Noble Fish: GUW variants here!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Vial also makes things like True Believer a hard counter vs Gifts, Tendrils, and Oath.

I really wouldn't consider true believer a hard counter vs oath, more like an indefinite stifle . Even if true believer appears in multiples oath has been known to play firespout/pyroclasm. Still good, but no hard counter.

[Tha Gunslinga]

True Believer just says "Go find your Key/Vault," which Oath can certainly do.

[Stormanimagus]

All right everyone! Here are some compiled statistics from the past year that I hope you'll:

A) ENJOY!
B) Be able to understand and read.

If it's too small for you to read please tell me and I'll make a new chart or just type out the results:

***NOTE: THE COLUMNS IN GREEN ARE LISTS FROM THE US AND THE COLUMNS IN BLUE ARE EUROPE!***

Results & Card Choices from All 2009-2010 T8 Noble Fish Decklists













Here are the total number of MD Cards used and the names:

96 -->Noble Hierarch
13 -->Cursecatcher
75 -->Qasali Pridemage
68 -->Meddling Mage
64 -->Tarmogoyf
73 -->Cold-Eyed Selkie
42 -->Trygon Predator
10   -->Vendilion Clique
7   -->Aven Mindcensor
8   -->Ninja Of The Deep Hours
2   -->Knight Of The Reliquary
3   -->Kataki, War's Wage
3   -->Gaddock Teeg
2   -->Vexing Shusher
2   -->Elvish Spirit Guide
2   -->Elspeth, Knight-Errant

84 -->Null Rod
2   -->Crucible Of Worlds

96 -->Force Of Will
69 -->Daze
59 -->Stifle
32 -->Spell Pierce
5   -->Swords To Plowshares
17 -->Hurkyl's Recall
3   -->Rebuild
11 -->Mystical Tutor
7   -->Misdirection
11 -->Brainstorm
6   -->Spell Snare
4   -->Negate
2   -->Psionic Blast
2   -->Giant Growth
2   -->Orim's Chant

4   -->Regrowth
5   -->Merchant Scroll

41 -->Misty Rainforest
43 -->Flooded Strand
25 -->Windswept Heath
19 -->Polluted Delta
3   -->Scalding Tarn
74 -->Tropical Island
64 -->Tundra
4   -->Savannah
12 -->Forest
14 -->Island
85 -->Wasteland
24 -->Strip Mine

Here are the SB Numbers as well:

22 -->Trygon Predator
18 -->Tarmogoyf
1   -->Stifle
2   -->Meddling Mage
1   -->Null Rod

61 -->Swords To Plowshares
30 -->Umezawa's Jitte
4   -->Sower Of Temptation
2   -->Tariff
3   -->Path To Exile

31 -->Wheel Of Sun And Moon
8   -->Leyline Of The Void
4   -->Serum Powder
26 -->Relic Of Progenitus
14 -->Tormod's Crypt
17 -->Pithing Needle
12   -->Ravenous Trap
4   -->Propaganda
1   -->Engineered Explosives

9   -->Kataki, War's Wage
8   -->Energy Flux
7   -->Serenity
6   -->Hurkyl's Recall
4   -->Seal Of Primordium
3   -->Krosan Grip
1   -->Oxidize

29 -->Children Of Korlis
2   -->Ethersworn Canonist
4   -->Arcane Laboratory
3   -->Gaddock Teeg
5   -->Aven Mindcensor

1   -->Magus of the Unseen
3   -->Echoing Truth
8   -->Burrenton Forge-Tender
1   -->Tinker
1   -->Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2   -->Enlightened Tutor
2   -->Ray Of Revelation

[Phele]

Gordious! Great work, thanks a lot.

[bisamratte]

5 Swords to Plowshares?

[Stormanimagus]

5 Swords to Plowshares?

That was just for Maindecks. Check out the numbers for Sideboards. They are a lot higher

[LSD25]

amazing work!

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I found it quite interesting that Noble Heirarch is the only card outside of FoW and Strip Mine that were always run to their maximum possible numbers. In any case great work as everyone else said. I especially like how the European and American decks are seperated via color.

[Stormanimagus]

I found it quite interesting that Noble Heirarch is the only card outside of FoW and Strip Mine that were always run to their maximum possible numbers. In any case great work as everyone else said. I especially like how the European and American decks are seperated via color.

Yeah, and there's a lot more Blue as you can see . Well done Europe!

[Nydaeli]

Nice data, Storm.  Here's a (rough) composite list based on it:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
    4 Wasteland
    3 Tundra
    3 Tropical Island
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Island
    1 Forest

// Creatures
    4 Noble Hierarch
    3 Tarmogoyf
    3 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Meddling Mage
    3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
    2 Trygon Predator

// Permanents
    4 Null Rod
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus

// Spells
    4 Force of Will
    3 Stifle
    3 Daze
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Children of Korlis
SB: 1 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tarmogoyf
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Trygon Predator

Looks solid, and not too surprising.

[psyburat]

Is there a specific benchmark you're using to qualify a deck for your data list?  This event had it win but I see it omitted from your data.

[Stormanimagus]

Is there a specific benchmark you're using to qualify a deck for your data list?  This event had it win but I see it omitted from your data.

Hey thanks. I guess that just slipped my analysis. Perhaps it's because it was not the first set of list on that tourney report. It shall be added and I'll update the chart. Again, thanks for helping me be thorough.

-Storm

EDIT: Deck added and number updated! Thanks. If anyone else sees a deck missing please tell me. I have 24 lists posted up there from the last year. I think that about covers everything, but I could be wrong.

BTW. I'm not including a recent tourney that had 16 plays cause I'm trying to bottom my stats out at Tourneys with 20 players. I think that anything lower than that, and the metagame is too random (often allowing a bad list to place because of that randomness). Perhaps that's unfair, but it seems pretty sensible to me.

[Deathknight]

Amazing job you did Storm !
You could also add a French tournament in Paris. Only 26 players but level is very good.
Link to the lists : http://solomoxen.com/forum/index.php?topic=11386.0

[Stormanimagus]

Hey folks. So I'm gonna be heading out to two or three tournaments in the next 2-3 weeks and I want to optimize Noble Fish for my NYC metagame.

What I'm expecting to see a lot of is:

Dredge
Shops (Mostly Stax, but also some Shop Aggro)
Oath
Tezzeret

What I'm not expecting to see much of:

TPS
ANT
Fish
Beats
Goblins

Based on this expectation I expect the following list to do pretty well. I'm gonna be testing Thada Adel in the next couple weeks because I havn't had a chance to truly understand its effectiveness, but it seems like a good MD choice for Fish because it answers some key weaknesses of the Fish strategy: Tinker Targets, Vault-Key, and Wasteland (steal the color of mox you need in order to cast your stuff against Stax or steal Crucible). While it may not have a ton of good targets the ones it does have might be powerful enough to warrant its inclusion (much in the same way that Stifle is playable while only seeming to have a couple "best" targets in Welder & Wasteland). I mean, I suppose Stifle is different and far superior, but I think the analogy holds.

I'd love some feedback on this list as I could definitely see altering by a card or two here and there.


Noble Fish 2010

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (19):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pride-Mage
3 Meddling Mage
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Thada Adel, Acquisitor

Instants (15):
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
3 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Swords To Plowshares
3 Nature's Claim
1 Tarmogoyf

EDIT: I'd also like to know what people think about Jotun Grunt as a supplementary solution to Dredge? Since Dredge decks have evolved to have to answer more artifacts/enchantments from the SB might a creature not be the right choice?

[dawgie]

Fix the SB and you will lose every game. lol

On a more serious note:
I have been thinking of cutting Tarmogoyf completely. Usually I board it out except for shops but I am not thrilled anymore of it being a 2cc vanilla creature. I was thinking of replacing it with Jotun Grunt as main hate against Ichorid but I know it is useless in the early game. The only thing thats is keeping me from removing Goyf is its raw power of being a 4/5 creature on turn 2 .

The only thing that I don't know about Grunt though is if it can contain Ichorid when it has a bunch of cards in the yard.

[Metman]

I have always liked Jotun Grunt and never cared for the vanilla creatures.  I can't justify playing creatures in Vintage that don't do anything but beat.  Jotun Grunt beats, provides narrow disruption, and one overlooked quality is that it beats on Tarmogoyf.  The ability to remove specified targets in the grave to hose Goyf's power/toughness can't be ignored.  The argument that Grunt doesn't do anything to Ichorid when it's graveyard is full is a moot point.  There aren't any creatures that anybody plays in Noble Fish that can do anything about a grave full of dredge.

Stormanimagus: I am really surprised that Grunt is not seeing play at all according to your statistical breakdown.  Anyway, good luck in your tournies.  I'm excited to see the results of Thada Adel's effectiveness in this meta.  I see it as a potential powerhouse against a lot of different decks.  Keep us updated on your findings.

[Deathknight]

It doesn't appear in your stats, but we started playing Jotun in France for two months to test it. Meta is very aggro and full of Selkie. The choice was made to hose Tarmo after sideboarding, enabling to name Tarmo with Mage and to eat the GY. It is also helping against deck base on Ghast, but that is not that relevant.
Against Dredge, Jotun is not that good, but I think that now, Dredge has become clearly the worst MU : its ability to ply 4 CoV or to start dredging as hell after being hated is pretty good. Even Wheel can be too slow, whereas it used to be gamebreaking.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Sideboard
3 Wheel Of Fortune

That's some serious tech.

[turn3ionawin]

so i have been hearing a lot of about playing fish without stifle seems like it potentially could be really good, stifle has been mostly a pitch on a force for me and ive been testing with mana leaks i like it so far but i want opinions the other option would either be spell snares, negates or maybe mana drain.

[scifiantihero]

so i have been hearing a lot of about playing fish without stifle seems like it potentially could be really good, stifle has been mostly a pitch on a force for me and ive been testing with mana leaks i like it so far but i want opinions the other option would either be spell snares, negates or maybe mana drain.

I imagine it depends a lot on your meta, but wasteland for a blue is pretty awesome against some decks.  I have never been comfortable testing without it.  More artifact/enchantment hate might be better against a ton of oaths and shops.

[hultsfret]

Very nice work, Storm. And thx to Nydaeli for building a composite list.

I wonder how you'd build an unpowered composite list based on this data.

Regards.

[DubDub]

Has anyone tested the Natural Order-Progenitus finisher that's seeing play in Legacy?  I've been brewing up the following list:

Qty   ED   Name   Cost   Type   Rarity   Color
      // Lands            
4   ZEN   Misty Rainforest      Land   R   Lnd
2   ON   Flooded Strand      Land   R   Lnd
3   A   Tropical Island      Land - Forest Island   R   Lnd
3   R   Tundra      Land - Plains Island   R   Lnd
1   ALA   Forest      Basic Land - Forest   C   Lnd
1   7E   Island      Basic Land - Island   C   Lnd
4   TE   Wasteland      Land   U   Lnd
1   AQ   Strip Mine      Land   U   Lnd
      //\\            
      // Creatures            
4   CFX   Noble Hierarch   G   Creature - Human Druid   R   G
4   ARB   Qasali Pridemage   GW   Creature - Cat Wizard   C   Gld
4   FUT   Tarmogoyf   1G   Creature - Lhurgoyf   R   G
4   EVE   Cold-Eyed Selkie   1%S%S   Creature - Merfolk Rogue   R   Gld
1  WWK Thada Adel, Acquisitor 1UU Creature - Merfolk Rogue      R     U
1   CFX   Progenitus   WWUUBBRRGG   Legendary Creature - Hydra Avatar   M   Gld
      //\\            
      // Spells            
4   ZEN   Spell Pierce   U   Instant   C   U
2   VI   Natural Order   2GG   Sorcery   R   G
3   WL   Null Rod   2   Artifact   R   Art
1   A   Time Walk   1U   Sorcery   R   U
1   B   Ancestral Recall   U   Instant   R   U
1   A   Black Lotus   0   Artifact   R   Art
3   SC   Stifle   U   Instant   R   U
4   AL   Force of Will   3UU   Instant   U   U
1   U   Mox Pearl   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   A   Mox Emerald   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   B   Mox Sapphire   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   CST   Brainstorm   U   Instant   C   U

[Stormanimagus]

Has anyone tested the Natural Order-Progenitus finisher that's seeing play in Legacy?  I've been brewing up the following list:

Qty   ED   Name   Cost   Type   Rarity   Color
      // Lands            
4   ZEN   Misty Rainforest      Land   R   Lnd
2   ON   Flooded Strand      Land   R   Lnd
3   A   Tropical Island      Land - Forest Island   R   Lnd
3   R   Tundra      Land - Plains Island   R   Lnd
1   ALA   Forest      Basic Land - Forest   C   Lnd
1   7E   Island      Basic Land - Island   C   Lnd
4   TE   Wasteland      Land   U   Lnd
1   AQ   Strip Mine      Land   U   Lnd
      //\\            
      // Creatures            
4   CFX   Noble Hierarch   G   Creature - Human Druid   R   G
4   ARB   Qasali Pridemage   GW   Creature - Cat Wizard   C   Gld
4   FUT   Tarmogoyf   1G   Creature - Lhurgoyf   R   G
4   EVE   Cold-Eyed Selkie   1%S%S   Creature - Merfolk Rogue   R   Gld
1  WWK Thada Adel, Acquisitor 1UU Creature - Merfolk Rogue      R     U
1   CFX   Progenitus   WWUUBBRRGG   Legendary Creature - Hydra Avatar   M   Gld
      //\\            
      // Spells            
4   ZEN   Spell Pierce   U   Instant   C   U
2   VI   Natural Order   2GG   Sorcery   R   G
3   WL   Null Rod   2   Artifact   R   Art
1   A   Time Walk   1U   Sorcery   R   U
1   B   Ancestral Recall   U   Instant   R   U
1   A   Black Lotus   0   Artifact   R   Art
3   SC   Stifle   U   Instant   R   U
4   AL   Force of Will   3UU   Instant   U   U
1   U   Mox Pearl   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   A   Mox Emerald   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   B   Mox Sapphire   0   Artifact   R   Art
1   CST   Brainstorm   U   Instant   C   U

Natural Order is certainly an innovative idea and one I'd like to give a whirl, but I do have some concerns.

1.) Progenitus is actually a more narrow creature kill than many because it can be raced by Sphinx (and can't block the Sphinx), and it still gives the opponent a turn to win first (Vault/Key or Storm both work here). It is the nuts against other fish, but you should already be winning that battle with 4x Goyf + 8 Exalted.

2). 2GG. That's a lot of mana to spend on a win Con without much mana accel in the deck. I'd certainly try to find room for a lotus Petal at least if you're going to go that route, but I'm just not sure that 2GG is feasible in a metagame full of Lodestone.dec.

Anyway, I'd love to hear how testing goes with the card because it seems like an interesting idea.

Have you also considered the Show and Tell Route? Might be interesting.

-Storm

[DubDub]

Natural Order is certainly an innovative idea and one I'd like to give a whirl, but I do have some concerns.

1.) Progenitus is actually a more narrow creature kill than many because it can be raced by Sphinx (and can't block the Sphinx), and it still gives the opponent a turn to win first (Vault/Key or Storm both work here). It is the nuts against other fish, but you should already be winning that battle with 4x Goyf + 8 Exalted.

2). 2GG. That's a lot of mana to spend on a win Con without much mana accel in the deck. I'd certainly try to find room for a lotus Petal at least if you're going to go that route, but I'm just not sure that 2GG is feasible in a metagame full of Lodestone.dec.

Anyway, I'd love to hear how testing goes with the card because it seems like an interesting idea.

Have you also considered the Show and Tell Route? Might be interesting.

-Storm

1) Progenitus does seem like the best option available, I don't think Terastadon is very good here.  Hellkite Overlord suffers due to Sphinx same as Progenitus (worse, since it can be blocked), and HKO's Haste is wasted somewhat since you'll attack with an exalted Goyf/Selkie, then NO in second main.  You're right that NO may be better suited once the robot of choice reverts to Inkwell (as opposed to Sphinx) should it due so.

2) That was something I took into consideration.  This list (in comparison to the gestalt one above) has one more fetchland, one more Wasteland, and won't set it's own tempo back with Daze.  Also, every creature in the deck is green except for the sinlgeton Thada, as I've taken out MM entirely.

[mirrislegend]

Hey all. I'm new to vintage and felt that this was the easiest deck to build. Here's the list I'm planning on running, as well as my specific concerns:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Meddling Mage
2 Trygon Predator

3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

3 Swords to Plowshares

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Null Rod

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Savannah

SB:
2 Kataki
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
1 Ravenous Trap
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Concerns/questions:
- Fit in one basic Island? Maybe in the place of the Savannah
- Should there be more draw/draw fixing? Like Brainstorm, Ponder, Gush (which are restricted, not banned, right?)
- Should Aven Mindcensor be in the SB?
- How's my # Kataki's vs # Hurkyl's in the board?
- Enough GY hate in the SB?
- Is there something I'm clearly forgetting to SB against? (Maybe Tezz.dec)

[JCrawl]

Has anyone ever tried Hidden Guerrillas in the Sideboard against Mud and/or Stax?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Has anyone tested Cursecatchers main against Dredge?  Remember that you rob them of both zombie tokens and bridges in response to any of their major sac outlets *plus* you counter the sac outlet if they actually run it out there.

[Stormanimagus]

Has anyone tested Cursecatchers main against Dredge?  Remember that you rob them of both zombie tokens and bridges in response to any of their major sac outlets *plus* you counter the sac outlet if they actually run it out there.

My first build ever ran 3 MD. They were only OK againt dredge and required supplementing, but I'd consider then again. Not sure if they're doin' much for you against MUD though and now MUD is pretty prevalent on the East Coast at least.

-Storm

[Stormanimagus]

Hey all,

just thought I'd post an updated list that can perhaps address the current Meta decently (though I will not be piloting it any time soon), but first I'd like to offer up explanation as to why I do not currently pilot this deck and why I don't think you, the reader, should either. Let me outline it:

1. Leyline Of Sanctity. Dredge now has a free answer to our Crypts and Traps and that's basically all we have to RFG a yard. Needle is not a great Answer and Relic can often be too slow. I'm not sure if Wheel Of Sun and Moon technically TARGETS, but I think it does so I dunno. Leyline Of Sanctity can be beaten, but it worsens an already tough match-up in a bad way for us.

2. MUD. Lodestone is here to stay. The 5/3's impact on Vintage is making waves and it wreaks havoc on the little Fish. Sure, I've beaten MUD before, but my deck ran 4 STP and 4 Nature's Claim in the SB AND 3 Energy Flux AND 4 Trygon Predator. Even with that setup I was 1-1 against MUD on the day. Simply put, if you lose the die roll you often lose the match. It is a super hard match-up to break in your favor consistently and good pilots know how to beat you.

3. Resurgence of TPS and adaptation of Oath. The fact that these two decks exist in larger numbers is a huuuuuge reason why the Noble Hierarchs won't be seeing much play soon. Noble Fish used to have a great Oath match-up. Then Show and Tell was discovered as Tech. Fish responded with more countermagic and tech. Then Jace came along to stick the nail in the coffin. Jace pwns Fish, simple as that. TPS also runs Repeals now often and has ALWAYS been a problem for Fish.

4. The deck is underpowered, but far more respected by the field so it's lost some of its fringe luster. It's considered more mainstream now and so it's hard to pull the wool over any opponent's eyes on anything. Part of the strength of Fish in general is that opponents get stumped on the relative power of a 4-of or 2 in your deck and then misplay against the card. I saw this often as an early Noble Fish pilot where players would kill Goyf instead of Selkie as the combo pilot and it was usually a mistake as the Selkie just drew me into the gas I needed to retain my lead. Players do not make these mistakes anymore and EVERY card in the deck is pretty well known for its power and effect.

Ok, so here's my best list for what it's worth. It is a dark time for the Noble Hierarchs :*-(

Noble Fish

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (22):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Trygon Predator

Instants (12):
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
4 Path To Exile
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Leyline Of Sanctity
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Relic Of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
3 Nature’s Claim

The things I am not certain about are the 4 Path. I think that the life-gain from STP might actually matter against MUD as you need to try to race them before they can recover and Path is clearly better there. STP might be better against Tezz, but even there it can be a race and them gaining 2 life from Confidant might be just enough to get them out of trouble. STP IS probably better there, but with out the 3-4 Stifle Mana denial package and with the fact that SOOOO many blue decks run multiple basics anyway I don't think we should be worrying too much about giving our opponent more mana. Path may prove to be wrong, but I'd take it for a spin first.

Anyway, there's my current list. Nothing special or particularly new. Leyline Of Sanctity out of the SB could really be a house against TPS and Oath when backed up by Daze and FoW. I'm actually pretty excited about this Leyline.

To sum up and wrap up. Fish is a fringe player right now. If R & D gave us a new tool to combat Dredge or MUD better then more space in the design could be dedicated to Tezz & TPS and we might actually stand a fighting chance in the shifting meta. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Scars Of Mirrodin !

-Storm

[bosoxdave]

It seems counter intuitive to me to run Wastelands and a Strip Mine and to play Path to Exile as a 4 of.