TPS players

[Troy_Costisick]

If Mind's Desire was unrestricted, then I wouldn't care in the slightest.  It's not like I love going Tinker -> Jar against decks packing counters and other obviously dangerous scenarios, but without Brainstorm and Ponder around, getting 4UU is a true difficulty (on top of sometimes getting to Desire for 5 and then completely whiffing because there is no bomb).

I agree.  An unrestricted Mind's Desire wouldn't make much difference.  Running more than 1 would clog up your hands and if you resolve one during a agame, you're very very likely to win anyway.

As far as good blue cards to play, I really like Frantic Search (I think it's been mentioned before).  It dumps cards in the GY, turns junk into gem, and untaps your lands.  To me, it ought to get serious consideration in a TPS list.

Peace,

-Troy

[Marske]

If Mind's Desire was unrestricted, then I wouldn't care in the slightest.  It's not like I love going Tinker -> Jar against decks packing counters and other obviously dangerous scenarios, but without Brainstorm and Ponder around, getting 4UU is a true difficulty (on top of sometimes getting to Desire for 5 and then completely whiffing because there is no bomb).

Minds Desire is the hardest of bombs to setup in TPS that's correct it's also your best weapon when facing drain decks.... I would have to hear / read some REAL good arguments about not playing this in a TPS list. Playing a Minds desire basically means you win on that spot allot of the time if it's played for 5+ storm.

After reading these discussions, I have definitely jumped on the Slaughter Pact bandwagon because I frankly just like the card so much more than Massacre and it only took me a little bit of testing to figure that out.

Slaughter pact is good, I'll give you that... But I like having Shriekmaw more (because it's a terror AND has legs) it basically fills the spot left open by Wumpus (who costs to much mana to really use effectively.) True Slaughter pact can kill a canonist which the Maw can't but I would run both (as can be seen in my sideboard from the list I linked before) if you expect lots of creatures you need to deal with.

[desolutionist]

Instead of suboptimal cards like Serum Visions, Careful Study, and Meditate have you guys considered Thirst for Knowledge?  It's clearly better.  Cephalid Coliseum and Frantic Search are also really good hand-fixers.

[hazard]

I would say that any discussion about alternative draw/card quality cards for TPS lists would have to include the draw/card quality choices that currently exist in the deck and ask the question: are any of these suggestions more optimal than what we currently have?  Here is what we already have:

Card Quality/Draw

1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall

Tutors

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Grim Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

Sticking with a list somewhat close to what we have seen earlier in this thread, which of these eleven cards – okay let’s say eight because I don’t think I could ever imagine dropping Ancestral, Demonic, or Mystical from the list - would you cut to replace with any of these:

Serum Visions
Careful Study
Meditate
Ideas Unbound
Frantic Search
Gush
Opt
Impulse
Lat-Nam’s Legacy
Thirst for Knowledge
Strategic Planning
Cephalid Coliseum
Skeletal Scrying
Night’s Whisper

Or would you cut something else in the list where the slot would be better served as additional draw/card quality?  I would love to find a slot for Night’s Whisper, but I think the card I would want to drop for it is Merchant Scroll and it is perilous to drop your blue count for FOW reasons.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Instead of suboptimal cards like Serum Visions, Careful Study, and Meditate have you guys considered Thirst for Knowledge?  It's clearly better.  Cephalid Coliseum and Frantic Search are also really good hand-fixers.

Well cards like Serum Visions and Careful Study are functionally different from cards like Meditate and Thirst for Knowledge so to compare them all at once is rather flawed and in no way would I say TfK is "clearly better". Serum and Study fulfill the role of sculpting your hand early for an effective bomb while Meditate and Thirst are semi-bombs themselves. The question becomes does the TPS list you are considering run enough early game gas to consistantly do what it wants to do on the critical turn. I've always thought that for a deck to be successful it has to use the maximum possible reasonable resources each turn. That means if you want to run bigger bombs like Meditate/TfK/Intuition you are likely already running a large set of early game goodness like Duress/Thoughtsieze/tutors and are more concerned with keeping the late game going. However, if you have found a set of bombs you are comfortable with and prefer sculpting early and protecting later with FoW/MisD it would make more sense to increase the number of low casting cost cards that you can drop turns 1/2 to make sure turns 2/3 are big. Basically what I'm saying is the faster lists (in the sense of putting your opponent at 0 life not resource battles) will likely move towards Serum Visions (or Ponder/Brainstorm if they make it off the list any time soon) while a slower list will likely migrate towards TfK/Intuition/Meditate as ways of winning the resource war. The slower lists would likely do better against drains(nice meta call atm apparenly) while the faster against Ichorid/aggro/shop. The beauty of a deck like TPS is even though 90% of the deck is similar the last 10% is so flexible that you can change the way it plays out drastically.

I've never been a fan of Night's Whisper because it seems more like a compromise between something big that does something now and something small to help your something big later. On turn 1 it requires a Mox or rit+duress/sieze and it could lead to the critical difference in storm you need for only 2 random cards. Either that or it is being played on turn 2 off lands in which case it seems underwhelming on both the combo turn or a set-up turn. This is of course my personal bias showing and there is nothing wrong with a compromise if it fits your deck. I suppose I just prefer making the perfect turn being able to find the correct next bomb if it fizzles as opposed to just hoarding 2-3 totally random bombs and dropping one after another hoping that if my opponent has an answer to one he won't untap and have another answer. I just don't like the idea of my opponent being in control of when I go off as opposed to me forcing(pun) my way through. I'd probably advocate Night's Whisper if it was an instant simply because you can represent a counterspell and make your opponent question his moves but as a sorcery I'm just not a fan of this instead of something like Grim Tutor.

Then again to each his own and if you can top-8 and have fun at the same time with your playstyle more power to you.

[Stormanimagus]

One thing that's occured to me in reading this thread is that no one has revisited Intuition-Tendrils in a while. That deck would seem to have many of the much-needed elements for a combo deck right now:

1.Lots of Duress Effects
2.A Good fit for MD Confidant
3.A Consistent Draw Engine + Setup (Intuition by itself with Rituals or Even AK thrown in)

Also, GY hate is not very prevalent right now as people shift their sights to beating Time Vault so a Will dependent deck like IT could do very well.

I think that IF GY hate became more prevalent again one might want to run a more consistent non-will-dependent Tendrils deck like Ad-Nauseam Tendrils.

I'll have to start gathering up my notes on IT. It could be just what the doctor ordered for "Waterbury."

Edit: After gathering some notes I have a list for y'all. It's completely untested, but it does have the elements for a good IT list IMO

IT-Tech Revisited

Land (12):
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Memory Jar

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Creatures (3):
3 Dark Confidant

Sorceries (14):
3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils Of Agony
2 Grim Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Ponder







Instants (20):
4 Force Of Will
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild

Enchantments (1):
1 Necropotence

SB
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Seal Of Primordium

Now that I'm looking at it I might want to include Regrowth in there somewhere. Heck, we could even switch in over to Drain-Tendrils and cut the Rituals. Hmmmmm. . .

[Negator13]

I'm a pretty big fan of Sensei's Divining Top in TPS, usually 1-2 copies. It used to almost make the cut for me back when 4 BS was legal, but the fact that Brainstorm and Top itself interacted rather redundantly together stopped me from running it. Now that BS is gone, I find running a Top or 2 is very good. It has many benefits in the deck: It makes you draw 7's more like draw 10's, it protects from Duress, it stabilizes shaky-mana hands, and it makes your topdeck tutors a lot better. Finally, and more subtly, it makes FoW and misdirection much better cards, because with a Top out, you have the top 3 of your deck at your disposal to either find a blue card when you have FoW in hand, or find Fow/MisD when you have a blue card in hand. When you are Duressed and your opponent sees no FoW, or takes your only blue card, you can often blow them out by suddenly popping up with the necessary card via Top. Top also increases the utility of your off-color and colorless artifact acceleration, giving you something useful to do with your excess non-colored mana.

I view the following cards essentially as replacements for the missing 3 Brainstorms:

1 Ponder
1 Imperial Seal
1 Sensei's Top

The configuration of these 3 plus the 1 Brainstorm is actually not that noticeably weaker than 4 BS.

[jamestosetti]

Hmmmm, I bet I think tps is'nt as good as it used to be is because I only play in mwsplay and If you use the same deck twice they'll be playing the anti. I own the deck to 7 proxy but vintage players are hard to come by in my area.I think I'm gonna have to take a drive soon and play in a bigger tournament.

[desolutionist]

Instead of suboptimal cards like Serum Visions, Careful Study, and Meditate have you guys considered Thirst for Knowledge?  It's clearly better.  Cephalid Coliseum and Frantic Search are also really good hand-fixers.

Well cards like Serum Visions and Careful Study are functionally different from cards like Meditate and Thirst for Knowledge so to compare them all at once is rather flawed and in no way would I say TfK is "clearly better". Serum and Study fulfill the role of sculpting your hand early for an effective bomb while Meditate and Thirst are semi-bombs themselves. The question becomes does the TPS list you are considering run enough early game gas to consistantly do what it wants to do on the critical turn. I've always thought that for a deck to be successful it has to use the maximum possible reasonable resources each turn. That means if you want to run bigger bombs like Meditate/TfK/Intuition you are likely already running a large set of early game goodness like Duress/Thoughtsieze/tutors and are more concerned with keeping the late game going. However, if you have found a set of bombs you are comfortable with and prefer sculpting early and protecting later with FoW/MisD it would make more sense to increase the number of low casting cost cards that you can drop turns 1/2 to make sure turns 2/3 are big. Basically what I'm saying is the faster lists (in the sense of putting your opponent at 0 life not resource battles) will likely move towards Serum Visions (or Ponder/Brainstorm if they make it off the list any time soon) while a slower list will likely migrate towards TfK/Intuition/Meditate as ways of winning the resource war. The slower lists would likely do better against drains(nice meta call atm apparenly) while the faster against Ichorid/aggro/shop. The beauty of a deck like TPS is even though 90% of the deck is similar the last 10% is so flexible that you can change the way it plays out drastically.

I've never been a fan of Night's Whisper because it seems more like a compromise between something big that does something now and something small to help your something big later. On turn 1 it requires a Mox or rit+duress/sieze and it could lead to the critical difference in storm you need for only 2 random cards. Either that or it is being played on turn 2 off lands in which case it seems underwhelming on both the combo turn or a set-up turn. This is of course my personal bias showing and there is nothing wrong with a compromise if it fits your deck. I suppose I just prefer making the perfect turn being able to find the correct next bomb if it fizzles as opposed to just hoarding 2-3 totally random bombs and dropping one after another hoping that if my opponent has an answer to one he won't untap and have another answer. I just don't like the idea of my opponent being in control of when I go off as opposed to me forcing(pun) my way through. I'd probably advocate Night's Whisper if it was an instant simply because you can represent a counterspell and make your opponent question his moves but as a sorcery I'm just not a fan of this instead of something like Grim Tutor.

Then again to each his own and if you can top-8 and have fun at the same time with your playstyle more power to you.

functionally different?
rather flawed? lol...

You're either making stuff up or you have a flawed understanding of the deck. 

To start with the basics, all of the spells in ritual storm can be grouped into the following:

Mana
Artifact
Dark Ritual

Tutors/Draw
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Ancestral Recall
Merchant Scroll
Brainstorm
Ponder
Timetwister
Gifts Ungiven
Fact or Fiction
Memory Jar
Tinker
Necropotence

Protection
Force of Will
Duress
Misdirection
bounce

Win
Yawgmoth's Will
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Mind's Desire*
Tendrils of Agony
Darksteel Colossus

The term "bomb" can pretty much only be used for Yawgmoth's Will and Yawgmoth's Bargain.  Mind's Desire can be another, but its much worse than the other two.  "Bomb" describes these cards well because if they resolve, you will win.

Tutors and draw spells work together to put one of the Yawgmoth's into your hand with enough mana to cast it.

That's it.

[neotrophy]

desolutionist, I believe you are seriously oversimplifying the deck.  I think that a number of people participating in this thread (yourself included) would do well to read Steven's series of 3 articles dedicated to the deck.

The Perfect Storm
Playing The Perfect Storm
and Winning with TPS
along with First Place: A Post-Shards Vintage Tournament Report where Steven shows how he think through real tournament conditions with the deck.

If you read those articles you will learn that there absolute is a qualitative difference between incidental draw/filter cards such as Brainstorm (which isn't even mentioned in his breakdown) and engines which win you the game, such as Necropotence, Timetwister and Memory Jar.  What FFSF is saying, correctly I think, is that cards such as Fact or Fiction and the suggested Thirst for Knowledge and Meditate are closer to these cards in application than to Brainstorm.  They have to be at that sort of price.  Take a look at the cards that remain in your "draw/tutor" list after removing cards I've mentioned and the much more tutor oriented Gifts Ungiven and the complete bomb, Tinker.  Nothing is left with a CMC > 2.

I think this indicates that anything that you're looking to add to the deck to replace the Brainstorms (which I actually completely disagree with some posters about the relative impact of the loss of) must also have a CMC <= 2.  This leaves Night's Whisper (which I have also always found underwhelming), Serum Visions, and Sensei's Divining Top.  Serum Visions is closer in its actual play to Brainstorm (or, more accurately, Ponder), but I think that the Top is the stronger card.  I say this particularly since, contrary to what others in this thread have been saying, TPS is not a particularly fast deck.  It's built for resilience and redundant, complementary engines over and above speed. 

The deck's name is apt.  As FFSF points out, often, and I think more often than not, the deck rewards patience and crafting the perfect hand to produce The Perfect Storm.  If you want to run out cards and draw heaps of them and raw speed to overwhelm you opponent, then perhaps something like Ad Nauseam combo is better suited to your playstyle.

[Marske]

The deck's name is apt.  As FFSF points out, often, and I think more often than not, the deck rewards patience and crafting the perfect hand to produce The Perfect Storm.  If you want to run out cards and draw heaps of them and raw speed to overwhelm you opponent, then perhaps something like Ad Nauseam combo is better suited to your playstyle.

I agree with this, a lot of people play TPS like it's Grim Long or ANT... it's not... you need to sculpt your hand and really create one turn for your "perfect storm" I've been having a lot of fun and some success with the list I linked earlier, it seems to have a good overall match up vs randon aggro decks packing null rods and it's been performing well vs drains.

[Diakonov]

Marske, I am intrigued by your success.  Perhaps I will give it another chance--personally, I have found it to be highly unsuccessful in particular vs. drain decks (probably about a 40% matchup for me lately).  I have had some difficulty in controlling my opponent's hand to the point that I feel like I can bide time to craft a "perfect storm" hand.  Against drains I have actually had more success with the balls-to-the-wall route, in other words, trying to simply go off as quickly as possible before they stabilize and hope that you don't fizzle out.  I've found that taking the time to set up can be dangerous.  I do agree, however, that it is very resilient against most Fish builds when compared to other combo decks.

As a side note, I am curious as to what decisions most TPS players make in certain situations.  For example, the first time I tutor I will normally go for either Ancestral or Tinker-->Jar, depending on my mana situation (and their hand, of course).  I like to stay as one-sidedly broken as possible, unless I am really in a bind in which case obviously you need to go for mana, duress effects, or bounce if you must.  Is Tinker-->Jar most other players' first choice?  I know that this decision is almost entirely dependent on how much mana is available, but for things in the range of 3 to 4?  Generally, I feel that the top 3 options are Tinker-->Jar, Gifts, and Timetwister (this one more so in the drain matchup).

[Marske]

Marske, I am intrigued by your success.  Perhaps I will give it another chance--personally, I have found it to be highly unsuccessful in particular vs. drain decks (probably about a 40% matchup for me lately).

The drain match up can be tricky but in no way is it worse then 50/50, I'm not saying this is the best match up out there at this time, but it comes down mostly to knowing how to play against it when playing TPS. Not that I mean this in a bragging way but I've played with Drains a lot and tested a lot vs Tezzeret and it really comes down to playskill and familiarity with the match up.

I do agree, however, that it is very resilient against most Fish builds when compared to other combo decks.

I've come to love the way TPS has a great / decent match up against random jank decks, fish and all those and still is able to perform and sometimes out perform the top tier decks.

I feel that the top 3 options are Tinker-->Jar, Gifts, and Timetwister (this one more so in the drain matchup).

Are you saying you actually tutor for Twister vs drains or am I reading this wrong ? Because that's one major error imo and it could explain why you're having such difficulties beating drains.

[Troy_Costisick]

As a side note, I am curious as to what decisions most TPS players make in certain situations.  For example, the first time I tutor I will normally go for either Ancestral or Tinker-->Jar, depending on my mana situation (and their hand, of course). 

I am by no means an expert on TPS, but I do play around with it in testing and on MWS.  So forgive my question if it's silly, but is that a normal play for TPS?  If I can tutor up or draw Tinker, I go for Colossus right away and try to protect him for two turns.  Even if I only get one attack in, that cuts my storm count in half.  The only time I ever Tinker for Jar is when I get a Tinker right in the middle of building my storm count- like off a Bargain or Mind's Desire or something.  And I never play it (Tinker -> Jar) against a control deck.  I am wrong on that?

Peace,

-Troy

[Marske]

@Troy_Costisick,
I agree with you that's not the "correct" line of play vs drain decks, basically playing draw7's is filling there hands up with countermagic Jar being the least dangerous because of the discard but Twister is something I even always board out vs drains. So your best bet if you get tinker to stick is grab the DSC.

Let me try and explain my logic behind this claim. Most drain decks pack 1/2 bounce spells maindeck and they need to find that ASAP when the big dude hits play, without 4 Scroll the chances of them doing this are not that big at all and you can also protect your big dude if need be. Fighting a counterwar over a bounce spell could be a good way to clear the way for a Will or even a tendrills if you managed to attack once with your DSC.

It sounds like you are trying to deal with drains in a very different approach then I do, not to be cocky or anything but maybe this is why you are having difficulties with that match up.

[Diakonov]

@Troy_Costisick,
I agree with you that's not the "correct" line of play vs drain decks, basically playing draw7's is filling there hands up with countermagic Jar being the least dangerous because of the discard but Twister is something I even always board out vs drains. So your best bet if you get tinker to stick is grab the DSC.

Let me try and explain my logic behind this claim. Most drain decks pack 1/2 bounce spells maindeck and they need to find that ASAP when the big dude hits play, without 4 Scroll the chances of them doing this are not that big at all and you can also protect your big dude if need be. Fighting a counterwar over a bounce spell could be a good way to clear the way for a Will or even a tendrills if you managed to attack once with your DSC.

It sounds like you are trying to deal with drains in a very different approach then I do, not to be cocky or anything but maybe this is why you are having difficulties with that match up.

I don't think it's cocky to have a reportedly more effective approach 

I honestly have not taken the slower approach against drains in a long time, probably due to a streak of failure when I last tried it.  Maybe it was just bad luck; I will test that matchup again differently. 

Just to clarify so that I don't sound like an idiot, yes Timetwister would be an AWFUL play if you didn't plan on trying to win that turn, and if the option is available I always attempt Tinker first.  Like I said, I have been paranoid of drain decks having too much time to stabilize, so my game plan has been to go all out and hope that I draw well off bombs.  If the opponent has drain mana open, in general I would rather wait and ramp (much to my dismay) than attempt to Twister.  If they don't have two blue, then the only real danger is Force, which generally speaking is not a huge problem for TPS if you have black mana open post-Twister (Duress etc.). 

For the same reason I have been avoiding Tinker-->Colossus.  Last I tested, they almost always found bounce in time, and even after 11 damage I found it difficult to achieve a small storm once in topdecking mode.

So, again, perhaps my testing was unlucky in the past and going gung-ho is not the answer to Tezz.  Can others confirm from their testing that the slow-play has been more successful against drains?

[rologa]

Against control I think the best play is go for Necropotence. It is easy to setup and with it in play and without control player putting pressure on the board you win easily. Going for Necro after first turn duress and putting in play with a ritual in second turn usually is a win.

Twister is not bad against control on the first turns (1st or 2nd), when control player hasn't developed his mana base. Then you can abuse it taking advantage of your acceleration. After that is dangerous because with Mana Drain online and with is draw engine ready he can take more advantage than you, you need luck drawing to abuse it.

Tinker for Colossus is only necessary against Fish and aggro or if there exist something that avoid you to win with Tendrils. I Tinker Colossus against control very few times, and always after seeing his hand and be sure he cannot find and answer. Tinker for Jar is quite good against lot of decks, your opponent only can counter some spells but not take profit of all the cards drawn like you. At worst you can develop your mana base. 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Against control I think the best play is go for Necropotence. It is easy to setup and with it in play and without control player putting pressure on the board you win easily. Going for Necro after first turn duress and putting in play with a ritual in second turn usually is a win.

Twister is not bad against control on the first turns (1st or 2nd), when control player hasn't developed his mana base. Then you can abuse it taking advantage of your acceleration. After that is dangerous because with Mana Drain online and with is draw engine ready he can take more advantage than you, you need luck drawing to abuse it.

Tinker for Colossus is only necessary against Fish and aggro or if there exist something that avoid you to win with Tendrils. I Tinker Colossus against control very few times, and always after seeing his hand and be sure he cannot find and answer. Tinker for Jar is quite good against lot of decks, your opponent only can counter some spells but not take profit of all the cards drawn like you. At worst you can develop your mana base. 

So assuming your opponent has no answers in his hand why would you go for a turn 3 necro (because its unlikely that you have the mana to drop it+duress+tutor by turn 2 or why not get bargain?)->chance at turn 4 win instead of turn 2 tinker->DSC turn 4 win. I mean what would you have to see in your opponent's hand to make you question going for a more solid win condition? It would take what: drain(because they would likely FoW duress if their singleton bounce is in hand), land, non-land blue source(mox/lotus/petal), bounce(because tutor->tinker kills you unless you turn 2 necro) and you would have to have no other bombs in your hand to bait drain or any other duress effect. Also tinker->DSC at the very worst is 1 turn slower (assuming some strange hand where you can turn 2 necro with duress+tutor but can't just bargain instead) but it also leaves you free to use your mana on turn 3(2 also if you have the mana) to either hurt your opponent or represent another bomb.

vampiric, land, jet[bigger mana=bargain], land, duress (without having 3 more mana in the last 2 cards or some type of bomb)
demonic, land, land, duress, ritual, lotus petal[permanent mana=bargain] (last card can't be a mox or ritual)

I guess those are 2 sample turn 2 necro hands but they seem to be extremely specific to have to make me not go for bargain on turn 2/3 instead. Not to mention the cards you draw have to fall under the same criteria. Maybe you care to explain more in-depth why you would go for the turn 4 win with necro instead of a turn 4 win with DSC?

[jamestosetti]

Tps vrs drain usually goes in tps favor as long as you can identify the deck your up against.....bomberman comes out of nowhere sometimes though. The only reason I wouldn't play tps in a very big tourney right now is because the decks are good enough these days to make you lose more matches than you need to. You can randomly lose to tezz because they can sometimes pull a tricky play. There are just to many suprises out there for me to play it all day and expect to not run into a bunch of different stuff. Tps already takes quite a bit of thought to play and it hasn't gotten any easier on the pilots. That's probably not a completely accurate statement because I can't keep playing against tier decks because mws play is full of hate and jank for tps. I guess if I had some regular people to test with I wouldn't hesitate to play it. I'm going to be testing some new versions of storm decks this weekend I've been thinking of.

[rologa]

I guess those are 2 sample turn 2 necro hands but they seem to be extremely specific to have to make me not go for bargain on turn 2/3 instead. Not to mention the cards you draw have to fall under the same criteria. Maybe you care to explain more in-depth why you would go for the turn 4 win with necro instead of a turn 4 win with DSC?

It's much easier to cast something that cost 3 mana that something that cost 6. Obviously if you have the mana to play Bargain go for it, but if you have to wait 1 or 2 turns to put it into play I prefer go to Necro to take the initiative, very important against control.

And the other question is clear also, I prefer necro because drawing 10 o more cards I can protect myself and go for the win while putting DSC on play don't avoid the other player can win before you kill him or that he find an answer for DSC. Playing with 4 Fow is a big different with necro in play.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I guess those are 2 sample turn 2 necro hands but they seem to be extremely specific to have to make me not go for bargain on turn 2/3 instead. Not to mention the cards you draw have to fall under the same criteria. Maybe you care to explain more in-depth why you would go for the turn 4 win with necro instead of a turn 4 win with DSC?

It's much easier to cast something that cost 3 mana that something that cost 6. Obviously if you have the mana to play Bargain go for it, but if you have to wait 1 or 2 turns to put it into play I prefer go to Necro to take the initiative, very important against control.

And the other question is clear also, I prefer necro because drawing 10 o more cards I can protect myself and go for the win while putting DSC on play don't avoid the other player can win before you kill him or that he find an answer for DSC. Playing with 4 Fow is a big different with necro in play.

My point is most of the time if you can afford to drop a turn 2 necro you can cast a turn 2-3 bargain instead. Assuming you cast necro any later than that because of the prohibitive mana cost having gone for tinker->DSC would have been just as fast without forcing you to tap out every single turn letting you get more business just in case colossus fails. Turn 2 tinker is better than a turn 3 necro in my opinion and 9/10 times that is usually the situation you'll be put in if it comes up.

[Eastman]

Assuming you cast necro any later than that because of the prohibitive mana cost having gone for tinker->DSC would have been just as fast

I think it's a mistake to compare the turn that you actually win on.  Your opponent gets two turns to stop DSC, which is rather easily done with MD bounce or a welder or any number of other things.  Even though you may not win much "faster" in terms of the turns, I think the win with a resolved necro is a lot harder for the control player to stop. 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Assuming you cast necro any later than that because of the prohibitive mana cost having gone for tinker->DSC would have been just as fast

I think it's a mistake to compare the turn that you actually win on.  Your opponent gets two turns to stop DSC, which is rather easily done with MD bounce or a welder or any number of other things.  Even though you may not win much "faster" in terms of the turns, I think the win with a resolved necro is a lot harder for the control player to stop. 

Well that isn't fair your opponent gets turns to play proactive disruption if you go for the win with necro also. Cards like Duress/Null Rod/Chalice/Spheres/Meddling Mage/Counterspells/any form of disruption at all are significantly more common than the singleton bounce most people run. Not to mention the extra turns is more time for your opponent to just win. Not to mention while your opponent is digging up an answer to DSC he is cutting your storm in 1/2 and you're digging up for either more bombs or some protection for the big man. The easiest example is whether doing turn 2 tinker on the play or turn 3 necro. The necro lets your opponent get up to 2 mana where basically every powerful form of disruption is. Not to mention the life loss can matter significantly. This might just be personal preference and maybe they're both equally viable I just don't see a reason to prefer turn 3 necro over a turn 2 tinker. I mean if the question was turn 2 tinker or turn 2 necro I'd probably go for necro but it would be really situational to get the massive amount of black mana without just being able to grab bargain so you don't pass the turn missing a lot of life.

[Eastman]

Assuming you cast necro any later than that because of the prohibitive mana cost having gone for tinker->DSC would have been just as fast

I think it's a mistake to compare the turn that you actually win on.  Your opponent gets two turns to stop DSC, which is rather easily done with MD bounce or a welder or any number of other things.  Even though you may not win much "faster" in terms of the turns, I think the win with a resolved necro is a lot harder for the control player to stop. 

Well that isn't fair your opponent gets turns to play proactive disruption if you go for the win with necro also. Cards like Duress/Null Rod/Chalice/Spheres/Meddling Mage/Counterspells/any form of disruption at all are significantly more common than the singleton bounce most people run.

Duress/Mage/Counterspells should not stop you from winning with a resolved necropotence.  You should definitely be able to win through those.

Null Rod/Chalice/Spheres are a different story, maybe a more complicated story.  But this is a discussion about the TPS matchup VS Control.  Control doesn't usually play any of those cards.  So, that just won't happen. 

Echoing Truth, on the other hand, is an absolute end to your hopes of riding DSC into the win.

This might just be personal preference and maybe they're both equally viable I just don't see a reason to prefer turn 3 necro over a turn 2 tinker.

This argument assumes its conclusion.  We're debating whether or not the necro and the tinker are equally viable in this situation, so it doesn't help much just to say that it is personal preference or they are equally viable.  I think necro is a better choice early against control than a suicide tinker, you disagree.   I contend that, should it resolve, the necro is a lot harder for the control player to stop than the tinker-resultant-DSC; that contention has not yet been addressed.  I'm saying that that is the reason to go for necro over tinker. 

it would be really situational to get the massive amount of black mana without just being able to grab bargain so you don't pass the turn missing a lot of life.

It is situational that you could cast necro but not bargain, I'll admit to that.  But there are a lot of those situations.  Those are the situations where you have BBB and not 4BB.  I contend that those situations occur very frequently, as 6 mana is twice as much as 3 mana. 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Assuming you cast necro any later than that because of the prohibitive mana cost having gone for tinker->DSC would have been just as fast

I think it's a mistake to compare the turn that you actually win on.  Your opponent gets two turns to stop DSC, which is rather easily done with MD bounce or a welder or any number of other things.  Even though you may not win much "faster" in terms of the turns, I think the win with a resolved necro is a lot harder for the control player to stop. 

Well that isn't fair your opponent gets turns to play proactive disruption if you go for the win with necro also. Cards like Duress/Null Rod/Chalice/Spheres/Meddling Mage/Counterspells/any form of disruption at all are significantly more common than the singleton bounce most people run.

Duress/Mage/Counterspells should not stop you from winning with a resolved necropotence.  You should definitely be able to win through those.

Null Rod/Chalice/Spheres are a different story, maybe a more complicated story.  But this is a discussion about the TPS matchup VS Control.  Control doesn't usually play any of those cards.  So, that just won't happen. 

Echoing Truth, on the other hand, is an absolute end to your hopes of riding DSC into the win.

This might just be personal preference and maybe they're both equally viable I just don't see a reason to prefer turn 3 necro over a turn 2 tinker.

This argument assumes its conclusion.  We're debating whether or not the necro and the tinker are equally viable in this situation, so it doesn't help much just to say that it is personal preference or they are equally viable.  I think necro is a better choice early against control than a suicide tinker, you disagree.   I contend that, should it resolve, the necro is a lot harder for the control player to stop than the tinker-resultant-DSC; that contention has not yet been addressed.  I'm saying that that is the reason to go for necro over tinker. 

it would be really situational to get the massive amount of black mana without just being able to grab bargain so you don't pass the turn missing a lot of life.

It is situational that you could cast necro but not bargain, I'll admit to that.  But there are a lot of those situations.  Those are the situations where you have BBB and not 4BB.  I contend that those situations occur very frequently, as 6 mana is twice as much as 3 mana. 

Oh you're right I was assuming a blind opponent for some reason my bad, but looking back we were also talking about Duress. So it is more a question of getting at least BBBBB in the first 2 turns instead of BBBB4 in the first 3. I stated that unless when I Duress I see the bounce in their hand in addition to a castable counterspell I would go for Tinker. You're right a resolved Necro is harder to deal with but Tinker is easier to resolve and is more flexible in that a Necro might force you to drop a draw-7 (which could be the end of you on turn 3 giving them a fresh 7 cards to find FoW/Drain/Negate/Leak/MisD/Commandeer) or pass the turn twice because you either can't drop all you need to in 1 turn(mana issues or the first bomb gets countered) or you have to Necro again. On the other hand after Tinker resolves all your resources can go into finding another bomb so after they spend all their resources digging out their singleton ET you might be in the situation to just win off a mini tendrils. I mean if you can protect a later necro then you should be able to protect Tinker/second bomb so why put yourself through the risk of problems outside of your control?

When we take Duress out of the equation all those other cards I listed become factors and fetching Tinker is even more viable. I just don't think TPS should try to play anything but the aggro role against an unknown deck. My point was that giving your opponent another turn's chance to Duress or counter your necro is far too dangerous and something as non-specific as tezz runs 8+ answers if you give them more time with necro but only 5 answers against Tinker. A lucky guess on MM from bomberman or Mindcensor can screw your necro hand and Chalice/Spheres can be run alongside drains in certain Oath/Slaver builds. I would say the statistical risk overall is greater when going for a necro win than going for a Tinker win. Most of your deck should ensure that even if they have a tutor they need to be careful because sorcery speed fetching without same turn casting allows you to either Duress it out or draw-7 it away. In the days of 4xMerchant/4xGush quick digging for bounce was easy but now by the time Intuition/TfK comes online DSC can go lethal while necro is just warming up.

[Diakonov]

Oh you're right I was assuming a blind opponent for some reason my bad, but looking back we were also talking about Duress. So it is more a question of getting at least BBBBB in the first 2 turns instead of BBBB4 in the first 3. I stated that unless when I Duress I see the bounce in their hand in addition to a castable counterspell I would go for Tinker. You're right a resolved Necro is harder to deal with but Tinker is easier to resolve...

This confuses me.  How is Tinker any easier to resolve than Necro??  By BBBBB I'm assuming you mean turn 1 Duress, turn 2 Vamp/Imp Seal, turn 3 Necro.  Replace Necro with Tinker and nothing has really changed.  Am I reading this incorrectly?  Are you saying that you wouldn't cast Duress first turn, and instead would tutor for Tinker blindly?

...and is more flexible in that a Necro might force you to drop a draw-7 (which could be the end of you on turn 3 giving them a fresh 7 cards to find FoW/Drain/Negate/Leak/MisD/Commandeer)...

First, Necro rarely forces you to drop a draw-7, at the very least you normally have the option of picking up another stack of cards for the following turn.  At that point, you might be forced to draw-7.  By the time you've drawn more than 12 cards off Necro, you should have dropped enough acceleration to make it probable that a draw-7 would end the game on the spot.

...or pass the turn twice because you either can't drop all you need to in 1 turn(mana issues or the first bomb gets countered) or you have to Necro again.

If this happens, like I said above, no big deal.  It's unlikely they're getting anything through too significant if you have a full hand and it's early.

On the other hand after Tinker resolves all your resources can go into finding another bomb so after they spend all their resources digging out their singleton ET you might be in the situation to just win off a mini tendrils.

You should probably be more specific when you say "all your resources."  I'm assuming you mean having another tutor in hand?  To a control deck, using "all their resources" means playing cards they probably would have played anyway, such as draw.  For the most part, the only point in which digging for an answer in a control deck is bad is when you have to spend a tutor to get the bounce.  Otherwise, their game plan is still moving forward properly.  This is why I would argue that pulling off that mini-tendrils is not nearly as easy as it may sound. 

I mean if you can protect a later necro then you should be able to protect Tinker/second bomb so why put yourself through the risk of problems outside of your control?

To protect Tinker, you need to A. resolve Tinker and B. be able to stop the imminent bounce.  With Necro you only need to worry about resolution.

When we take Duress out of the equation all those other cards I listed become factors and fetching Tinker is even more viable. I just don't think TPS should try to play anything but the aggro role against an unknown deck. My point was that giving your opponent another turn's chance to Duress or counter your necro is far too dangerous and something as non-specific as tezz runs 8+ answers if you give them more time with necro but only 5 answers against Tinker. A lucky guess on MM from bomberman or Mindcensor can screw your necro hand and Chalice/Spheres can be run alongside drains in certain Oath/Slaver builds. I would say the statistical risk overall is greater when going for a necro win than going for a Tinker win. Most of your deck should ensure that even if they have a tutor they need to be careful because sorcery speed fetching without same turn casting allows you to either Duress it out or draw-7 it away. In the days of 4xMerchant/4xGush quick digging for bounce was easy but now by the time Intuition/TfK comes online DSC can go lethal while necro is just warming up.

Once you take Duress out of the equation, you might be right.  If you have no idea what you're playing against, I could possibly understand the logic of a turn 2 robot instead of waiting for turn 3 Necro.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Oh you're right I was assuming a blind opponent for some reason my bad, but looking back we were also talking about Duress. So it is more a question of getting at least BBBBB in the first 2 turns instead of BBBB4 in the first 3. I stated that unless when I Duress I see the bounce in their hand in addition to a castable counterspell I would go for Tinker. You're right a resolved Necro is harder to deal with but Tinker is easier to resolve...

This confuses me.  How is Tinker any easier to resolve than Necro??  By BBBBB I'm assuming you mean turn 1 Duress, turn 2 Vamp/Imp Seal, turn 3 Necro.  Replace Necro with Tinker and nothing has really changed.  Am I reading this incorrectly?  Are you saying that you wouldn't cast Duress first turn, and instead would tutor for Tinker blindly?

I was talking about turn 2 necro vs turn 3 bargain. I said at least BBBBB not specifically and the massive colored requirement makes it hard to cast without justifying waiting a turn to bargain. On the other hand you can blow a ritual on turn 1 to cast both duress+tutor without having to worry about getting BBB the next turn when you go for tinker. My point is that if you have the massive black mana necessary to do it you could probably justify going for bargain depending on the situation. You were indeed reading it incorrectly.

...and is more flexible in that a Necro might force you to drop a draw-7 (which could be the end of you on turn 3 giving them a fresh 7 cards to find FoW/Drain/Negate/Leak/MisD/Commandeer)...

First, Necro rarely forces you to drop a draw-7, at the very least you normally have the option of picking up another stack of cards for the following turn.  At that point, you might be forced to draw-7.  By the time you've drawn more than 12 cards off Necro, you should have dropped enough acceleration to make it probable that a draw-7 would end the game on the spot.

...or pass the turn twice because you either can't drop all you need to in 1 turn(mana issues or the first bomb gets countered) or you have to Necro again.

If this happens, like I said above, no big deal.  It's unlikely they're getting anything through too significant if you have a full hand and it's early.

Giving your opponent free Time Walks while you're at a low life total to win hardly seems like it is insignificant or "no big deal" unless you manage to hit a couple of FoWs. All drain decks have some way to put down a quick finish and the tutors they would normally spend on bounce instead go for combo pieces. This becomes significantly more relevant if they manage to cast a quick Tinker of their own so that you only have 1 turn.

On the other hand after Tinker resolves all your resources can go into finding another bomb so after they spend all their resources digging out their singleton ET you might be in the situation to just win off a mini tendrils.

You should probably be more specific when you say "all your resources."  I'm assuming you mean having another tutor in hand?  To a control deck, using "all their resources" means playing cards they probably would have played anyway, such as draw.  For the most part, the only point in which digging for an answer in a control deck is bad is when you have to spend a tutor to get the bounce.  Otherwise, their game plan is still moving forward properly.  This is why I would argue that pulling off that mini-tendrils is not nearly as easy as it may sound. 

I mean if you can protect a later necro then you should be able to protect Tinker/second bomb so why put yourself through the risk of problems outside of your control?

To protect Tinker, you need to A. resolve Tinker and B. be able to stop the imminent bounce.  With Necro you only need to worry about resolution.

All their resources meaning their top priority becomes finding and resolving a bounce spell. Since we're talking about TPS you should be running a fair amount of protection that either slows down or prevents them from doing that. On the other hand casting necro a turn later (especially when you're on the play) lets them easily get UU. So let us say when you cast Duress there are 4 main likely options to see in their hand:

#1. Drain+Turn 1 Castable Counterspell (Take Turn 1 Castable Counterspell, go for Tinker)
#2. Turn 1 Castable Counterspell+Tutor (Niether Tinker nor Necro work here because they can[and likely will] tutor for another counterspell or Tinker/tezz)
#3. Drain+Tutor (Take Tutor, go for Tinker)
#4. Turn 1 Castable Counterspell+Bounce (Take the Turn 1 Castable Counterspell and go for Necro)

Most draw engines come online after the big man has already put through 11 damage so barring some massive lucksackery I highly doubt they could hit what they need off a single TfK.

When we take Duress out of the equation all those other cards I listed become factors and fetching Tinker is even more viable. I just don't think TPS should try to play anything but the aggro role against an unknown deck. My point was that giving your opponent another turn's chance to Duress or counter your necro is far too dangerous and something as non-specific as tezz runs 8+ answers if you give them more time with necro but only 5 answers against Tinker. A lucky guess on MM from bomberman or Mindcensor can screw your necro hand and Chalice/Spheres can be run alongside drains in certain Oath/Slaver builds. I would say the statistical risk overall is greater when going for a necro win than going for a Tinker win. Most of your deck should ensure that even if they have a tutor they need to be careful because sorcery speed fetching without same turn casting allows you to either Duress it out or draw-7 it away. In the days of 4xMerchant/4xGush quick digging for bounce was easy but now by the time Intuition/TfK comes online DSC can go lethal while necro is just warming up.

Once you take Duress out of the equation, you might be right.  If you have no idea what you're playing against, I could possibly understand the logic of a turn 2 robot instead of waiting for turn 3 Necro.

Simply put I would look at it this way when going for a blind Tinker:

Oath: Might let them activate Oath and they might be running platz. Necro would be better in that situation but most decklists prefer the damage brigade and pack chalice/counterspells so usually Tinker is better.
Ichorid: The Ichorid player would kiss you if you passed the turn with 8+ less life.
Slaver Variants: Welder+bounce are bitches. They have about 9-10 answers to the big man. Can't live in fear of an activated Mindslaver so go for Necro.
Tezz: Tutors hurt both so I'd put my hopes in the big man.
Remora: Remora+drains+8-10pitch counters. Tinker all the way.
Fish variants: They probably run a ton of stuff to stop you from getting a lethal tendrils, but only a few bounce spells and no real draw/tutor engine. Tinker ftw.
Shops: Their whole deck is packed with cards to stop a lethal tendrils. Barring welder/duplicant they've got nothing on DSC.

[Lemnear]

Slaver Variants: Welder+bounce are bitches. They have about 9-10 answers to the big man. Can't live in fear of an activated Mindslaver so go for Necro.

If you fear the Slaver you shouldn't have a Necro in play or some opponents may think that drawing you dead with your own Necro is kinda fun...

[Marske]

If you fear the Slaver you shouldn't have a Necro in play or some opponents may think that drawing you dead with your own Necro is kinda fun...

Unless somebody drew real lucky you'll probably win before slaver hits play... I guess FlyFlySideOfFry was more afraid of Welder hitting play and welding the DSC away before you'll be able to win with the big dude. I've had more difficulty dealing with Tezzeret then with Control Slaver, mainly because Tezzeret is able to win on the spot and pack stuff like Duress where CS wants Welder to be.

Oath: Might let them activate Oath and they might be running platz. Necro would be better in that situation but most decklists prefer the damage brigade and pack chalice/counterspells so usually Tinker is better.

I Disagree, somehow putting a creature in play and helping them (hey look no orchard is needed !!) seems like a bad idea. When oath packs stuff like Chalice / Null rod / Platz you should be able to just win with your bounce (Chain, Recall, Rebuild) regarding the counters, most lists have the same amount of counters. Duress effects, FoW and maybe Drain or Negate some run Pact of Negation which is useless in stopping your threat. TPS also runs these types of disruption in the early turns.

Ichorid: The Ichorid player would kiss you if you passed the turn with 8+ less life.

All kidding aside the best chance you got vs ichorid is resolving an early twister. After sideboarding you'll pack massive hate and should be able to win.

Slaver Variants: Welder+bounce are bitches. They have about 9-10 answers to the big man. Can't live in fear of an activated Mindslaver so go for Necro.

Going combo is the best route you can take because likely they'll never be able to really stop you.

Tezz: Tutors hurt both so I'd put my hopes in the big man.

Actually a lot like Slaver with the added difficulty that you will probably need to play around Duress. Going for the big man vs a deck that can easily win in one single turn (giving them 2 turns to just find the combo they need to win means they don't need bounce) doesn't stop their game plan. Getting this over ASAP should be your main objective and this is most easily done by casting 9 spells and a Tendrils

Remora: Remora+drains+8-10pitch counters. Tinker all the way.

If and I mean IF you get a tinker to stick (on your side of the table) grabbing the big dude is your only way... With a Remora in play you basically can't storm unless you're able to resolve a Minds Desire (good luck with that) I would stay away from casting Bargain, Necro because they have a way to land on the other side of the table unless you know the road is clear.

I've tested this match up vs The Atog Lord a lot and I feel confidant enough to say this is ATM the worst match up you can possibly face...

Fish variants: They probably run a ton of stuff to stop you from getting a lethal tendrils, but only a few bounce spells and no real draw/tutor engine. Tinker ftw.

DSC is king vs fish, although some decks that run white will turn your DSC into a Farmer if you can't protect it.

Shops: Their whole deck is packed with cards to stop a lethal tendrils. Barring welder/duplicant they've got nothing on DSC.

You can go both routes because TPS is build to successfully battle under a trinisphere you should be able to combo. If you can get the big dude to stick it's also good so this comes down to board position etc. After boarding you'll have an even better chance at going combo because you'll most likely bring in extra bounce etc.

Just my 2 cents at all this.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

If you fear the Slaver you shouldn't have a Necro in play or some opponents may think that drawing you dead with your own Necro is kinda fun...

Unless somebody drew real lucky you'll probably win before slaver hits play... I guess FlyFlySideOfFry was more afraid of Welder hitting play and welding the DSC away before you'll be able to win with the big dude. I've had more difficulty dealing with Tezzeret then with Control Slaver, mainly because Tezzeret is able to win on the spot and pack stuff like Duress where CS wants Welder to be.

That basically covers it. They run more copies of welder+tutors+bounce than slaver+drain.

Oath: Might let them activate Oath and they might be running platz. Necro would be better in that situation but most decklists prefer the damage brigade and pack chalice/counterspells so usually Tinker is better.

I Disagree, somehow putting a creature in play and helping them (hey look no orchard is needed !!) seems like a bad idea. When oath packs stuff like Chalice / Null rod / Platz you should be able to just win with your bounce (Chain, Recall, Rebuild) regarding the counters, most lists have the same amount of counters. Duress effects, FoW and maybe Drain or Negate some run Pact of Negation which is useless in stopping your threat. TPS also runs these types of disruption in the early turns.

Tinker
Oath
Beat for 11
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 (they block so they #1 don't die and #2 can oath again)
Oath up 6-8
Beat for 5 you win

All kidding aside the best chance you got vs ichorid is resolving an early twister. After sideboarding you'll pack massive hate and should be able to win.

Of course 2 time walks+draw 7 cards never looked so good.

Going combo is the best route you can take because likely they'll never be able to really stop you.

Yup.

Actually a lot like Slaver with the added difficulty that you will probably need to play around Duress. Going for the big man vs a deck that can easily win in one single turn (giving them 2 turns to just find the combo they need to win means they don't need bounce) doesn't stop their game plan. Getting this over ASAP should be your main objective and this is most easily done by casting 9 spells and a Tendrils

Was assuming turn 3 necro vs turn 2 tinker where both are equally fast barring necro fizzling one way or another. Also DSC beats the planeswalker's face in hardcore if they try to win via him quickly while necro can put you in the red zone to a pair of moxen.

If and I mean IF you get a tinker to stick (on your side of the table) grabbing the big dude is your only way... With a Remora in play you basically can't storm unless you're able to resolve a Minds Desire (good luck with that) I would stay away from casting Bargain, Necro because they have a way to land on the other side of the table unless you know the road is clear.

I've tested this match up vs The Atog Lord a lot and I feel confidant enough to say this is ATM the worst match up you can possibly face...

Well put.

DSC is king vs fish, although some decks that run white will turn your DSC into a Farmer if you can't protect it.

Fish decks that run answers to DSC usually total the same amount of slots as an average control deck running tutors+singleton bounce overall except without the fast draw engine.

You can go both routes because TPS is build to successfully battle under a trinisphere you should be able to combo. If you can get the big dude to stick it's also good so this comes down to board position etc. After boarding you'll have an even better chance at going combo because you'll most likely bring in extra bounce etc.

Post-board I would go for necro because of the extra bounce and the fact that it taps/sacs to wire/smokey is just gravy. Pre-board though I'd go for DSC and against a blind deck this is likely what we're talking about.

So overall going for turn 2 tinker is better than turn 3 necro and there is only 1 matchup where I would prefer the necro when going against any deck and that would be slaver.