TPS players

[jamestosetti]

 Hey here is the deck I'm currently running. It's done pretty well. Also anyone is welcome to post there Tps list I like to play different variants in different metas.

2 volcanic island
2 undergound sea
1 tolarian academy
1 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire

1 darksteel colosus
1 timetwister
1 timewalk
1 yawgmoth's will
1 tendrils of agony
1 imperial seal
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 lotus petal
1 sol ring
1 mox saphire
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
4 dark ritual
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 necropotence
2 cabal ritual
1 ancestral recall
1 tinker
1 mystical tutor
1 yawgmoth's bargain
4 force of will
1 memory jar
1 brainstorm
1 mind's desire
1 chain of vapor
1 ponder
1 misdirection
3 duress
1 merchant scroll
1 mana vault
1 fact or fiction
1 grim tutor
1 gifts ungiven
1 intuition
2 rack and ruin

s/b
2 pithing needle
2 tormod's crypt
3 extirpate
2 slaughter pact
1 hurkyl's recall
2 hymn to tourach
3 pyroclasm

[Marske]

Besides the fact that I think the post you made doesn't really fit the criteria  of "posting in the open forum" but I'll bite and give a reply...

I've found out that having 4 basics maindeck is a real good thing, along with that comes the fact that in my current list I don't splash anything It's just U/B and it's been performing pretty well getting me a top 8 finish and all. I don't see what adding red helps you out with that can't be handled by stuff in the U/B colors. Your build is very open to Blood moon effects and to Wastelands, which may or may not be a factor in your meta but still.

Also I'm not real sure if Intuition is all that good...

[yatagirlofchaos]

Rack and Ruin is not what this deck wants to be doing. Why play this over Hurkyl's Recall? Null Rod seems relevant, but recall should handle that fine. Splashing red for pyro is legit imo, but possibly not worth it.

[Marske]

Splashing red for pyro is legit imo, but possibly not worth it.

What does pyro deal with better then Massacre or spot removal like Slaughterpact??

Besides Canonist, Cursecatcher and Teeg no other creatures really bother you and these little critters can all be dealt with by using spot removal (which Black has tons of) or if you want global sweepers stuff like Massacre, Infest and even Damnation would come to my mind before thinking about splashing red for pyro. Imo the only reason why you would ever want to splash red (using Badlands instead of Volcanics) is when you want to run ETW or Wheel of Fortune

[yatagirlofchaos]

Obviously if you were playing red you would have Wheel and possibly ETW, and then clasm is more versatile than Massacre and much easier to cast than infest/damnation. Thus the "possibly".

Also, clasm is occasionally useful vs. elves or goblins.

[Marske]

Obviously if you were playing red you would have Wheel and possibly ETW, and then clasm is more versatile than Massacre and much easier to cast than infest/damnation. Thus the "possibly".

Also, clasm is occasionally useful vs. elves or goblins.

Ok, let me try to explain..Massacre can be played for "free" most of the time (at least vs the decks you want a global sweeper of this kind)  and can be cast using a basic or 2 and a ritual without opening yourself up to wasteland same goes for Infest and Damnation for that matter. All I'm trying to say is you want to be looking at sweepers that are within your decks main colors and can be cast of basic mana before you start looking at splashing a color just for sweepers... Like I said before what creatures to you want to take out other then Canonists (Hurkyl's handles him along with chain and Smother if need be), Teeg (Smother, Slaughterpact, Massacre) or Cursecatcher(Smother Slaughterpact, Massacre)

Nothing else is really that relevant because vs Goblins you can just combo out or cast DSC and win 99% of the time. (just play around getting your ass ripped by earwig squad) and vs elves you are likely to just win by racing them (why clear the board when you are faster and have FoW) occasionally usefull cards are crap most of the time imo.

[yatagirlofchaos]

Obviously if you were playing red you would have Wheel and possibly ETW, and then clasm is more versatile than Massacre and much easier to cast than infest/damnation. Thus the "possibly".

Also, clasm is occasionally useful vs. elves or goblins.

Ok, let me try to explain..Massacre can be played for "free" most of the time (at least vs the decks you want a global sweeper of this kind)  and can be cast using a basic or 2 and a ritual without opening yourself up to wasteland same goes for Infest and Damnation for that matter. All I'm trying to say is you want to be looking at sweepers that are within your decks main colors and can be cast of basic mana before you start looking at splashing a color just for sweepers... Like I said before what creatures to you want to take out other then Canonists (Hurkyl's handles him along with chain and Smother if need be), Teeg (Smother, Slaughterpact, Massacre) or Cursecatcher(Smother Slaughterpact, Massacre)

Nothing else is really that relevant because vs Goblins you can just combo out or cast DSC and win 99% of the time. (just play around getting your ass ripped by earwig squad) and vs elves you are likely to just win by racing them (why clear the board when you are faster and have FoW) occasionally usefull cards are crap most of the time imo.

Ok, let me try to explain...I'm not fucking stupid; I was just saying that clasm if not the worst thing you can play in that slot. Massacre is not an answer to Teeg (lol). Neither is Damnation. Infest can be diffucult to cast (especially without opening yourself to wasteland) and I would not be eager to use a Ritual to cast infest, especially if I am using it to kill teeg or cannonist so I can combo off.

You are definetly underestimating Elves and possibly goblins as well. TPS is not that fast, and if you don't draw FoW then you have no disrupting for either. On the draw this is an issue, since elves can easily combo on turn 2 or 3.

Let me clarify; I'm not saying that you should play Pyroclasm (or even that I would). I'm just saying it *could* be an option and that being a douche bag doesn't make you right.

[Marske]

Ok, let me try to explain...I'm not fucking stupid;I was just saying that clasm if not the worst thing you can play in that slot. 

No need to be so touchy I never insinuated that you where "fucking stupid"... I was just trying to get my point across. Sure pyro isn't the worst thing you could play but it isn't the best either.

Massacre is not an answer to Teeg (lol). Neither is Damnation.[

Ok smartass, I said SPOT removal and massacre or infest are all great vs the decks you want it against and probably better then running Pyro because you don't have issues with a shaky manabase.  You are correct about Massacre and Damnation doing nothing vs Teeg (got a little bit overeager to prove my point I guess missing the 4cmc part a bit.)

Infest can be diffucult to cast (especially without opening yourself to wasteland)

Pardon me are you "fucking stupid" ? (there now I did call you stupid.) infest doesn't open you up to wastelands... it can be cast using a swamp + Dark Rit, it's not the best choice but when going for a "global" sweeper it's not that bad either and it doesn't even require an extra splash.  Sure with the decklist posted above you are opening yourself up but like I said before it's very light on basic lands and should probably up that count. All I'm trying to say is if you're looking for global sweepers start looking in black first before splashing a color just to sweep the board.

I would not be eager to use a Ritual to cast infest, especially if I am using it to kill teeg or cannonist so I can combo off.

I totally agree with you, but that's what I was trying to say, when you want to kill teeg or canonist spot removal like slaughter pact is way better then anything else, when trying to kill massive amounts of critters (ETW tokens, Elves, whatever) if at all necessary black has pretty good boardsweepers.

Marius, you know this isn't appropriate.  -DA

[BruiZar]

Why would you run bad cards over a third color splash? It's not like vintage can't support 3 colors..

Infest is horrible and so is damnation. Slaughter Pact is good though (Gets rid of Magus of the Moon). I don't think I'd run Massacre right now, because chances are, the only time your facing an opponent with plains is when Teeg is staring at you.

[yatagirlofchaos]

You agree that using at rit to play a sweeper is not desirable, and if you're not doing that than you have to fetch out both basic swamps (assuming a decent list) to not open yourself to waste. While reasonable, that is a bit ambitious. So some portion of the time your 2nd source of black will be a U-Sea, which is equally as vulnerable to waste as a Badlands. The differance between 2 and 3 mana is fairly relevant vs decks with wastes and chalice/rod

Explaining that you should look for on color cards before considering splashes was basically calling me fucking stupid.

I think we pretty much agree from here on, so there.

[Marske]

Why would you run bad cards over a third color splash? It's not like vintage can't support 3 colors..

I wouldn't.... I don't run any global sweepers in my TPS list.. I just said IF you are looking for something I would try to keep it on color as much as possible. If you take a look at the board I ran into the top 8 in the Almelo tournament you'll see I've not included any sweeper what so ever.

Decklist + sideboard for reference can be found here.

Infest is horrible and so is damnation. Slaughter Pact is good though (Gets rid of Magus of the Moon). I don't think I'd run Massacre right now, because chances are, the only time your facing an opponent with plains is when Teeg is staring at you.

Agreed, they are all horrible but at this time I don't really see the need for such global sweepers. Stuff like Slaughterpact and Smother are great at letting you combo when Teeg or Canonist is out. Along with stuff like Chain I've not had any trouble going combo.

Edit:

Explaining that you should look for on color cards before considering splashes was basically calling me fucking stupid.

That was not really my intention my apologies, I was only trying to get my opinion across that TPS lists benefit from staying with 2 colors whenever possible.

You agree that using at rit to play a sweeper is not desirable, and if you're not doing that than you have to fetch out both basic swamps (assuming a decent list) to not open yourself to waste. While reasonable, that is a bit ambitious.

It is and it's a very bad idea imo. Like I said in this post I don't think you really need board sweepers.

[yatagirlofchaos]

sigh

cool

[Marske]

sigh

cool

I couldn't help it.. what's cool?! With this reply being off topic as is, I'm glad some discussion about TPS is finally reaching the open boards... Currently my board looks a bit different from the board I played during the tournament but the maindeck is still the same.  It's great to see so many different takes on the deck.

[yatagirlofchaos]

Meh, just felt like a waste of time after all was said and done. Heh.

[the boogie man]

sigh

cool

What are you, 13?

I agree that something like slaughter pact or smother would be good, much better than a global sweeper.What is even better,  though, is bounce + thoughtseize. the only creatures I can think of that warrant spot removal are magus of the moon and maybe cannonist. Or even aven mindscensor in the most dire of circumstances. Everything else can be taken care of by echoing truth, chain of vapor, hurkyls, or discard/counter. I agree that you should stay 2--color, because the third color seems unnecessary. Not necessarily fucking stupid, but unwise.

[The Atog Lord]

Yata, please try to include at least  a minimal amount of content when you create a new post. Thank you.

[yatagirlofchaos]

My bad about that last post. I was just a tad exasperated after that little dialogue. Basically, like I ORIGINALLY said, if a board sweeper was necessary Pyroclasm would be better than Infest. Massacre is okay in theory, but it seems like most decks with white would have teeg, making it a no-go. I agree that Smother, Slaughter Pact, or even Darkblast would be a better choice at the moment.

[XxtSundaybxX]

I played TPS very consitantly. I actually won a 60 man tourney for a lotus with the deck and Ive top 8d numerous times as well. That being said, I didnt play any "board sweepers". The most common threats you will need to deal with will be meddling mage or cannonist. For these  you have chain in game 1 and game 2, I always had goyf and thrashing wumpus. I never had a problem taking down creature decks.

[jamestosetti]

Very good feedback. I've played Tps since Menendian posted it in an article. Everything you guys said was true to an extent. Once tezzeret came out I think the list could use a change such as this.The only difference is I would use a rebuild in the place of a pyroclasm in the s/b. I've played every list and this list is not set in stone but I will play it until it does not work. Typically you can get away with 3 duress or 2 thoughtseize and 2 duress but it always comes down to needing the duresses over thoughtseize. A card like wheel of fortune is not what is needed once you know how to play the deck. That is only for the kill or on turn 1. A s/b like I'm using seems extremely good because once you've played this deck a million times you become pretty good with it and you'll be begging to get rid of the massacres and basic lands from the s/b. Rack and ruin main has proven exeptional with all the tezzeret and and artifact control stuff out there. And intuition, I think I've won every game I've cast that spell in. As for 4 basic lands being needed I disagree right now. What you do is not crack them until you've got something ready to go. This is a very fast deck. And when you fear the wasteland you grab 1 basic land and it's 90 percent of the time all you need to continue what you were going to execute. Like I said this is what I'm using and using it successfully and this posting is to show your tps decklist to generate ideas and promote the play of this deck.

[Marske]

@Jamestosetti,
Then we will have to agree to disagree on the basic land count I guess... I faced 2 tezzeret decks during the tournament I mentionend earlier and have been playing against the deck (and with TPS) for some time now having good results. I have some questions for you and I hope you can answer them for me and some additional feedback.

A s/b like I'm using seems extremely good because once you've played this deck a million times you become pretty good with it and you'll be begging to get rid of the massacres and basic lands

Obviously practice makes perfect... this is true with most decks. You must understand that the basic lands in the board are there for a reason. As you can see in the list I linked earlier I didn't run them myself during that event but it's very likely possible they will be put back into the board.

Rack and ruin main has proven exeptional with all the tezzeret and and artifact control stuff out there.

What artifacts do you want to kill ? Time vault / key ? When they hit play you basically lost because you are trying to play the "control" when actually you are the "beatdown" (if you don't know what I'm saying look for the article "who's the beatdown" by MIke Flores on SCG) If you're killing of Moxen with R&R it's even more useless because you should be focussing on getting your gameplan through not stopping the opponent. Remember Force of Will is most powerfull when played on the offence which is true for most of the deck, although current Tezzeret lists try to force you into trying to stop them (AKA you being control)

As for 4 basic lands being needed I disagree right now. What you do is not crack them until you've got something ready to go.

If you wait to crack your fetches until you really need them you will lose to decks packing stuff like Stifle, Trickbind and not to mention a Magus, Blood moon hitting play. Having lots of basics is what made it possible for TPS to play vs 4x 3sphere.dec so why would you risk running an "instable manabase"

Like I said this is what I'm using and using it successfully and this posting is to show your tps decklist to generate ideas and promote the play of this deck.

I'm a bit confused (mainly because your initial start of this thread didn't say why you started it) so I assumed you wanted feedback on your list, which you obviously don't want. But if your goal was to get the discussion started on TPS you did it I guess.  Could you explain to me what  the reason behind the start of this thread is before I assume something falls again?

[Frenger]

Here is a really interesting list by Célien Berthod that has done well in the french metagame, making the top 8 at the Bazaar of Moxen 2.

        1 Swamp
        2 Flooded Strand
        2 Island
        4 Polluted Delta
        4 Underground Sea
        1 Darksteel Colossus
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Necropotence
        1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Brainstorm
        1 Chain of Vapor
        1 Gifts Ungiven
        1 Hurkyl's Recall
        1 Misdirection
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        2 Cabal Ritual
        4 Dark Ritual
        4 Force of Will
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Ponder
        1 Time Walk
        1 Timetwister
        1 Tinker
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        2 Careful Study
        2 Tendrils of Agony
        4 Duress
        4 Serum Visions
SB:  1 Massacre
SB:  2 Engineered Explosives
SB:  2 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  3 Tombstalker
SB:  4 Yixlid Jailer
SB:  1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  1 Swamp
SB:  1 Rebuild

He uses Serum Visions and Careful Study to replace Brainstorm post restriction, which is a questionable choice to me. He has also cut off color moxen in favor of more business spells. Paraphrasing his reasoning (which can be found in french here: http://solomoxen.com/forum/index.php?topic=7927.0 )

"After a lot of testing, Serum Visions appeared to be the best substitute for the role of search/library manipulation. One advantage it has over Ponder is that if you see mana that you don't want, by putting it on the bottom of your deck, you have a smaller chance of drawing mana than if you shuffled your deck with Ponder... As a rule of thumb, Ponder is still better. However Serum Visions is excellent at setting up the next turn. The card has been satisfactory to this day."

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I'm glad to see Serum Visions get recognised for it's effectiveness as a Brainstorm substitute. My question is how good is Careful Study? Seems to me that Opt would be more effective than a card disadvantage spell. At the very least if not Opt you could run something bigger like Impulse, Intuition, or Thirst for Knowledge.

Edit: the bigger options would require off-color moxen though obviously. What is his reasoning for not running the moxen?

Edit#2: also with the inclusion of all the moxen you could justify Repeal as storm+mana+cantrip+defence.

[Stormanimagus]

I'm glad to see Serum Visions get recognised for it's effectiveness as a Brainstorm substitute. My question is how good is Careful Study? Seems to me that Opt would be more effective than a card disadvantage spell. At the very least if not Opt you could run something bigger like Impulse, Intuition, or Thirst for Knowledge.

Edit: the bigger options would require off-color moxen though obviously. What is his reasoning for not running the moxen?

Edit#2: also with the inclusion of all the moxen you could justify Repeal as storm+mana+cantrip+defence.

I don't think TPS needs Serum Visions when it has so many other card drawing options. FoF and Gifts are both really nice restricted Card Drawing cards and Imperial Seal + Grim Tutor are nice 1-of Tutors in the deck in addition to the rest of the tutor package.

I mean, I really like something along the lines of Menendian's List from the Fall with some slight modifications in the SB and the inclusion of Inkwell Leviathan MD instead of Darksteel Colossus.

Here's my most recent list:

TPS

Land (12):
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (11):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
5 Moxen
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Memory Jar

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Enchantments (2):
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain

Instants (19):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (15):
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Ponder
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

SB
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Hurkyl’s Recall
3 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Tarmogoyf

[Frenger]

I'm glad to see Serum Visions get recognised for it's effectiveness as a Brainstorm substitute. My question is how good is Careful Study? Seems to me that Opt would be more effective than a card disadvantage spell. At the very least if not Opt you could run something bigger like Impulse, Intuition, or Thirst for Knowledge.

Edit: the bigger options would require off-color moxen though obviously. What is his reasoning for not running the moxen?

Edit#2: also with the inclusion of all the moxen you could justify Repeal as storm+mana+cantrip+defence.

I have no experience with the list, but the decks creator uses careful study to fuel threshed Cabal Rituals and eventually Yawgs Will. I don't like TfK, especially without a full set of moxen. I tried Intuition in a different build, was was unimpressed. Impulse is possible, but again, worsened by the fact that you only have two moxen, making it harder to cast turn one than Serum Visions.

He originally cut the Moxen and replaced them with Ponders pre restriction. He didn't explain why he left them out after ponder was restricted, but I assume his decks played similarly, just with Serum Visions and Careful Study replacing the 3 brainstorm and 3 ponder that got cut. 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I'm glad to see Serum Visions get recognised for it's effectiveness as a Brainstorm substitute. My question is how good is Careful Study? Seems to me that Opt would be more effective than a card disadvantage spell. At the very least if not Opt you could run something bigger like Impulse, Intuition, or Thirst for Knowledge.

Edit: the bigger options would require off-color moxen though obviously. What is his reasoning for not running the moxen?

Edit#2: also with the inclusion of all the moxen you could justify Repeal as storm+mana+cantrip+defence.

I have no experience with the list, but the decks creator uses careful study to fuel threshed Cabal Rituals and eventually Yawgs Will. I don't like TfK, especially without a full set of moxen. I tried Intuition in a different build, was was unimpressed. Impulse is possible, but again, worsened by the fact that you only have two moxen, making it harder to cast turn one than Serum Visions.

He originally cut the Moxen and replaced them with Ponders pre restriction. He didn't explain why he left them out after ponder was restricted, but I assume his decks played similarly, just with Serum Visions and Careful Study replacing the 3 brainstorm and 3 ponder that got cut. 

Yeah that is why I edited in that you'd need the moxen in my original post I didn't realise he wasn't running them. I'd be interested to know why he decided off-color moxen weren't effective enough to make his cut.

[TheRock]

I think TPS could use Serum Visions in the place of a few of its weaker cards, but I don't know how effective that would be outside of being a 1-of.  I will say this though - I've wanted to cut Mind's Desire and yet still keep my blue card count 18-19 for the longest time and while I currently run an extra artifact bounce spell, I probably wouldn't do that in a bigger tournament.  It's definitely not bad at finding a Duress/FoW or finding either a tutor or a major combo piece to be able to go off with.

I really don't like Extirpate in this format unless your metagame is absolutely overrun by Accumulated Knowledge.  It just doesn't do enough against Ichorid to merit any considerable number of slots, and I've found that most control and Tezz players don't give a hoot if you target their draw spells because they don't like them all that much anyway.  If you feel that you don't need that much Ichorid hate in your sideboard, then I would personally run something entirely different in its place or run Pithing Needle (which is still very relevant against Ichorid and is pretty much the only defensive spell I would ever play against Tezz).  I tend to see this card all over the place in TPS sideboards, and I really think that it's just a "Danger of Cool Things" card that doesn't fit with what the deck is trying to do.

[Diakonov]

I've been a TPS player for over two years now, and my take is that it is a somewhat suboptimal archetype at the moment.  Hopefully that doesn't upset anybody.  I have played TPS more than any other deck and have always liked it in the past, just to make it clear that I have nothing against the deck itself. 

The loss of Brainstorm was devastating.  Now, I know that most decks could claim the same, but TPS in particular lost a huge degree of consistency that is imperative for the deck to function properly.  There were many games in the past where, while combo-ing out, you could prevent a draw 7 fizzle by effectively turning it into a draw 10 w/ Brainstorm.  Those days are past, and many a storm count has walked away hanging its head in shame.

I'm not saying that the deck is bad, just that it needs more real gas to be Tier 1 again.  As it stands, Brainstorms have been replaced by a more defined "set-up" strategy using tutors, albeit at the cost of precious tempo, in a format where a drain deck can win just as quickly with a Vault-Key set-up.  The deck needs to operate on speed again to be able to compete fully, and elements such as Grim Tutor are a sluggish cost for consistency.  My suggestion is to experiment with more mana-efficient draw spells (a.k.a. "bombs").

Before I set the deck down about a month ago, I was testing the red splash specifically for Wheel of Fortune with fairly decent results.  I also considered Meditate, which was actually not all that bad; it gave you more reliability to complete a run for Tendrils.  I briefly tested Infernal Contract, but the triple black was too hard to come by.

The problem with cards like Serum Visions in this deck is that, frankly, you could draw anything off the top of your deck, when generally you specifically want gas or mana.  As probabilities go, the more cards you draw in one shot, the greater likelihood that you will have an even distribution of mana & gas.  And yes, I do think it is worth the drawback of your opponent occasionally getting a couple extra cards.  It is a price worth paying to help ensure you won't burnout mid-storm.

[jamestosetti]

After some thought I've come up with 2 ideas. The unrestriction of mind's desire or the restriction of mana drain.I don't think any of us want drain restricted becuse it gives good competition and is fun to play. I don't think tps has the necessary tools it needs to top 8 a large scale tournament right now. There is unreal amount of hate readily available and extremely playable in the metagame to combat 4 mind's desires in a deck. You could restrict tendril's. We could use lotus blooms. People want the craziest most insane vintage metagame possible while staying balanced. I mean at a cost of 6 with spells like daze, mana drain, fow, duress, stifle, extirpate, spheres and trinisphere, all the 2/2 hate creatures, pyrostatic pillar I think it makes sense to unrestrict mind's desire.There are a pretty good amount of people who like storm and it constantly gets cards printed to hose it instead of help it. It was dominent at first because there were not enough other types of decks such as tezzeret. With drain decks being so dominent and with relic of progenitus able to get around chalice of the void on ichorid I think the next big vintage tournament will show drain decks are very dominent but I don't think drain is the problem but the restriction of Mind's desire is the problem. you would think using lotus blooms to help cast it would make it take a little longer to make a lethal storm so ichorid would have a good race against it.

Markse asked why I started this thread and it's to talk about the archetype in general and to share your decklist.I was wanting to see what changes people have made to the list to keep it up with the metagame. Also it would be great for people to share their s/b plans in certain matchups. I've got some s/b ideas for you all to look at. Those rack and ruins were there to mainly kill any artifacts whatsoever that were giving my opponent the ability to cast spells or get ahead of me in the race. I t was working pretty well for a while in mws play but I've already stopped using the rack and ruins but I'm going to keep the Intuition in there because it has proven valuable. The one guy said tps seems to be a suboptimal archetype right now and I think I would agree. Thats another reason I started this thread to see If we can make some improvements on the deck as a whole to make it a bigger player in the metagame. Markse those slaughter pacts and hymns are there because I saw them in your s/b list so I'm glad you decided to post here.

possible s/b's

2 pithing needle
2 tormod's crypt
3 extirpate
2 slaughter pact
2 hymn to tourach
1 massacre
2 phyrexian negator
1 bitterblossom

another s/b
2 pithing needle
3 tormods crypt
1 bitterblossom
1 bayou  in main and 1 tropical isand in s/b
3 tarmogoyfs
2 oxidize
2 extirpate
1 leyline of the void

Posts merged.
-Godder

[Marske]

@jamestosetti,
Little side note my handle is spelled marske instead of markse not to nag about it but it may get confusing when you know my real name etc

The one guy said tps seems to be a suboptimal archetype right now and I think I would agree.

I disagree, I've piloted TPS in the Dutch meta and it's a pretty strong competitor, It can outplay drain decks any day of the week if played right. Sure you can have the insane turn 1 time vault / key of a lotus, mox, land with counterbackup loss but come on that's a god hand anyway. Plus it also has a ok match up to random_Jank.dec which is also great to have in a diverse meta.

Markse those slaughter pacts and hymns are there because I saw them in your s/b list so I'm glad you decided to post here.

Well thank you, I take this as a compliment because I spend a lot of time creating the board I used. I did like the Shriekmaw's better then the Slaughter Pacts (because it can also beat) My current board is a bit different from the one I used there I'm not going to share it at this time but if you want to discuss boarding a bit more feel free to PM me about it.

Regarding the unrestriction of Minds Desire... I think this thread shouldn't focus on these kinda things and we should talk about the tools we do have to combat the rest.

[TheRock]

If Mind's Desire was unrestricted, then I wouldn't care in the slightest.  It's not like I love going Tinker -> Jar against decks packing counters and other obviously dangerous scenarios, but without Brainstorm and Ponder around, getting 4UU is a true difficulty (on top of sometimes getting to Desire for 5 and then completely whiffing because there is no bomb).

However, finding decent blue cards to replace it has been the challenge. 

After reading these discussions, I have definitely jumped on the Slaughter Pact bandwagon because I frankly just like the card so much more than Massacre and it only took me a little bit of testing to figure that out.