With Tezzeret dominating, what would it be safe to unrestrict?

[jamestosetti]

That's an interesting post that was just made. In the current metagame unrestricting balance seems fun. That is completely crazy but so is 4 spheres and and 4 tezzerets.Tezzeret shapes the metagame so bad it only takes 2 to do it.  Tps was owning so they made tezzeret to combat the metagame top 8 thing and to bring back time vault. Two birds with 1 stone. The way to fix the problem is to see why a deck owns. Tps was a great top 8 maker because workshop was great against other decks and pretty good against tps but tps was better at beating the other decks than workshop most of the time. Then you look at what card makes that possible. It is definitely sphere of resistance.Call me stupid but I know I'm right.Restrict sphere and If wizards makes some new deck forming cards well have a great metagame. Ok my rant is done wether I'm right or wrong.

[TK]

I'm not sure why you think sphere of resistance is some kind of problem. I don't think Ive actually heard anyone call for its restriction ever or at east in my time. If sphere is such a problem why don"t you add thorn of amethyst to your list of what should also get restricted.

Sphere in my opinion is a card that helps keep the format somewhat stable. sphere has been used by stax and a variety of other decks to combat combo. sphere along with chalice and null rod are some of the only really good tools non blue decks have against combo with sphere being the best option.

With sphere out of the meta there would be less diversity and combo would be much stronger. combo even now has been doing fine against the tezz decks its not the best match up but rituals have always been pretty good against drains.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

That's an interesting post that was just made. In the current metagame unrestricting balance seems fun. That is completely crazy but so is 4 spheres and and 4 tezzerets.Tezzeret shapes the metagame so bad it only takes 2 to do it.  Tps was owning so they made tezzeret to combat the metagame top 8 thing and to bring back time vault. Two birds with 1 stone. The way to fix the problem is to see why a deck owns. Tps was a great top 8 maker because workshop was great against other decks and pretty good against tps but tps was better at beating the other decks than workshop most of the time. Then you look at what card makes that possible. It is definitely sphere of resistance.Call me stupid but I know I'm right.Restrict sphere and If wizards makes some new deck forming cards well have a great metagame. Ok my rant is done wether I'm right or wrong.

How is tez broken without key/vault?

[Purple Hat]

I'm not sure why you think sphere of resistance is some kind of problem. I don't think Ive actually heard anyone call for its restriction ever or at east in my time. If sphere is such a problem why don"t you add thorn of amethyst to your list of what should also get restricted.

Sphere in my opinion is a card that helps keep the format somewhat stable. sphere has been used by stax and a variety of other decks to combat combo. sphere along with chalice and null rod are some of the only really good tools non blue decks have against combo with sphere being the best option.

With sphere out of the meta there would be less diversity and combo would be much stronger. combo even now has been doing fine against the tezz decks its not the best match up but rituals have always been pretty good against drains.

Most true combo decks should have a good drain matchup.  I was playing dragon against tez for about 4 hours today and it really came out at worst even.  The natural predators of drains just aren't getting played these days.  If they were people would be beating Tezz

[LordHomerCat]

I'm not sure why you think sphere of resistance is some kind of problem. I don't think Ive actually heard anyone call for its restriction ever or at east in my time. If sphere is such a problem why don"t you add thorn of amethyst to your list of what should also get restricted.

Sphere in my opinion is a card that helps keep the format somewhat stable. sphere has been used by stax and a variety of other decks to combat combo. sphere along with chalice and null rod are some of the only really good tools non blue decks have against combo with sphere being the best option.

With sphere out of the meta there would be less diversity and combo would be much stronger. combo even now has been doing fine against the tezz decks its not the best match up but rituals have always been pretty good against drains.

Most true combo decks should have a good drain matchup.  I was playing dragon against tez for about 4 hours today and it really came out at worst even.  The natural predators of drains just aren't getting played these days.  If they were people would be beating Tezz

See, the thing is that even the "natural predators" of Tezzeret are only 50/50 against it most of the time.  There are decks that are better, like BUG Fish, but those decks really can't beat anything else.  I mean, have you ever played a Cursecatcher against Shops or Oath or other Fish?  There are very few decks that consistently beat Tez and those decks rarely are able to beat much of anything else barring a major playskill disparity in favor of the hate deck pilot.

Like, Dragon is not only difficult to play and board correctly, but if you aren't an expert it can have a ton of trouble with a lot of incidental hate cards.  Honestly, the only decks I would even consider right now are Tezz, TPS, and Ichorid.  Those decks all can beat each other, and are the only ones with a solid enough matchup across the board that they aren't just super-narrow hate decks (BUG Fish much?).  Nothing else seems to have the raw power to compete.  4 Balance would be interesting; I'm against it on principle because of how ridiculous the card is, but in the back of my mind it does seem like something somewhat appealing.

Also, to the guy ranting about Sphere, I don't even understand what you are trying to say.  Barely anyone is even playing Shops right now, so why would we want to weaken it?  And most Tez decks are running 1 or 2 Tez, no one runs more than 2.  Restricting it would do approximately nothing.  Seriously, everyone has probably been 'ignoring your posts' because like me, they don't have any idea what you are even saying.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I'm not sure why you think sphere of resistance is some kind of problem. I don't think Ive actually heard anyone call for its restriction ever or at east in my time. If sphere is such a problem why don"t you add thorn of amethyst to your list of what should also get restricted.

Sphere in my opinion is a card that helps keep the format somewhat stable. sphere has been used by stax and a variety of other decks to combat combo. sphere along with chalice and null rod are some of the only really good tools non blue decks have against combo with sphere being the best option.

With sphere out of the meta there would be less diversity and combo would be much stronger. combo even now has been doing fine against the tezz decks its not the best match up but rituals have always been pretty good against drains.

Most true combo decks should have a good drain matchup.  I was playing dragon against tez for about 4 hours today and it really came out at worst even.  The natural predators of drains just aren't getting played these days.  If they were people would be beating Tezz

See, the thing is that even the "natural predators" of Tezzeret are only 50/50 against it most of the time.  There are decks that are better, like BUG Fish, but those decks really can't beat anything else.  I mean, have you ever played a Cursecatcher against Shops or Oath or other Fish?  There are very few decks that consistently beat Tez and those decks rarely are able to beat much of anything else barring a major playskill disparity in favor of the hate deck pilot.

Like, Dragon is not only difficult to play and board correctly, but if you aren't an expert it can have a ton of trouble with a lot of incidental hate cards.  Honestly, the only decks I would even consider right now are Tezz, TPS, and Ichorid.  Those decks all can beat each other, and are the only ones with a solid enough matchup across the board that they aren't just super-narrow hate decks (BUG Fish much?).  Nothing else seems to have the raw power to compete.  4 Balance would be interesting; I'm against it on principle because of how ridiculous the card is, but in the back of my mind it does seem like something somewhat appealing.

Also, to the guy ranting about Sphere, I don't even understand what you are trying to say.  Barely anyone is even playing Shops right now, so why would we want to weaken it?  And most Tez decks are running 1 or 2 Tez, no one runs more than 2.  Restricting it would do approximately nothing.  Seriously, everyone has probably been 'ignoring your posts' because like me, they don't have any idea what you are even saying.

I've been saying that key/vault is the most broken 2-card interaction that I think has ever been printed. (If this was directed at me I haven't said anything about spheres though so idk ) Its more broken than Will and everyone has been saying for years that it should be banned. I don't see how Will is better than a hate resistant, easy to set up, 2-card, 4 colorless mana: win the game combo.

Edit: Not to mention if vault gets banned then it becomes safer to take off cards like FoF/Gifts from the restricted list and tezz becomes a non-existant deck. The only reason Tezzeret is broken is because it wins the game on the spot for 4 mana. I mean would the actual planeswalker even be run if it weren't for this combo? My guess is no, because then it would just be a mana creator. Nothing else will stop drains and considering the only 2 decks you think can even 50/50 compare without being pure hate are turn 2.5 goldfish decks that should say something about the metagame and combo.

[jamestosetti]

Homer if they were ignoring me then why have most of the latest posts been about my posts? You don't know what I'm saying?Then why did you address everything I wrote? You have team meandeck on your profile so I assume you play magic for financial gain. That said I cannot take what you say seriously because you try to influence people to see it your way to get what you want so you can play the deck you want in the metagame you want. If sphere is restricted people can use thorn which promotes the use of creatures in a format that does not use alot of creatures.Is this jibberish or am i still dumb? And like I said about playing for money. You could not own people consistently with 1 Tezz therefore it might hurt a persons wallet. Mayby this is not you but maybe  I am correct in what I've said. Sphere is the problem because decks that need to be able to put stuff out cant in time because of so many add ones. This shapes the metagame. If there was no sphere there would be other decks using different cards to combat combo or win even faster. It all depends on what is printed. Do you have any questions? Do you have anything else to say to me or would you like to share some ideas of your own?

[TK]

Homer if they were ignoring me then why have most of the latest posts been about my posts? You don't know what I'm saying?Then why did you address everything I wrote? You have team meandeck on your profile so I assume you play magic for financial gain. That said I cannot take what you say seriously because you try to influence people to see it your way to get what you want so you can play the deck you want in the metagame you want. If sphere is restricted people can use thorn which promotes the use of creatures in a format that does not use alot of creatures.Is this jibberish or am i still dumb? And like I said about playing for money. You could not own people consistently with 1 Tezz therefore it might hurt a persons wallet. Mayby this is not you but maybe  I am correct in what I've said. Sphere is the problem because decks that need to be able to put stuff out cant in time because of so many add ones. This shapes the metagame. If there was no sphere there would be other decks using different cards to combat combo or win even faster. It all depends on what is printed. Do you have any questions? Do you have anything else to say to me or would you like to share some ideas of your own?

What Planet do you live on?

If  anything sphere by itself without thorn does promote the playing of creatures. I don't know if you have ever played stax (which is usually and sphere based deck) but seeing tarmogoyfs and dark confidants are really not good, God forbid you see a turn one goblin lackey.

Being able to play one Tezz would actually just change nothing, sure majority of the lists play 2 but there are a lot that only play one as well. Tezz is actually the weakest card (as far a being susceptible to hate) in the combo series with vault and key.

I have no idea where you are going with this financial gain issue. I would say the majority of people that play vintage play because they enjoy it. sure you can have some financial gain but in the long run winning a mox hear and there is little to no reason to play for only profit.

So yeah you are still just speaking gibberish and the second part of that sentence is most certainly true as well.

[jamestosetti]

I think where we all differ can be compared to playing chess with 8 rooks or 7 knights or playing it the way it is currently played. I think what some of you people say sometimes is completly obsured but I dont say anything unless you start directing stuff towards me. Im glad that you like sphere of resistance.I really like those decks myself but I'm talking about why things make top 8 in certain numbers not about how much I love sphere of resistance.I really don't care if what I say to you hurts your feelings either. I'm sure you are the same. If you don't like my ideas just say why or thats no good and mayby I'll reconsider my idea or think of a new one . If people start making it personal then it will get personal. Thats not what I want but its the it goes sometimes. I don't feel the need to call anyone stupid for there idea even if it may be.

     Here is something else. If mana drain was restricted or if sphere was restricted or if Tezzeret was restricted there would be  different effects in the metagame over time.I would like to see the effect of 1 sphere in a deck over time. If you do not mayby you are right and your idea is better. But I prefer my idea right now.

[LordHomerCat]

Being able to play one Tezz would actually just change nothing, sure majority of the lists play 2 but there are a lot that only play one as well. Tezz is actually the weakest card (as far a being susceptible to hate) in the combo series with vault and key.

100% True.  Tezzeret is the worst card in the deck.  

Also, I definitely don't play Vintage to get rich.  No one does, it just isn't possible.  I like winning, yes, and I like being able to make some money to pay for travel expenses, but I don't see what team affiliation has to do with my interest in the welfare of the format.

The deck I want to play in the metagame I want is GAT with all the blue cards.  I supported some B&R action there because it was good for the format in general.  My main interest here is keeping vintage interesting and exciting so that people will continue to play and I will have tournaments to attend and enjoy.  You could restrict or unrestrict any card on the list if it would mean better attendance and more events and I would happily keep playing.  I really don't know where you are coming up with all these ridiculous claims.

Restricting Tezzeret would literally have zero effect on the metagame.  ZERO.  I would finally get to cut my second one for a better card, which I've wanted to do for months but haven't found a replacement yet.  Everyone else would do the same, and life would go on exactly as before.  Restricting sphere would be pointless.  There is an average of maybe 10% shop decks and most events I attend.  Kill sphere and that number would go down even further.  Why would you want to kick the weakest 'pillar' of the metagame when it is already hurting?

[jamestosetti]

        I feel the same way as you on vintage but the way I go about thinking of how to make these things happen are probably not the same as yours. Ok so you all think sphere is better for the metagame.I will try to think of some cards that could be printed to make the format better. I really don't want to try to butt heads with anyone here. I am just as enthusiastic about type 1 as anyone else but my problem is I don't have anyone to play physical type 1 with regularly so I think about this stuff on my own. I'll have to run my ideas by some people before I say them. And anyone reading I'm sure Homer cat doesn't play type 1 for money but for fun.

[nineisnoone]

4 Balance would be interesting; I'm against it on principle because of how ridiculous the card is, but in the back of my mind it does seem like something somewhat appealing.

A point I want to make about Balance to make it more appealing.

Balance is inherently slow.  The fact that it is 2 mana is basically irrelevant in terms of speed.  The 2 mana just means that it is playable, not that it is particularly fast. 

Barring something like Fastbond, you need to give your opponent a turn for each land you destroy.  Presuming that +2 CA (i.e. Ancestral Recall) is the threshold of brokenness, you would need to give your opponent 2 turns to get that.  Assuming, of course, you don't play any lands at all. 

Even when it comes to the discard effect, it is realistically quite slow.  A Balance deck is not going to be, Mox, Land, Balance, Go.  What would be the point?  Realistically, Balance will not come out turn 1 or even turn 2 for its hand destruction effect.  Possibly it could go turn 2 on the draw when you got a Mox to hit a land and force some discard.  However, on the draw means that you inherently have CA so it's a bit of a trade off.  To really optimize the card, you need to be able to play all of your cards, which takes turns, for the greatest effect.  Assuming, of course, that your opponent can't play out all their card before you. 

None of this is saying that it won't be playable, but Balance looks its best only in really really bad situations.  It is the only card that can save you when you have absolutely nothing against an opponent with everything.  But those situations are rare and realistically speaking if they have been given that time to develop their hand and board, they have no excuse to lose to the card.

[jamestosetti]

What is the verdict on 4 brainstorms now that vault combo is in the metagame?

[OwenTheEnchanter]

I'll have to run my ideas by some people before I say them.

[Malkizid]

I think what Owen meant to say, was that giving 4 Brainstorms to Time Vault Combo, would make Vault more of a problem, not less.  Jamestosetti, where are you from?  Italy?  I think there is a healthy Vintage scene in Italy.  You should try and find some Vintage players, so you can get to know the format.  I know it can be hard to grasp when you can't actually cast the spells against anyone.

[M.Solymossy]

This might be my longest, and most thought out response to any thread on TMD ever...  and it's full of quotes.  ENJOY!

Some people disliked the Trinisphere, some people disliked the Flash. Just the disliking of those cards led to their restricting, even without numerical proof. Mana Drain is dominating and the numbers are there. I don't know what else a card needs to be restricted.

Did you even play in the 4 Trinisphere metagame?  Chimpanzees snorting Crack Cocaine could play decks like the Man plan. 

Step 1:  Play Trinisphere.
Step 2:  Play Juggernaut.
Step 3:  Play Strip Effects.
Step 4:  Repeat next game.

Trinisphere was restricted without numerical proof?   

I was going to list EVERY SINGLE tournament win decks with Trinisphere had, but it was long and tedious, so I decided to just link you to Morphling.de

http://www.morphling.de/search.php?type=3&restr=before&app=40&y=2005&sorting=ASC&m=12&format=0&d=31&search=Trinisphere&sent=1&advanced=1

All the top8s from the end of 2005 and before, where Trinisphere was played in a deck, listed right there for you.

With Drains, you have the best protection, acceleration, card draw and win condition in Vintage.

 

This statement is very off base.  This is simply NOT true.  Mana Drain is not the best protection (it is not free without much drawback, AKA Force of will) it is not the best acceleration, simply because you NEED to use the mana on your next mainphase...   And since when has Mana Drain been Card Draw?  Man, I need to get someone to read my italian ones I own... oh wait, mine are english....  Card draw?  Nope... did they errata that?  Guess not... try again...   And ask ELD how good Mana Drain is as a win conition. 

I don't know if people are reading my posts since they seem to be ignored but how is Will better? 

DO YOU PLAY THIS FORMAT?!?!?!?!  You cannot say ANYTHING is better than Yawgmoth's Freaking Will.   There is a reason people call it Yawgmoth's Win. Owen, Jimmy McCarthy and I had this discussion about how if your deck doesn't play Yawmoth's Willenium, or your deck isn't designed to beat yawgmoth's will (Null rod/chalice/sphere), your deck is made wrong.  I still concur whole-heartedly with that statement.  Your comment about tossing it into a fish deck is wrong too, because I've done it, and I still recall when players would play Yawgmoth's Will in Stax, too.   You're NEVER "splashing black" for Yawgmoth's Will, you're simply playing YAWGMOTHS FREAKING WILL.

 

The only hate most decks can run against it is Pithing Needle and Null Rod, niether of which stop actually casting the card and niether of which are immune to bounce->win.

I don't really know which format you're wanting to play, but in this game we play called Magic (Colon) The Gathering, there arn't many strategies that are foolproof.  I'm sure you'd want a Null Rod that costs 2, is untargetable, indestructable, and makes you untargetable, so that NO bounce or artifact removal can ever remove it, but this game actually is balanced.

locally banned

I will stop this by saying Never.  it will NEVER happen.  We follow the DCI.  Don't like it?  Play 5-color.  Here:  www.5-color.com

  Drain decks were never this dominant before and the only thing that has changed since Gifts was the bombshell deck is that aggro decks got better tools and drain got a combo that laughs at those tools.

Maybe we wouldn't ignore your posts if you knew a little bit about what you were talking about.   Mana Drains have been dominating since [size=fucking huge] 1996[/size]. 

Let me introduce you to The Deck, created by Brian Weissman:


Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Plains
3 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
2 Disrupting Scepter
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Mirror Universe
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Creatures
2 Serra Angel   

Enchantments
2 Moat

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Counterspell
4 Mana Drain
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Disenchant
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Amnesia
1 Braingeyser
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Recall
1 Regrowth   

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Dust to Dust
1 Zuran Orb
1 Balance
2 Blood Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Mana Short
1 Amnesia
1 Feldon's Cane


BBS (Blue Bull Sh!t) was also a staple in vintage.   And then UR Phid.  Slaver.   Gifts.   Drain Tendrils.   Drain this, Drain that.   It's how magic works.

Just remember tezz doesn't win the game when he resolves without vault/key.

I once had my Time Vault Extirpated.  My 5 Artifacts sure did like smashing face, though.

I think Tezzeret should be resticted as well as sphere of resistance.

This is LAUGHABLE.  I play 1 Tezzeret.  And I have top8ed, top4ed, and won with the deck.    And Sphere of Resistance, are you F***ing serious?   [facepalm].

Next poster, please.

What would be so wrong about a format where the #1 card was Balance? 

Um... how about the #1 card being balance in the format?  Have you played against the card?  It's just STUPID unfair in the right decks.    Stax would automatically play 4.  They might even go to monowhite stax, just to play 4 of that card.   Have fun touching that.  They will blow you out every time.   I once watched a stax player MULLIGAN to THREE.  Know what he did?   Sapphire, Pearl, Balance.   Yeah.  How fair.

Tps was a great top 8 maker because workshop was great against other decks and pretty good against tps but tps was better at beating the other decks than workshop most of the time. Then you look at what card makes that possible. It is definitely sphere of resistance.Call me stupid but I know I'm right.Restrict sphere and If wizards makes some new deck forming cards well have a great metagame.

YOU AGAIN?!?!?!    Come on guy.       Do you PLAY this format, or even MAGIC?!   TPS was played @ the 2008 Champs because the best TPS players would beat Mana Drain players ANY day of the week.  The matchup is so in the TPS players favor, that they barely sideboarded for it.   Take for example, my worlds experience.  Playing Mana Drain, I beat THREE TPS players.  Then I got to the top8, and played TOMMY KOLOWITH.   I seriously got to cast a Mox, a Mana Drain (which got Force of Will'ed) and a thoughtseize (which got misdirected).  Then I sat there and died... and my Drain deck was REALLY prepaired for TPS...  3 Duress maindeck and 3 more in the board, ontop of 4 Drains and 4 Forces.    Oh, and did I mention that TPS was originally built to BEAT Shop decks?  TPS LAUGHS at Sphere of Resistance. 

Most true combo decks should have a good drain matchup.  I was playing dragon against tez for about 4 hours today and it really came out at worst even.  The natural predators of drains just aren't getting played these days.  If they were people would be beating Tezz

Finally someone worth quoteing that I don't need to tear into!  I 100% Agree.  TK's stax deck is MURDER for Tezzeret.  BUG fish is MURDER for Tezzeret.  Dragon can be Murder for Tezzeret when played right.  TPS is MURDER for Tezzeret.  The deck CAN BE BEATEN... nobody seems to want to beat it, though.

the stuff he said

 

I agree again.   TPS, Tezzeret, and ichorid are great decks to play.  I could see URBANA making a comeback, honestly, at this rate.  Stifle-Naught has a fine matchup if people would get off their Illusionary Mask, and play Null Rod.   Stax, again, is a beating for Tezzeret if you play it well enough.

You have team meandeck on your profile so I assume you play magic for financial gain. That said I cannot take what you say seriously because you try to influence people to see it your way to get what you want so you can play the deck you want in the metagame you want.And like I said about playing for money.

Wow.  I'm on GWS.  Gunna attack me for playing for "financial gain"? I definitely do not, as I've spent much more to play than I have won.  You're absolutely ridiculous.  Go bother other people with this crap, because We definitely don't need it here. 

  Am I still dumb?

At least you realized it, champion. [/s]

I think what Owen meant to say...

I think what Owen meant to say was that this guy really needs to run his ideas through some people who comprehend basic logic and understanding of this game before he posts on a respected site like the Mana Drain. 


NOW MY OWN THOUGHTS!

I think this whole discussion is ridiculous.   Key/Vault is just like every other win condition in vintage.  Is it degenerate?  Yes.  Is vintage degenerate?  Yes.    The fact that the best players are playing tezzeret has a lot to do with the success of tezzeret.  Again, I must state my belief that if you can't beat the Tezzeret deck, maybe you need to spend more time looking into what you can do to beat it, rather than what the DCI can do to help you out.

Your thoroughness is commendable, but your tone was lacking in several places.  Verbal warning for Flaming.  -DA

[BruiZar]

@M.Solymossy

Thanks for addressing some facts in a thread so full of opinions. I especially agree on your comment on Null Rod/Mask. If you're getting hosed so badly by Tezz, why the f*k aren't you playing decent hate like Null Rods.

[Marske]

@M.Solymossy,
I was trying to stay clear of this thread but your post got me to post my final post in here..I just really think your post voices what I was trying to say earlier on in this thread. Tezzeret CAN be easily beat and there is nothing to be worried about lets just wait and see where this settles.

@BruiZar,
Ichorid, Null rod decks, TPS, ANT are all perfectly viable and fun decks to play in a Drain meta and if played right can be a real beating for Tezzeret decks.

[LordHomerCat]

@M.Solymossy,
I was trying to stay clear of this thread but your post got me to post my final post in here..I just really think your post voices what I was trying to say earlier on in this thread. Tezzeret CAN be easily beat and there is nothing to be worried about lets just wait and see where this settles.

@BruiZar,
Ichorid, Null rod decks, TPS, ANT are all perfectly viable and fun decks to play in a Drain meta and if played right can be a real beating for Tezzeret decks.

TPS is not a beating for Tezzeret.  It's a hard matchup for sure, and it is no better than 50/50 from the Tez side, but it is also not much worse.  I've played against a lot of TPS with Tezzeret and against the best TPS players in the country, and there is no way it is a worse match than BUG fish.  TPS is good against everything else too though, which BUG Fish is not.  Don't expect to pick up TPS and just plow through drains like nothing though.

[Bongo]

Did you even play in the 4 Trinisphere metagame?  Chimpanzees snorting Crack Cocaine could play decks like the Man plan. 

Step 1:  Play Trinisphere.
Step 2:  Play Juggernaut.
Step 3:  Play Strip Effects.
Step 4:  Repeat next game.

Trinisphere was restricted without numerical proof?   

I was going to list EVERY SINGLE tournament win decks with Trinisphere had, but it was long and tedious, so I decided to just link you to Morphling.de

http://www.morphling.de/search.php?type=3&restr=before&app=40&y=2005&sorting=ASC&m=12&format=0&d=31&search=Trinisphere&sent=1&advanced=1

All the top8s from the end of 2005 and before, where Trinisphere was played in a deck, listed right there for you.

With Drains, you have the best protection, acceleration, card draw and win condition in Vintage.

 

This statement is very off base.  This is simply NOT true.  Mana Drain is not the best protection (it is not free without much drawback, AKA Force of will) it is not the best acceleration, simply because you NEED to use the mana on your next mainphase...   And since when has Mana Drain been Card Draw?  Man, I need to get someone to read my italian ones I own... oh wait, mine are english....  Card draw?  Nope... did they errata that?  Guess not... try again...   And ask ELD how good Mana Drain is as a win conition. 

Yes, I played during the 4 Trinisphere era. And it was less played than Mana Drain and still got restricted. The list you gave also shows that many decks didn't even play Trinisphere mainboard, but included them in the SB. List every deck with Mana Drain in it, and you see that the list will be a lot longer. And you won't have Drains in the SB.


What I meant in your second quote was Drain DECKS. You have Mana Drain, Force of Will and Duress as protection, acceleration from Moxen and Drain mana, card draw from Thirst/IntuAK, Recall, Fact (powered by Drains) and the best win condition in VaultKey (which you can also conveniently Drain into). Even decks that "hate" Tezzeret like Painter and RemoraMeditate use Drains, simply because it's so good.

[Nehptis]

Finally, some posts are showing up about the abomination that is Vault/Key.  That is what is central to the arguement.  Remove that combo from the game, let the meta settle again and then possibly look to unrestrictions to balance out Drain strategies.

Did you even play in the 4 Trinisphere metagame?  Chimpanzees snorting Crack Cocaine could play decks like the Man plan.

Key/Vault is just like every other win condition in vintage.  Is it degenerate?  Yes. Again, I must state my belief that if you can't beat the Tezzeret deck, maybe you need to spend more time looking into what you can do to beat it, rather than what the DCI can do to help you out.

Even though I agree 100% on 3Sphere being Restricted your arguement is contradictory.  If you disliked the 4 x 3Sphere meta then why weren't you on a crusade to "spend more time looking into what you can do to beat it, rather than what the DCI can do to help you out?"

When Vintage degenerates itself into a state like we are in now then the DCI mixes things up again.  They may make the situation worse or better.  There are too many factors for them to know how their actions will ultimately resolve.  But, I think no action, especially in regards to Vault/Key is far worse than simply trying something.  (This is starting to feel like the same arguement one could use for the USA Bail Out plan!)

[arctic79]

Wow.  There are a good many posts here and maybe 25% valid.  
We all need to hope the DCI does what is best for the health of the format.  Unfortunately all these posts mean Jack Shit to the DCI.  I think the best bet for the Vintage community would be an agreed upon listing of B&R cards developed by the Adepts of the community and then signed by everyone on the forums and sent to the DCI.  Until then we have to take whatever medicine the DCI gives us whether or not we like it.

[nineisnoone]

What would be so wrong about a format where the #1 card was Balance? 

Um... how about the #1 card being balance in the format?  Have you played against the card?  It's just STUPID unfair in the right decks. Stax would automatically play 4. They might even go to monowhite stax, just to play 4 of that card.   Have fun touching that.  They will blow you out every time.   I once watched a stax player MULLIGAN to THREE.  Know what he did?  Sapphire, Pearl, Balance. Yeah. How fair.

I think this whole discussion is ridiculous.   Key/Vault is just like every other win condition in vintage.  Is it degenerate?  Yes.  Is vintage degenerate?  Yes.    The fact that the best players are playing tezzeret has a lot to do with the success of tezzeret.  Again, I must state my belief that if you can't beat the Tezzeret deck, maybe you need to spend more time looking into what you can do to beat it, rather than what the DCI can do to help you out.

I don't really see how you can make both of these statements.  

In the first case, they mulliganed to THREE.  You apparently weren't the stacks player, but are you claiming that was part of their strategy?  Turn 1 "lose to FoW"?  On the draw, lose to turn 1 Duress, Thoughseize, Chalice @ 0, and Null Rod?  Even on the play, how is that worse than so many other turn 1's?  Is it worse than TPS/Long/Belcher just comboing out and winning the game on turn 1?  

Yet in the second statement, you go "Vintage is degenerate. Quit whining. Go deal with it." Yet, somehow in a world of turn 1 kills, the ever present Force of Will, and a variety of things that hose the card half of time (anytime the opponent is on the play), Balance is "No. Seriously. We can't deal with this Stacks guy mulliganing to three cards and casting Balance."

(And for the record, I desperately want to be that Stacks guy mulliganing to three cards and casting Balance)

[M.Solymossy]

What would be so wrong about a format where the #1 card was Balance? In the first case, they mulliganed to THREE.  You apparently weren't the stacks player, but are you claiming that was part of their strategy?  

No, but I am saying that turn 1 or turn 2 stupid balances to get one player out of the game are going to happen a ton more if the format has 4 of them.  Aggro strategies will no longer be valid, because they will run into balance.dec.

[BruiZar]

I'd play 4x Balance stax (bal-ax, bal-locks, bollocks.dec, 9-bollocks.dec?  ) immediately. I love workshops and I love balance even more. The problem with Balance is that sometimes its a sinkhole+pyroclasm+hymn to tourach, but in the right deck its a mindtwist+wrath of god+armageddon. That potential for abuse is just too risky to accept, although I wouldn't mind having it around for like 3 months orso, just to see its effect on the meta

[dicemanx]

I'd play 4x Balance stax (bal-ax, bal-locks, bollocks.dec, 9-bollocks.dec?  ) immediately. I love workshops and I love balance even more. The problem with Balance is that sometimes its a sinkhole+pyroclasm+hymn to tourach, but in the right deck its a mindtwist+wrath of god+armageddon. That potential for abuse is just too risky to accept, although I wouldn't mind having it around for like 3 months orso, just to see its effect on the meta

The players fearful of Balance seem to constantly misevaluate the "gains" made by casting Balance. For instance, suppose that you cast Balance against your Fish opponent's three creatures. Does that represent an actual gain? When your opponent mulligans to 3, and plays Mox, Land, Balance, on the first turn, has he made a gain? These represent parity situations or close to parity situations, not significant gains. You do not get to "sinkhole, mindtwist, and WoG" your opponent unilaterally - there is almost always some sort of trade-off. Balance is fundamentally a parity card, but *breaking* parity isn't as easy as it sounds and many succumb to the illusion post-Balance that actual gains have been made.

As I said before, maximizing the impact of Balance requires an investment - you must either resolve meaningful artifacts first, or design your deck so that it can recover better than your opponent post-Balance. This isn't like Trinisphere that would too often literally win the game immediately without recourse. As I argued before any Balance strategy is antithetical to most Drain strategies, and would present a very significant challenge to Drain decks. Of course, the great news is that we can test the impact of 4 Balance in the format, as has been suggested by Jason in an above post, so we don't have to resort to a blind speculation   

[M.Solymossy]

These represent parity situations or close to parity situations, not significant gains. You do not get to "sinkhole, mindtwist, and WoG" your opponent unilaterally - there is almost always some sort of trade-off. Balance is fundamentally a parity card, but *breaking* parity isn't as easy as it sounds and many succumb to the illusion post-Balance that actual gains have been made.

I usually try to avoid replying to your posts, because they are so well thought out that I'd be stupid to try a rebuttal, however...

It is true that Balance is more of a parity card than card advantage.  However, Stax decks are already designed, due to the other parts of the deck, to abuse balance.  Crucible of worlds, sphere of resistance, and chalice of the void make Balance so much better. 

Crucible:  Replay your lands, while your opponent doesn't get the chance.
Sphere:  Post-balance, disallows your opponent to cast many spells to get back into the game.
Chalice:  Same as sphere, set at 0/1 stops broken plays.

Not only that, but Balance really speeds up Smokestack's effectiveness.

However, at the same time, playing against actual balance Strategies does not worry me.  The card is definitely unfair, but there are definitely a ton of more busted cards in the format.  Stax is my only concern.

[dicemanx]

These represent parity situations or close to parity situations, not significant gains. You do not get to "sinkhole, mindtwist, and WoG" your opponent unilaterally - there is almost always some sort of trade-off. Balance is fundamentally a parity card, but *breaking* parity isn't as easy as it sounds and many succumb to the illusion post-Balance that actual gains have been made.

I usually try to avoid replying to your posts, because they are so well thought out that I'd be stupid to try a rebuttal, however...

It is true that Balance is more of a parity card than card advantage.  However, Stax decks are already designed, due to the other parts of the deck, to abuse balance.  Crucible of worlds, sphere of resistance, and chalice of the void make Balance so much better. 

Crucible:  Replay your lands, while your opponent doesn't get the chance.
Sphere:  Post-balance, disallows your opponent to cast many spells to get back into the game.
Chalice:  Same as sphere, set at 0/1 stops broken plays.

Not only that, but Balance really speeds up Smokestack's effectiveness.

However, at the same time, playing against actual balance Strategies does not worry me.  The card is definitely unfair, but there are definitely a ton of more busted cards in the format.  Stax is my only concern.

Given that I mentioned that an investment is required to break parity, Stax, is an obvious way to try to engineer that without a doubt. What needs to be established though is that the Balance strategy within a Stax shell is too powerful for vintage. I appreciate that some are fearful that this might be the case, but my argument is that we are being a little too afraid of the card as evidenced by the fact that the post-Balance assessments are a little off the mark. It is very easy to suffer from the "shock" of having Balance played against us and "losing" so many cards/permanents that we might be fooled into thinking that our opponent has made a significant gain when in fact the resolution of the card merely established near parity.

Nevertheless, I would support the idea of testing out 4 Balance decks first to verify the claim. I'm actually excited to see the results; I might build a 4 balance Stax deck a little later today and try a number of test games.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

@M.Solymossy

I don't know why you seem to have taken an aggressive tone to me but more reasoning behind your answers would help. You haven't answered any of the points in my comment you seem to have just quoted tiny fragments and insulted me. The metagame currently seems to be vault/key decks vs anti-vault/key decks. How is this different from will decks vs anti-will decks? I've never considered that there should be a deck solely dedicated to taking down will decks that completely fizzles against other decks. However now, vault/key is so powerful that it is actually pushing out all other strategies. I refuse to believe that if mana drain strategies (aka the current key/vault.dec) took a kick to the balls that other decks that can't cut it right now wouldn't emerge. I also highly doubt that a pure combo deck won't emerge around this. Why play draw-7s in favor of more tutors and key/vault? They both provide alternatives to Will except draw-7s can fizzle and give your opponent a fresh 7 cards while a more solid tutor engine would support both Will and key/vault. Why cast a draw-7 when you can play super yawgmoth's bargain?

Your next statement makes no sense whatsoever the fact that there is no solid solution to the combo is a problem. See my other posts (which I'm assuming you've ignored) for the long list of things that stop every other combo around while simultaneously being splash hate compared to the 3-4 playable cards that stop key/vault. (which I think you're already aware of since you seem intelligent but are choosing to ignore in favor of insulting me) I assume you're also aware that all other combos in addition to being vulnerable to significantly more hate also cost more mana.

You also must not have thought through your next statement as no, we don't always follow the DCI. Point and case is proxy tournaments.

You should try reading what I type as I clearly said that drains have never been this dominant, not that drains aren't good or well played. Can any of those decks you listed be at 50% top-8 playability right now? I highly doubt it since I don't see the ban/restricted list full of cards to keep those decks in check. Theres a huge difference between dominating in a format where Serra Angel is considered playable and a format where MULTIPLE decks can get CONSISTANT turn 3 goldfishes with some sort of protection. Vintage will always push the envelope but in all honesty you can't get much faster than this just look at belcher.

Your final comment does nothing to discourage my point. Theres a difference between casting Tezz and winning this turn/next turn at the latest with the ability to lose 2 counters and casting Tezz hoping your oponent has no creatures to attack Tezz and remove his counters (since his ability only adds 1 counter at a time even Itacian Javelineers can keep him in check) so that 2 turns down the line assuming you have 4 artifacts and he has no blockers (or 1 extra artifact/turn to fetch a mox with his ability for each blocker if somehow you manage to get enough counters even though he has creatures) you can attack and win. Sure the extra turns/restrictions/vulnerability may not matter in some matches but that by no means would make Tezz anywhere near as powerful as it is right now.

[Prospero]

This whole discussion seems a little absurd.

There are hate cards in the environment, and as nearly everyone has pointed out, Tezzeret himself isn't the issue; most Tezzeret decks run 1-2 in the main.

If you're so terrified of the Time Vault/Key combo, then run something to deal with it.  Ever see a Tezzeret player try to go infinite under a Smokestack on two?  It doesn't end so well for him.

It's time for the environment to correct itself.  There were 28 Mana Drains and 28 Force of Will's at the most recent Bluebell top 8.  Tezzeret isn't the issue, but for that matter, neither is Drain - it's the deck choices that people are making.  If you want to beat Tezzeret, you can beat him.  You just might have to play cards that aren't named Mana Drain and Force of Will.  Seems like people are having a tough time rationalizing that choice.

And if the DCI feels like gifting me 3 extra Balance, or a playset of 3Sphere's then thanks to everybody who argued for that ridiculous decision.