Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future

[MoonDark]

Hello guys, I'm wondering how do you play or what tweaks would you make to this list in order to face Oath of Druids, in my Meta that's the mostly played deck and I still can't figure out the best SB strategy, or if my list is actually good against them.

Here's my list:

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bloodghast
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Serum Powder
3 Ichorid
3 Fatestitcher
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Golgari Thug
3 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Sharuum the Hegemon
1 Altar of Dementia
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Possessed Portal
3 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard
4 Force of Will
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth

Against oath I would like to add +15 SB cards, still not sure if this is the best SB/list against them,

What do you guys think ?

[Adan]

Hello guys, I'm wondering how do you play or what tweaks would you make to this list in order to face Oath of Druids, in my Meta that's the mostly played deck and I still can't figure out the best SB strategy, or if my list is actually good against them.

Here's my list:

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bloodghast
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Serum Powder
3 Ichorid
3 Fatestitcher
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Golgari Thug
3 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Sharuum the Hegemon
1 Altar of Dementia
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Possessed Portal
3 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Seat of the Synod

Sideboard
4 Force of Will
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth

Against oath I would like to add +15 SB cards, still not sure if this is the best SB/list against them,

What do you guys think ?

Don't run the Sharuum Engine then, just play 2 Ceph Sage and 1 Flame-Kin. You can then cut Lotus, LED, Altar and Portal for stuff like Unmask.
And then you just run 5color lands instead of Coliseums and the Seat and play a different SB with Chains, Grudges, Wispmares or Emerald Charms (preferably Emerald Charm because they can speed you up).

Overall with that config, you should be faster than Oath in any case, the only thing they can hope for is to open with Mox Orchard Oath on the play and then Time Walk or they have one of their ~3 Stripeffects (If they play Strips at all).

[Ravager Sam]

Hello guys, I'm wondering how do you play or what tweaks would you make to this list in order to face Oath of Druids, in my Meta that's the mostly played deck and I still can't figure out the best SB strategy, or if my list is actually good against them.
What do you guys think ?

I would venture to guess their chance of winning game one comes from the 7% chance you don't mull to a bazaar and the 1-2% chance they manage to draw a hand so godly they can win before you (t1 vault + key or the aforementioned oath + time walk).  With an insane hand like that, all you can really do to stop them is t1 unmask on the play; if you are on the draw there's nothing you can do.  That being said, having unmasks instead of ichorid/sharuum engine could be beneficial.  And of course, all the 1 mana answers to oath/iona/permanents can go a long way.

[DaveKap]

How has Spell Pierce tested against Ravenous Trap/Crypt/Relic for everyone? I feel that it has the potential to replace Unmask, as it compliments FoW nicely.

[Adan]

How has Spell Pierce tested against Ravenous Trap/Crypt/Relic for everyone? I feel that it has the potential to replace Unmask, as it compliments FoW nicely.

Spell Pierce sounds like an interesting idea since it gives you the possibility to deal with Mystical/Vampiric/Imperial Seal as well. Howver, you have to consider that Unmask is a free spell and is a house on the play where Spell Pierce just isn't, you won't be able to Bazaar and then have Spell Pierce against... a Needle or something (at least if you don't play with Lotus, Mox Sapphire, Petal).

I guess this is also the reason why you play 4 Forces and 4 Unmasks SB, because Forces are better on the draw. In case you should lose it, you switch them for Unmasks bcause you will be on the play again and that's where Unmask shines.

[DaveKap]

How has Spell Pierce tested against Ravenous Trap/Crypt/Relic for everyone? I feel that it has the potential to replace Unmask, as it compliments FoW nicely.

Spell Pierce sounds like an interesting idea since it gives you the possibility to deal with Mystical/Vampiric/Imperial Seal as well. Howver, you have to consider that Unmask is a free spell and is a house on the play where Spell Pierce just isn't, you won't be able to Bazaar and then have Spell Pierce against... a Needle or something (at least if you don't play with Lotus, Mox Sapphire, Petal).

I guess this is also the reason why you play 4 Forces and 4 Unmasks SB, because Forces are better on the draw. In case you should lose it, you switch them for Unmasks bcause you will be on the play again and that's where Unmask shines.

After playtesting enough I do agree that having a blue open on the first five turns is unlikely.

In a metagame full of dredge, would Leyline substitute well for 4 Unmask?

[Quasimodo]

Would Firestorm:
R, instant
As an additional cost to cast Firestorm, discard X cards.
Firestorm deals X damage to each of X target creatures and/or players.

be playable in this build against Fish, Oath, Jailer, as a Bloodghast sac outlet/haste enabler, or for something else?  With the 2 players and a creature target (Orchard token, Jailer, Fish creatures), you could do up to 3 damage while binning graveyard pieces.  I know it was mentioned in the old thread but really didn't go anywhere then...

[Parcher]

Unsurprisingly, I'm a big fan of both Firestorm and Gargadon. But due to mana requirements, I don't think that they can fit well in Manaless Ichorid.

What I have been running in the SB to shore up that slot is Drowned Rusalka. It's a pretty crappy card, I know. But it does have several benefits assuming that you side out the Sharuum package.

1. Pitches to FOW. Very relevant with the Blue card count.
2. Can be cast using Blue.
3. Basically negates Oath if you are careful.
4. Gives both a(weaker) draw, and discard outlet should Bazaar be removed/Needled.
5. An additional one-mana creature.
6. Can sac Bloodghasts to get tokens at instant speed.
7. Can activate at instant speed should you need to act EOT after bouncing something,
8. Can control what you bin, if you just need to drop a Bloodghast or Bridge and you suspect Trap.
9. Can act as dig instead of Dredging should you need a specific answer, or land.
10. Makes Lotus/LED live even without Fatestitcher or Coliseum.
11. Dodges both Thorn, and Spell Pierce.
12. Blocks Jailer ('shrug' He does.)

I run:
4 Force of Will
3 Unmask
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Drowned Rusalka
1 Echoing Truth

So I'm weaker to Leyline. But I think not only better against other hate cards, but also better against several decks that naturally take advantage of this deck's weaknesses. Especially of Bloodghast's issues post-board.

[Quasimodo]

Yay, now an uncounterable crypt...

Bojuka Bog

Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add to your mana pool.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, remove all cards in target player's graveyard from the game.

[unixtreme]

Yay, now an uncounterable crypt...

Bojuka Bog

Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add to your mana pool.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, remove all cards in target player's graveyard from the game.

Sorcery speed, i don't really fear it.

[meadbert]

This card struck fear into my heart and then I started testing.  Unixtreme is right, at least in game 1.  Their options are:
1)  Play it before our first turn thus having no effect on our graveyard. 
2)  Play it after our first turn, thus acting as a Time Walk.  (This is decent, but hardly devestating)
3)  Play after our second turn (AKA After they have already lost)

Pre board this is just not a problem.

[Ravager Sam]

It only matters games 2 and 3, when the deck is slowed down tremendously with all the anti-hate packed in...anti-hate for cards that are NOT lands.

[Neonico]

Ichorid really need to turn to semi mana'd versions (playing at least 10 mana lands post board).

The fact is that our main sideboard weapon will now be stifle (shut down 3 hate cards by itself) Chain of vapor (deal with all hate but the land) Unmask (see chain of vapor) and possibly force of will or another discard spell or more lands.

Also, now, this makes the choice between mana and disruption maindeck alot more crucial. And i tend to think that all the useless disruption ichoprid packed maindeck is now alot less usefull (chalice and leyline mainly, i still consider unmask maindeck) as the format slowed down alot since gift or gush era and lands are alot more usefull now, to build a sideboard with cards that deal with many hate we can face.

[meadbert]

Bojuku is about as bad post board and even worse preboard (if you expect it.)

Basically you can wait till your opponent's turn to make your first Bazaar activation.  One they make their land drop you can activate Bazaar and then win next turn.

Post board you will not be winning next turn, but you should be triggering some Bridge from Belows and possibly Dread Returning.  You only need the one turn.

Typically post board consist of going EOT bounce on Leyline.  Bazaar EOT.  Bazaar on upkeep.  Fatestitcher Bazaar and generate 8 Tokens and Dread Return a 12/12 Grave Troll.

Bojuco or whatever this new irrelivant card is does not in any way shape or form impact this plan.  If players irrationally fall in love with this card because it is new they will either run it in conjunction with Leyline in which case it is totally dead, or they will run it instead of Leyline in which case they are blown out of the water.
By misleading people, this card could make Dredge that much better! 

[Razvan]

The unfortunate side-effect is that this might have is the elimination of some versions of Ichorid, such as my version of BG. That's not a bad thing overall, but still, it's annoying.

As meadbert says, this doesn't spell the end of Ichorid. I doubt his optimism that it will make it better, but it definitely isn't earth-shattering. What annoys me the most is that every single set brings a new anti-Ichorid card. Where will it end?

[MirariKnight]

The unfortunate side-effect is that this might have is the elimination of some versions of Ichorid, such as my version of BG. That's not a bad thing overall, but still, it's annoying.

As meadbert says, this doesn't spell the end of Ichorid. I doubt his optimism that it will make it better, but it definitely isn't earth-shattering. What annoys me the most is that every single set brings a new anti-Ichorid card. Where will it end?

Last set also brought amazing card FOR ichorid (Bloodghast, to a lesser extent Iona). I think the deck can keep up. That's like saying "they print artifact kill in every set! Shops are unplayable!"

[Razvan]

I didn't say the type was unplayable, I said that something that doesn't run blue is getting dangerously close to being unplayable.

I have always tried to find alternates to Chain of Vapor. Unfortunately, at this point, I think that is the best way by a wide margin.

I also said it was annoying. At this point, people can have 7 anti-ichorid cards and they all be different. This will *maybe* require a shift in sideboarding strategies. When we consider stuff like Stifle, things are problematic.

Good point about Bloodghast however .

[MirariKnight]

I think it's a good thing that dredge decks suddenly have to actually think about what cards to board. This doesn't diminish their power to win game 1 at all, it just rewards the more skilled players who think/innovate ways around that hate. It also has the side benefit of making the deck have to play slightly more like a Magic deck (as using land for mana).

I think blue has been necessary since Fatestitcher, but that's just my opinion. Now though, you absolutely need Chain of Vapor and something like Chalice/Unmask/Force of Will AND something else instead of Echoing Truth (probably Stifle, since it hit's Tormod's, the new land, and occasionally does stuff like Stifling the Exlie your Bridge trigger  although that sucks).

[Razvan]

Well, it certainly was the fastest kill possible, and it was also the most consistent fast kill possible of any Ichorid deck. However. I started with a simple point, the fact that the fastest possible kill in game 1 might not be the most important direction for Ichorid. Since it has always been about games 2 and 3, including cards like Fatesticher or Breakthrough (ESPECIALLY the latter) is not the most optimal move.

I liked BG for a few reasons, especially Dryad Arbor, which made it easier to get to 3 creatures to Dread Return through the hate. The two worst hate cards for you were Leyline and Jailer, and BG can respond to both (Charm/Reverent Silence, and Darkblast/Contagion, I especially like DB for the dredge).

Anyway, now I am convinced that it's simply enough to use CoV to deal with both, and try to set up a winning position with two (or more if it's just jailer) Bazaar activation, and just fight against Ravenous Trap/Tormod's Crypt. I am intrigued by stifle. I don't think it's a bad thing to consider it, but you cannot get by with less than 4. So what will the SB be then?

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
3 Unmask
4 Stifle

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I have a serious question for Ichorid players. Assuming Stifle makes it into a staple in Ichorid sideboards, would you consider using it on a fetchland or would you reserve it only for hate? Lets assume two scenarios:

#1. Your opponent starts off with Leyline in play.
#2. Your opponent doesn't start off with Leyline in play.

Assuming the answer is yes:

What type of hand would you need to Stifle the fetch? (anti-hate/dredgers/discards/bazaars)

How many mulligans would your opponent have to take for you to consider it?

At what point does the amount of mana your opponent has negate this decision?

[MagicIsCardboardCrack]

At what point does the amount of mana your opponent has negate this decision?

Never.

Crypt->Free, Trap->Free, Leyline->Free

That leaves Jailer and Needle. At that point I'd just not even be playing Stifle; I'd run somethng different/better.

[meadbert]

Stifle will not be played because the new land is terrible and for all the same reasons it was not played before.

[MagicIsCardboardCrack]

Stifle will not be played because the new land is terrible and for all the same reasons it was not played before.

Exactly...

[Phoenix888]

Stifle will not be played because the new land is terrible and for all the same reasons it was not played before.

Why am I not surprised that meadbert is the first person to point this out to everyone?

[Adan]

Stifle will not be played because the new land is terrible and for all the same reasons it was not played before.

Why am I not surprised that meadbert is the first person to point this out to everyone?

Because he's another experienced Dredgeplayer? Seriously, even though this shit is uncounterable and/or not disposable by discard: What the hell do you want to do with a sorceryspeed Tormod's Crypt? Seriously, Tormod's Crypt itself is one of the worse cards against Ichorid.
And also mind that a normal sideboard can only dedicate about 8 slots for the Ichorid matchup. And in this case, Leylines, Jailers/Traps and Needles are still superior to... that land.

[MoonDark]

I know we are using a mostly Blue SB , but , what do you guys think about :

"Nature's Claim  
Instant    Common
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Its controller gains 4 life."

I think it's quite nice, kills Leyline, Oath, plus can get rid of the nasty artifact hate. Doesn't kill Jailer , but I want to hear you opinions

[MagicIsCardboardCrack]

I know we are using a mostly Blue SB , but , what do you guys think about :

"Nature's Claim  
Instant    Common
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Its controller gains 4 life."

I think it's quite nice, kills Leyline, Oath, plus can get rid of the nasty artifact hate. Doesn't kill Jailer , but I want to hear you opinions

I'm adding it. It's a definite. Probably replace my 4x Emerald charms, but not sure yet.

[BruiZar]

I think that Faerie Stompy in legacy could use bojuka bog to combat life from the loam decks and legacy dredge. Sea Drake can use it's citp ability to bounce it so you can get an extra use out of it. The same goes for Halimar Depths.

Staying in vintage, I think that the only way this card will see play is when it is used in a deck with Knight of the Reliquary or Crop Rotation.

[Adan]

I know we are using a mostly Blue SB , but , what do you guys think about :

"Nature's Claim  
Instant    Common
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. Its controller gains 4 life."

I think it's quite nice, kills Leyline, Oath, plus can get rid of the nasty artifact hate. Doesn't kill Jailer , but I want to hear you opinions

"Nice"? It's pretty sick! It handles everything relevant but Jailer and the 4 life the opp gains are just irrelevant (otherwise the BG builds from the past wouldn't have played Reverent Silence, aye?).

CC1 can is a blessing but can also be a curse at the same time as it doesn't circumvent Thorns and get's obsoleted by Chalice1, but I have experienced that AggroMUD is a terrible matchup postboard anyway.

[JunkieCosmonaut]

Hey there. I am going to my first tournament this weekend and I was thinking of bringing dredge. I was curious, what version of dredge is preferred these days? What do people consider the "best" version of dredge? Yep, just looking for some advice before I go to the tournament.