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Author Topic: [Discussion] Goblins  (Read 110521 times)
RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2009, 04:34:19 pm »

Does this look completely crazy? The idea kinda appeals to me:

"One-dimentional goblin deck"

24 Creatures:

4 lackey
4 prospector
4 fanatic
3 frogtosser banneret
1 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 earwig squad

12 Spells:
4 therapy
4 duress
2 bitter ordeal
1 demonic consultation
1 warren weirding

24 Mana:

3 simian spirit guide
3 chrome mox  (or power, if you got it)
1 lotus petal
8 red fetches (randomised if that's your style, or accomodating a splash in the sideboard)
3 badlands
1 mountain
4 wasteland
1 stripmine

Sideboard:
1 sharpshooter
2 ringleader
1 recruiter
3 war marshal
1 yawgwin
2 pyroblast
1 reb
4 leyline of the void

Maindeck does one thing: Cap turn two. That basically covers tezz, tendrils and oath.

Against aggro, the deck can side in a sharpshooter combo-package for 4 duress, 1 therapy, 2 ordeal and consultation. It's good for killing other tribes and utility bears and can go straight to the head when opposing goyfs.

Same goes for ichorid, though I suspect that match-up can be pretty rough. Leylines go in for the 3 remaining therapies and a fetch or something, since your mana is safe.

In my experience, the stax match-up is good enough to not need much dedicated sideboard. 3 war marshals in for 3 bitter ordeal should do the trick. Leylines could go in too, but I'm not sure that's worth digging into the engine against stax.

The deck should handle oath pretty well on the play, with hand disruption and counters in the side, but will loose to a resolved turn one oath on the draw.


Pretty ugly, but might work.


EDIT: -1 chrome, +1 petal, -1 yawgwin, +1 weirding. (sideboard: +1 yagwin, -1 REB)
EDIT2: -1 warchief, +1 banneret
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 08:30:00 pm by RecklessEmbermage » Logged
AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2009, 05:03:38 pm »

The Ichorid matchup would be solid due to the ease of killing bridges.

IF you're going that route, a few suggestions:
1. You have to be able to deal with "racing." If they know your plan and tutor aggressively, you're in trouble.
-Run at least some answers to common win conditions.
2. Blood Pet >> Fanatic if your goal is turn 2 Bitter Ordeal.
3. Frogtosser >> Warchief.  Again, you're tuning for speed.
4. Badlands, Mox -> Frogtosser is sufficient to cast Squad the next turn.
5. Black Lotus and Lotus Petal are strictly better than Chrome Mox once gravestorm comes up as a topic of discussion.
6. We have two brutal anti-aggro cards: Lightning Crafter and Wort (BR).  Jitte is also a solid answer to Ichorid.
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« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2009, 06:15:59 pm »

The Ichorid matchup would be solid due to the ease of killing bridges.

IF you're going that route, a few suggestions:
1. You have to be able to deal with "racing." If they know your plan and tutor aggressively, you're in trouble.
-Run at least some answers to common win conditions.
2. Blood Pet >> Fanatic if your goal is turn 2 Bitter Ordeal.
3. Frogtosser >> Warchief.  Again, you're tuning for speed.
4. Badlands, Mox -> Frogtosser is sufficient to cast Squad the next turn.
5. Black Lotus and Lotus Petal are strictly better than Chrome Mox once gravestorm comes up as a topic of discussion.
6. We have two brutal anti-aggro cards: Lightning Crafter and Wort (BR).  Jitte is also a solid answer to Ichorid.


1: Tinker can be solved with one maindeck warren weirding. (This doesn't help much against oath, but can give you a chance at capping if you can assemble enough mana for doing both in the same turn. It also deals with the fourth oath creature if they board it in)

2: Fanatic is good in a whole range of match-ups. The synergy with ordeal gives it the slight push it needs to be included.

3: Warchief is a nod to sharpshooter, and I'd play minimum 1. 1 warchief and 3 frogtosser makes sense though (I've been happy with that configuration before).

5: Run lotus if you can. I play non-proxy. You're right about the petal though. 3 chrome mox is already quite taxing.

6: I had written off lightning crafter as absolute crap, but rereading it makes me want to test it. Chaining goblins with prospector while shooting things up is fun though and very potent. It incidentally makes the stax metch-up even better (because of the war marshals).

How much of a package does wort need to be good?

How is jitte good vs ichorid? It seems way slow.
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2009, 06:34:28 pm »

6: I had written off lightning crafter as absolute crap, but rereading it makes me want to test it. Chaining goblins with prospector while shooting things up is fun though and very potent. It incidentally makes the stax metch-up even better (because of the war marshals).
There's a legacy-relevant combo: Lightning Crafter + Kiki-Jiki + Prospector is a kill.  Kiki copies Crafter, who exiles kiki, shoots your opponent, then gets sacced to prospector, bringing Kiki back into play to target Crafter again.  Also, a 3/3 butt is plenty large enough to take down Goyf when combined with his tap ability.  I prefer Jitte, but he's not horrible.

Quote
How much of a package does wort need to be good?
Wort + Matron gives you two cards every turn.  Matron chump blocks and fetches up an army.

Quote
How is jitte good vs ichorid? It seems way slow.
You can safely assume that you've stalled them until turn 2-3 via Leyline or Prospector.  Jitte answers their hardcast creatures and lets you deal with Narcomoeba.

Stack:
Bazaar -> dredge 10-18
->Narcs on stack
->Sac something, or Jitte your own lackey/vandal/frogtosser

->Narcs on stack
->Bridges are gone

->Narcs on stack

->Jitte Narcs, opponent never has opportunity to Dread Return them if they don't Bazaar in their main phase.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 06:42:02 pm by AmbivalentDuck » Logged

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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2009, 06:56:54 pm »

6: I had written off lightning crafter as absolute crap, but rereading it makes me want to test it. Chaining goblins with prospector while shooting things up is fun though and very potent. It incidentally makes the stax metch-up even better (because of the war marshals).
There's a legacy-relevant combo: Lightning Crafter + Kiki-Jiki + Prospector is a kill.  Kiki copies Crafter, who exiles kiki, shoots your opponent, then gets sacced to prospector, bringing Kiki back into play to target Crafter again.  Also, a 3/3 butt is plenty large enough to take down Goyf when combined with his tap ability.  I prefer Jitte, but he's not horrible.

Quote
How much of a package does wort need to be good?
Wort + Matron gives you two cards every turn.  Matron chump blocks and fetches up an army.

Quote
How is jitte good vs ichorid? It seems way slow.
You can safely assume that you've stalled them until turn 2-3 via Leyline or Prospector.  Jitte answers their hardcast creatures and lets you deal with Narcomoeba.

Stack:
Bazaar -> dredge 10-18
->Narcs on stack
->Sac something, or Jitte your own lackey/vandal/frogtosser

->Narcs on stack
->Bridges are gone

->Narcs on stack

->Jitte Narcs, opponent never has opportunity to Dread Return them if they don't Bazaar in their main phase.

If you land leyline, setting up a sharpshooter engine seems like a better option than spending four mana on getting jitte active. If you don't land leyline, I have some trouble envisioning jitte being remotely fast enough. Dying goblins, and particularly fantaics, should be good though.

I have read a whole lot on ichorid and think I know how to deal with it, but I must admit I have no experience playing against it.

Though wort and lightning crafter are cute and surely very good if not dealt with, they seem weak to spot removal. A sharpshooter with haste in a deck that runs prospectors and yawgwin is a very dangerous weapon and even if it's pathed or fired, it tends to take the whole opposing team with it.

I have no time for testing now, but when I do, I'll give wort and lightning crafter a chance to convince me.
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« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2009, 07:17:06 pm »

How is Yawg Win?  That's the one card in your list I've never tried/considered.  It seems very very dead early on, but bombtastic later.  Given the difficulty of attaining a high mana count with this list, would Grim Discovery be equivalent?
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« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2009, 08:19:18 pm »

How is Yawg Win?  That's the one card in your list I've never tried/considered.  It seems very very dead early on, but bombtastic later.  Given the difficulty of attaining a high mana count with this list, would Grim Discovery be equivalent?

Whenever I've played yawgwin in goblins, I've played rituals too. It can't be expected to be as good in a deck that plays no rituals, but I think 4 prospectors is enough to atleast test it.

Game one, yawgwin can be used in the midgame as a grim discovery for 3 that almost always is considerably bigger (gives you 3-4 cards instead of two). The later you play it, the better it gets.

After boarding in the goblin chain however, I expect it (because I haven't tried it in goblins without rituals) to double the amount of damage you get from sharpshooter or give you a winning position from basically wherever you were at before you played it.

It is a concession to match-ups where the mid- to late game actually matters. Maybe it belongs in the sideboard. That would depend on how it plays in the maindeck.

Hmm. I think I'll actually move it to the side for now. That would make room for a warren weirding.

EDIT: I'm unfamiliar with matron. I've played against it some, but have always run recruiter myself. I recognice that matron is clearly better in this deck, but how many should I run, 3 or 4? (I'm considering to cut a matron for a fourth banneret or the yawgwin I just cut).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 08:33:21 pm by RecklessEmbermage » Logged
AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2009, 06:12:53 pm »

I honestly think you should start with my list
Vandals -> Fanatics
Blood Crypts, a Mountain, and the Swamp -> 4 fetches
1 Chieftain, 2 Weirding -> Bitter Ordeal

I'm still not convinced I want any maindeck.  I think I'm changing my SB to bring them in over Null Rod in matchups where speed matters more than anything else (like Oath).

@Matron, she's incredibly solid and you won't be disappointed with her interaction with Wort.  Nobody runs targeted removal that can kill a 3/3.  She chumps goyfs, and fetches both Jester's Cap and Cruel Edict.  I'd run 4.

Also, test out chieftain.  I'm certain you'll find that he's better than Warchief who suffers from "Princess Lucrezia" syndrome: who wants the most expensive card in their deck to produce mana?  You want the high end of your curve to swiftly end the game.
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« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2009, 07:31:31 pm »

I honestly think you should start with my list
Vandals -> Fanatics
Blood Crypts, a Mountain, and the Swamp -> 4 fetches
1 Chieftain, 2 Weirding -> Bitter Ordeal

I'm still not convinced I want any maindeck.  I think I'm changing my SB to bring them in over Null Rod in matchups where speed matters more than anything else (like Oath).

@Matron, she's incredibly solid and you won't be disappointed with her interaction with Wort.  Nobody runs targeted removal that can kill a 3/3.  She chumps goyfs, and fetches both Jester's Cap and Cruel Edict.  I'd run 4.

Also, test out chieftain.  I'm certain you'll find that he's better than Warchief who suffers from "Princess Lucrezia" syndrome: who wants the most expensive card in their deck to produce mana?  You want the high end of your curve to swiftly end the game.

It seems we have different perceptions when evaluating these cards: I have played goblins as a combo deck against aggro whenever possible, and the "mana" from warchief wins the game more swiftly than the pump from chieftain when you factor sharpshooter and yawgwin in.

Similarly, playing control with wort seems quite scetchy in my meta, since there is quite a lot of stps, bolts and even slover cards like putrefy and vindicate around. You could argue that sharpshooter dies to the same cards, but if you play it with a nimble hand, you still get to blow up lots and lots of stuff with it.

Going for the combo kill is gready though, and if I'm contemplating putting most of it in the board, it may well be better to go for a more boardcontrol and swarm approach, where chieftain would be very good. Either that or side in 3-4 goblin goon. Having a total of 7-8 big grunts in the deck is a strategy that I really like against aggro. So far, this role has been covered by knucklebone witch (which is amazing with prospectors, war marshals and clamps) but since I take away the engine, goons seems like a compact and efficient board against aggro.

Bitter ordeals and fanatic is a pretty extreme way to take the deck and one that can only be argued for if the meta is chock full of decks with few win-cons that will be faster than goblins if not disrupted. For my own part, this could happen with my meta being through and through infected by oath, which I hope will not happen.

,,,

When comparing our lists, the main differences are that you play power, where I don't (I play non-proxy and on a budget) and you play piledrivers and both vandals and fanatics where I play hand disruption. These are two sides of the same coin: Your meta is heavy with moxen (I'd guess), while mine isn't. That way, you can play faster beatdown than me and disrupt with vandals while you do it (I have tested vandal and I like it, but even in match-ups where it's good, it's hard for me to pay its activation while developing the board). I will have more time to set up a cap (about a turn, I'd guess), and prefer using a therapy/duress to make sure it lands, giving up speed in the process.

So no, I don't think I could start with your list and take it from there, but I really appreciate sharing ideas.
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« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2009, 12:08:47 am »

Sharpshooter plus War Marshall is a combo?  I guess I don't understand that aspect.  I can certainly see the utility of bringing in Marshalls against stax, so I'm interested to hear how you're doing this.
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« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2009, 07:16:21 am »

Sharpshooter plus War Marshall is a combo?  I guess I don't understand that aspect.  I can certainly see the utility of bringing in Marshalls against stax, so I'm interested to hear how you're doing this.

This is the last goblin deck I played at a tournament: http://essentialmagic.com/decks/View.asp?ID=694337

It uses aether vial and lackey to put recruiters and ringleaders into play and rituals to pay for clamp, saccing goblins while sharpshooter shoots the opponent. I tested prospectors in the deck, but opted in the end not to run them, because while fun, drawing the entire library was win-more. A shorter burst of goblins and draw from skullclamp was generally what was needed to win.

However: If you put prospector into the equation, you can forego the arguably more powerful skullclamp and set up the combo with a single recruiter:

1 prospector, 1 warchief and 4 lands in play.
Play recruiter for ringleader, war marshal, sharpshooter, war marshal, ringleader, fanatic, lackey, fanatic, war marshal.

Next turn, pay 3 for ringleader, draw 4 goblins, pay 1 for marshal (all lands now tapped), sac marshal and a token and play sharpshooter...

...(1 dmg) sac a token (2 dmg) to play another marshal. Sac marshal and two tokens (5 dmg) to play ringleader, draw 4. Sac ringleader (6 dmg) for fanatic, fanatic (7dmg) for lackey, lackey (8 dmg) for fanatic, fanatic (9 dmg) for war marshal. If that isn't enough, sac marshal and tokens for 3 more damage and play whatever you have at hand. If the deck plays more than two ringleaders, you can extend the chain of course.

But if your opponent kills warchief or prospector or counters ringleader after you've resolved recruiter, you're in heaps of trouble. I can't count how many times during testing I recruitered myself into a corner and lost from there. That's mostly due to lack of skill though.

Since this list isn't going to run clamps and vials, including the recruiter chain is beginning to look like a bad idea to me. Some redundancy in broken tools is needed to make the combo go off regularly. It would probably need the whole sideboard to get high enough redundancy. So it's going out.
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« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2009, 03:34:14 pm »

Hello everyone,

I'm bringing my friend, who knows little about vintage, but plenty about legacy goblins to a vintage event in the near future. I know a fair amount about vintage, but nothing about goblins. As a result, neither of us is really equipped to decide which list is best to run cold at a vintage tournament. My expectation is that the metagame will consist of Oath, Tezz and landstill, with some shops, some storm and some ichorid. I figure rods and squads are in order, but as far as the rest of the list is concerned I'm at a loss. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks
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« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2009, 06:05:45 pm »

I'm bringing my friend, who knows little about vintage, but plenty about legacy goblins to a vintage event in the near future.
Vintage goblins is a Jester's Cap deck.  If you don't take the right cards, you won't be winning.  That requires knowing decklists.  It's also a relatively hard deck to pick the right role with.

Steve's GW "not-fish" deck is probably a much better choice for a player familiar with legacy but new to our format.
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« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2009, 07:08:14 pm »

I'm bringing my friend, who knows little about vintage, but plenty about legacy goblins to a vintage event in the near future.
Vintage goblins is a Jester's Cap deck.  If you don't take the right cards, you won't be winning.  That requires knowing decklists.  It's also a relatively hard deck to pick the right role with.

Steve's GW "not-fish" deck is probably a much better choice for a player familiar with legacy but new to our format.
I disagree. R/G Goblins can compete against a lot of stuff. Goblins takes aggro, Ancient Grudge is really good in this format, combo isn't so much of an issue...
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« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2009, 11:15:31 am »

There's this format called legacy that pretty solidly proves that "Goblins takes aggro" is false.  Goblins was *the* undisputed king of legacy until the printing of tarmogoyf.  Now it's absent from Legacy t8s.
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« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2009, 01:16:42 pm »

A) Looking through this thread, there are no changes in the R/b list that address the Tarmogoyf problem.
B) You can't use data from other formats to create arguments in Vintage. I should restate: when you're not worried about trying to remove three cards from your opponent's library, you can create a Goblin build that beats Aggro and has room still for hate against Tez and Stax.
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« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2009, 01:39:52 pm »

or you can cap the goyfs
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« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2009, 05:31:00 pm »

B) You can't use data from other formats to create arguments in Vintage. I should restate: when you're not worried about trying to remove three cards from your opponent's library, you can create a Goblin build that beats Aggro and has room still for hate against Tez and Stax.
I'm saying that Legacy goblins BUILT to fight aggro can't do it.  Once you add "dead" cards like Null Rods, it's a foregone conclusion.  Your only advantage is that Vintage is very removal-light, so you can run bombs like Wort.

Also, you have about a 0% chance of beating Oath without cap effects.
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« Reply #78 on: December 17, 2009, 06:24:35 am »

I don't really agree.

Wort + Warren Weirding is an edict every turn
Earwig is a 5/3, which is also big for cards like Goyf, even if that means trading.

I don't think I'd neccesarily agree on running Bitter Ordeal and so many Duress effects though. I would test Goblin Settler to mess with Workshop, Bazaar and Tabernacle as well as Tolarian Academy or just random colorscrewing. It works even better with Null Rod / Kiki Jiki as a way to hardlock your opponent out of the game. I don't think you need so many cap effects, its better to have a more resilient control build, that doesn't rely on a one trick pony such as capping.

Earwig is a bomb on it's own because the times where there isn't much to cap it's still a 4 turn clock, just like negator.
Fanatic kills bridges, confidants selkies, narco's, ichorids, welders and hierarchs
I don't like Goblin Vandal because Null Rod deals with all the artfacts you want to deal with except for Trinisphere and Smokestack and Tangle Wire which you can circumvent through Lackey. I think I would side in Goblin Welders if artifacts where a real problem to me.
Warren Weirding / Wort is your solution to tinker + aggro
Goblin Piledriver, while he only beats, is the biggest goblin you're going to get, growing much bigger than a goyf will ever get, and he has protection from Inkwell and Sower of Temptation and Old Man of the Sea.
With these sort of tools, how can it be so bad against aggro?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 06:30:13 am by BruiZar » Logged
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« Reply #79 on: December 17, 2009, 12:45:13 pm »

Look, if you run 4x Sharpshooter and 4x Lightning Crafter, you could conceivable go almost 100% against aggro.  The problem is that the best cards against control are 1/1s (that feed your turn 2 cap effect).  So you end up with a deck that can't trade well in combat.  You can fix that by including Wort and Chieftains (which I do), but the deck is far from ideal in a fish-heavy meta.

Vandal vs maindeck rods is a metagame call.  Vandals are truly a nightmare for stax and do plenty of splash damage to Tez on top of being solid turn 1 drops to feed Squad.


Also, since the thread has already been necromanced, there's a new printing that might make this deck tier 1:
Bazaar Trader, 1 {R}
Creature - Goblin, 1/1, Rare
Ability text unknown

If it does anything remotely like Bazaar, particularly "Landfall - Draw 2, Discard 3", then the Scrubbing Bubbles decision to include Cabal Therapy is *absolutely* correct.  Particularly since you could turn 1, Mox, land, Trader.  Turn 2, fetch, landfall twice, attack, flashback therapy naming FoW (especially given the irrelevance of spell pierce), and play the Earwig Squad that's now almost certainly in your hand.
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« Reply #80 on: December 17, 2009, 07:38:56 pm »

Thanks for the input, but I really don't think it's that difficult to pick your cap targets against most decks. Regardless, he's going to play goblins. Is the list in the initial post still your recommendation?

Also, regarding legacy goblins, that deck is actually quite strong. Tarmogoyf trumped the old builds and rather than adjust, goblin players kind of just threw their hands up and started playing goyfs themselves. Nowadays, though, between new goblins, relics, and new builds, legacy gobbos has a much easier time battling green monsters.
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« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2009, 08:32:32 pm »

Not necessarily the best build, and I have no interest in fighting about card choices since I'd play Vroman-Oath in the current meta...but this is the list I'd hand a friend like the one you described.

// Lands
    4  Badlands
    4  Bloodstained Mire
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Swamp
    2  Mountain
    1  Wooded Foothills
    1  Arid Mesa
    2  Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
    2  Goblin Chieftain
    1  Wort, Boggart Auntie
    4  Earwig Squad
    4  Goblin Vandal
    4  Goblin Piledriver
    4  Goblin Matron
    4  Frogtosser Banneret
    4  Goblin Lackey
    2  Skirk Prospector

// Spells
    4  Warren Weirding
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mox Emerald

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 3  Bitter Ordeal
SB: 3  Ancient Grudge
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1  Taiga
SB: 2  Gempalm Incinerator
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 09:03:39 pm by AmbivalentDuck » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: December 18, 2009, 06:53:53 am »

I'd agree on Ambivalent's decklist, it looks solid.
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« Reply #83 on: December 18, 2009, 08:41:53 am »

Thanks! I'll let you know how he does.
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« Reply #84 on: December 18, 2009, 11:53:47 am »

So, I tested the list online a bit.  The maindeck is solid.  The sb needs some changes:

SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 4  Bitter Ordeal
SB: 3  Null Rod
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2  Gempalm Incinerator

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« Reply #85 on: December 24, 2009, 01:40:16 am »

A couple points:

1) http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39512.0
Check out Prospero's latest Tournament Report: TWO Goblins lists featuring good Goblins and no prowling Jester's Caps made top 8. The metagame was approximately 1/6th aggro of some kind, and these two aggro lists placed higher than any other variant (Shop Aggro, BUG Fish, etc.). Black is included, instead, for Warren Weirding, it seems.

2) Duncan recently played GWSx featuring 3 Sadistic Sacraments in Europe, and in most match-ups (all but one on his way to a 1st/2nd split), he sides out the Sacraments in favor of other cards after game 1. How relevant is this effect, exactly, and if you still claim that it is very relevant, why not try to achieve it with greater consistency by playing black and using Bitter Ordeal and Sadistic Sacrament with Rituals? Then again, it really isn't relevant, so don't bother coming up with an argument for Goblins in this case.

I've made these points already, and so have others, but now there's some data to bring them home (and not much data for your cases).
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« Reply #86 on: December 24, 2009, 03:23:38 am »

The SadSacs were pretty relevant in testing against various decks, especially Storm. He just didn't face the decks where Sacrement is relevant against. I played in the same tournament and faced TPS 2x, Drain Tendrills and would have faced Almost Blue but we could ID in. We predicted the metagame fairly accurately as there was lots of Storm and I personally still believe Sacrement maindeck was the right call (we did underestimate the amount of Shop decks though, if we knew Duncan might have fiddled around with a few slots).

Just wanted to let you know, as this point should certainly not be the reason to not include Earwig Squad.
Goblins in Vintage is a metagame deck, it's definately not tier 1, but instead should be built to prey upon these decks.

For an extremely solid lategame I had the following idea, just play 1 Goblin Recruiter and 1 Ringleader, it's a bit mana intensive but in a war of attrition this means you Matrons could be converted into 7 cards for 1 (even more if you search up Matrons with your Ringleader). I don't know what to cut, but probably a Chieftain and a Warren Weirding, it kind of depends on your metagame.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 06:39:16 am by Mantis » Logged
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« Reply #87 on: December 26, 2009, 02:55:16 am »

A couple points:
...

I don't mean to rain on your parade. But, there is more going on in this tournament than you imply. Both goblin decklist are the same MD and piloted by teammates returning to vintage from hiatus. If you actually look at the Top 8 you see that main deck Jester's Cap effects look very, very strong. The more constructive dialogue would be on the player's card choices or, to a lesser extent, if B/R would have been better than G/R.

You are off topic again, but this time with irrelevant information for 3 reasons:
1. You describe the European metagame (which I understand to be very wasteland heavy ATM)
2. You give no information at all on why Duncan makes this choice or what he sides in.
3. You are, again, discussing a different deck/archetype than the thread title while your point has been analyzed, discussed, and rebuted earlier in the thread.

Now, onto constructive thoughts...
The meta looks pretty diverse and mabye slightly Tezz light. Top 8 is 2 Oath, 2 Tezz, and Red Shops (non-aggro). This seems very good for the B/R decks that have been discussed. I find the MD artifact mutations to be strange, but an instant answer to Timevault is needed. This is a more old school list with Warchiefs and Siege Gang without any combo stuff. This list should power through Fish decks. This is 3 color goblins! Both sideboards are rather light on dredge answers: 1 Jailer plus 4x utility GY cards. 3x Hull Breach/Krosan Grip were not enough (apparently) to win the Oath match up.

I've always like Chalice or Null Rod in my gobs list, but it might not be needed. The exclusion improves Fish matchups which is needed game 1.

If Earwig is going to be a priority, 9 1cc goblins are a must. After 4 Lackeys that leaves 5 slots.
Goblin Vandal - Great against Stax, ok as mana denial
Skirk Prospector - Auto include in combo goblins, good with Earwig and some sideboard options
Mogg Fanatic - Great against Fish and Bob and Bridge from Below
random aggro guys - Classic goblin beats

At least 1 Prospector is a must as an accelerant and combo-enabler with some of the sideboard plans discussed. The other slots go to Fanatic as he is relevant against at least 3 archtypes. Vandal is tempting with the lack of Chalice or Null Rod, but he doesn't really help against multiple artifact mana early.
What is the correct number of Warren Weirding? Since it's tutorable, I think 1-4 depending on the meta game.

I'm leaning toward Sharpshooter main with the 3x Frogtosser / 1x Warchief suggestion. This helps Fish and gives a pretty good chance of pushing 10 damage or to an opponent.

// Lands 21
    4  Badlands
    1  Taiga
    4  Bloodstained Mire
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Swamp
    2  Mountain
    4  Wooded Foothills

// Creatures 30
    1  Wort, Boggart Auntie
    4  Earwig Squad
    4  Mogg Fanatic
    4  Goblin Piledriver
    4  Goblin Matron
    3  Frogtosser Banneret
    1  Goblin Warchief / Frogtosser Banneret
    4  Goblin Lackey
    1  Skirk Prospector
    1  Goblin Sharpshooter / Goblin Ringleader
    1  Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker / Goblin Ringleader
    2  Vexing Shusher / Goblin Ringleader

// Spells 9
    2  Warren Weirding
    1  Demonic Consultation
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Lotus Petal

SB:
    4 Thoughtsieze / Crypt, Relic, Extirpate, Faerie Macabre
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Seal of Primordium
    1 Artifact Mutation
    2 Warren Weirding

This sideboard is crap. I would really like to see Sol Ring main if there is no Null Rod in the deck as it makes Ring Leader really good. Can the deck afford 1 Taiga? Seal is really good against Oath and helps out with Stax and Vault decks. I don't think we can rely on it for the latter two. I like the idea of Goon against Fish and possibly Stax.
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« Reply #88 on: December 26, 2009, 07:41:43 am »

I think that prospector should be run as a 3 or 4 of. not only does he accelerate your turn 2 earwig without any power, he activates it too. and in the side, I'd run ancient grudge over mutation. it is bomb against stax and time vault.

heres what i would suggest:

- 2 fanatic
- kiki jiki
- crypt
-lotus petal
-1 land
-1 ringleader
1- matron
-1 sharpshooter

+ 2-3 prospector
+ 3-4 null rod
+ 3-4 Thoughtseize

That leaves you with 24 mana, not including prospector. some more could probably be shaved off that. I'd add in vandals. Now, with rod, your mana denial plan is much stronger, and doesn't really affect you. your game against time vault also just rose dramatically. Late game, you still have ringleader and wort to search up, one for instant gratification, one for recursion. Matrons are a little mana intensive, so I don't usually run more than 3.

instead of paying 3 mana to protect a spell, you could just pay 1 and play thoughtseize.

edit:

if you wanted to play a really 1d goblins deck, what about somethin like this:

5 strip
5-6 fetch
3 badlands
2 taiga
2 mountain

3 mox
1 lotus

(21 permanent mana)

4 lackey
3 prospector
3 ssg
3 frogtosser

2 matron
1 ringleader

4 piledriver
4 earwig

2 warren weirding
2 vandal
2 mogg fanatic
1 tin-street

3 rod
3 thoughtseize
2 therapy

ssg allows for turn 2 squad, as does a turn 1 prospector. ssg also lays rod turn 1, and turn 1 frogtosser also puts turn 2 squad up. there is also lots of disruption so if turn 2 squad isn't possible, you can still do something turn 1 other that play a prospector, go.

I removed the wort because it seems real slow. you don't get anything useful back unless they have a lot of creatures and you need weirding. I guess it is good versus goyf, but not that good.

As i already said, I think that matron is really mana intensive for a card that just searches for goblins. I think some are needed, though, like to find weirdings or tin-street or something.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 10:21:17 am by the boogie man » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: December 26, 2009, 08:57:48 am »


3. You are, again, discussing a different deck/archetype than the thread title while your point has been analyzed, discussed, and rebuted earlier in the thread.

Read the title again. If it helps, let me be explicit: I'm discussing Goblins, but as an Aggro deck where you leave Frogtosser Bannerets and Earwig Squads at home, like any competitive Goblins list.

Show me results beyond winning a 4-man tournament against counter-wall.dec. The majority of Goblins list I see in ANY meta feature Taigas, or a combination of Taiga and Badlands.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 09:02:36 am by policehq » Logged
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