[Premium Article] Notes on NuVintage and SCG $5K Breakdown

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17678_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Notes_on_NuVintage_and_a_Breakdown_of_the_SCG_Legacy_5K.html

Editor's Blurb:

With Vintage under the spotlight thanks to some interesting restrictions, Stephen Menendian examines the fallout. He also takes a long look at the results from the recent StarCityGames.com $5000 Legacy Open

The strategic content is most about Legacy.    The Vintage part is mostly commentary and analysis of Tom LaPille's DCI statement, and what it means for the future of Vintage. 

[JACO]

I'm all for the unrestriction of most cards, but unrestricted Demonic Consulation is a very bad idea.

[Smmenen]

For reference:

Interestingly, the restricted list is, now more than ever, blue. Blue has more restricted cards than all of the other colors combined:

Blue (16):
* Ancestral Recall
* Time Walk
* Timetwister
* Mind’s Desire
* Tinker
* Windfall
* Gifts Ungiven
* Fact Or Fiction
* Brainstorm
* Gush
* Ponder
* Mystical Tutor
* Merchant Scroll
* Frantic Search
* Thirst For Knowledge
* Flash

Black (7):
* Yawgmoth’s Will
* Yawgmoth’s Bargain
* Necropotence
* Demonic Tutor
* Vampiric Tutor
* Imperial Seal
* Demonic Consultation

Red (2):
* Burning Wish
* Wheel Of Fortune

Green (3):
* Fastbond
* Channel
* Regrowth

White (1):
* Balance

Given the path that they’ve taken, of restricting more Blue cards to deal with Drain dominance rather than unrestrict certain Blue spells, such as Gush and Flash, the format is going to look increasingly normal if you aren’t playing a Blue deck. Aside from Blue draw spells, everything else, in particular lower tier Tutors and mana accelerants that aren’t being abused by Drain decks, are being unrestricted.

That means that the older ways of looking at the restricted list: tutors, acceleration, sources of card advantage, and so on, is wrong and antiquated.

If you are a mana accelerant or a tutor, but you aren't used by blue, you are unrestricted or likely unrestrictable. But if you are abused by a Force of Will deck, you are still going to be restricted. That explains Chrome Mox, Grim Monolith, Mox Diamond, Dark Ritual, Mishra’s Workshop, and so on. That also explains why Bazaar of Baghdad is unrestricted, but Library of Alexandria is not. It explains why Crop Rotation, Enlightened Tutor, and Entomb can be unrestricted, but Merchant Scroll is not. People used to focus on comparing existing cards with cards on the restricted list as a reason to restrict, or not. That point of comparison is no longer valid.

As I said, the restricted list is now, more than ever, Blue, or about cards that Blue decks abuse.

Four of the restricted Black spells are specifically spells that are abused by Drain decks (Demonic Tutor, Vampric Tutor, Imperial Seal, and Yawgmoth’s Will. Two of the remaining three are specifically spells abused by Dark Ritual decks. The remaining restricted Black spell is Demonic Consultation.

For the reasons I just described, I suspect, for the first time ever, that Demonic Consultation might be a good candidate for unrestriction. The ‘Blue’ Mana Drain deck is a deck of restricted cards: Ancestral Recall, Tinker, Yawgmoth’s Will, Time Vault, etc. Demonic Consultation would have no place in such a deck (although Painter could perhaps use it), it would not contribute to the problem of helping the Drain Time Vault/Yawg Will/Tinker decks. The other ‘blue deck’, Dark Ritual based storm combo, like TPS, which uses most of the restricted blue spells would not be able to abuse Consult for the same reason.

The Dark Ritual decks that don’t run Force of Will, like Ad Nauseam or GWSx, might be able to use Consult, but that wouldn’t help either the "Force of Will" decks, to use the DCI’s framework, or "Drain decks."

On the other hand, Consult could help Dark Rituals, Shops, and Bazaar decks, precisely those archetypes that the DCI is trying to help ‘catch up,’ as Tom put it. It would also potentially help aggro decks which use Null Rod and fast disruption like Duress.

Those are questions for another day. For now, I think we have a much clearer vision of the restricted list, what it’s about and what we can expect from the DCI going forward.

[oneofchaos]

I'm all for the unrestriction of most cards, but unrestricted Demonic Consulation is a very bad idea.

Ya, I thought the point was to convince more people to play the format.  How is it fair we speed up combo decks if control decks don't have the tools to defend themselves from a more frequent turn 1 kill?

[M.Solymossy]

Yea, I would orgasm right here if they unrestricted Consultation.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Since when is a one mana Demonic Tutor ever a good idea to unrestrict? I fail to see how this does anything but kill everything except turn 1 win decks. :/

How can you be opposed to unrestricting Channel and then turn around to advocate something 100x more busted?

[Troy_Costisick]

Since when is a one mana Demonic Tutor ever a good idea to unrestrict? I fail to see how this does anything but kill everything except turn 1 win decks. :/

How can you be opposed to unrestricting Channel and then turn around to advocate something 100x more busted?

Does everything you post have to be in hyperbole?  Looking through your post history is a trip through the extreme.  D-Consultation 100x's better than Channel?  Come on.  There's plenty of risk in playing that card just as there is in Channel.  And besides, if you read Stephen's article closely, he wasn't even discussing the brokeness of the card, just the engines it best interacts with.  Do you think that was an accident?  Do you think he might have a point to make there?  Considering all that is very important in light of Tom's article on magicthegathering.com.  There is a much broader context you ought to take into account rather than just viscerally reacting to something in a knee jerk sort of way.  I'm not defending the idea of DC coming off the B/R list mainly because, A) this is the wrong forum for that sort of thing, and B) we just had a batch of unrestrictions.  Need to let that play out for a bit.  Regardless though, your statement is absurd and extreme in a way that betrays the fact you put little thought into what Stephen wrote.

[oneofchaos]

I understood what Steve meant when he said how he doesn't play nicely in the engines that are dominating and it would allow the other engines to catch up.  But seriously now, you are talking about a single mana demonic tutor in ad nauseum or belcher.  I have done SOOO much work in trying to convince people that Vintage was not a turn one kill format.  Please don't undo it all for me.  It's hard enough when people are quitting because they don't get to take turns.  If you unrestrict demonic consultation, I think it would be fair to unrestrict brainstorm, ponder, and gush.  Your going to make combo better, but not give control the tools it needs to fight it at all?  We aren't even technically in the new meta yet, save your new unrestriction talk for after a month or so of the new metagame.

edit: speculating is fun, but when it turns out that nothing you predicted is true you just wasted your time.

[2nd_lawl]

What do you make of the omission of Null Rod in the article as a "pillar"?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Since when is a one mana Demonic Tutor ever a good idea to unrestrict? I fail to see how this does anything but kill everything except turn 1 win decks. :/

How can you be opposed to unrestricting Channel and then turn around to advocate something 100x more busted?

Does everything you post have to be in hyperbole?  Looking through your post history is a trip through the extreme.  D-Consultation 100x's better than Channel?  Come on.  There's plenty of risk in playing that card just as there is in Channel.  And besides, if you read Stephen's article closely, he wasn't even discussing the brokeness of the card, just the engines it best interacts with.  Do you think that was an accident?  Do you think he might have a point to make there?  Considering all that is very important in light of Tom's article on magicthegathering.com.  There is a much broader context you ought to take into account rather than just viscerally reacting to something in a knee jerk sort of way.  I'm not defending the idea of DC coming off the B/R list mainly because, A) this is the wrong forum for that sort of thing, and B) we just had a batch of unrestrictions.  Need to let that play out for a bit.  Regardless though, your statement is absurd and extreme in a way that betrays the fact you put little thought into what Stephen wrote.

I understand what he said perfectly well, my point being what exactly do we accomplish by changing to the "turn 1 win" format that everyone has been fighting to keep vintage from becoming labeled as? Unless he was using it as an arbitrary example (aka an accident like you put it) then it was a well thought out card choice that he honestly thinks should come off. Channel is definitely much worse (as in bad not good) than Consultation. Maybe you have some kind of mathematical formula that can calculate exactly how many times better Consult is than Channel. Unfortunately I don't, so I have to rely on any random number that makes my point. What if I had said 2? 1000? Saying there is a risk in playing both cards is like saying that Ancestral and Concentrate both draw cards. Consulatation is on-color, requires no strange ass vulnerable combo pieces like Mirror or Belcher, and is any mana+a win condition in 1 card. Channel is off-color, forces bad cards to make it playable, and can only function as colorless mana. To quote the Shamwow guy, "I don't know, it sells itself."

If you don't like my use of hyperbole don't read my posts, its that simple. There is no need to insult me and say I put no thought in what I say. If I spoke/typed broken English would you be insulting that instead of focusing on my point? "Does everything have to be broken English?" Talk about rude, you didn't even adress my point...

What do you make of the omission of Null Rod in the article as a "pillar"?

I don't think they understand enough about Vintage. Null Rod may have been omitable (some decks used to run Chalice instead, ah the good old days) before Vault hit the scene but now it is definitely a pillar.

[JACO]

What do you make of the omission of Null Rod in the article as a "pillar"?

Because Null Rod is actually Fool's Gold in the face of a properly built deck. It is no more of a "pillar" of the format than Chalice of the Void or Smokestack.

[Diakonov]

Since when is a one mana Demonic Tutor ever a good idea to unrestrict? I fail to see how this does anything but kill everything except turn 1 win decks. :/

How can you be opposed to unrestricting Channel and then turn around to advocate something 100x more busted?

Does everything you post have to be in hyperbole?  Looking through your post history is a trip through the extreme.  D-Consultation 100x's better than Channel?  Come on.  There's plenty of risk in playing that card just as there is in Channel.  And besides, if you read Stephen's article closely, he wasn't even discussing the brokeness of the card, just the engines it best interacts with.  Do you think that was an accident?  Do you think he might have a point to make there?  Considering all that is very important in light of Tom's article on magicthegathering.com.  There is a much broader context you ought to take into account rather than just viscerally reacting to something in a knee jerk sort of way.  I'm not defending the idea of DC coming off the B/R list mainly because, A) this is the wrong forum for that sort of thing, and B) we just had a batch of unrestrictions.  Need to let that play out for a bit.  Regardless though, your statement is absurd and extreme in a way that betrays the fact you put little thought into what Stephen wrote.

I understand what he said perfectly well, my point being what exactly do we accomplish by changing to the "turn 1 win" format that everyone has been fighting to keep vintage from becoming labeled as? Unless he was using it as an arbitrary example (aka an accident like you put it) then it was a well thought out card choice that he honestly thinks should come off. Channel is definitely much worse (as in bad not good) than Consultation. Maybe you have some kind of mathematical formula that can calculate exactly how many times better Consult is than Channel. Unfortunately I don't, so I have to rely on any random number that makes my point. What if I had said 2? 1000? Saying there is a risk in playing both cards is like saying that Ancestral and Concentrate both draw cards. Consulatation is on-color, requires no strange ass vulnerable combo pieces like Mirror or Belcher, and is any mana+a win condition in 1 card. Channel is off-color, forces bad cards to make it playable, and can only function as colorless mana. To quote the Shamwow guy, "I don't know, it sells itself."

If you don't like my use of hyperbole don't read my posts, its that simple. There is no need to insult me and say I put no thought in what I say. If I spoke/typed broken English would you be insulting that instead of focusing on my point? "Does everything have to be broken English?" Talk about rude, you didn't even adress my point...

What do you make of the omission of Null Rod in the article as a "pillar"?

I don't think they understand enough about Vintage. Null Rod may have been omitable (some decks used to run Chalice instead, ah the good old days) before Vault hit the scene but now it is definitely a pillar.

To be fair, both cards would enable turn 1 decks.  Consult would be fantastic in Ad Naus, but only good in others.  Channel would be fantastic in Belcher.  I agree that Consult is probably a better card, but I think Troy was trying to say that your post was far more extreme than it needed to be.  By reacting extremely in that manner, and acting as though your point is so obvious, you are attempting to make the person in reference look like an idiot.  A more appropriate response would have been, "It seems to me that Consult is stronger than Channel, so why didn't you advocate Channel's unrestriction?"

Anyway, like Troy said, that topic of discussion isn't allowed in Open.  This is why.

I agree that Null Rod may be reaching the point of being considered a pillar.  I wouldn't say so if the pillars stopped at Rit, Workshop, Bazaar, and Force, but as long as Drain is being included, Rod should be as well.  I still feel skeptical on the whole terminology of "pillar" to begin with, since there are no real parameters to that definition.  

[Eastman]

Troy and Flyside, you're already over the flaming line, and Diakanov please don't jump in fires!  Let's keep this conversation impersonal please.

[Methuselahn]

For the reasons I just described, I suspect, for the first time ever, that Demonic Consultation might be a good candidate for unrestriction.

<rolls over in grave>

[Smmenen]

My analysis with Channel showed nearly a 40%+ turn one goldfish with unrestricted Channel.

Demonic Consultation would not come close to producing goldfishes that fast.    Would it help out Ritual decks?  Of course.   That's the idea.  

But it would also be awesome in Shop decks as well.  

The main point I was making is this:

The restricted list is now, more than ever, about monitoring blue.

The DCI's framework: Force of Will v. everything else, ensures that DCI policy is about helping keep Force of Will decks in check.  

The appearance of the restricted list now confirms this.    It's about blue v. everything else.     There are now more blue spells than any other color combined (16 to 13), and about half of the non-blue cards are restricted because of their abuse in blue.    

As I said above: if you aren't playing a Force of Will deck, your deck is basically full of four-ofs, and probably much more closely resembles a 'real' deck than the restricted list or a 'highlander' deck.   But if you are playing a Force of Will deck, particularly if it is a Drain based Force of Will deck or a Dark Ritual deck, your deck will increasingly look highlanderish.

The old way of looking at the restricted list, by function, is clearly wrong.    The restricted list today is pretty much exclusively about two things:

1) Keeping the Drain (Force of Will) deck in check
2) Preventing decks that don't give you a turn

Everything else is pretty much fair game, and unrestrictable if it serves (1) without helping (2).

[Grand Inquisitor]

Maybe this is a nitpick, but I don't think so:

That means that the older ways of looking at the restricted list: tutors, acceleration, sources of card advantage, and so on, is wrong and antiquated.

The restricted list today is pretty much exclusively about two things:

1) Keeping the Drain (Force of Will) deck in check

Isn't the difference here really nuance?  The best tutors and card advantage cards are blue (and to a lesser extent black).  This doesn't make the restricted list any less about tutors and mana acceleration, it shows that crop rotation et al aren't that good (and happen to not be blue).

The other governing dynamic is, like you say, Force of Will.  If you can both tutor, draw or accelerate AND be used in a pinch to prevent a game breaking spell by pitching, your value increases.  If anything, this is the point to be made, not that the restricted list is suddenly not what we thought it was.

[Smmenen]

Maybe this is a nitpick, but I don't think so:

That means that the older ways of looking at the restricted list: tutors, acceleration, sources of card advantage, and so on, is wrong and antiquated.

The restricted list today is pretty much exclusively about two things:

1) Keeping the Drain (Force of Will) deck in check

Isn't the difference here really nuance?  The best tutors and card advantage cards are blue (and to a lesser extent black).  This doesn't make the restricted list any less about tutors and mana acceleration, it shows that crop rotation et al aren't that good (and happen to not be blue).

The other governing dynamic is, like you say, Force of Will.  If you can both tutor, draw or accelerate AND be used in a pinch to prevent a game breaking spell by pitching, your value increases.  If anything, this is the point to be made, not that the restricted list is suddenly not what we thought it was.

I don't think there has ever been a single way of looking at the restricted list.   But certainly people have gotten hung up on looking at it from the point of view of tutors, acceleration, and draw engines.   Some people view the restricted list as a repository for the hall of infamy, which I describe in the article.

I am presenting a different frame.   I perhaps went too far in saying that the other frame is wrong, but it's certainly less cogent, especially since the DCI clearly set out its operational framework for the restricted list (i.e. balancing Force v. other three pillars).   Lest we think that framing is mere nuance, the way you present information actually has the effect of creating information.

Again, this is more fully explicated:

Interestingly, the restricted list is, now more than ever, blue. Blue has more restricted cards than all of the other colors combined:

Blue (16):
* Ancestral Recall
* Time Walk
* Timetwister
* Mind’s Desire
* Tinker
* Windfall
* Gifts Ungiven
* Fact Or Fiction
* Brainstorm
* Gush
* Ponder
* Mystical Tutor
* Merchant Scroll
* Frantic Search
* Thirst For Knowledge
* Flash

Black (7):
* Yawgmoth’s Will
* Yawgmoth’s Bargain
* Necropotence
* Demonic Tutor
* Vampiric Tutor
* Imperial Seal
* Demonic Consultation

Red (2):
* Burning Wish
* Wheel Of Fortune

Green (3):
* Fastbond
* Channel
* Regrowth

White (1):
* Balance

Given the path that they’ve taken, of restricting more Blue cards to deal with Drain dominance rather than unrestrict certain Blue spells, such as Gush and Flash, the format is going to look increasingly normal if you aren’t playing a Blue deck. Aside from Blue draw spells, everything else, in particular lower tier Tutors and mana accelerants that aren’t being abused by Drain decks, are being unrestricted.

That means that the older ways of looking at the restricted list: tutors, acceleration, sources of card advantage, and so on, is wrong and antiquated.

If you are a mana accelerant or a tutor, but you aren't used by blue, you are unrestricted or likely unrestrictable. But if you are abused by a Force of Will deck, you are still going to be restricted. That explains Chrome Mox, Grim Monolith, Mox Diamond, Dark Ritual, Mishra’s Workshop, and so on. That also explains why Bazaar of Baghdad is unrestricted, but Library of Alexandria is not. It explains why Crop Rotation, Enlightened Tutor, and Entomb can be unrestricted, but Merchant Scroll is not. People used to focus on comparing existing cards with cards on the restricted list as a reason to restrict, or not. That point of comparison is no longer valid.

As I said, the restricted list is now, more than ever, Blue, or about cards that Blue decks abuse.

Four of the restricted Black spells are specifically spells that are abused by Drain decks (Demonic Tutor, Vampric Tutor, Imperial Seal, and Yawgmoth’s Will. Two of the remaining three are specifically spells abused by Dark Ritual decks. The remaining restricted Black spell is Demonic Consultation.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Again, this is more fully explicated:

Isn't the difference here really nuance?  The best tutors and card advantage cards are blue (and to a lesser extent black).  This doesn't make the restricted list any less about tutors and mana acceleration, it shows that crop rotation et al aren't that good (and happen to not be blue).

The other governing dynamic is, like you say, Force of Will.  If you can both tutor, draw or accelerate AND be used in a pinch to prevent a game breaking spell by pitching, your value increases.  If anything, this is the point to be made, not that the restricted list is suddenly not what we thought it was.

Let's assume we can all scroll up if we need to.

I certainly don't disagree with you that the frame is critical.  However saying the 'other frame' is less cogent is only relevant if you ignore synergy, since the majority of the 'other' frame is blue, and...

While it's certainly helpful and (depending on your point of view) reassuring that the DCI sees it as a FoW vs the world format, FoW's importance to T1 has been apparent since roughly just after its printing.

In short, yes, blue has the most tutors and draw along with the most powerful and tactically flexible 'hate' card in the format.  How does the recent B&R change our view of this?

[Smmenen]

Well, it's not just this B&R list change, so much as it is: the change + the explanation + the last couple of waves of unrestrictions. 

The DCI used to be in the sloppy habit of explaining restrictions on the ground that:

X is restricted
Y resembles X because it is a mana accelerant/tutor/draw spell. 
Therefore, Y is restricted.

Their analysis is, to quote Tom, 'more nuanced': "In the modern era, we have a more nuanced understanding of the Vintage metagame."   

As a result, talking about cards in those terms is less useful, and clear, then simply referring to them in terms of the framework we now have.  It's certainly true that most of those cards will be of the three categories just explicated, but they need not be.   Trinisphere, for example, was restricted without being any one of those three.   Future cards need not be either.

We can call it what it is without having to make silly, superficial analogies

But just as important, the new frame helps us see what can be unrestricted more clearly, without clinging to outdated/weak analogies.   I think a good one is this: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/rb102

Look at what Randy says about Chrome Mox and Burning Wish.   Despite saying that R&D will make mana accellerants like this, and that we should expect them to be restricted, Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are now unrestricted.   

[dark burn]

I find it really interesting that the restricted list is made of all cards that have been printed in Urza's block or before, except newly printed blue cards, and burning wish.  Burning Wish has been considered for unrestriction on tons of threads, and with the new exile rules, will probably be even more likely to come off now.  This just leaves us with new blue cards.  What does this tell us about the mechanics of magic and general balance of the colors? 

It seems to me that blue is just the more powerful color because card advantage is the most important part of magic.  Look at all the new restricted blue cards.  Besides ponder and minds desire, they all give card advantage at instant speed.  Minds Desire gives card parity and mana advantage through free spells, and ponder seems out of place.

The reason that other colors dont have as many cards on the b/r list is because Wizards have figured out how to basically balance power level in most formats and it is obvious when a red burn spell or green creature or white wrath effect are overpowered.  Even the new blue cards on the vintage b/r list arent broken in smaller formats.  They arent as broken because the card pool is not so strong that a 1-2 card advantage spell doesnt deliver as much power per card.

If wizards were to print a red spell that says 2R deal 9 damage, it would be on the restricted list. 

My point of this is that the vintage card pool makes blue draw spells broken.  Wizards is just finally realizing this.

[Vegeta2711]

I'd sooner hope they unrestricted DT than Consultation.

[Smmenen]

I'd sooner hope they unrestricted DT than Consultation.

DT finds Time Vault, Yawg Will, Tinker Black Lotus, and Ancestral Recall, the five cards you identified in this thread (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38206.0) as the five most powerful cards in the format.  

Demonic Consultation isn't used to find any of those cards.     So why would you want them to unrestrict the card that finds the most powerful cards and not the one that can't be used to find the most powerful cards?    By your own definition, Consult would be a bad card since you can't use it in a deck with the 5 best cards since you said the deck that uses all five of those cards is the most powerful.  

I find it really interesting that the restricted list is made of all cards that have been printed in Urza's block or before, except newly printed blue cards, and burning wish.  Burning Wish has been considered for unrestriction on tons of threads, and with the new exile rules, will probably be even more likely to come off now.  This just leaves us with new blue cards.  What does this tell us about the mechanics of magic and general balance of the colors?  

It seems to me that blue is just the more powerful color because card advantage is the most important part of magic.  Look at all the new restricted blue cards.  Besides ponder and minds desire, they all give card advantage at instant speed.  Minds Desire gives card parity and mana advantage through free spells, and ponder seems out of place.

The reason that other colors dont have as many cards on the b/r list is because Wizards have figured out how to basically balance power level in most formats and it is obvious when a red burn spell or green creature or white wrath effect are overpowered.  Even the new blue cards on the vintage b/r list arent broken in smaller formats.  They arent as broken because the card pool is not so strong that a 1-2 card advantage spell doesnt deliver as much power per card.

If wizards were to print a red spell that says 2R deal 9 damage, it would be on the restricted list.  

My point of this is that the vintage card pool makes blue draw spells broken.  Wizards is just finally realizing this.

This is a very perceptive post.   One minor correct: Trinisphere was printed in Darksteel, which was released in Feb., 2004.  

It's also interesting that 40% of the restricted list is from Alpha, despite the fact that they've removed a ton of cards from Alpha over the last five years: Fork, Braingyser, Black Vise, Mind Twist, Berserk.  

At the same time, the early expansion sets have not kept pace with Alpha.    The pre-ice age sets are almost gone from the restricted list.

arabian nights: 1 card (loa) which should be removed
Antiquities: 1 card strip mine
legends = zero cards
the dark = zero cards
fallen empires = zero cards

ice age: 3 cards (Brainstorm, Consult, and Necro)

ice age has more cards on the restricted list than every other expansion preceding it!  

Also, the vast majority of the Urza's block cards have been removed from the restricted list.  cards like Time Spiral are now unrestricted.  Only 7 cards are currently urza's block, and arguably more should be removed.

It's interesting to see where the restricted list is in 2009.  

[Vegeta2711]

Have you ever played a 4-consult deck before in any format? I'll hang up and listen.

[Troy_Costisick]

Well, it's not just this B&R list change, so much as it is: the change + the explanation + the last couple of waves of unrestrictions. 

The DCI used to be in the sloppy habit of explaining restrictions on the ground that:

X is restricted
Y resembles X because it is a mana accelerant/tutor/draw spell. 
Therefore, Y is restricted.

Their analysis is, to quote Tom, 'more nuanced': "In the modern era, we have a more nuanced understanding of the Vintage metagame."   

As a result, talking about cards in those terms is less useful, and clear, then simply referring to them in terms of the framework we now have.  It's certainly true that most of those cards will be of the three categories just explicated, but they need not be.   Trinisphere, for example, was restricted without being any one of those three.   Future cards need not be either.

We can call it what it is without having to make silly, superficial analogies

But just as important, the new frame helps us see what can be unrestricted more clearly, without clinging to outdated/weak analogies.   I think a good one is this: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/rb102

Look at what Randy says about Chrome Mox and Burning Wish.   Despite saying that R&D will make mana accellerants like this, and that we should expect them to be restricted, Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are now unrestricted.   

So Steve, would it be a useful exercise to catagorize the cards on the B/R list according to "Pillar" instead of by function or color?  Some would be repeated, of course, but it may prove insightful.  What do you think?

Peace,

-Troy

[Smmenen]

Have you ever played a 4-consult deck before in any format? I'll hang up and listen.

Of course.   4 Consult Trix in old extended *and* in old Vintage.    Consult is an amazing card.   Consult is also one of the best cards in original Long.dec because your deck is built around 4 Burning Wish.  

It's just sort of funny that you say that Time Vault, Tinker, Lotus, Will, and ACall are the best cards and make the best deck, and then suggest that unrestricting Consult is worse than unrestricting Demonic Tutor even though Consult can't be used with those cards.

By *definition* it can't be played in the best deck (according to you).  So why would you unrestrict Demonic Tutor before Demonic Consultation.  that doesn't make any sense.  

Well, it's not just this B&R list change, so much as it is: the change + the explanation + the last couple of waves of unrestrictions.  

The DCI used to be in the sloppy habit of explaining restrictions on the ground that:

X is restricted
Y resembles X because it is a mana accelerant/tutor/draw spell.  
Therefore, Y is restricted.

Their analysis is, to quote Tom, 'more nuanced': "In the modern era, we have a more nuanced understanding of the Vintage metagame."    

As a result, talking about cards in those terms is less useful, and clear, then simply referring to them in terms of the framework we now have.  It's certainly true that most of those cards will be of the three categories just explicated, but they need not be.   Trinisphere, for example, was restricted without being any one of those three.   Future cards need not be either.

We can call it what it is without having to make silly, superficial analogies

But just as important, the new frame helps us see what can be unrestricted more clearly, without clinging to outdated/weak analogies.   I think a good one is this: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/rb102

Look at what Randy says about Chrome Mox and Burning Wish.   Despite saying that R&D will make mana accellerants like this, and that we should expect them to be restricted, Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are now unrestricted.  

So Steve, would it be a useful exercise to catagorize the cards on the B/R list according to "Pillar" instead of by function or color?  Some would be repeated, of course, but it may prove insightful.  What do you think?

Peace,

-Troy

I think so Troy.  It could be quite revealing.

[zeus-online]

Honestly i'm pretty sure that consult is way too good to consider for unrestriction....It could be used in belcher and ad nauseam aswell as in Blue/Black fish decks. Consult is insane. Although last time i played it was with 4 necro trix.

Also, you say that loa should be removed, i dont believe that and according to the pool in the Advanced Vintage Forum about 40% agree with me (13 out of 33).
I've simply won and lost too many games to and with that card.

[DubDub]

This idea of looking at the restricted list in terms of pillar has already won me over.  I think we will need a few things.

Clearly defined pillars:
Dark Ritual
Force of Will/Mana Drain/Blue
Bazaar of Baghdad
Mishra's Workshop
Null Rod

Would be my interpretation.

A hierarchy of pillars, for instance, which pillar does TPS, which uses both Dark Ritual and Force of Will fall under?  This is solved by calling the pillar 'Blue' or Mana Drain, or by having a hierarchy.  If a deck has more than one pillar represented it's categorized as a _____ deck.  I would put the hierarchy as:

Bazaar
Ritual
Mishra's Workshop
Null Rod
FOW/Drain/Blue

This hierarchy has nothing to do with power level, it's just a method for sorting TPS or UbaStax into one category (assuming that's a desired outcome).

Quickly looking at the restricted list, the cards that aren't in Blue but are in two or more other pillars are (this is not an advocation for unrestriction), with their pillars:

Channel - Ritual (Belcher), Shop (Crop-Rotation Green)
Memory Jar - Ritual, Shop; (is this abusable in FOW/Drain/Blue?)
Trinisphere - Null Rod (Parfait), Shop
Demonic Consultation - Ritual, Shop, Null Rod
Lion's Eye Diamond - Ritual, Bazaar
Strip Mine - Bazaar (Loam), Shop, Null Rod

I was surprised to come up with the above list.  Without naming names, I would say that I think two of the above will never be unrestricted, and that the other four are VERY interesting.

[Smmenen]

Honestly i'm pretty sure that consult is way too good to consider for unrestriction....It could be used in belcher

 Consult is not playable in Belcher for obvious reasons (you need 20 cards in your deck to Belch).

and ad nauseam aswell as in Blue/Black fish decks.

Exactly.  If that's not reason to unrestrict, I don't know what is.   

Ad Nauseam decks are a tiny fraction of the current metagame (2.5% of Top 8s).  If consult gives them a boost such that they could become even 5% or 10% of Top 8s, that would be a great thing for the diversity of the format.  Same with Belcher. 

Channel actually allows a 40%+ turn one Goldfish.  Consult does not.   

@ DubDub,

Here is another way of looking at it:


1) Restricted Because of Abuse in Dominant Drain/Force of Will Decks

Brainstorm
Merchant Scroll
Ponder
Thirst For Knowledge
Gush
Fact or Fiction
Gifts Ungiven
Time Vault
Regrowth
Library of Alexandria

2) Restricted to prevent decks that don't allow opponent to have a turn/interact at all

Trinisphere
Flash
Mind's Desire
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Channel
Fastbond
Wheel of Fortune
Timetwister
Memory Jar
Windfall
Lion's Eye Diamond
Strip Mine
Frantic Search
Demonic Consultation
Balance

Cards that are abused both by Drain/Force of Will decks AND the Turn One Deck:

* Black Lotus
* Mox Emerald
* Mox Jet
* Mox Pearl
* Mox Ruby
* Mox Sapphire
* Sol Ring
* Mana Crypt
* Mana Vault
* Mana Crypt
* Lotus Petal
* Tolarian Academy

* Ancestral Recall
* Time Walk
* Tinker
* Mystical Tutor
* Yawgmoth’s Will
* Demonic Tutor
* Vampiric Tutor
* Imperial Seal
* Burning Wish

[Troy_Costisick]

Man, I just cross-posted that same thing in the Advanced forum.  I appologize Stephen, didn't mean to steal your thunder

[Grand Inquisitor]

I've already said I'm a fan of framing stuff to be useful, but this seems to be turning past that point.  The problem in each of these examples is that they proposed frame of understanding is at least as limiting as the existing one.

This idea of looking at the restricted list in terms of pillar has already won me over.

Pillars - the problem here (exhaustively argued by Steve at various points) is that cards require context or they're mostly meaningless.  However, there's only a tenuous connection between, say, strip mine and bazaar of baghdad insofar as that pillar is useful for describing why strip mine is restricted.  Workshop is a little better, but it gets too complicated too fast.

Here is another way of looking at it:

Cards that are abused both by Drain/Force of Will decks AND the Turn One Deck:
* Black Lotus

This is an incomplete evaluation if there ever was one.  Black Lotus enables any strategy in a 'broken' way.  I'd go out on a limb and argue that Black Lotus in an opening hand of Fish does more to increase Fish's strategy than it would in the blue combo-control decks that have dominated recent metagames.  Why is looking at Black Lotus this way particularly useful?