Steel City Vault - Discussion

[forests failed you]

Yes, Gifts Ungiven has been an absolute all star for me.  I don't think that I have lost a game where I have resolved it, as the deck has so many broken options that it can utilize to immediately win the game.

If you have Welder in play an eot Gifts for Key, Vault, and 2 Moxes will win)
If you have Key or Vault in play an eot Gifts will produce (Walk, Welder, Regrowth, and Key or Vault)
Gifts for value against Fish often looks something like (Ancient Grudge, Darkblast, Polluted Delta, Goblin Welder)

I have adopted Williams' idea of playing an Intuition and a Darkblast in the maindeck instead of 2x Impulse.  I think it is a strict upgrade in the current field.

It is frustrating to have to continue to address statements such as "5cStax is a bad match up for you because it plays md Leyline and multiple Gorilla Shaman" or, the deck doesn't beat TPS; why not just play TPS?"

Where are all of these TPS and Leyline/Workshop decks?  I surely haven't faced off against them in any tournaments.  I said that Gorilla Shaman was good against SCV, but it certainly isn't unbeatable--the deck doesn't fold to it.  I said that it is good against the deck--but that doesn't mean that I can't win through it.  I beat a Gorilla Shaman from a Stax deck at GenCon, and I also lost to one.  I did not anticipate Fish decks playing a lot of Red on the splash for Shaman.  The addition of Darkblast also helps deal with Shaman a lot.  

@2nd law:  We will have to agree to disagree about how TPS performs against Fish decks.  When I think about Fish I believe there are two "The best" ways to construct a Fish deck at the moment.  One is the 5c Fish deck that Patrick wrote about in his "The Deck" article, and the other is a list similar to the BUG Fish deck that Ben Carp played at Champs.  In the testing that Patrick and I did for Worlds our conclusion was that both of these deck smashed TPS, and that the match ups with SCV was close to 50-50.  I trust that information because 1 it was the result of an extensive session of first hand play-testing that I did, and second it was against two competent pilots evaluating the match up unbiasedly.  We had several decks put together and we played a lot of games trying to figure out what was the best deck to play at GenCon Champs...  I didn't care which deck I played, but rather my sole interest was to play the deck that I felt gave me the best chance of winning the tournament.  

It is certainly true that a person "could" play Stax with a bunch of hate cards for SCV in the maindeck, or "could" play a streamlined TPS deck that beats SCV, or "could" play any number of things that are good against any deck in the format.  The fact is that by and large they don't, and also they didn't.  That doesn't mean that people will start playing with more cards that are good against this particular deck.  I think that they might, but I haven't really seen it done yet.  (Although, I haven't played in any tournaments since GenCon, so I don't know exactly what people will play next week).  I think there is certainly a chance that some people will play decks similar to this deck in the future, as I think that it is a well positioned deck in the current metagame and provides a pilot with a good opportunity to win the tournament because of a few factors:

1.  The power level of the individual cards in the deck is very high.  It plays a lot of cards that are restricted, they are restricted for a reason.
2.  It is good against the strategies that tend to be good against Time Vault decks because it plays with ways to effectively answer these threats for value.  In addition, the answers that it plays:  Goblin Welder and Ancient Grudge, also happen to be good against EVERYBODY right now.
3.  The deck gives pilots a lot of lines of play, which makes it versatile and gives the deck ways to win even against its bad match ups.  I played several games against TPS with the deck after Champs and I played against Soly playing Bob Tendrils and I didn't feel that the match up was so terrible that even if TPS made a comeback that it would make SCV obsolete.  The fact is Wheel of Fortune is actually pretty good against a Storm deck that keeps all its Moxes and Rituals stored up in its hand while it sets up for Critical Mass.  Secondly, Duress is not even close to the best way at fighting an Academy style combo deck.  It is an okay thing to do against it, but it isn't actually great the way that cards that destroy resources are.

The individuals who constantly bring up TPS are people who are well known as being strong advocates of TPS and bring certain biases to the discussion as far as their opinions of how that deck performs in a variety of match ups.  If you just say "TPS is good against Fish" meaning that it is good against all Fish decks in the abstract, it causes the community to suffer from the exact problem discussed in the article "Information Cascades."  Because, other people hear people saying "TPS beats Fish" and just assume that this information is correct, or that it must be true that any Null Rod Agro deck will lose to a Dark Ritual Deck.  The playtesting that I've done with Patrick suggests to me that Dark Ritual actually has a poor match up against Fish decks that I feel are built correctly to play in a field that includes a high number of Time Vaults, Mishra's Workshops, and other Fish decks.  

In addition, the games I've played with Dark Ritual against Mana Drain/Vault deck suggests to me that Dark Ritual also doesn't have a particularly favorable match here either.  Tendrils of Agony is a worse victory condition than Time Vault because it requires more cards and resources to assemble, and because often it is slower to assemble than Key and Vault.  Key/Vault is also a better random "Ooops, I just won" combo to randomly assemble in the first two turns than Tendrils of Agony, 9 spells and the mana to cast them.  In addition to this, the hate cards that Fish decks play in order to combat Time Vault also have splash damage against Tendrils of Agony decks!  Null Rod, Aven Mindsensor, Gaddok Teeg, Thought Seize, and Choke--although not included in deck lists to specifically hose Storm, are actually really hard for Tendrils decks to win through.

Specifically, what Fish are you good against?  What testing have you done against what lists that caused you to come to that conclusion?  More importantly, why are we talking about TPS's match up against Fish in a thread designed to talk about a completely different deck?  It would probably be more appropriate to move that discussion to one of the two dozen forums that are 75 posts long by the TPS Mafia discussing in great detail whether Rebuild or Hurkyl's Recall is the best 60th card.

SCV was a deck that we brewed because we felt it had the right tools to beat what people were actually playing, and that it would provide a good opportunity to beat the decks we were likely to play at Champs and in Pennsylvania.  If that changes, it is likely that the deck won't be well positioned.  So, when Vintage tournaments are not saturated with Mana Drain/Tezz, Stax, and Null Rod Fish, it is likely there will be no need for the SCV deck anymore.  But, I don't foresee that becoming a problem in the near future.  I actually, think that people will play the SCV deck in the near future and that might cause a slight shift in the kinds of sideboard cards people start to pack.  In particular, I think that one of the interesting things that we all learned at Champs was that Leyline of the Void is really, really good right now and that more people will play a 4 Leyline sideboard package (possibly with Helm).  If this is true than we can predict that Ichorid might decline slightly allowing for other decks to sideboard less cards.  I recommend that if one plays this deck at a tournament that he or she play at least 2 ways to destroy an Enchantment out of the sideboard to combat people who play Leylines and other hosey Enchantments.  Unfortunately, Leyline of the Void is AWESOME against TPS as well as against SCV, 5cStax and of course Ichorid.  If people play more Leylines it makes TPS' position even worse.  (SCV also has Leylines to combat TPS).  People who look to beat SCV play Enchantments to beat it, thus a well prepared SCV pilot simply plays ways to cheaply answer enchantments.  I kind of like the idea of Rey of Revelation, the only problem is that the deck has no plains which is sort of awkward and that it can't be flashed back if it kills a Leyline.  

I am pretty sure that 1x Naturalize and 1x Krosan Grip is probably a good configuration for starters (as K.Grip gives us more outs to Chalice of the Void set for two.  (in addition to Rebuild, Welders and Tinker).

[Sean Ryan]

Demars breakin it down!  Way to bring Academy combo to 2009.

Seriously, you shoulld write more, even if it's just once a quartter.  We need more intelligent voices out there.

[Metman]

Yes.  TPS has a good match up against this deck.  So does Chains of Mephastopholes.dec. 

Fortunately, there is not a lot of TPS floating around right now.  TPS struggles against a large percentage of the decks that people actually play.  In particular, its Tezz, 5cStax, and Fish match ups are less than impressive.  I wanted to play TPS after Thirst for Knowledge got restricted, but the problem was that it didn't seem like it was particularly good against any of the most popular decks--so, instead I opted to play a deck that was specifically designed to beat the decks that people were actually going to be playing.  And, to my credit I feel that I pegged the metagame very well.  In two tournaments I faced TPS 0 times, Drains 6 times, Null Rodw/creatures 6 times, Workshop 3 Times, and Dredge 3 Times.  Which is exactly what I hoped to/anticipated playing against in those events. 

Great job metagaming!  I can't believe you have to continue explaining why you didn't have to consider designing a deck to beat decks that didn't represent the metagame.  

If we all built decks in a vacuum nothing would look like what was played at the top 8 tables...anywhere.  Take a look at the top 8 of Gencon people.  The decks represented are designed to beat the rest of the field.  Isn't it this way in every metegame's top 8?  Aren't the decks that finish well best designed to beat the others?  How much TPS was in the top 8?  How much TPS was in the rest of the metegame?  The answer is slim to none.

If you have a field full of TPS play something else.  Don't tell the 3rd place finisher of the Vintage World Championship his deck isn't good because he doesn't have a good TPS match up.  TPS was hardly represented!

I think this state of mind is the reason so many people don't finish well.  They fail to accept responsibility for their decision to play certain cards in a metegame.  I'm not trying to say that Brian's list is perfect but it is pretty close considering the metegame.  Brian's ability to predict, adapt, and next time adjust is one reason he's an excellent player. He predicted X and played against X.  Well done!

[gamegeek2]

Tezz, 5cStax, and Fish

As others have said, the only real problem here is Stax. Tezz is a very good matchup for TPS, as TPS has just as much protection but is faster and has more powerful bombs. Same thing against SCV.

TPS is of course quite vulnerable to Workshop Strategies, but those can be played around by boarding in basics and using Rebuild/Recall before they can nuke your 7 post-board basics. Pre-board it's definitely in Stax's favor.

Null Rod, Aven Mindsensor, Gaddok Teeg, Thought Seize, and Choke--although not included in deck lists to specifically hose Storm, are actually really hard for Tendrils decks to win through.

As for Fish, Null Rod isn't nearly as good against TPS as it is against Vault decks. Sure, it's annoying and slows you down, but the deck has multiple bounce spells or can go off with Rituals instead. Choke? Pah! Fetch basic swamp! Discard is good, but it's all for naught if you can cast and resolve a major non-Desire engine (Desire is usually shut off by discard) That being said, Teeg and Mindcensor are major problems. This is why post-board TPS often has Massacre, which is a blowout against white Fish and good against some nonwhite versions as well. (post board you also get basics for some off color moxen, helping make both Null Rod and Wasteland less effective). Teeg is not as much of a problem as mindcensor, as you can still tutor up Chain of Vapor; Mindcensor on the other hand shuts off these tutors.

[Vegeta2711]

Tezz, 5cStax, and Fish

As others have said, the only real problem here is Stax. Tezz is a very good matchup for TPS, as TPS has just as much protection but is faster and has more powerful bombs. Same thing against SCV.

TPS is of course quite vulnerable to Workshop Strategies, but those can be played around by boarding in basics and using Rebuild/Recall before they can nuke your 7 post-board basics. Pre-board it's definitely in Stax's favor.

Null Rod, Aven Mindsensor, Gaddok Teeg, Thought Seize, and Choke--although not included in deck lists to specifically hose Storm, are actually really hard for Tendrils decks to win through.

As for Fish, Null Rod isn't nearly as good against TPS as it is against Vault decks. Sure, it's annoying and slows you down, but the deck has multiple bounce spells or can go off with Rituals instead. Choke? Pah! Fetch basic swamp! Discard is good, but it's all for naught if you can cast and resolve a major non-Desire engine (Desire is usually shut off by discard) That being said, Teeg and Mindcensor are major problems. This is why post-board TPS often has Massacre, which is a blowout against white Fish and good against some nonwhite versions as well. (post board you also get basics for some off color moxen, helping make both Null Rod and Wasteland less effective). Teeg is not as much of a problem as mindcensor, as you can still tutor up Chain of Vapor; Mindcensor on the other hand shuts off these tutors.

What precisely is your point? I get you enjoy talking about TPS, but this is a thread about a different deck.

[2nd_lawl]

double post sorry.

[2nd_lawl]

I think there has been a serious miscommunication here.  By fish i mean any deck that has null rod and creatures that isn't playing workshops.  It may be the case that TPS has a poor or even matchup with whatever 5 color fish deck that you were testing with, but that deck is irrelevant since nobody plays it(not to get sidetracked here, but i believe a significant number of the players playing decks like g/w g/w/b/ do so because they are decks that are even cheaper than the "broken" decks with 15 proxies, since it can proxy duals/fetches and doesnet need FOW, and as far as I can tell are much more popular then BUG or whatever else you were testing) .  What should matter is that TPS (or drain tendrils, which i think is potentially better) has favorable matchups against those decks(which are designed to beat tez, and to a lesser extent workshops).  Which brings me back to my original point: as a rule its better to dodge a problem card, then to try and fight it head on.  You can't deny that null rod is a problem card for SCV, even with 4 md artifact kill spells.  Its not that I think the deck is bad, it isnt bad, it more like that the deck is an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.  

Why im skeptical is that if you claim such good matchups in a format where essentially everyone who isnt playing vault/key is gunning for vault/key, that implies that this deck would be gods gift to vintage in a format that was less hateful.  how long has vault/key been legal? almost a year now?  so anyway my question is basically this: why wasnt this the best deck X months ago when vault was first restored? You cant tell me that nobody tried to assemble this deck BEFORE the advent of decks like g/w and g/w/b which should be a natural predator to SCV (even though you claim that they arent).  It seems unlikley that nobody upon the restoration of vault thought to make a combo deck to assemble the combo as fast as possible.  Even if their list was terrible, it couldnt have been so much different then yours given that its mostly just the restricted list.  Furthermore it seems like, even if that version of the deck was super rough, if your matchups now are as good as you claim, then the matchups then in an environment that was far far far less hateful to artifact activated abilities should have been absolutely incredible.

edit: I want to make one thing perfectly clear. SCV has enjoyed success in 2 tournaments so far.  In both of those tournaments it has been played by a small number of highly skilled players.  The reason that im pointing out that the deck is obvious(meaning that similar decks were likley tried by infi people on mws etc when time vault was first unerrated, as playing a 2 card i win combo + draw 7's is a fairly simple strategy) those decks played by those people never caught on presumably because they weren't winning.  Now that SCV is "out there" my prediction is that it will fail to convert when played by average players against average opponents(instead of how it has been: played by top players against average opponents).  I have to imagine that you gained % against opponents who couldn't figure out what you were playing at the steel city tournament, and the same at worlds(since you successfully conspired to keep the exact list secret for 2 weeks), which from what I have heard is fairly loose in the early rounds.

[M.Solymossy]

 In both of those tournaments it has been played by a small number of highly skilled players.  The reason that im pointing out that the deck is obvious(meaning that similar decks were likley tried by infi people on mws etc when time vault was first unerrated, as playing a 2 card i win combo + draw 7's is a fairly simple strategy) those decks played by those people never caught on presumably because they weren't winning.  Now that SCV is "out there" my prediction is that it will fail to convert when played by average players against average opponents(instead of how it has been: played by top players against average opponents).  I have to imagine that you gained % against opponents who couldn't figure out what you were playing at the steel city tournament, and the same at worlds(since you successfully conspired to keep the exact list secret for 2 weeks), which from what I have heard is fairly loose in the early rounds.

You are wrong about the tournament being lose in the early rounds, as Brian played TK in either round 2 or round 3, for example.  Second, in reality, do the "average" players really matter?   If the case is that average players will fail with the deck, then let them.  I have played with the deck for weeks now, and I can assure you it's absolutely busted and does things no other vintage deck can play. 

The highly skilled players will continue to crush others by playing this deck, and it will continue it's success.  People will throw Wheel and Twister into their Tezzeret decks and fail, but someone who is prepaired with Steel City Vault will destroy metagames.

[Stormanimagus]

I think there has been a serious miscommunication here.  By fish i mean any deck that has null rod and creatures that isn't playing workshops.  It may be the case that TPS has a poor or even matchup with whatever 5 color fish deck that you were testing with, but that deck is irrelevant since nobody plays it(not to get sidetracked here, but i believe a significant number of the players playing decks like g/w g/w/b/ do so because they are decks that are even cheaper than the "broken" decks with 15 proxies, since it can proxy duals/fetches and doesnet need FOW, and as far as I can tell are much more popular then BUG or whatever else you were testing) .  What should matter is that TPS (or drain tendrils, which i think is potentially better) has favorable matchups against those decks(which are designed to beat tez, and to a lesser extent workshops).  Which brings me back to my original point: as a rule its better to dodge a problem card, then to try and fight it head on.  You can't deny that null rod is a problem card for SCV, even with 4 md artifact kill spells.  Its not that I think the deck is bad, it isnt bad, it more like that the deck is an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.  

Why im skeptical is that if you claim such good matchups in a format where essentially everyone who isnt playing vault/key is gunning for vault/key, that implies that this deck would be gods gift to vintage in a format that was less hateful.  how long has vault/key been legal? almost a year now?  so anyway my question is basically this: why wasnt this the best deck X months ago when vault was first restored? You cant tell me that nobody tried to assemble this deck BEFORE the advent of decks like g/w and g/w/b which should be a natural predator to SCV (even though you claim that they arent).  It seems unlikley that nobody upon the restoration of vault thought to make a combo deck to assemble the combo as fast as possible.  Even if their list was terrible, it couldnt have been so much different then yours given that its mostly just the restricted list.  Furthermore it seems like, even if that version of the deck was super rough, if your matchups now are as good as you claim, then the matchups then in an environment that was far far far less hateful to artifact activated abilities should have been absolutely incredible.

edit: I want to make one thing perfectly clear. SCV has enjoyed success in 2 tournaments so far.  In both of those tournaments it has been played by a small number of highly skilled players.  The reason that im pointing out that the deck is obvious(meaning that similar decks were likley tried by infi people on mws etc when time vault was first unerrated, as playing a 2 card i win combo + draw 7's is a fairly simple strategy) those decks played by those people never caught on presumably because they weren't winning.  Now that SCV is "out there" my prediction is that it will fail to convert when played by average players against average opponents(instead of how it has been: played by top players against average opponents).  I have to imagine that you gained % against opponents who couldn't figure out what you were playing at the steel city tournament, and the same at worlds(since you successfully conspired to keep the exact list secret for 2 weeks), which from what I have heard is fairly loose in the early rounds.

I have to agree with many of these points. Why do people often overlook WHO is playing a deck before saying it is the second coming?

I think SCV is an average deck and will most likely fizzle out a lot more often than people want to admit, because it runs very VERY minimal protection plan. As someone stated earlier: why play this deck when you could play Grim Long? Both are high risk, but Grim Long is FAAAAR more resilient.

If Null Rod were not a huge part of the metagame today I'd say that SCV might not be a bad choice, but Null Rod gives it a headache. I realize that it IS basically a Tezzeret deck sans Drains and + Welders/Draw 7's, but that's actually a big enough difference to matter a lot. Drain helps to set up protected Tinkers that can be a huge boon against Fish. This deck just doesn't look like it'll get protected Tinkers very often.

One could argue that TPS is also just Tezz sans Drains + Vault/Key + Tezzeret + a couple other draw spells, but clearly people realize that those two decks are quite different.

I strongly feel people underrate TPS in this metagame simply because the deck has the "oops I lose because I'm dumb" factor. Generally, Vintage players don't like that. Even the experienced players who won't make many mistakes get frightened by piloting decks like TPS cause they know that they can totally screw themselves with one minor mistake. This does not change the fact that TPS has resiliency and inevitability on its side. It has the best top-decks in Vintage, hands down, no contest. You'd have to make a really good argument for SCV have better top-decks and even Tezzeret.

I think that the argument someone posted earlier that Tezzeret & SCV are better than TPS because Vault/Key is easier to assemble than Tendrils + 9 Spells are missing some aspects of the two kills.

1. Tendrils interacts with ALL the spells in your deck because Storm count doesn't care what spell is used to add to it.

2. Vault/Key is stopped by a 2 mana artifact as well as other easy/widely played hate (Gorilla Shaman, Pithing Needle, Qasali Pridemage, R & R, Oxidize etc., etc., etc.,) while Tendrils isn't really stopped by anything (except perhaps Stifle, but you should never be walking blindly into a Stifle if you are a competent TPS player). There are strategies that hurt your GY, of course, and there are strategies that hurt your tutors (Aven Mindcensor) but few widely played cards stop TPS in its tracks.

3. TPS runs TONS of broken engines that make getting a lethal tendrils or untargettable Inky very consistent and easy.

4. TPS has the fewest dead cards of any deck in the format. The only cards I really don't like to see in my opening hand with TPS are: Inky, Tendrils, Rebuild. Most any other spell in the deck is fair game for being good in an opening 7. That's pretty ridiculous.

I hope this helps explain my view. I don't deny that SCV is good. I just don't think it is anything incredible or format warping.

Here's keeping my fingers crossed that they unrestrict some goodies to put an end to highlander.vintage!

-Storm

[gamegeek2]

I have to agree with many of these points. Why do people often overlook WHO is playing a deck before saying it is the second coming?

I think SCV is an average deck and will most likely fizzle out a lot more often than people want to admit, because it runs very VERY minimal protection plan. As someone stated earlier: why play this deck when you could play Grim Long? Both are high risk, but Grim Long is FAAAAR more resilient.

If Null Rod were not a huge part of the metagame today I'd say that SCV might not be a bad choice, but Null Rod gives it a headache. I realize that it IS basically a Tezzeret deck sans Drains and + Welders/Draw 7's, but that's actually a big enough difference to matter a lot. Drain helps to set up protected Tinkers that can be a huge boon against Fish. This deck just doesn't look like it'll get protected Tinkers very often.

One could argue that TPS is also just Tezz sans Drains + Vault/Key + Tezzeret + a couple other draw spells, but clearly people realize that those two decks are quite different.

I strongly feel people underrate TPS in this metagame simply because the deck has the "oops I lose because I'm dumb" factor. Generally, Vintage players don't like that. Even the experienced players who won't make many mistakes get frightened by piloting decks like TPS cause they know that they can totally screw themselves with one minor mistake. This does not change the fact that TPS has resiliency and inevitability on its side. It has the best top-decks in Vintage, hands down, no contest. You'd have to make a really good argument for SCV have better top-decks and even Tezzeret.

I think that the argument someone posted earlier that Tezzeret & SCV are better than TPS because Vault/Key is easier to assemble than Tendrils + 9 Spells are missing some aspects of the two kills.

1. Tendrils interacts with ALL the spells in your deck because Storm count doesn't care what spell is used to add to it.

2. Vault/Key is stopped by a 2 mana artifact as well as other easy/widely played hate (Gorilla Shaman, Pithing Needle, Qasali Pridemage, R & R, Oxidize etc., etc., etc.,) while Tendrils isn't really stopped by anything (except perhaps Stifle, but you should never be walking blindly into a Stifle if you are a competent TPS player). There are strategies that hurt your GY, of course, and there are strategies that hurt your tutors (Aven Mindcensor) but few widely played cards stop TPS in its tracks.

3. TPS runs TONS of broken engines that make getting a lethal tendrils or untargettable Inky very consistent and easy.

4. TPS has the fewest dead cards of any deck in the format. The only cards I really don't like to see in my opening hand with TPS are: Inky, Tendrils, Rebuild. Most any other spell in the deck is fair game for being good in an opening 7. That's pretty ridiculous.

I hope this helps explain my view. I don't deny that SCV is good. I just don't think it is anything incredible or format warping.

Here's keeping my fingers crossed that they unrestrict some goodies to put an end to highlander.vintage!

Excellent post, illustrates my point very well.

This is why people aren't playing the deck. It's well suited to take on Fish and especially Drain strategies, but it's difficult to pilot correctly - piloting a highlander storm combo deck is much harder than piloting a highlander combo-control deck. In any given game, one must have every card in the deck in mind. Not to mention the slightest mistake can kill you.

SCV, on the other hand, is simple to pick up and understand. It has the basic Force of Will + Broken Stuff + Vault/Key package and packs draw7s and some metagame cards. It's also easy to figure out how to assemble a two-card combo. It's easier to play than drains because it is almost entirely proactive.

@Solymossy, I think I played you on MWS the other day I think. I was testing this Drain/Welder/Vault thing, more like Slaver and Tezz. I have since modified that deck, though I still prefer TPS.

I have played with the deck for weeks now, and I can assure you it's absolutely busted and does things no other vintage deck can play.

The same exact argument gets made for TPS. What other Vintage deck games with Mind's Desire? (Bargain and Necro too, but ANT or at least some variants play those).

[2nd_lawl]

You are wrong about the tournament being lose in the early rounds, as Brian played TK in either round 2 or round 3, for example. 

That doesn't mean it isnt loose, obviously good players get paired against someone.

Second, in reality, do the "average" players really matter? 

They matter in the sense that they are the metagame. Which is my point about the claim that SCV was good against fish because it was beating chapin's 5 color fish list, from what i have seen GW and GWB are far more popular.

 If the case is that average players will fail with the deck, then let them.  I have played with the deck for weeks now, and I can assure you it's absolutely busted and does things no other vintage deck can play.  The highly skilled players will continue to crush others by playing this deck, and it will continue it's success.  People will throw Wheel and Twister into their Tezzeret decks and fail, but someone who is prepaired with Steel City Vault will destroy metagames.

I think you missed the point, obviously good players are going to do well tournaments.  But have the good players who have done well with SCV achieved that result because of the deck, or in spite of it?  The point about average players is this: if the deck is as good as its creators are claiming then it should be putting up results and outperforming the field generally, not just when good players play it.  Please don't claim the deck is super hard to play either, I have played around with it plenty online, and it seems average difficulty for a vintage combo deck.  Granted there hasn't been enough time yet to judge weather it has measured up to that test, but I predict that it wont. 

[clayparson]

I feel the statement that this deck is significantly easier to play than either TPS or any of various Drain decks is foolish, and comparisons to TPS or other Vault+Key decks are weak at best.  The deck plays differently from any other around at the moment, and requires a different set of skills and decisions to make in order to pilot the deck at peak efficiency.

Also, Null Rod is not a huge problem for SCV.  From my understanding, SCV was built to beat the Null Rod decks that have shown up in large numbers as of late and in my testing (whatever that is worth) it does just that.

[LordHomerCat]

Null Rod is obviously still an annoyance, but it is far more beatable with this deck than normal Tezzeret.  Normal Tez almost cannot beat a resolved Rod while this deck runs a half dozen ways to deal with it, precisely because that is what it was designed for.

Also, saying "this deck is only of average difficulty" and "this deck has not been impressive in testing" leads me to the conclusion that, well, you are just not very good with the deck.  I've stood over Brian's shoulder and watched a ton of games and I will admit that I would have made much different plays in a lot of them, and then subsequently lost the game because of those plays.  The deck is actually pretty complicated, and if you are getting beat by everybody, well, maybe you shouldn't just blame the deck and call Brian's success a fluke.

Also, BUG Fish is extremely popular in the midwest, far more than GW or GWx crap.  Maybe you haven't played against it, but it is easily the most popular fish deck out here because it is the most powerful against the field at large.

[gamegeek2]

In comparison to TPS, of course. Any Vintage deck is going to involved complicated strategical decisions, especially blue ones.

[Duncan]

In comparison to TPS, of course. Any Vintage deck is going to involved complicated strategical decisions, especially blue ones.

What precisely is your point? I get you enjoy talking about TPS, but this is a thread about a different deck.

Yeah, WHAT is your point? Will you keep going on until everybody in this thread says "Ok, he's right, let's just all play TPS"? This thread should be about the discussion of the article, the list and the matchups, not about TPS.

----

As for the article, Brian, I liked it. I hope you'll write some more in the future.

What is the typical way to deal with other artifact hate than Null Rod? I know you have welder, but most decks run ample answers for X/1's these days. The deck seemed to have difficulties with Itou's list (which I think will be adopted by more players since GenCon) running Fire/Ice and Darkblast (good against SCV's draw7's) and R&R.

I do think the deck is good and it's great to see players are still innovating, but the fact that you guys kept the list secret helped your win-%'s I think. When you know what the deck runs and what it's gameplan is it is better to fight it. (of course that's why you kept the list hidden until GenCon).

[gamegeek2]

Whatever. On to the original discussion:

I like the concept, and how the deck plays. Being the proactive player, having the initiative, is always a good thing, and Ancient Grudge is an excellent card choice in this metagame, as it offers 2 attacks against a Null Rod or Vault/Key. The only weakness I see is that the deck is poor on the defense, though its defense is indeed its offense, and its offense is an impressive one. It's certainly high on my list of top decks at the moment.

I liked Brian's article a lot too, and he's a great player to boot. I wish he had written up a tournament report, I would've loved to read that, as I'm sure many of us would. It's always great to see innovation from good players.

[kalisia]

If the case is that average players will fail with the deck, then let them.  I have played with the deck for weeks now, and I can assure you it's absolutely busted and does things no other vintage deck can play.  The highly skilled players will continue to crush others by playing this deck, and it will continue it's success.  People will throw Wheel and Twister into their Tezzeret decks and fail, but someone who is prepaired with Steel City Vault will destroy metagames.

That is the exact definition of a good deck, not a metagame breaker.
If this deck wins only when it is played by topplayers, then it's just a good deck, not more.

"Meandeck Gifts" WAS a metagame breaker, because the deck was so strong that even average players could win tournaments with it.

But I have to say that the building of SCV has some originality....I'm talking about the building only....and not about the kill, because the "mechanical reflex" of good players in adding Time Vault and Key inside ALL their "inventions" is a little boring.

[BruiZar]

3. TPS runs TONS of broken engines that make getting a lethal tendrils or untargettable Inky very consistent and easy.

-Storm

You do realize that inkwell sux balls right?

Please make sure that, in the future, your posts have some content in them.

Rich

[Stormanimagus]

3. TPS runs TONS of broken engines that make getting a lethal tendrils or untargettable Inky very consistent and easy.

-Storm

You do realize that inkwell sux balls right?

On what basis do you make such a claim? I think if we are talking about Inky vs. DSC then it's tough to make a call.

If you are looking to kill them off DSC and they are Tezz or any other highlander type deck that runs bounce and a way to tutor for it then they will simply tutor up their bounce and kill bounce your DSC. If they are Fish and run STP they will simply STP.

Also, if they bounce your Inkwell with something like Hurkyl's Recall then you can simply pitch it to FoW and win with Tendrils. It is a less dead card than DSC in many situations. I don't see why you wouldn't run it over DSC. EVER.

Now Sphinx is a totally different animal, but I'm not sure that really belongs as a Tinker Target in TPS. It just seems slow and clunky for what TPS is trying to do.

-Storm

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Also, if they bounce your Inkwell with something like Hurkyl's Recall then you can simply pitch it to FoW and win with Tendrils. It is a less dead card than DSC in many situations. I don't see why you wouldn't run it over DSC. EVER.

It kills in two turns not three, which to me is very relevant against other Drain decks, shops, Ichorid, and fish. Also a while back Inkwell got to be so popular that everyone who wasn't just losing to it adjusted so now you see fish decks that run 1-2 Hurkyl's Recall or a Diabolic Edict, same for the control decks they usually run a Rebuild or the Hurkyl's. In my eyes Darksteel is much better since now everyones answer to the Tinkerbot doesn't target so its largley irrelevant that the Inkwell has shroud (the only exception to this is Goblin Welder).

[LordHomerCat]

I have run a lot of DSC lately, because of the reasons Owen said.  However, Welder is getting more popular again, and that's like the only real card which screws with your DSC and not your Inkwell.  Plus, having your own Welders makes bringing him in a real thing.  Without welders, I still don't know which I'd play.  If I have welders though, I think Inkwell is the dude, even though he is slow and crappy: at least he is better than Sundering Titan.

[BruiZar]

Sorry for my lack of explanation. My problem with Inkwell is that he is just too slow. Sure you can tinker up inkwell but you are  giving me 3 turns to assemble my own Time Vault combo, so that inkwell will never get another attack step. Both Inkwell, Sphinx and DSC evade your Inkwell (Islandwalk, Flying, being 11/11 indestructible) so you can't block with it. For a combo deck to utilize such a slow clock, to me looks counterintuitive. Atleast Sphinx has protection from green and red which is very relevant.

[LordHomerCat]

But sphinx is an entire turn slower than Inkwell.  All the robots suck against Key-Vault decks, so that's not really any sort of deal breaker.

[MirariKnight]

I know we hate this debate but I don't think Sphinx realistically is slower than Inkwell (they must have taken 2 at some point etc.).
But really Sphinx is just so much better in the matches where you want to have a giant guy out that it seems worth that risk that they didn't deal 2 to themselves. If not just play DSC.

[korgano]

Although tangential to the SCV discussion (which I find a fascinatingly fun deck and I thank DeMars for showcasing and describing it in great detail) it is pretty obvious (as others have stated) that regardless of the clock in damage, it's pretty huge that inkwell's shroud prevents it from being stp'ed, sower'ed, etruth'ed, etc.

When playing fish against a possible tinker deck, I really have no idea if I should board in sower or not, if they dsc or sphinx then it works well, but with inkwell in play sower is a dead card to me. An inkwell play leaves diabolic edict as essentially the only out. Even if I were playing a key-vault deck with a sower main board it becomes useless versus inkwell.

That being said, with the right protection that can usually only be provided for by drains and FoW's, a big stompy DSC will carry through to victory most times it hits board.

[BruiZar]

To be honest, I don't like the tinkerman-plan at all. Either it needs to win the turn you play it, or it needs to lock your opponent out the turn you play it. I've been playing around with Mycosynth Lattice as a tinker target but haven't been able to make it work yet. Thus far I'm unimpressed with Tinkering for anything besides combo pieces.

[zeus-online]

To be honest, I don't like the tinkerman-plan at all. Either it needs to win the turn you play it, or it needs to lock your opponent out the turn you play it. I've been playing around with Mycosynth Lattice as a tinker target but haven't been able to make it work yet. Thus far I'm unimpressed with Tinkering for anything besides combo pieces.

I assume that this is merely for the steel city vault deck?
Are you sure that you are using the Tinker/Robot plan in the right match-ups at the right time?

[MirariKnight]

To be honest, I don't like the tinkerman-plan at all. Either it needs to win the turn you play it, or it needs to lock your opponent out the turn you play it. I've been playing around with Mycosynth Lattice as a tinker target but haven't been able to make it work yet. Thus far I'm unimpressed with Tinkering for anything besides combo pieces.

My friend is playing a Lattice/Null Rod Stax deck (admittedly it doesn't seem as good as regular Stax). When you have Lattice it's terrible without Rod, which you obviously don't want to have in this deck. Rod will likely be played against you, so I have no idea why you'd want to lock yourself out like that.
Combo pieces seem good (hence the Transmute Artifact) but I would never play this deck without a big dude somewhere in the 75 (maybe sideboard Sphinx for the G/x aggro matchup if you don't want to run something main).

[LordHomerCat]

If you need something to win the turn you play tinker... get Memory Jar.  That is why it is there.  If you can afford to spend a couple turns attacking or they have a null rod, I personally like the option to get a big monster.

[Mantis]

I have tested this deck a bit and so far I like it a lot, I did struggle with it quite a bit but after ~10 matches I feel like I have a pretty solid grasp on the deck. If people bring in Leyline of the Void or Planar Void you are up for quite a struggle, but that's why we have a sideboard. My testing partner exactly knew what I was playing and knew that Leyline was strong against the deck, so it might be entirely possible that people fail to bring in the Leylines that they did pack against us.

I tested Intuition and was really impressed, it was one of the cards I liked to see most. It basically says I win if you have Regrowth or Will in hand or a Welder on board. Windfall has been really bad in testing, I honestly never wanted to see it and it got cut for a second Intuition. The problem with the Intuitions is that you are going to become a lot more graveyard dependant and thus more vunerable post side. Having two spells to kill Confidant and Gorilla Shaman is really nice, I might replace the Darkblast by a second F/I however as it can be pitched to FoW. But with 2 Intuitions Darkblast might still be the best call, I'll just have to think about it some more.

The last change I made was replacing Inkwell by Sphinx as the only time thusfar I have cast Tinker for Inkwell was against Fish and I believe Sphinx is a bit stronger there as it's presence on the board means there is no way you can ever lose to Fish. I almost always used Tinker to either get a missing combo piece or Memory Jar which is probably the most busted card in this deck. The only reason I am still keeping a robot in is because you don't want to go to time if they ask you to play out your TV Key lock.  

Also, City of Brass is really sweet in this deck, very nice innovation.