn 0-1 strong. Somehow i have to make sure i don't end up with force in my hand and a TeeG on the board. Possible solutions? Lat-Nam's Legacy?

I don't think Serra avenger is a very good idea  for this deck. I think she would be very useful though but that might not be enough. Tarm is big enough to be considered as a pet for TeeG. Avenger is not a really impressive clock at all so the argument of clock=control does not count for Serra Avenger. She does nothing game changing. I am happy by this route really, its a lot of creatures @2 mana cost and they all help out but the deck was much more focused and now it is searching for its purpose again because of so many changes. Cutting the orim's and adding more creatures resulted in a tempo loss. I don't get my core creatures as fast as i did before. I don't want to go straight back to the original deck list but playing with more creatures does not always mean you end up casting more creatures. Bouncer and Drake are like heaven on earth when it comes to creature control, but you still need a card in your hand to use bouncer and also you have to wait a turn. And you have to make choices.

Core creature base: Anti-combo/control TeeG, Canonist, Believer, Mage, Safekeeper
Support creature base 1: Creature control Drake, Bouncer, Tarm
Support creature base 2: Artifact control Magus of the unseen

Another card i considered was Children of Korlis. It improves turn 1 against storm and can get rid of bridges versus dredge. Also nice against aggro in general. And last but not least it has an immediate effect (speed).

Another card is Kataki wich is great against stax too. Problem is he doesnt stop tinker. But then you have drake and bouncer for that (if they make it maindeck). If Kataki is used i would like to have more mana denial in the mix. Maybe 12-13 slots is enough to get in kataki/strip&waste/loam/thorn's...

I think i covered most of my thoughts, concerns and ideas. Now i would like to hear another long discussion with lots of good/bad suggestions.

Keep it coming,

Guli

[natron77]

This has been quoted several times and yet no one has pointed something critical out:

RE: Sower,  I think you should give Gilded Drake a shot.  Not only is he way easier to hard cast at 1U but he is already at the magic number for Vial so you can slip him in without fear of anything but a stifle.

Gilded Drake's trigger can't be Stifled (thanks to an odd rules job they did to get it to sacrifice correctly), unless they want to waste the stifle on your Vial activation.

Though this wasn't likely a major concern, it does increase the power of Gilded Drake slightly.

[nineisnoone]

Drawing cards isn't usually a problem for the build I have now since it runs 4 Bobs, Walk, Ancestral, 2 Intuitions, and some Weathered Wayfarers, which could bring up LoA on demand and even fill my hand more quickly towards 7 cards.

Care to post your list?  You make good points, and certainly sounds like Oath would be the better call in your deck.  But I run more 2/2's and no Intuitions or Wayfarer's.  I don't necessarily agree with you on your analysis on aggro, as I would rather draw 2 then recur a chump blocker.  I'm also running maindeck removal so that's a factor as well.  Plus, if you are trading creatures there is no guarantee that you will have more creatures in your graveyard than your opponent.  But then again if you are running 1/1's with sacrifice abilities, you probably can guaranteed it. 

[Guli]

I think i am closer to the solution with the following list: i haven't included intuition or things like tinker but i am not dismissing that idea either.


    3 Windswept Heath
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Plains
    1 Island
    4 Savannah
    3 Tundra
    3 Flooded Strand

// Creatures
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 Sylvan Safekeeper
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    3 True Believer
    3 Gilded Drake (oath, tinker, aggro,...)
    3 Magus of the Unseen (tinker,stax, Tvault,...)
    3 Waterfront Bouncer (tinker,oath, aggro) (also serves as protection - bounce your own dude and vial it back in - synergy with drake,mage, tarm)

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Force of Will (With 3x3x3 drake, bouncer, magus and the 6 other blue i think force is playable again. Problem is Teeg, but i guess i could use bouncer to make force somewhat useful when that situation arises)
    3 OPEN SLOTS (i am trying out oxidize to give me better game against artifact.dec and also nice against the current time vault combo, this is a meta call though, for me it works. These slots could be Stifle to up the blue count, )

This is experimental but it looks good. About oxidize, its cheap, could get rid of Chalice@2 and i see a good portion of artifacts around that need to be dealt with. And if it is really useful it is most likely against a deck that can be dealt with and you can live with the 3 dead slots. Just side them out. And i think almost every deck packs at least some artifact. Like Needle or mishra. I think he will be a cheap and useful card.

What you guys think about this list? More competitive than the original one?