[Premium Article] Insider Trading - Are Proxies Hurting Vintage Tournament Atten

[Vegeta2711]

what if they were to just reprint everything on magic online.  adding electronic copies of power et al. really doesnt violate their reprint policy.

Yes, that's what Classic needs, more cards that are almost impossible to get w/o spending massive bank and further removing players from the pool. How good. Force of Will is already up to 80 tix and going up and stuff like Underground Sea is around 50. And there's no proxies to help offset costs there. :/

[Thisson]

What nobody has addressed is this:

If they do not reprint the cards, and the vintage format dies completely, doesn't that reduce the value of the collectibles, too?  I think it does.

And I agree with the point that printing new versions with new artwork doesn't impact the collectibility of the original cards.

Wizards has to balance the collectibility aspect with the playability aspect, or both interests lose.  Magic is 15+ years old.  The original cardpool cannot service the playability needs of the format forever, and therefore it MUST be reprinted at some point, in some fashion, for the format to survive.

[sephorusFR]

Wizards has to balance the collectibility aspect with the playability aspect, or both interests lose.  Magic is 15+ years old.  The original cardpool cannot service the playability needs of the format forever, and therefore it MUST be reprinted at some point, in some fashion, for the format to survive.

I agree. Things like cardboard are bound to get destroyed/damaged so as time goes the supply of playable cards of more then 10 years old will start to fall.
I don't think reprinting a small amount of 10+ years old card with new card face/art will impact the older one that will keep their collectible value as being 'the original ones'.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Wizards has to balance the collectibility aspect with the playability aspect, or both interests lose.  Magic is 15+ years old.  The original cardpool cannot service the playability needs of the format forever, and therefore it MUST be reprinted at some point, in some fashion, for the format to survive.

I agree. Things like cardboard are bound to get destroyed/damaged so as time goes the supply of playable cards of more then 10 years old will start to fall.
I don't think reprinting a small amount of 10+ years old card with new card face/art will impact the older one that will keep their collectible value as being 'the original ones'.

Power 9 is so expensive because first it is playable, then second as unique in the sense that it was only printed in ABU, then THIRD as collectible since alpha/beta is more than unlimited. There is a good reason a beta Blaze of Glory isn't $1000. I mean just look at Sol Ring. About 90% of the time in 60%+ of T8 decks in the current metagame it is better than a Mox and yet just being in Revised has the value slashed massively compared to P9.

As I said earlier Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, and Mana Drain aren't on the reserved list and before doing anything as drastic as reprinting P9 they should first do a test run on those 3 expensive cards for some actual data.

[Harlequin]

Sol ring was uncommon in ABU and revised... so its not really apples and apples.

Perhapse a better comparison are Blue Duals.  The existance of Revised blue duals (arguable compounded by the existance of widely avaible 'new' shock-duals) hasn't changed the fact that Beta blue duals are just shy of 10 TIMES the price for thier revised counterparts.

Or a less played card like Fastbond (restricted and banned like mox, but far far less played) is something like 15 TIMES the price for a black boarder over a crispy revised one.

[Tha Gunslinga]

What nobody has addressed is this:

If they do not reprint the cards, and the vintage format dies completely, doesn't that reduce the value of the collectibles, too?  I think it does.

Fortunately we have these things called proxies, so your argument is irrelevant for most of the Vintage world.

Perhapse a better comparison are Blue Duals.  The existance of Revised blue duals (arguable compounded by the existance of widely avaible 'new' shock-duals) hasn't changed the fact that Beta blue duals are just shy of 10 TIMES the price for thier revised counterparts.

Duals are playable in three times as many formats as the P9 are--EDH, Legacy, and Vintage, compared to just Vintage.  Fastbond is a good comparison, but the reason WB ones are so cheap is that Revised had a horrifyingly large print run, and Fastbond is restricted and very rarely played, so most players need 0 or 1.

[wiley]

What nobody has addressed is this:

If they do not reprint the cards, and the vintage format dies completely, doesn't that reduce the value of the collectibles, too?  I think it does.

Fortunately we have these things called proxies, so your argument is irrelevant for most of the Vintage world.

I thought we wanted to get more sanctioned tournament and thereby garner more support from wizards and introducing more people to the format we love.  Proxies definitely don't help with that.

Perhapse a better comparison are Blue Duals.  The existance of Revised blue duals (arguable compounded by the existance of widely avaible 'new' shock-duals) hasn't changed the fact that Beta blue duals are just shy of 10 TIMES the price for thier revised counterparts.

Duals are playable in three times as many formats as the P9 are--EDH, Legacy, and Vintage, compared to just Vintage.  Fastbond is a good comparison, but the reason WB ones are so cheap is that Revised had a horrifyingly large print run, and Fastbond is restricted and very rarely played, so most players need 0 or 1.

Maybe I just don't get it but how does that statement explain the 15:1 ratio for fastbond compared to the 10:1 ratio for u duals?  Isn't it the collectability of those alpha and beta cards that drives up the price no matter what?  How about shivan dragon as an example?

[policehq]

What nobody has addressed is this:

If they do not reprint the cards, and the vintage format dies completely, doesn't that reduce the value of the collectibles, too?  I think it does.

Fortunately we have these things called proxies, so your argument is irrelevant for most of the Vintage world.

Check the thread title; I think his argument has a place. This whole discussion began because there is an article (are articles) suggesting that proxies are ruining format health.

Again, do the values of power cards depend on the success of the format? Is the success of the format truly going down because of proxies? (Thisson I basically wrote your same post on the page before.) If yes, for anyone crying about their investment, it should be known that more power cards mean more non-proxy, sanctioned, healthy Vintage tournaments which also mean a secured long-term investment if Wizards were to reprint power.

[oneofchaos]

Even if we do away with proxies and wizards decides to start caring, is it worth the expense of all the proxy players leaving our format?

[Purple Hat]

Even if we do away with proxies and wizards decides to start caring, is it worth the expense of all the proxy players leaving our format?

If there were distinct, ugly, reasonably obtainable reprints that wouldn't be an issue.

[policehq]

Attracting new players and keeping new players coming for a long time sounds a lot healthier than letting the format die a slow death as people that have been playing long enough/can currently afford Power start jobs, families, making real investments, etc.

EDIT: And a reprint, plus the subsequent growth of sanctioned tournaments, would create more interaction between Vintage and wotc.

I don't believe that a big majority of proxy players would quit because non-proxy tournaments and affordable power were reprinted. If they would, then they aren't doing the format any good anyway: not supporting dealers. Their chairs in the tournaments would be filled by new players, so... fare them well.

[Zieby]

I think proxies isn't hurting any thing.

Proxies give the younger and less fortuned players the chance to compete in Vintage.

That attendance becomes lower lies all in the hands of organizers.

For reference please check this topic http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37746.0
Edition 5 and 6 had also 50+ players.

There I explain why it works and yes that can be done everywhere.

Greetz Arjan

[arctic79]

Three words "From the Vault".  A run like that could be exactly what the doctor ordered.  Look at the new "From the Vault" Angels vs. Demons, it has such a small print run that my supplier can only get 6 from his distributor and he has had 200 requests.  This could be the fine line of supplying the market with new cardboard yet keeping values in check.

Without new affordable cardboard and/or without proxies, sanctioned play is just not going to happen on a large scale.  The kids may as well play legacy.

[stu55]

It isnt FTV: A&D, that is just duel decks. The next FTV is "Exiled" which are cards that were banned at one point. So we will see what a Type 1 card being reprinted does the its 2ndary market value

[Thisson]

Just a note to say that I don't think printing ugly new versions is a good idea.  Magic benefits from having attractive cards.  The key is just to have a new set of art, in the style of the new card frames, so the collectors can distinguish the original versions.

Also, I will make one new point that nobody has yet addressed: the Vintage format may also be dying due to an overabundance of choice in cards to play with: things were simpler when you only had 5 sets available to choose cards from.

As an *experiment*, someone might wish to run a vintage event where players can only use cards printed up through Arabian Nights (for example).  As a player, I would find that fun (I could break out my old land destruction or juzam djinn decks, both of which are "too slow" in the current version of vintage).

[Explosion]

I for one am hoping that what WotC is doing with FTV: Exiled is testing the waters to see how (limited) reprints of popular cards affect the prices of the originals. If they find that an influx of new cards actually raises the profile of these (broken) cards and spurs interest (and prices), then they'll know they're on to something. If printing new border, foil Balance & Friends lowers prices, they'll know the Reserve List needs to be respected.

That being said, Ye Olde Beta Bling is enough alone to raise the price of cards dramatically. A card like Serra Angel, that's been reprinted many times over, and was an uncommon for most of its run, is $50 mint for Beta, and $75 for Alpha on Star City Games. Meanwhile, they sell 10th Edition (black borders again! ZOMG) for $3. Shivan Dragon is $2-3 for mint versions depending on edition, but $200 for Alpha/Beta, and still $30 for Unlimited. Popular cards retain value for old "bling" editions, even if reprinted many times.

Printing Power 9 cards with different art, new borders is not guaranteed to devalue the old ones. As of now, Demonic Tutor is $100/$75 for Alpha/Beta, $15 for Unlimited, $10 for Revised, and $7.50 for DvD. Let's come back to this in 3-6 months and see if this card finds itself devalued from the reprint. A lot of this theorycrafting just won't work better than seeing what actually happens.

Also, if this community prefers another gauge of prices than SCG, let me know, but I think D. Tutor is a good way to measure how a limited reprint might effect prices of old cards.

[Yare]

This article went free today. Link is here.

A pretty interesting read. I don't have anything to add right now as I need to reflect on it a little bit, but I wanted to point out that it was free so everybody could now read it.

Edit: I take that back, I do have an initial thought. What are the DCI restrictions, if any, concerning prizes for sanctioned events? (namely Vintage events, though I would presume they're the same for every event).

[evouga]

I found it to be an interesting article, but completely disagree with his final point, and his thesis.

I:
- started playing during 4th edition, so own many of the more recent Type I staples (FoW, Urza goodies, fetchlands, etc). I don't own the older (and more expensive) cards, such as power, Mana Drain, dual lands, etc.
- won't spend thousands upfront to buy these cards.
- refuse to play "budget" decks competitively, and serve as a punching bag to players who can afford access to all of the cards. At that point I'm just as happy playing casual duels against friends who let me borrow a deck, or on MWS.
- am willing to spend money on the secondary market *over time* to expand my collection.
- am far from the world's best Type I player, but have a fairly good understanding of the rules and can play without being a jerk.
- will be effectively expelled from serious play if proxy use is curtailed.

I love playing Vintage - I feel it's the most fun of the Magic formats - but I don't love it enough to go to ebay tonight and spend $3,000. I am one of those mythical "new players" for whom proxies make the difference between being able to play or not, and I find it hard to believe that I'm rare.

[Caron]

... I play in Italy, last big tournament (D-DAY empoli florence) i went to, saw nearly 200 participants almost one month and a half ago.. with no proxy allowed.. it was a great event. (guys form starcity were there too).
... I think there are many different good unpowered decks (no P9)...
... I don't like proxies (i have all the P9 etc.)... i don't play events where proxy are allowed...

.. even if collectors will not agree... i realy think that WIZARD should modify the non-reprint policy...
starting to print again old cards in the new sets in order to get back the old magic... and making a very good business with it... will you buy blisters of a new set if one single P9 piece wuold be reprinted? i guess yes...
... what would happen if every new set, from now on, will have at least 1 p 9 piece and some old cards in it?

I guess a lot of people would buy it, a lot of people would start to play vintage again.. and a new interest would raise... coming back to something more similar to the first magic...

Even if I have all old cards (i'm a very old player), i Would really like to see them reprinted...

This is only my opinion.. maybe many of you will hate me for that...
but what are you going to do with you cards if there are no other ppl to play with in your format???
.. proxys are not good for magic... i agree...
but i think Type 1 (vintage..) will not have a long life if things will continue this way..

... CARONDIMONIO

[Diakonov]

Reprinting power would definitely help Vintage, no doubt there.  I think that the Reserved List, which may have seemed like a good idea at first, ended up actually being a real problem for Vintage in the long run.

I kind of like the idea of Wizards printing official Blank Cards or Wild Cards to represent other cards, specifically to be used with sanctioned Vintage or Eternal tournaments (perhaps only to represent those cards that are no longer legal in Extended to ensure that it won't hurt their sales).  That way they could run sanctioned events that sort of allow the proxy concept while still being able to make money on cardboard.  This would also get around the Reserved List without stepping on the toes of those who own power.

[feyd]

Let me start by saying this article made me gag; It is elitist people like the author who are damaging vintages reputation more than the high price barrier ever would.  Let me tell you a little story.
Four of my friends and I played type 2 tournaments at the local card shop.  They knew I went pretty often to Pennsylvania to go to a vintage tournament and asked me about it.  I told them it would be a lot of help if they helped me test for the upcoming tournament with some decks I put together.  Playing against me with the decks I built (all the decks I built could have been used in the tournament as I have an enormous collection and decks like TPS, slaver, workshop, and r/g beats only needed ten proxies or less) got them all very interested in the format.  It didn't take much to convince them to come along and play in the tournament with the decks I would provide, they would only need to pay for their own entry.  It turns out two of us just missed the top eight and my one friend, Mark, takes home second place at the first vintage tournament he ever attended.  We all had a blast.  We all still game magic together and two of my friends are starting to slowly put vintage collections together (starting with the cheaper stuff like intuition, force of will, AK. stuff like that).  None of this would have been possible if it had not been for ten proxy events.

[Caron]

.. i don't think it has anything to do with being elitists feyd..
Magic is a Collectable Card Game,
collect is part of the game...
cards/spells are part of the game..
you play poker, you can play with whichever card deck you want..
you play magic, you have to build your own deck with a defined set of existing cards, not with whichever card you want to use or create...
Proxy playing is good if sometime happens... but you have more proxy games than sanctioned non proxy games.. the format slowly dies..
..so... if you want to play real magic you use 1) no p9 good deck 2) buy P9 etc.   3) hope tha WIZARDs understand that they have to print old cards again in order to give low price access to them also to people who don't want to spend too much money in the game.
As i've told.. i hope that number 3) will happen... i would like that everyone could buy moxes etc. at a reasonable price.. so everyone will start playing T1 with the same possibilities.. that would be great..
...CARONDIMONIO

[ashiXIII]

I'm kinda curious how many people advocating the reprint of power actually own power. I'd wager something like 90% who think it's a good idea don't own it, and 90% who own it think it's a bad idea.

[Caron]

.. i own them, even in alpha and beta versions... but still i would realy like wizard to print them again...
and i think you are wrong ashi.. if you are a good player.. and you like magic... even if you have them.. you would like also your friends to have them... if they need them for playing..
CARONDIMONIO

[LotusHead]

What would be the worst that could happen if Wizards suddenly (or DCI) put out a "Vintage Proxy Free Pass" list.

The list would contain say, P9, Shops, Bazaar and Mana Drains and those cards only. Those cards people would be allowed to proxy to their heart's content (since they will never be reprinted ever ever ever).

Sactioned Vintage Proxy Free Pass list. 

Then the barrier would be lessened for new players, and players would still have to buy new packs/cards to stay current?

If such a thing happend, I could see ending proxies in America (if DCI Sanction Proxy list existed), with non-sanctioned proxy fests in local meta's of people who just love the format. 

Would the European Metagame dissolve isntantly?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

What would be the worst that could happen if Wizards suddenly (or DCI) put out a "Vintage Proxy Free Pass" list.

The list would contain say, P9, Shops, Bazaar and Mana Drains and those cards only. Those cards people would be allowed to proxy to their heart's content (since they will never be reprinted ever ever ever).

Maybe I'm just blind and my ctrl+f function is broken but I don't see Mana Drain anywhere on the reserved list. They can print off a million sheets of Mana Drains (and Grim Tutors/Imperial Seals which might be actually harder to find than P9 since Portal was essentially colored toilet paper for 8 years) and nobody could complain. I don't own P9 and I still don't think it is a good idea for them to run off reprints of P9 without having some actual data on reprinting old, expensive, busted cards.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

[Diakonov]

What would be the worst that could happen if Wizards suddenly (or DCI) put out a "Vintage Proxy Free Pass" list.

The list would contain say, P9, Shops, Bazaar and Mana Drains and those cards only. Those cards people would be allowed to proxy to their heart's content (since they will never be reprinted ever ever ever).

Sactioned Vintage Proxy Free Pass list. 

Then the barrier would be lessened for new players, and players would still have to buy new packs/cards to stay current?

If such a thing happend, I could see ending proxies in America (if DCI Sanction Proxy list existed), with non-sanctioned proxy fests in local meta's of people who just love the format. 

Would the European Metagame dissolve isntantly?

One problem with that system is that it is unfair to those who already own power.  In other words, now the guy who normally proxies Time Vault has to go buy one, and the guy who owns Time Vault and proxies power doesn't have to do anything.  More importantly, Wizards doesn't want to encourage a format that could potentially take away from their money-making formats.  The only way Wizards would go for it would be if there was something printed that we would have to buy from them.  Since reprinting power is not going to happen, printing "official proxies" would be the next best way to go.  Cards that can be used to represent anything, stated at the beginning of the tournament.  Obviously it's a given that they would only be legal in Vintage or Legacy, because otherwise it could potentially damage their sales in more current formats.

It would be an immediate chase rare, enough to make Vintage players buy more product.  Also, since most Standard-legal cards used in Vintage are still cheaper than most other Vintage cards, it shouldn't really change the Vintage player's demand for those newer cards; the "official proxies" would for the most part be sought after to take the place of older stuff that Wizards doesn't print anymore anyway.  I can't see how it would be detrimental to their sales at all.  If anything, if they could get more Vintage players to buy packs, they might increase their Limited/Standard/Block player base!

Seems like a win for everybody.  If it did have any effect on power prices, I truly think it would be very minor.  Moxen are still moxen.  I know it's a very radical concept for Wizards but I imagine most Vintage players would be proponents of this, and it should have absolutely no effect on their other formats.

[Yare]

What would be the worst that could happen if Wizards suddenly (or DCI) put out a "Vintage Proxy Free Pass" list.

The list would contain say, P9, Shops, Bazaar and Mana Drains and those cards only. Those cards people would be allowed to proxy to their heart's content (since they will never be reprinted ever ever ever).

Maybe I'm just blind and my ctrl+f function is broken but I don't see Mana Drain anywhere on the reserved list. They can print off a million sheets of Mana Drains (and Grim Tutors/Imperial Seals which might be actually harder to find than P9 since Portal was essentially colored toilet paper for 8 years) and nobody could complain. I don't own P9 and I still don't think it is a good idea for them to run off reprints of P9 without having some actual data on reprinting old, expensive, busted cards.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

Mana Drain isn't on the Reserve List. It could appear in From the Vault: Exiled.

[Explosion]

Mana Drain isn't on the Reserve List. It could appear in From the Vault: Exiled.

While it is banned in Legacy, and thus possibly fits their so-far-ambiguous criterion for inclusion, I don't know that they're going to include it. Even if they were willing to reprint a $70 card in a $35 (MSRP) set, the real kicker is that Mana Drain is a 4x card. That means an already-rare set might end up getting to less than half the intended buyers. I imagine that the set will include cards that are either one-ofs for Vintage or Cube.

That said, I'd be quite happy if they did include it, at least if I were able to pick up one or more sets at or near retail cost.