[Single Card Discussion] Blood Ghast

[vroman]

let this be my equivalent of "First!" for calling what is probably obvious application.

creature 2/2
costs something
irrelevant combat abilities
"When you play a land return this from graveyard to play"

this finally allows for a legitimate post-ichorid ichorid deck, atleast for mana builds. icky can only be on the field turn 2 if its discarded off first bazaar tap, which is fairly narrow window. most the time icky is not in play until turn 3. however bloodguy can be dredged into yard on turn 2 upkeep/draw step and then a mainphase land drop will return all of them to play. this makes the odds of getting 3 guys up on turn 2 noticably more likely. between fatestitcher and bloodguy, the consistency of winning turn 2 undisrupted becomes virtually assured. possibly even run 1x dredge-land to assure returning bloodguys on turn 2.

although this tightens the bellcurve around turn 2 wins considerably, it does nothing to address the post-side slaughter dredge inevitably faces. so overall match strategy is not improved to a large degree.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The incentive to run lands makes it easier to conceive of a transformational sideboard.  Maybe B/g sui or something?

EDIT:
Even as a rough jumping off point, this is a sore failure.  Since Ichy runs 24+ creatures (that are very bad as non-dredgers), it's hard to board out enough of the deck.

// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  City of Brass
    1  Dakmor Salvage
    3  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    4  Ichorid
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    4  Narcomoeba
    3  Fatestitcher
    2  Flame-Kin Zealot
    1  Sadistic Hypnotist

// Spells
    4  Cabal Therapy
    4  Serum Powder
    3  Dread Return
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Bridge from Below
    4  Leyline of the Void
    3  Unmask

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Sarcomancy
SB: 3  Thoughtseize
SB: 4  Carnophage
SB: 4  Circling Vultures

[Razvan]

Just to put it down, this is the actual card:

Blood Extractor  
Creature - Vampire Spirit    Rare
Blood Extractor can't block.
Blood Extractor has haste if an opponent has 10 life or less.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may return Blood Extractor from your graveyard onto the battlefield.
2/1

The haste thing is not that irrelevant either, nice to have.

Anyway, Vroman's last sentence is more or less the barometer for any and each ichorid improvement: "it does nothing to address the post-side slaughter dredge inevitably faces.". But it's nice to see new creatures added, and let's recall that Fatestitcher went through a similar, is it good, is it bad phase, and this thing is "maybe" better, "maybe" worse, but definitely nice to at least try.

edit: heh, I just noticed how both Vroman and AmbivalentDuck have similar restrict/unrestrict messages in their signatures... ONE of which clashes with mine 

[Harlequin]

let this be my equivalent of "First!" for calling what is probably obvious application.

This thread begs to differ http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38737.0
Improvement Forum for the win!

[Stormanimagus]

Why is everyone limiting their discussion of this card to its applications in Ichorid? Imagine the following list:

Mono-Black Sui

Land (17):
4 Bloodstained Mire
7 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Cabal Pit

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
3 Pithing Needle
3 Skullclamp
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Creatures (8):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Blood Extractor   

Instants (9):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Diabolic Edict

Sorceries (12):
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Enchantments (5):
3 Bitterblossom
1 Necropotence
1 Gate To Phyrexia

SB
1 Crucible Of Worlds/??
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Darkblast
1 Duress
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Extirpate
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Gate To Phyrexia

The one glaring weakness of this deck would be its inability to run Null Rod, but the other synergies in the deck are undeniable. Skullclamp + Confidant, Extractor, and Bitterblossom all feed the storm count while serving as beatsticks. Extractor's ability to come back also give you inevitability against creature decks as you can have a lot of blockers every turn while you wait for that lethal tendrils. Gate To Phyrexia from the SB becomes a lot more viable when you have two engines that both produce a creature a turn (Blossom and Extractor + Land-drop). Pithing Needle, while being no Null Rod, does do very nice things for this deck. It hits Welders, Bazaars, Time Vault, and, perhaps most potently, Polluted Delta. Turn 1 blind Needle on Polluted Delta can be a very good play when you are on the play game 1.

Anyway, I'd like some thoughts on this possible decklist when everyone has the chance.

-Storm

[nataz]

Yay, I get to build a new ichorid deck. Since that's pretty much all I do in vintage anymore I find this card full of possibility. I'm going to go ahead and say that this may be a better card then ichorid in a dread return based deck. I suspect that its almost narco level good.

It has haste (sometimes) which is huge.
Its black to feed ichorid
multiple can trigger on one land
you can cabal therp, play a land, and do it again! - does not RFG (fate) or have zero hope of coming back (narco)

and its not like land is never played in ichorid. There is the obvious bazaar, and then: P-field, Gemstone/COB, Dyrad, Wasteland/Strip, and Cephalid have all seen play.
Sqeeeee! I'm so excited. Stupid grad school moving to stupid texas and not living in stupid NE anymore. Must find local vintage events.

I wanted cephalid to work but if we are going for the turn 2 win and not pushing the artifact mana b/c of extractor, mind as well go 5 color for the SB options.

more initial thoughts. If you are playing land, hopefully you are playing fatesticher. E-witness gets better as a dread return target because you can target lands -> more broken. Or you can play a build with no mana, and instead use the dredge land to make sure you always will hit a land. That to me looks interesting because the "mana-less" versions have more slots to play with.

So this is the list I was just goldfishing with. It has really consistant turn 2 dread returns. Ichorid was too slow to come out most games so I cut him for more disruption  om the form of unmask.


// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  City of Brass
    3  Dakmor Salvage
    4  Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
    4  Blood Pet
    4  Fatestitcher
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    4  Narcomoeba
    2  Sadistic Hypnotist
    4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp

// Spells
    4  Bridge from Below
    4  Cabal Therapy
    4  Chalice of the Void
    3  Dread Return
    4  Serum Powder
    4  Unmask

[scifiantihero]

Anyway, I'd like some thoughts on this possible decklist when everyone has the chance.

Fastbond seems like it would be very powerful in this deck without hurting a mana base much.

It would allow very combo-elf/gush -like plays

[Stormanimagus]

Anyway, I'd like some thoughts on this possible decklist when everyone has the chance.

Fastbond seems like it would be very powerful in this deck without hurting a mana base much.

It would allow very combo-elf/gush -like plays

That's a fascinating idea, but it might be overkill for what my deck is trying to do. I could see that being effective in a 1-2 Tendrils deck that also runs Loam/Entomb Engine. I dunno though. This card has muchas muchas posibilidades!

[policehq]

although this tightens the bellcurve around turn 2 wins considerably, it does nothing to address the post-side slaughter dredge inevitably faces. so overall match strategy is not improved to a large degree.

On the contrary, it is relatively easy to hardcast games 2 and 3 (much easier than the namesake) and doesn't require that you sacrifice it at the end of turn.

Noone has noted (in this thread) that you can also flashback multiple therapies per turn with this guy.

[nataz]

you can cabal therp, play a land, and do it again! - does not RFG (fate) or have zero hope of coming back (narco)

two posts up buddy.

[BruiZar]

This card is freaking awesome against stax

[Guli]

let this be my equivalent of "First!" for calling what is probably obvious application.

creature 2/2
costs something
irrelevant combat abilities
"When you play a land return this from graveyard to play"

What the hell is this vroman? This post really got me pissed. If you are going to start a topic friggin get the card right? It is not funny. As a reader I am offended by this nonsense. I had to scroll to get the correct wording of the card.

As for the card goes, the most natural home is ichorid. So dredge got himself a new pet to work with. Time will tell if it will be worth it. But I am not convinced about the clamp synergy inside a storm deck. To set it up you need to have clamp in play alongside the BE. Sure it is a nice draw engine mid game but I wonder how you will keep yourself alive untill then without null rod? Sure you can play massive amounts of duress/cabal/thoughtseize but those are strong when combined with null rod.

[The Dream Police]

What the hell is this vroman? This post really got me pissed. If you are going to start a topic friggin get the card right? It is not funny. As a reader I am offended by this nonsense. I had to scroll to get the correct wording of the card.

As for the card goes, the most natural home is ichorid. So dredge got himself a new pet to work with. Time will tell if it will be worth it. But I am not convinced about the clamp synergy inside a storm deck. To set it up you need to have clamp in play alongside the BE. Sure it is a nice draw engine mid game but I wonder how you will keep yourself alive untill then without null rod? Sure you can play massive amounts of duress/cabal/thoughtseize but those are strong when combined with null rod.
[/quote]

Whoa, someone didn't get their diapers changed. Calm down, atke your meds and take part in the discussion like a grown-up, kk?

This card is nuts with Skullclamp. I could see this being viable in a Sui-Black varient with Rits, Gougers, Hippies, Bobs, Clamps, and Goyfs for good measure.

If Ichorid doesn't play this card it will be because it's too hard to configure the deck for it, or it's just not worth it. Either way, some mana varient will take advantage of it.

[Bill Copes]

It's probably too situational and too hard to set up, but I would love to have a pair of these in the yard with a crucible and a smokestack set at 3, under multiple sphere effects.  Other than being free permanents every time you play a land, I see these being pretty terrible in a shop deck otherwise 

[nataz]

In non ichorid decks, why would this be better then myr sevitor (sp?)

[madmanmike25]

Because it does more dmg, potentially has haste, and doesn't need multiples to actually come back.  

Dredge is obv, but has anyone considered this guy in a B/U aggro deck?  Using Intuition seems interesting.  Confidants are a must naturally.

EDIT Yeah as Abdullah pointed out, I can see some syngergy with Crucibles and Bazaars with or without a Smokestack.

What about some Madness deck as well? You dont even need black mana.

Mike

[vroman]

What the hell is this vroman? This post really got me pissed. If you are going to start a topic friggin get the card right? It is not funny. As a reader I am offended by this nonsense. I had to scroll to get the correct wording of the card.

oh you had to scroll.
I had to go look at an entirely different webpage!
all of its stats are irrelevant for the aplication I was discussing. it could be a 7 cost 0/1 and it would still fill the same role in icky.

[Troy_Costisick]

I think it's obvious that this card has several applications.  We'll have to see if it's useful or not.  It's a challenging card to accomodate IMO.  A Dredge deck featuring this may need to be rebuilt from the ground up.  A Stax deck now have 4 less slots to play with.  Suicide Black or XG Beats has to decide what, if any, disruption to cut for it and would a 2/1 be worth it.  Or it could go in its won deck with something like Buried Alive and Fastbond.  Blood Extractor could go in any of those decks, but I don't know if it should.

[AmbivalentDuck]

You left out some sort of Intuition-Culling of the Meek-Clamp storm build with a very real fallback on pure aggro.

[vroman]

if you play this guy in mana-dredge, the synergy w undiscovered paradise is good. def better than gemstone mine

[nataz]

very interesting idea!

[bluemage55]

Just a note: it appears this card will be named Bloodghast.

Bloodghast   
Creature - Vampire Spirit 
Bloodghast can't block.
Bloodghast has haste if an opponent has 10 life or less.
2/1
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may return Bloodghast from your graveyard onto the battlefield.

[RecklessEmbermage]

You left out some sort of Intuition-Culling of the Meek-Clamp storm build with a very real fallback on pure aggro.

4 this
4 dark confidant
3 demigod of revenge
2 bitterblossom

3 skullclamp

4 intuition
4 dark ritual
3 culling the weak
3 tendrils

3 cabal therapy
3 duress

yawgwin
demonic
vampiric
mystical

5 wastes
8 fetches
7 duals/basics

Might be fun!

Could also be built to include force of will and accumulated knowledge, timewalk, a bit of bounce to up the blue count and null rod over clamp.

[Stormanimagus]

There was a juicy new card just spoiled by Mark Rosewater that I'd like to bring to everyone's attention:



In case that photo didn't work, here's the card:

Ob Nixilis, The Fallen    3

Legendary Creature — Demon

Landfall — Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your contorl, you may have target player lose 3 life. If you do, put three +1/+1 counters on Ob Nixilis, the Fallen.

3/3


I looked at this guy and thought to myself "OMFG you can make him a 9/9 the turn after you play him by dropping a fetch and fetching while also causing your opponent to lose 6 life!!!" This guy seems busted to me for Vintage if he see print at that magical 5 CMC. 6 CMC and he becomes pretty terrible, but 5 actually makes him an interesting alternative to Ritual-Storm based combo. I've already actually dreamt up a deck for this monster and I'd like some feedback on it:

Falling and Clamping

Land (18):
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
9 Swamp
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
3 Skullclamp
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle

Creatures (11):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodghast
3 Ob Nixilis, The Fallen

Instants (7):
4 Dark Ritual
3 Culling The Weak

Sorceries (12):
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn To Tourach

Enchantments (3):
3 Bitterblossom

SB
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Gate To Phyrexia
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Extirpate


Enjoy. This is a bit of a different approach to building Ritual based decks period so I won't be surprised if it is met with serious skepticism. I hope that the Landfall mechanic truly gives us something else to work with outside of Storm decks, Vault/Key decks and anti-vault Key Creature decks. Perhaps Landfall will be the next big mechanic in Vintage!

-Storm

EDIT: does anyone know how to upload JPEGs so they'll actually show up? It's not letting me do it by simply uploading image and dragging the JPEG to the box. ??? Help?

[BruiZar]

confirmed at  




ps:
Put your link in between [ img ] [ /img ] (without the spaces)

[Stormanimagus]

confirmed at  




ps:
Put your link in between [ img ] [ /img ] (without the spaces)

I tried that and it just showed up as text

[AmbivalentDuck]

Let's ignore landfall and pretend it's a much better card:

3BB, 9/9 (!!!!!)
During your second main phase, target opponent loses 6 life.

Explain how this is even mildly better than Tezzeret or Earwig Squad?

Both of those cards outright kill if not dealt with.  Ob Nixilis is just a fatty, however undercosted.  Even compare him to Tinker -> Sphinx Sovereign.  Heck, compare him to Tinker->DSC.  Even compare him to Yawg Bargain -> playing out your Rituals -> Tendrils.  And yes, he is effectively 6 mana if you have to hold back a fetch and play it after casting him.

[Stormanimagus]

Let's ignore landfall and pretend it's a much better card:

3BB, 9/9 (!!!!!)
During your second main phase, target opponent loses 6 life.

Explain how this is even mildly better than Tezzeret or Earwig Squad?

Both of those cards outright kill if not dealt with.  Ob Nixilis is just a fatty, however undercosted.  Even compare him to Tinker -> Sphinx Sovereign.  Heck, compare him to Tinker->DSC.  Even compare him to Yawg Bargain -> playing out your Rituals -> Tendrils.  And yes, he is effectively 6 mana if you have to hold back a fetch and play it after casting him.

You might be right, but there is no reason you have to hold up a sixth mana for him. All you need is a fetch for the following turn when you'll actually be able to swing in there with him. I do not doubt that the creatures you mentioned are good, but I'm saying that this guy would fit well into a deck running a lot of Rituals and no Tendrils kill. He's sorta the un-hate-able win condition I've been looking for now for a while. He's not like Inky, DSC or Sphinx in that he can be hard cast much easier and his ability causes the opponent to lose life so cards like Tangle Wire or Ensnaring Bridge do not stop him from working.

Don't think I haven't thought of the fact that other Win Conditions are better and for a smaller investment of mana, but he also does things that some of those cards DON'T do and gets around those cards do not (Hurkyl's Recall for one). Being able to make your opponent lose 3 life a turn (sometimes 6 if you fetch) is huge when you are trying to win post-infinite Duress effects.

Again, his home may NOT be in a deck designed to abuse him. Perhaps he'd fit as an alternate WC in TPS or something? I dunno, he just seems like a fascinating card that is asking to be abused.

-Storm

[MirariKnight]

I could maybe see him as a wincon in a b/g disruption deck with Null Rods, Wastes/Strip and Life from the Loam

[AmbivalentDuck]

You might be right, but there is no reason you have to hold up a sixth mana for him. All you need is a fetch for the following turn when you'll actually be able to swing in there with him.

Short of Fastbond tricks, he's not killing the turn after he's played unless you were able to play a land after casting him.  I can't think of a deck willing to wait 3 turns for its very Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth-able 5 CMC threat to kill.

The immediate "step up" is Hatred.  Just throw it on an unblocked Dark Confidant/Blood Ghast and win immediately.  No more vulnerable to Drain/bounce and you're unlikely to lose against Drain/bounce decks due to lack of life...I'd worry far more about their Vault combo.