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Neonico
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« Reply #120 on: April 01, 2009, 04:00:03 am » |
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Razormane costs too much. If I can resolve 5 mana sorceries, I'm doing OK. Similarly, if I resolve Tinker (as another way to get him), I've already won. I want something that lets me actually play the game before I get to 5, like Goyf. That was Oath's draw, it only costs 2 mana to get you a giant monster.
I play razormane because i try to stay Ub. The easiest solution is of course to play R for firespout ( and REB, rack and ruin and so on) or G for tarmogoyf (and krosan grip, oxydize, trygon predator etc...) but i try not to. |
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Caron
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« Reply #121 on: April 01, 2009, 08:11:56 am » |
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Razormane costs too much. If I can resolve 5 mana sorceries, I'm doing OK. Similarly, if I resolve Tinker (as another way to get him), I've already won. I want something that lets me actually play the game before I get to 5, like Goyf. That was Oath's draw, it only costs 2 mana to get you a giant monster.
I play razormane because i try to stay Ub. The easiest solution is of course to play R for firespout ( and REB, rack and ruin and so on) or G for tarmogoyf (and krosan grip, oxydize, trygon predator etc...) but i try not to. great choice neonico... i agree.. CARONDIMONIO |
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gamegeek2
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« Reply #122 on: April 02, 2009, 10:35:49 pm » |
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If you're going for more 5 mana sorcery speed cards, why not more Tezzeret? Seems better than Masticore...
I'm liking Trinket Mage in my testing, gets a wide variety of excellent cards from Voltaic Key to Black Lotus.
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Neonico
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« Reply #123 on: April 03, 2009, 01:34:19 am » |
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If you're going for more 5 mana sorcery speed cards, why not more Tezzeret? Seems better than Masticore...
I'm liking Trinket Mage in my testing, gets a wide variety of excellent cards from Voltaic Key to Black Lotus.
Tezzeret isby farthe worst card in my list.... Why would i want more maindeck ? And how more tezzeret is a good answer to fishies/Aggro mathcups ? Wespeack ofpostboard Fish/Aggro matchup there, tezzeret is allmost impossible to keep alive against them. And EE is a bad solution because ofthe null rods. And razormane is often a good option because against you, they side out the spot removal. |
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M.Solymossy
Restricted Posting
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Sphinx of The Steel Wind
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« Reply #124 on: April 03, 2009, 10:34:06 am » |
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Razormane Masticore is the worst idea I've ever heard in Tezzeret, and I hope nobody listens to your advice on playing it. The truth is, the fish decks board in artifact removal, because they want to stop you from playing the combo and just winning. They will let you go to your upkeep, discard your card, and then they will just blast it and leave you saying "Wiskey Tango Foxtrot, wish I played something that was actually good".
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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Grand Inquisitor
Always the play, never the thing
Adepts
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« Reply #125 on: April 03, 2009, 12:34:51 pm » |
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fish decks board in artifact removal... That hasn't been my experience at all. They have null rod to stop the combo and the'll bring in edicts for inkwell, maybe more duress effects. Usually they're pre-boarded for you, so unless they know your SB, it's basically just the MD you have to worry about. The reason NOT to play Razormane is that it costs 5 mana: If I can resolve 5 mana sorceries, I'm doing OK Exactly. Tarmogoyf, cheap creature removal, maybe oath or threads if you're really worried about it. |
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There is not a single argument in your post. Just statements that have no meaning. - Guli
It's pretty awesome that I did that - Smmenen
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Caron
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« Reply #126 on: April 04, 2009, 06:27:46 am » |
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.. i've been using masticore in my side versus fish and similar decks.. the old masticore i mean.. and it works very well... and the abyss too..
this is only my experience anyway...
i see goyf is very good choice too.. but i still think it's no woth another color..
...i don't have problems with fish now.. my doubt is still on tormod versus relic... i still can't decide which is better... and i is worth having them only in SB or olso one in maindcek.. mmm..
CARONDIMONIO
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 05:53:24 pm by Eastman »
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Neonico
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« Reply #127 on: April 04, 2009, 09:54:01 am » |
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Razormane Masticore is the worst idea I've ever heard in Tezzeret, and I hope nobody listens to your advice on playing it. The truth is, the fish decks board in artifact removal, because they want to stop you from playing the combo and just winning. They will let you go to your upkeep, discard your card, and then they will just blast it and leave you saying "Wiskey Tango Foxtrot, wish I played something that was actually good".
IT's not just an idea you never heard. It has been tested, and is really efficient (@Caron : i prefer it over old masticore because of null rod) Ho and a fish deck boarding in some artefact removal is the stupidest thing i ever heard in a long time. Why would a fish deck board in artefact hate against you as they allready packing null rod, negating you vault plan ? And a fish player that keep its creaure spot removal against you is clearly doing something wrong, as they won't be able to hit your robot in the tinker plan (Leviathan) @Grand Inquisitor : the cost of masticore can seem to be prohibitive, but not as much as weakening your manabase in a matchup like fish, playing Rod, Daze and wasteland. Of course tarmogoyf is the greatest answer to those decks, but not at the cost of loosing to wastelands and rods for me. And you still have your drains to power out fast masticores. I also tested Murderous redcap, which is great because of 3for1, but the BB cost was hard to acheive because of wastelands. SMother is another good choice. |
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« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 10:04:03 am by Neonico »
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unicoerner
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« Reply #128 on: April 04, 2009, 10:55:25 am » |
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If razorman would cost 4 i would love it, becasue you could search it with Tez.
I am searching for some other good answer, which i can search with Tez.
But Razorman is quite strong, but i think there should be a better card around, but i haven`t found it yet.
Ofcourse i am just speaking for Tez without a 3rd colour
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every critic is good critic
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FlyFlySideOfFry
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« Reply #129 on: April 04, 2009, 11:34:00 am » |
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If your opponent isn't running green+black or if Null Rod is out Plague Boiler wipes the board in 3 turns and can be fetched with tezz.
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Mickey Mouse is on a Magic card. Your argument is invalid.
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M.Solymossy
Restricted Posting
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Sphinx of The Steel Wind
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« Reply #130 on: April 04, 2009, 11:53:55 am » |
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IT's not just an idea you never heard.
It has been tested, and is really efficient (@Caron : i prefer it over old masticore because of null rod)
Ho and a fish deck boarding in some artefact removal is the stupidest thing i ever heard in a long time. Why would a fish deck board in artefact hate against you as they allready packing null rod, negating you vault plan ? And a fish player that keep its creaure spot removal against you is clearly doing something wrong, as they won't be able to hit your robot in the tinker plan (Leviathan)
You act as if they will always resolve null rod. And they KNOW you're going to board in answers to their null rod, so why wouldn't they board in 2 krosan grips, or other artifact removal spells that stop you from going infinite. You also should NEVER have cards you want to discard every turn against them, and if you have 5 mana to hardcast that guy, winning should be easy anyway. Fish NEVER wins if they don't shut off your ability to play your 3 and 4 costed draw spells. |
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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Blovdek
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« Reply #131 on: April 04, 2009, 12:40:12 pm » |
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The best card you can fetch with your tezzeret is Master of Etherium if you dont want to splash. But i find sowers quite effective in the fish matchup in my tezzeret builds. I think Razormane Masticore and Masticore are terrible ideac. As goes for the Master of Etherium, he is good but you can always find better cards...
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Neonico
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« Reply #132 on: April 05, 2009, 02:34:18 am » |
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I don't play MAsticore in my SB to eventually fetch it with tezzeret.
In fact, in any creautre based matchup, i side out my tezzeret from the deck.
Perhaps now, M.SOLOMOSSY will understand better the logical behind my choice to run it.... And stop saying that 5 manas bababa
If i can stop null rod, i go for the Vault/Key road, and no fish players got Artefact hate against me as far as i remeber.
If null rod land, i go fortinkerleviathan or mana drain into masticore plan.
And seriously solomossy, do you really think that with a masticore on board against fish you will need your cards in hand ? Discarding isnever a problem, this card wins the matchup by itself.
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 02:39:48 am by Neonico »
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #133 on: April 05, 2009, 04:01:33 am » |
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I often board out at least one drain against Fish here. The most prevalent fish deck (BUG) doesn't really ever get things drained between Null Rod, Wastes, Stifles, and Cursecatchers. Running an anti-aggro plan against them which requires me to resolve a Drain is a tough sell. Also, Tarmogoyf can get bigger than masticore on their side, and if that happens then he really doesn't do anything but try and race (and likely fail miserably). Of course if you can keep Null Rod off the table, you often can win through Key-Vault or just by drawing a bunch of cards because suddenly half their deck is blanks, and Tinker is always the best way to win the matchup, but I like that Goyf lets me do something when they stifle a fetch and waste a land and get Null Rod active, and it doesn't require me to draw a massive number of lands or somehow resolve a drain on something that costs more than 1 (have you ever tried to use Drain against a Cursecatcher deck when you're on the draw? It is so awkward).
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Team Meandeck Team Serious LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #134 on: April 05, 2009, 06:14:32 am » |
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I don't play MAsticore in my SB to eventually fetch it with tezzeret.
In fact, in any creautre based matchup, i side out my tezzeret from the deck.
Perhaps now, M.SOLOMOSSY will understand better the logical behind my choice to run it.... And stop saying that 5 manas bababa
If i can stop null rod, i go for the Vault/Key road, and no fish players got Artefact hate against me as far as i remeber.
If null rod land, i go fortinkerleviathan or mana drain into masticore plan.
And seriously solomossy, do you really think that with a masticore on board against fish you will need your cards in hand ? Discarding isnever a problem, this card wins the matchup by itself.
Wait how do you utilize masticore with null rod out? Seems like a 4 mana 4/4 is sub par compared to a 2 mana 5/6 goyf |
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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Neonico
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« Reply #135 on: April 05, 2009, 10:49:27 am » |
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I don't play MAsticore in my SB to eventually fetch it with tezzeret.
In fact, in any creautre based matchup, i side out my tezzeret from the deck.
Perhaps now, M.SOLOMOSSY will understand better the logical behind my choice to run it.... And stop saying that 5 manas bababa
If i can stop null rod, i go for the Vault/Key road, and no fish players got Artefact hate against me as far as i remeber.
If null rod land, i go fortinkerleviathan or mana drain into masticore plan.
And seriously solomossy, do you really think that with a masticore on board against fish you will need your cards in hand ? Discarding isnever a problem, this card wins the matchup by itself.
Wait how do you utilize masticore with null rod out? Seems like a 4 mana 4/4 is sub par compared to a 2 mana 5/6 goyf OKay, because it's notclear anymore : I speack of razromane masticore, because of Rod issue I know thatTarmogoyf is better but we are discussing a Ub tezzeret solution. @lordHomerCat: You pointed some interesting points, all you have to do is drain something on turn 3 or 4, not necessary on turn 2, fish deck got a really slow clock, it's not really a problem. It's not that hard to play around daze effects, especially in a Ub version of the deck, with 6 or7bascis lands. |
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 10:53:52 am by Neonico »
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Caron
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« Reply #136 on: April 05, 2009, 11:11:54 am » |
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... another question:
Have you ever tryed esperzoa SB solution versus fish(aggro-creatures) instead of goyf?
looks like an interesting solution and you don't need green.. no?
CARONDIMONIO
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M.Solymossy
Restricted Posting
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Sphinx of The Steel Wind
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« Reply #137 on: April 05, 2009, 12:00:37 pm » |
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Perhaps now, M.SOLOMOSSY will understand better the logical behind my choice to run it.... And stop saying that 5 manas The only thing I'm understanding is you're doing an awful job of convincing me this isn't terrible. As Jimmy (LHC) pointed out,Tarmogoyf>Razormane Masticore. You will never race a GOOD fish player, and you won't be killing their biggest threat (Goofus). And yes, cards in hand actually do matter against fish, because if they grind your cards down, they will just end up dealing with your razormane masticore. if they have two tarmogoyfs down, even if you shoot one, they can just trade with you, since that guy is always a 5/6 against Tezzeret. Try not to flame an entire thread. -Eastman |
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 05:46:05 pm by Eastman »
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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Little Joe
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« Reply #138 on: April 05, 2009, 01:14:01 pm » |
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Perhaps now, M.SOLOMOSSY will understand better the logical behind my choice to run it.... And stop saying that 5 manas The only thing I'm understanding is you're doing an awful job of convincing me this isn't terrible. As Jimmy (LHC) pointed out,Tarmogoyf>Razormane Masticore. You will never race a GOOD fish player, and you won't be killing their biggest threat (Goofus). And yes, cards in hand actually do matter against fish, because if they grind your cards down, they will just end up dealing with your razormane masticore. if they have two tarmogoyfs down, even if you shoot one, they can just trade with you, since that guy is always a 5/6 against Tezzeret. I fully agree with Mike. |
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 05:39:43 pm by Eastman »
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Caron
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« Reply #139 on: April 05, 2009, 04:41:02 pm » |
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Verbal warning for blatant flaming. Let's keep this civil, and keep the discussion focused on the cards, not the people -Eastman
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 05:43:00 pm by Eastman »
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DuKeLiO
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« Reply #140 on: April 05, 2009, 04:53:48 pm » |
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Another route for the sideboard is boarding in a playset of Oath of Druids and some creatures. There are a lot of slots, 2 more than the 4 Tarmogoyfs plan, but Oath of Druids is far better against Fish than a Tarmogoyf. Emphyreal Archangel and Inkwell Leviathan are game against Fish. And the same can be said against aggroMWS.
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Little Joe
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« Reply #141 on: April 05, 2009, 05:39:11 pm » |
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Appreciate what you're trying to do, but let the Mods handle the moderation. This thread is going in a bad direction, but I really don't want to lock it because I'm interested in the discussion myself. So from here on out it's full warnings for anything close to a flame in this thread. -Eastman
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« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 05:44:32 pm by Eastman »
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Eastman
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« Reply #142 on: April 05, 2009, 05:53:39 pm » |
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.. i've been using masticore in my side versus fish and similar decks.. the old masticore i mean.. and it works very well... and the abyss too..
this is only my experience anyway...
i see goyf is very good choice too.. but i still think it's no woth another color..
...i don't have problems with fish now.. my doubt is still on tormod versus relic... i still can't decide which is better... and i is worth having them only in SB or olso one in maindcek.. mmm..
CARONDIMONIO
I've been running one masticore (the old one), 2 goyf, and 2 sower of temptation. It might be overkill but it gets the job done, and I like to have spare permanents in the SB to bring in against workshops. On Masticore: Masticore comes in against Ichorid as well, since you can just let it die when you want to kill their bridges, so it is at least better than a Mana Drain or something else that is completely irrelevant in that matchup. Goyfs: I don't like to commit to goyf since I only have 1 trop even post board, so it's a bit risky to have my SB plan entirely dependent on green. That said, I don't think that grouping is so strong as to be 'optimal.' I think we're at the level of nuance where its going to be very dependent on what the individual player is comfortable with and on the meta that is expected. |
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #143 on: April 05, 2009, 11:51:42 pm » |
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I don't understand why someone would use masticore instead of pyroclasm. If you maindeck or s/b tarmogoyf or trygon predator fish are rarely a problem. I think this is more an issue of boredom and people wanting to use neat cards instead more useful cards but then again in the past I've seen razormane in a lot of top 8 s/bs.
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Caron
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« Reply #144 on: April 06, 2009, 03:37:42 am » |
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...jamestosetti consider that we don't have to splash green or red if we use masticore... ad trust me.. both the new and the old one are very good vs fish..
..pyroclasm or massacre or similar removal are not so efficient compared to masticore.. (i've played them alot in this deck and in drain-tendrils decks)
.. as i use 2 transmute artifact in my tezzeret.. i'm also curious to see how esperzoa works in SB... it is also a blue card.. mmm...
.. SB oath solution looks also very interesting.. but still will force me to splash green... and i'm trying to focus on only blue and black deck...
i often get to top 8 with this solution but still my best place has been 3rd...
actually the matchups i hate are TPS and drain-tendrils.. but maybe because i'm still not so good with tezzeret.. that's why im playtesting alot.. more to improve my self than my deck maybe...
...CARONDIMONIO
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Eastman
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« Reply #145 on: April 06, 2009, 07:40:50 am » |
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I don't understand why someone would use masticore instead of pyroclasm. If you maindeck or s/b tarmogoyf or trygon predator fish are rarely a problem. I think this is more an issue of boredom and people wanting to use neat cards instead more useful cards but then again in the past I've seen razormane in a lot of top 8 s/bs.
Yah and I sort of suspect that we have been systematically underestimating Razormane. David Pla, who is currently first in the rankings, keeps posting great results with workshop lists sporting 3 Razormanes MD. http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=989&highlight=1#place1 I mean the thing does kill welders and first strike just about everything in vintage except robots. |
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EnialisLiadon
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I like cake.
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« Reply #146 on: April 06, 2009, 09:18:36 am » |
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For those rocking the green splash, has anyone had any success with Oaths in the sideboard over Tarmogoyfs? There's a fair amount of BUG fish (with or without Dreadnoughts) and even a little bit of goblins in my meta. Goyf can hold the fort for a little while, but he often gets overpowered and raced.
I was thinking of changing my sideboard up a little bit to include 4 Oaths, 1 Gaea's Blessing and 1 Empyrial Archangel. Or would 2 Angels be better than 1 Angel and 1 Blessing?
Oath can also act as Tinker 2-5 and Colossus is a great defensive creature against Dreadnought. I figure Colossus can block Dreadnought while Archangel swings in the air, or vice versa if I'm facing down Tarmogoyfs or goblins
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DuKeLiO
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« Reply #147 on: April 06, 2009, 01:26:30 pm » |
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I`ve played the Oath aproach in two tourneys, the beta sapphire side event in chicago and a LMV Event in Madrid some weeks before. It's difficult to overpower or overrace Emphyreal Archangel or Darksteel Colossus. I also used it against Bomberman and Ichorid (only leaving Yixlid and Emphyreal Archangel). Also a friend of mine top4ed yesterday in another tournament here in Spain with the same list, and lost in the top4 due to a great side mistake. |
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mutedequilibrium
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« Reply #148 on: April 06, 2009, 02:06:49 pm » |
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I don't understand why someone would use masticore instead of pyroclasm. If you maindeck or s/b tarmogoyf or trygon predator fish are rarely a problem. I think this is more an issue of boredom and people wanting to use neat cards instead more useful cards but then again in the past I've seen razormane in a lot of top 8 s/bs.
Yah and I sort of suspect that we have been systematically underestimating Razormane. David Pla, who is currently first in the rankings, keeps posting great results with workshop lists sporting 3 Razormanes MD. http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=989&highlight=1#place1 I mean the thing does kill welders and first strike just about everything in vintage except robots. Razormane Masticore in a Workshop deck is one thing. Razormane in Tezzeret is a completely different story. |
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Caron
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« Reply #149 on: April 08, 2009, 07:37:20 am » |
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has anyone tryed to use relearn or reconstruct in the UB tezzeret maindeck?
... CARONDIMONIO
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