Aggro & Control, the real meaning: Mr. Gaddock

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Ya this deck needs improvement so that one seems more fitting.

[Vegeta2711]

This deck probably shouldn't be in open as (to my knowledge) it has no impressive tournament finishes.

Vintage Open Forum
A forum for serious Vintage discussion. Open to all.
Moderators: Zherbus, Bram, Matt, Klep, Dante

Bolded for fail.

This deck is just a mish-mash of crap (read: Dis. Capsule, True Believer, GAMBLE and subsequent refusal to hear any logic about it with the response of 'BUT I THINK IT'S GOOD!) and cards that work together in cute ways. Basically it's just a bunch of cards that have been good in various decks in Vintage and then smushed together with 0 consideration given to why they worked so well in the first place. And yes, I realize GIANT WALL OF TEXT has already been posted in response to that criticism, but that essentially boiled down to 'I want to do something different from normal fish! WAHHHHH'. As Shay already pointed out, none of these cards are really conducive to working together and you have yet to put a cohesive strategy into the deck.

[Guli]

That is simply not true, the cards do work well together, you just have to see it and play it to find out i guess, because my input is obviously not enough. I think the seriousness depends on you guys. If you keep breaking down, then you are the cause of the nonsense in the first place. I explained in depth why the chosen creature base is chosen and how they work together. If you don't agree then reply why and on what your con argument is based on. Capsule is irrelevant that card is just brought up in between nobody cares about that card. True Believer is not crap, saying that is utterly bullshit and saying that tells enough. I don't just THINK it is good, i explain why it is good and if you ignore and if your only reply to my explaination is to break it down without argumentation then it is just empty shells flying around. If you can't debate in the proper way than stick to reading. BTW 'this deck'? Which deck? What list are you talking about there are several posted. Are you guys just fooling around? Please be more concrete and elaborate.

[Vegeta2711]

you just have to see it and play it to find out

People have played against you with you piloting the deck. They also smashed you. You then say, 'Oh I would've / should've won anyway'. I mean it's really hard to argue with logical retorts like that. I mean it's utterly fool-proof!

True Believer is not crap, saying that is utterly bullshit and saying that tells enough.

Yes, don't counter the Necro, counter the Donate. That's the way to win games.

[Guli]

What are you talking about. I asked you to be concrete and you still remain so vague.

'People' What people, who are you talking about?
'Smashed' What do you mean with smashed? Explain?

I smell a very personal issue, and that is something to talk about but not in this thread, PM me and we can talk.

I think it is very disrespectful towards the community what you are doing. I apologize to all the readers for my behavior I realize this is personal now and belongs in the PM box.

[Demonic Attorney]

In the estimation of the moderation staff (who have sole responsibility for deciding if a thread belongs in Open or Improvement), this list is not sufficiently refined for the Open forum.  TAL and Eastman have provided valuable criticisms that merit attention.  The lack of powerful internal synergies and efficient lines of offense or disruption are serious obstacles that this deck needs to address before I'd expect it to do well in tournaments.  If anyone has further questions, PM me or another moderator.  Feel free to discuss the merits of this deck or further ideas to refine it, but do not continue to debate whether it belongs in Improvement or Open in this thread.

[Guli]

You can all go to hell.

EDIT; to the trolls

[Demonic Attorney]

Look.  No one here is under any obligation to favorably receive every idea that comes down the pike, and TMD does not exist to be a giant troupe of yes-men for every new poster with a decklist.   If that was what we did, no one would bother posting here, including you.  You posted the deck to get feedback, and feedback is what you got.  I'm sorry it wasn't the kind of feedback you were hoping for, but lashing out at people isn't going to change their minds.

It's happened before that TMD has been wrong in its response to new decks.  If you're so convinced we're off-base and that our closed minds are preventing us from appreciating the thought that went into your list, by all means, play it in a tournament advertised on here and report favorable results.  No one can dispute performance, and if your deck wins consistently, I give you my personal word that I, TAL, and Eastman will be among the first people to retract our criticisms.

That having been said, TMD can't and doesn't tolerate interpersonal attacks that fall short of our standards of civility.  Because of that, verbal warning to Veggies and Guli.  Possibly more to follow.

[Demonic Attorney]

Full Warning to Guli for deleting an active thread.  Closed for now to prevent further deletion.

[brianpk80]

Just to clarify for anyone reading, the thread is now open again so substantive posts can be added.  I'm not a moderator but I would caution against discussing the thread's displacement in this thread itself.  Questions/concerns can be addressed by private message.  Happy Holidays.

[Schonkreuz]

I've wanted to post on this thread for a while but I never got a chance to. Recently one of my friends got into vintage and I was trying to find a deck for her to play. After thinking for a little I decided that it wouldn't be a bad idea for her to play my WBg list, it has been a long long while since I played it and before I handed her the deck I wanted to get some feedback on it.

Lands
    1  Bayou
    2  Bloodstained Mire
    1  Plains
    1  Forest
    2  Savannah
    3  Scrubland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Swamp
    3  Wasteland
    3 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
    4  Aven Mindcensor
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Ethersworn Canonist
    3  Gaddock Teeg
    4  Tarmogoyf
    4  Tidehollow Sculler

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    4  Null Rod
    4  Swords to Plowshares
    4  Thoughtseize1
    1   Kroson Grip
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor

We haven't really gottena side board together for it yet, and I decided not to make any changes to it until I got some good feedback. I was thinking when the new set comes out to replace swords with Path to Exile, seemed like a good change.
   

EDIT: I swapped regrowth out for a main grip.

[nineisnoone]

Looks pretty solid to me.  I've never been a Mindsensor fan (a personal thing) so I wouldn't go with it.  I prefer Shadow of Doubt actually.  2 mana and cantrips.

Regrowth is interesting, but I just don't see you needing the anything that much.  And if you really wanted the effect I would just stick with Yawgmoth's Will.

I think most people will tell you that Swords is better than Path, but I'm not entirely convinced. So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on it.

[Schonkreuz]

The reason I would think that path would be better is because 11(well most of the time life is a good bit for a deck full of 2/somethings. Think about how much easier it will be for these decks if the person only gets some land!

Backing up Mindcensor it will at least cause some problems with fetchlands, if not making it difficult to tutor up answers to certain cards. Also the biggest thing I have to say for it is that when people chalice for 2 it is the only creature in the main that can still be played. Yes this sucks, and yes there will be answers for it on the side. I was considering krosan grip or Uktabi Orangutan.

The regrowth thing is a little random, I just don't know what other card would work well in the spot. And Yawg will seems a little strange. Any other suggestions?

[UnholyAlliance]

Since Chalice @ 2 hurts so much and the Oath match up seems like it will really suck, how about throw the grip in the main? You can even tutor for it in a pinch if mindcensor isn't online. Although explosives could work, again if the disynergy with the rods weren't present.

[Guli]

Since Chalice @ 2 hurts so much and the Oath match up seems like it will really suck, how about throw the grip in the main? You can even tutor for it in a pinch if mindcensor isn't online. Although explosives could work, again if the disynergy with the rods weren't present.

1. Mindcensor is only for the opponent
2. Gaddock prevents spells wtih X in their casting cost

[Schonkreuz]

I know I will have ponies (Ronom Unicorns) on the SB for Oath, maybe a seal or two. In the main there is the thoughtseizes and tidehollow scullers for disruption. I think out of all of this stuff the ponies will help the most, any other suggestions?

[Guli]

I use Ray of revelation and STP in side and against some versions I side in crypt.

[Schonkreuz]

Ray would work well, can cast and flash it back. STP is in the main(soon to be paths!!!)

What to do when they board in the angels and other shroud having creatures though, maybe she could use some sort of edit >shrugs< just throwing out suggestions here.

Oh! This poor girl had the worst experience at out last tournament, she got tinker roboted all night. She wasn't playing this deck of course but she wanted a little extra protection so we were talking about deglamers. Sounds good?

[UnholyAlliance]

Clearly I don't see enough of Mindcensor in my meta to even remember the ability correctly. Blah! I still think Krosan Grip is better then Regrowth in that slot though. Chalice, Pre-board Oath, Platz, Naught and other random pesky enchantments/artifacts (back to basics, bitterblossom, ensnaring bridge, etc.) all fall beneath the Krosan Grip. Split second is the nuts btw.
Opposing Explosives- no prob. Powder Keg- same. Sensei's Top- haha. Time Vault- you thought so. The versatility of the grip cannot be ignored.
Deglamer is good as Colossus protection. Definitely.

Edit- Props for rescuing the thread!

[Schonkreuz]

I do like the idea of the grip in the main not that you name off all of that. List changed!!! She was play testing the other night and AMAZINGLY won through a chalice on two with birdy beatdown, I must say I recall the situation giving me a headache.  So I think from where I just need to get a SB for the deck. With some number of seals, deglamers, ponies and other cards. >nods<

[Miaou]

I have been working on a deck using the same colors (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36982.0) and here are my impressions:
- the Tidehollow Scullers are too slow. I would rather have 4x Duress since you don't have any other reliable 1st turn play. You have plenty of creatures and turn 2 threats, so this could help you out against combo.

- Minor detail, but since you have a forest and a plains as basics, then I think you should add a 4th Windswept Heath instead of the Mire. Also maybe replace the Mire for a Wooded Foothills or Flooded Strand to allow you to get acces to the basics. Also while on the mana base, maybe adding a 4th Wasteland would complement your mana denial plan (rods and mindcensors).

- I love Krosan Grip, but I find it hard to play it reliably. Sometimes especially with Wastelands, you get stuck on two lands and a key artifact/enchantment you need to take out. Which is why I use Seal of Primordium. It can bypass Oaths discard and just sit there until you need it. Also prevents Tez from doing its thing if you have it in play.

- The Mindcensors are really great, and I wouldn't cut them. They offer Tinker protection and stop tutors/fetchs.

Anyways, let me know how the tourney goes!

[the boogie man]

If It hasn't been discussed yet, minscensor makes path to exile much better.

How long do your games go, usually? Would life from the loam, and possibly raven's crime, be to slow/ mana intensive?

[Schonkreuz]

- I love Krosan Grip, but I find it hard to play it reliably. Sometimes especially with Wastelands, you get stuck on two lands and a key artifact/enchantment you need to take out. Which is why I use Seal of Primordium.

The main reason it is krosan instead of seal is because seal cost 2. Krson is in the main because chalice on two very simply destroys this deck, krosan is a main solution to this as well as a nifty thing to have vs some random artifact decks.  On the sb there will be some seals and other things, this was just a replacement for the main regrowth.

I have been considering cutting the null rods for aether vials for two reasons. 1) this gives me something to do turn one when I have no mox and 2) because it would do more vs heavy control decks. Thoughts?

How long do your games go, usually? Would life from the loam, and possibly raven's crime, be to slow/ mana intensive?

When I played the deck games didn't last that long, little 2/somethings add up when you are spitting several of them out a turn.

- Minor detail, but since you have a forest and a plains as basics, then I think you should add a 4th Windswept Heath instead of the Mire. Also maybe replace the Mire for a Wooded Foothills or Flooded Strand to allow you to get acces to the basics. Also while on the mana base, maybe adding a 4th Wasteland would complement your mana denial plan (rods and mindcensors).

Regarding this there are a few little reason, first off the Mire is a mire because of proxy count, we do not have all of these cards but we could get a hold of a mire to put in the spot. The 3 wasteland count was a personal decision, I have the WORST luck when it comes to opening hands with wastes as the only source, this was my way of fixing this problem. I am not playing the deck however, if she feels that she would like the other waste I will surly find a way to put it in there.

Thanks for all the feedback!!!

[Miaou]

Last thing about Krosan Grip v.s. Chalice:
I believe that 2 major decks play Chalice: Oath and Workshop variants.
Against Oath, it won't be set at 2, and while the Grip is uncounterable, it is vulnerable to discard.
Against Workshop, should they complement their Chalice with Spheres and Wastelands, which they usually do, you will have a very hard time reaching enough mana to cast that Grip. And since Seal can come out before the Chalice is even cast, it is why I use it.

However that is how I see things, it is obviously your call

[Schonkreuz]

A sad but true fact is that when I play I'm usually playing with either friends or in a weekly tournament, being weekly people like to try out new ideas and mess around with decks a lot...things don't always follow the guidelines they should, I understand your reasoning however. Any thoughts on cutting null rods for aether vials?

[UnholyAlliance]

Since Aether Vial avoids Chalice altogether (and not to mention Standstill) sounds like a winner to me!

[Dr.KnowMaD]

The rod or vial topic has been addressed in earlier post and is actually one of the main points behind this thread.  It would seem that that the vials worked best given more focus on them and maximizing their potential which had an effect on the whole decks build and play.  The null rods will effect your opponent more and is needed in a build like this that gains advantage with incremental disruption in as many areas as possible to give less outs.  Hand, board, mana, fetching the library, ex.. to give time to get in with the dudes.

With that said I do like the vial a lot and though typically I wouldn't consider running the two together Maybe a 3 & 2 could work.  The vials would have to be more as back up mana/disruption play, waiting for someone to wax the rod or you don't see a rod, but still that doesn't sound that great to me and I would stick with the rods or something like Thorn of Amethyst.

Krosan Grip in the main is Very Good.  It has saved game one for me numerous times.  I find this card More reliable to play because of the Split Second.  It always goes through and you can't even respond, no crypt, no triskelion, no seal activation, ex.. no response.  To me that is gold.   I don't have any problems producing the three mana needed.  I do tend to play a couple more available mana sources.  

Mindcensor is also a very good effect on the game at instant speed and with wings.  Good converted mana cost (I never liked all the beaters to sit at two).  I would keep it.


Later,
Dr.KnowMaD

Avoiding chalice and stopping Blue cold is the Vexing Shusher

[nineisnoone]

If It hasn't been discussed yet, minscensor makes path to exile much better.

Ooooh... Now that makes me want to play Exile....

[Guli]

In a fish deck that doesn't use mana denial as a strategy, exiles are not bad at all. However that still doesn't mean you HAVE to play them maindeck.

[Schonkreuz]

I like this mostly just because there is no massive amount of life gain, I put them main because you never know when some welder/metalworker/big dude needs a time out.