Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future

[voltron00x]

Fatestitcher and Sharuum Dredge has a worse matchup against fish and other decks with wasteland than normal dredge.  I recently switched from my beloved Sharuum Dredge -> normal dredge and I won a mox all the same.  A change in times calls for a change in decks; sharuum dredge is done, for now at least.

This, this, this, times a million.

If you want to win with Dredge,  then you can't try to build and play it in a vacuum.  Some builds perform better than others against specific opponents.  There's no absolute best version.  This is true generally speaking, as well as with Dredge.

In reference to MD Leyline, I included it for specific reasons at the philly open.  I expected a lot of Dredge.  If i recall correctly, it was 12% of the field and 25% of the top 8.  My version tends to win on turn 3 (although the game is generally "over" after turn 2), but uses Chalice of the Void and Leyline of the Void to make sure the opponent can't win faster than I can (and to win the mirror match game 1).  Don't discount Leyline against Oath, TPS, and Tezz; turning off Yawg Will is deceptively powerful.

Still, I could easily see moving it to the SB.  I'd probably move Nature's Claim and Ichorid to the MD, along with another DR and another DR target.  Needle has been weak out of the SB, I'd probably cut it completely and move the 4 Leylines to the SB.

[Sobolev]

I expect to play a lot of Workshop and Fish when I eventually play, so I think I'll be taking this advice.  Any thoughts on what you'd change from Saturday?  I like your version because it lets me run all four of my pretty Japanese Unmask.

[Ravager Sam]

I expect to play a lot of Workshop and Fish when I eventually play, so I think I'll be taking this advice.  Any thoughts on what you'd change from Saturday?  I like your version because it lets me run all four of my pretty Japanese Unmask.

One tremendous problem is the vulnerability to chalice @ 1.  My fish matches were incredibly smooth (dispite g1r1 when I dredged terribly but still won g2 and g3).  I want to fit in more anti-hate usable against Shops that doesn't cost 1 mana...like Serenity.

[Sobolev]

I expect to play a lot of Workshop and Fish when I eventually play, so I think I'll be taking this advice.  Any thoughts on what you'd change from Saturday?  I like your version because it lets me run all four of my pretty Japanese Unmask.

One tremendous problem is the vulnerability to chalice @ 1.  My fish matches were incredibly smooth (dispite g1r1 when I dredged terribly but still won g2 and g3).  I want to fit in more anti-hate usable against Shops that doesn't cost 1 mana...like Serenity.

While I understand the use to beat Chalice at one, the same deck plays 13 spheres.  Do you feel making 2+ mana against that will be rough/impossible?

[Evenpence]

Fatestitcher and Sharuum Dredge has a worse matchup against fish and other decks with wasteland than normal dredge.  I recently switched from my beloved Sharuum Dredge -> normal dredge and I won a mox all the same.  A change in times calls for a change in decks; sharuum dredge is done, for now at least.

I gotta say while watching you on Saturday, games 2 and 3 seemed interesting.  You had some close calls, but it was because of your opponent's draws.

I love your boarding strategy of "Bazaar is nice, but I don't really care about it."  lol

[Adan]

Fatestitcher and Sharuum Dredge has a worse matchup against fish and other decks with wasteland than normal dredge.  I recently switched from my beloved Sharuum Dredge -> normal dredge and I won a mox all the same.  A change in times calls for a change in decks; sharuum dredge is done, for now at least.

Would you mind sharing the list? or was it voltron00x'?

edit: I saw the list in the repoarts forum, nvm then.

[Ravager Sam]

I expect to play a lot of Workshop and Fish when I eventually play, so I think I'll be taking this advice.  Any thoughts on what you'd change from Saturday?  I like your version because it lets me run all four of my pretty Japanese Unmask.

One tremendous problem is the vulnerability to chalice @ 1.  My fish matches were incredibly smooth (dispite g1r1 when I dredged terribly but still won g2 and g3).  I want to fit in more anti-hate usable against Shops that doesn't cost 1 mana...like Serenity.

While I understand the use to beat Chalice at one, the same deck plays 13 spheres.  Do you feel making 2+ mana against that will be rough/impossible?

It's something that I haven't tested, but it can't exactly be easy facing a chalice @ 1 and any other relevant beef or hate.  Chalice @ 1 shuts down 1/4 of the deck.

[Adan]

While I understand the use to beat Chalice at one, the same deck plays 13 spheres.  Do you feel making 2+ mana against that will be rough/impossible?

It's something that I haven't tested, but it can't exactly be easy facing a chalice @ 1 and any other relevant beef or hate.  Chalice @ 1 shuts down 1/4 of the deck.

It's quite easy. I've won a match against MUD because I had a lot of mana and hardcasted 2 Stinkweeds and a Moeba that killed him on hte long run. But Chalice1 shouldn't be TOO bad.
You have to watch it from the MUD-player's perspective, playing a Chalice @ 1 requires a lot of timing. You have to get a Relic online before you set it on 1, otherwise you're pretty dead.
And hardcasting guys happens quite often in the postboard games against Wasteland-decks. It still wins games because the opponent's 60 are diluted with hate. But all the hatecards actually can't do anything against a good boardposition.

But I also have to admit that I play a sideboard that pretty much dies to Chalice1, but I still think it's the optimal config as you have everything covered (well, yeah, except for Chalice1 and Magus of the Moon). But you can't win it all, huh?

[Ravager Sam]

So if you got the mana to hardcast stuff like that, then you plop down a serenity and proceed to blow out the entire game without question.  Dredge is should beat shops if they just have hate and random irrelevant cards, but no pressure.  That being said, winning the games where they have both pressure & hate is tough, and I feel things can be optimized for this matchup.

[Neonico]

I wouldn't mind one more Golgari Thug, and I like the Field maindeck, 2 lands to replace them in the sideboard when playing people who you don't need them for.  I don't know what I would cut though.

It's exactly how i prepare my sideboard.
I have 2 gemstone mines 4 chains/2 claims which come in in every matchup.
And some situationnal cards :
 - 1 petrified feild, comes in in the wasteland matchup
 - 2 darkblast, comes in in the any black matchup
 - 4 Leyline, comes in against dredge and MUD/stax (possibly goblins)

Same for my outs table. I have some pretty standart outs (Flame-kin, 3 fatesticher, Lion's Eye DIamond, 1 dread Return,  Cephalid Sage) + Golgari thug( when i side in darkblast) 2 petrified feilds (when i dont face wasteland) The darkblast (when i don't face a black deck) and 2 ichorids and 1 or 2 serum Powders (when i need to side in more cards). The siding out of serum powders seems odd, but it's really possible with Carefull study in the deck

The other possibilities that i can think of : Ingot Chewer/Ancient grudge (dodge chalice for 1, which became really strong against ichorid since Nature's claim now exists), a random Rifstone portal (really helps against MUD to play the slowdredge games)

[suffocation2157]

I've been playing around with every build of dredge i can find to figure out which version i like best. I'm currently testing a version that's a little different. Let me know what you think.

4 bazaar
4 city of brass
4 undiscovered paradise
2 petrified field
1 dakmor salvage

2 nature's claim
4 serum powder
4 cabal therapy
4 bridge from below
2 dread return
*3 unmask
*2 crop rotation

4 blood ghast
2 ichorid
4 golgari troll
4 stinkweed imp
2 golgari thug
1 darkblast
4 narcomoeba

1 flame-kin zealot
1 sphinx of lost truths
1 terastodon

The unmasks and the crop rotations used to be x4 carefull study and x2 breakthrough, but I thought just finding bazaar would be better...at which point I needed to add more protection for counters. I would like to add the 4th unmask but I'm not sure what to remove..what do you guys think? Maybe crop rotation is horrible but I just hate mulling into game loss, and if I could i would run 6-8 bazaars so crop rotation seems like the next best thing. Then again maybe I just need to accept that there will be times that I just lose due to bad draws. thoughts?

[Negator]

I'm currently looking for a way to deal with graveyard hate by not using the graveyard anymore. Something that would oblige the opponent to still care about your graveyard - because you could be dangerous - but in the same time be able to put pressure with your hand.

Have ever tried a sideboard like this with some Nature's Claim maindeck?

4 Savannah Lions
4 Elite Vanguard or maybe Goblin Guide
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Qasali Pridemage (with something like 10 lands that give you 5 colors)

I realised that a lot of the games I played post board, 2 or 3 tokens if often enough to overrun the opponent.

What do you think?

[Adan]

I realised that a lot of the games I played post board, 2 or 3 tokens if often enough to overrun the opponent.

What do you think?

The thing is that against massive hate, Dredge boils down to being a very very bad aggrodeck, so the best way is still to run hate-hate to maintain your actual gameplan (which is going insane with Bazaar). The "bad-aggro-plan" can also be archieved by hardcasting BGhasts, Thugs, Moebas and Stinkweed Imps which is the very last resort. The very last.

So no.

[Neonico]

In a slowdredge plan, tombstalker is the best by far....

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I'm currently looking for a way to deal with graveyard hate by not using the graveyard anymore. Something that would oblige the opponent to still care about your graveyard - because you could be dangerous - but in the same time be able to put pressure with your hand.

Have ever tried a sideboard like this with some Nature's Claim maindeck?

4 Savannah Lions
4 Elite Vanguard or maybe Goblin Guide
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Qasali Pridemage (with something like 10 lands that give you 5 colors)

I realised that a lot of the games I played post board, 2 or 3 tokens if often enough to overrun the opponent.

What do you think?

No offence, but why would you run creatures that are so bad they rarely if ever see play even in Legacy when you can run beasts like Goyf and Tombstalker...

[Razvan]

The thing about Tombstalker is that it is only good vs. Yixlid Jailer. Most other times, you cannot cast the bugger. Even Goyf might be hard to cast and it will be small.

I think the best idea is just to face the hate with anti-hate. I cannot really think that any aggro (or Oath) strategy would work better.

[Negator]

Mainly because they cost only one (Qasali was not a good idea). But on second thoughts, Tombstalker seems really great, I didn't think about him. Against MUD, you can reduce the cost if there is a Sphere/Golem and Tormod's Crypt doesn't work if he tries to do it in response. I'll definitely test him.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

The thing about Tombstalker is that it is only good vs. Yixlid Jailer. Most other times, you cannot cast the bugger. Even Goyf might be hard to cast and it will be small.

I think the best idea is just to face the hate with anti-hate. I cannot really think that any aggro (or Oath) strategy would work better.

Well if you force your opponent to blow a Tormod's Crypt on a 6-card graveyard out of fear of Tombstalker then I think it has done its job better than Chain of Vapor/Nature's Claim ever could. You can't crack it in response to removing the cards as part of the cost.

Goyf would do the same thing in that you keep your graveyard small while using Bazaar to just dig rather than dredge for Chain/Claim/Grudge(/lands) to remove Key/Vault (which is the only thing non-tendrils decks can really do to race you). If they have to use Crypt to keep a Goyf small rather than stopping you from going apeshit with Bazaar you've done your job.

Of course this strategy has its own flaws but not for the reasons you state.

If I had to test it I would try:
4 Goyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim/Chain of Vapor (with the other 4-5 crammed in maindeck)

[nineisnoone]

Leyline is still --and to my mind will always be-- the ideal Ichorid hate card.  So shifting to a strategy that can't deal with it is just asking to get hated out.

If they are running things like Crypt or Trap, they aren't running a wall they are running interference, meaning that they are just looking to slow you down until they can win. 

So while Tombstalker poses a threat, it's likely not going to be stronger than the threat that they posses.  You drop your stalker, but they go infinite or Oath or whatever.  Going aggro's best case would be against another aggro deck, but generally ichorid is relatively stronger there anyways.

On the otherhand Chain/Claim both can deal with many existing win conditions, Golem, Vault, Oath, and Tinker (sometimes), in addition to dealing with many of the hate cards you'd face.

[BruiZar]

After seeing my brother play Sharuum Sharuum at Bazaar of Moxen, I can safely say that it is the best version of dredge currently available. we are currently improving the list and have some good ideas that we need to test out. Sharuum Sharuum is just so much more powerful than the other versions.

[Razvan]

After seeing my brother play Sharuum Sharuum at Bazaar of Moxen, I can safely say that it is the best version of dredge currently available. we are currently improving the list and have some good ideas that we need to test out. Sharuum Sharuum is just so much more powerful than the other versions.

I also played dredge at BoM, and even kept good notes...

I had to mulligan to oblivion (one card, no bazaar, with 4 serum powders) in r1g2 (won 2-1), r2g1 (lost 2-1) and r3g1... then, upset, i basically lost r3g3 because I messed up (mulliganned to 3 and hit a bazaar somehow). Although after playing the deck for 2 years I never thought that I would lose 2 straight game 1s like that in a row after one mulligan to oblivion already. Very frustrating.

[Valorale]

After seeing my brother play Sharuum Sharuum at Bazaar of Moxen, I can safely say that it is the best version of dredge currently available.

Im interested to see what youve been tinkering with. Ive time and time again cant/couldnt figure out why the Sharuum engine is better than simply going FKZ into the win, less dead cards, and win that turn seems better to me than milling out your opp and passing the turn with more cards dedicated to make it happen.

[BruiZar]

The problem is that FKZ is not always lethal. During BoM I was put on 1 life with FKZ on turn 2 and then I just took infinite turns. Against Sharuum, I would simply no longer have a library and die. Going FKZ moves the deck into the direction of an aggro deck instead of a combo deck and I think that combo is just better. The problem dredge has right now is that it is vulnerable so it needs to be able to quickly force through hate cards such as trap, relic, yixlid jailer and crypt. I have found a solution for Chalice of the Void, Ravenous Trap, Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt. The only card that is still hard to hate out without Darkblast is Yixlid Jailer. For this, dredge requires mana and thus it moves away from reliance on Serum Powder. I still need to tinker with the deck but it is closer to a mana'd build than anything else.

[Adan]

The problem is that FKZ is not always lethal. During BoM I was put on 1 life with FKZ on turn 2 and then I just took infinite turns.

Wait, was it you who went Land, Mox, Walk, Land, Vault-Key, go against me?

Against Sharuum, I would simply no longer have a library and die. Going FKZ moves the deck into the direction of an aggro deck instead of a combo deck and I think that combo is just better.

No, not in that scenario. I hit DR, FKZ, 3 creatures (plus Orchard token) but just 1 Bridge from Below. With Sharuum Dredge, I'd have had to hit 2 Sharrums, 1 Bridge, the Possessed Portal or Altar of Dementia in addition to the Dread Return and the 2-3 creatures. It's very unlikely to hit these 8 cards altogether when dredging just 18 cards (upkeep dredge Troll and Troll, drawstep dredge Troll).

The problem dredge has right now is that it is vulnerable so it needs to be able to quickly force through hate cards such as trap, relic, yixlid jailer and crypt. I have found a solution for Chalice of the Void, Ravenous Trap, Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt. The only card that is still hard to hate out without Darkblast is Yixlid Jailer.

Well, Jailer is pretty okqay, I often don't board Darkblasts against UB decks because people have stopped to run Jailer for some reason (he's still hood actually...). But if they sudddenly drop Jailer, I always handled it pretty elegant with Chain-Therapy/Unmask. Did this in Annecy and also hit a 2nd Jailer he was holding in his hand. No sweat.

For this, dredge requires mana and thus it moves away from reliance on Serum Powder.

Not! You will still be reliant on Bazaar and playing Serum Poweder maximizes the odds of having him.

[meadbert]

Against Sharuum, I would simply no longer have a library and die. Going FKZ moves the deck into the direction of an aggro deck instead of a combo deck and I think that combo is just better.

No, not in that scenario. I hit DR, FKZ, 3 creatures (plus Orchard token) but just 1 Bridge from Below. With Sharuum Dredge, I'd have had to hit 2 Sharrums, 1 Bridge, the Possessed Portal or Altar of Dementia in addition to the Dread Return and the 2-3 creatures. It's very unlikely to hit these 8 cards altogether when dredging just 18 cards (upkeep dredge Troll and Troll, drawstep dredge Troll).

This is why Altar, Lotus and LED are so good.  If you had been running that Sharuum engine then presumably the FKZ would have been Sharuum #1.  From there if you had Lotus or LED you likely could have played several Fatestitchers.  If you only had Altar you could have atleast grabbed Altar and started milling cards by sacking Sharuum and some tokens.  In this situation is extremely rare to not win turn 2 when playing with Sharuum Dredge.  If you get 3 Dredges on turn 2 then you should be in the clear for a win.

For this, dredge requires mana and thus it moves away from reliance on Serum Powder.

Not! You will still be reliant on Bazaar and playing Serum Poweder maximizes the odds of having him.

Exactly.  The reason to play Powder is not to avoid mana at this point.  Given that Blooghast and Fatestitchers are so good in combo versions of Dredge you will be running mana.  Mana is not the question.  The question is do you play Breakthroughs and possibly Careful Study or do you play Serum Powder.  Because Fatestitcher is so good with Bazaar and can be played from the yard where as Breakthrough and Careful Study cannot be played from the yard and because Breakthrough and Careful Study are vulnerable to Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone Golem, Chalice@1, Duress, Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce and Force of Will while Serum Powder is vulnerable to ... nothing, it makes more sense to run Serum Powder.

The primary arguments against Serum Powder/Fatestitcher is that it makes you more reliant on Bazaar and it takes more space. The arguments in favor are that it is less vulnerable to typical game 1 hate as listed above and it is much faster.

[Adan]

This is why Altar, Lotus and LED are so good.  If you had been running that Sharuum engine then presumably the FKZ would have been Sharuum #1.  From there if you had Lotus or LED you likely could have played several Fatestitchers.  If you only had Altar you could have atleast grabbed Altar and started milling cards by sacking Sharuum and some tokens.  In this situation is extremely rare to not win turn 2 when playing with Sharuum Dredge.  If you get 3 Dredges on turn 2 then you should be in the clear for a win.

Well, yeah, but this still seems way more complicated than just having dredged the 2nd Bridge ftw. Oooor just having a 5color Land in addition to everything. My opening hand was Leyline, Bazaar, GGT, GGT, Dakmor Salvage, random, random. I could have either dredged the 2nd Bridge or have a 5color Land to pop some Stitchers. The last possibility would have been just to dredge 1 more creature. Seriously, the Golgari Grave Troll I animated was 1 Power short to killing my opp. Seriously, everything that could fail did so. I guess it was just bad luck. The Sharuum Dredge scenarios seem WAY more utopic than that so don't tell me that it's better.

[BruiZar]

Against Sharuum, I would simply no longer have a library and die. Going FKZ moves the deck into the direction of an aggro deck instead of a combo deck and I think that combo is just better.

No, not in that scenario. I hit DR, FKZ, 3 creatures (plus Orchard token) but just 1 Bridge from Below. With Sharuum Dredge, I'd have had to hit 2 Sharrums, 1 Bridge, the Possessed Portal or Altar of Dementia in addition to the Dread Return and the 2-3 creatures. It's very unlikely to hit these 8 cards altogether when dredging just 18 cards (upkeep dredge Troll and Troll, drawstep dredge Troll).

This is why Altar, Lotus and LED are so good.  If you had been running that Sharuum engine then presumably the FKZ would have been Sharuum #1.  From there if you had Lotus or LED you likely could have played several Fatestitchers.  If you only had Altar you could have atleast grabbed Altar and started milling cards by sacking Sharuum and some tokens.  In this situation is extremely rare to not win turn 2 when playing with Sharuum Dredge.  If you get 3 Dredges on turn 2 then you should be in the clear for a win.

For this, dredge requires mana and thus it moves away from reliance on Serum Powder.

Not! You will still be reliant on Bazaar and playing Serum Poweder maximizes the odds of having him.

Exactly.  The reason to play Powder is not to avoid mana at this point.  Given that Blooghast and Fatestitchers are so good in combo versions of Dredge you will be running mana.  Mana is not the question.  The question is do you play Breakthroughs and possibly Careful Study or do you play Serum Powder.  Because Fatestitcher is so good with Bazaar and can be played from the yard where as Breakthrough and Careful Study cannot be played from the yard and because Breakthrough and Careful Study are vulnerable to Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone Golem, Chalice@1, Duress, Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce and Force of Will while Serum Powder is vulnerable to ... nothing, it makes more sense to run Serum Powder.

The primary arguments against Serum Powder/Fatestitcher is that it makes you more reliant on Bazaar and it takes more space. The arguments in favor are that it is less vulnerable to typical game 1 hate as listed above and it is much faster.

Hi Meadbert.

I'm still in the testing phase, but right now, Serum Powder moves away because there is just not enough space in the deck to support it. I am currently configuring the build with breakthrough because Force of Will is just so damn good in dredge. Moving away from serum powder actually gives you more keepable hands because you can add breakthroughs / careful study to the deck. For the sideboard, I'm testing circular logic and mystic remora too. I will tell all of you this, the card that will push sharuum sharuum to new heights is Life / Death.



It dodges chalice of the void and ravenous trap, gives practically garantueed turn 2 sharuum loops, removes the reliance of 3 creatures on the board for you to go off.

@ Adan:
You played with a very outdated dredge configuration and I could predict what you were playing easily. Your deck scrubbed out on you because you played FKZ as a win condition although I have to commend you on dread returning gravetroll and then dread returning again on FKZ. I dodged the bullet there but it was only because of your win condition, not because of your play skill. Fog wins from FKZ, but Sharuum Sharuum is is certain destruction once it gets going. The list I made for my brother played Akroma's Memorial (to circumvent null rod) and Altar of Dementia.

Chalice of the Void and Leyline of the Void do not belong in dredge. They mess up space, don't stop vault key and are bad on the draw. Leyline simply doesn't matter. By the time your opponent can Y. Will, you should've already won and you shouldn't be bothered by killing their creatures except for Yixlid Jailer. There is never a time where I wouldn't rather have Force of Will than Unmask. The problem is game 2 and unmask requires you to be on the play, which you are not in game 2. Force of Will randomly wins games simply by forcing the hate card in an otherwise reasonably shitty hand that was kept by your opponent, simply in the hopes of not being raced by dredge.

I'm currently trying Darkblast main instead of golgari thug because I want some non-sideboard solutions for yixlid jailers. The -1 dredge of darkblast doesn't matter when you have draw spells like ancestral recall and breakthrough. They compensate for weaker dredgers and cluttercards in the deck. Also, Fatestitcher = GOD (and its blue too so you can support FoW)


edit: to be more specific about life / death, you can sack lands to cabal therapy/bridge. sack bazaar + land turn 2 to get 2 tokens then dread return using the bloodghast you cheated into play and the tokens, and you can simply ignore cheating 3 creatures into play by reanimating with Death the next turn. This comes as a surprise when you don't have 3 creatures in play (Your opponent won't strip you with R. Trap when you can't Dread Return or do anything else that's dangerous right now, so you can simply not tap bazaar and reanimate your sharuum loop to win, while his R.Trap stays in his hands because he doesn't have the mana to hardcast  the card)

[Adan]

@ Adan:
You played with a very outdated dredge configuration and I could predict what you were playing easily. Your deck scrubbed out on you because you played FKZ as a win condition although I have to commend you on dread returning gravetroll and then dread returning again on FKZ. I dodged the bullet there but it was only because of your win condition, not because of your play skill. Fog wins from FKZ, but Sharuum Sharuum is is certain destruction once it gets going. The list I made for my brother played Akroma's Memorial (to circumvent null rod) and Altar of Dementia.

Just because you lucksacked me like non other doesn't mean that my Dredge build is either inferior to Sharuum Dredge (which it is NOT!) or scrubbed out on me. I just noticed that there were a bunch of thing that would have won if they happened (i.e. dredging a 2nd Bridge or just 1 more creature or having one of my 10 5color lands in addition to Leyline, Bazaar, Dredger, 3 random. Oh, or I could have also found the Cephalid Sage, 4th possibility!).

And yes, I know how to play my deck. Therefore I can clearly say that you were lucky and I wasn't, I was checking every option open to me but I really didn't see how I could rip it.

Sharuum Dredge is much more reliant on Fatestitcher than my build, therefore a Wasteland hurts you much more. It also misses the possibility to drop a Leyline on Turn0 to protect Leylines and then slowroll things with Ichorid against MUD. They can waste your Bazaar all day long, if you can recurr Ichorid 2-3 times with a few Bridges in the Yard they will inevitabily lose.
And well, MUD is the most frequently played deck currently and the most successful. And it really is a uncomfortable matchup, especially for Sharuum Dredge since the Wasteland will slow you down enough to give them time to also lock down your Dread Returns with one of their 1909238797432 Spheres.

Chalice of the Void and Leyline of the Void do not belong in dredge. They mess up space, don't stop vault key and are bad on the draw. Leyline simply doesn't matter.

You'd be screwed if I had Chalice instead of Leyline. Your argument is invalid. And playing without Leylines in Annecy is a mistake, you will lose the mirrormatches without them. And there were enough Dredge to justify my config. Leyline deals a good amount of splash damage to other decks and is independant from play/draw.

By the time your opponent can Y. Will, you should've already won and you shouldn't be bothered by killing their creatures except for Yixlid Jailer. There is never a time where I wouldn't rather have Force of Will than Unmask.

Fast Tendrils decks tend to spam mana, cast a Tutor on Y.Will, replay everything and then finish me off within Turn 1 or 2. Grimlong is such a deck, as well as Tobi's Horden Tendrils. A fast and powerful Yawgmoth's Will is always the last resort for any UB based deck to finish you off out of nowhere in case you should just have 1 Bazaar and do the standard turn 3ish kill. Leyline prevents that. It is also very nice against Iona Oath with Reclamation-Will as it steals a lot of resources.

The problem is game 2 and unmask requires you to be on the play, which you are not in game 2. Force of Will randomly wins games simply by forcing the hate card in an otherwise reasonably shitty hand that was kept by your opponent, simply in the hopes of not being raced by dredge.

In which case should you need that? I mean, really, if a opponent drops a Crypt or a Relic on Turn 1, I'll just nuke it with Claim and slowdredge until I hit a card that forces the opponent to crack it (I won against triple Relic and Wheel of Sun and Moon that day).
And in such cases it's enough to Unmask a Spell Pierce and then nuke the hatecard. I also have moved away from that train of thought, I currently use Unmask as an option to combat Ravenous Traps. With success.

I'm currently trying Darkblast main instead of golgari thug because I want some non-sideboard solutions for yixlid jailers. The -1 dredge of darkblast doesn't matter when you have draw spells like ancestral recall and breakthrough. They compensate for weaker dredgers and cluttercards in the deck. Also, Fatestitcher = GOD (and its blue too so you can support FoW)

So what? That kind of Dredge build is reliant on casting spells. I think you can figure it out yourself how MUD will just rape you, especially when they are on the play.

edit: to be more specific about life / death, you can sack lands to cabal therapy/bridge. sack bazaar + land turn 2 to get 2 tokens then dread return using the bloodghast you cheated into play and the tokens, and you can simply ignore cheating 3 creatures into play by reanimating with Death the next turn. This comes as a surprise when you don't have 3 creatures in play (Your opponent won't strip you with R. Trap when you can't Dread Return or do anything else that's dangerous right now, so you can simply not tap bazaar and reanimate your sharuum loop to win, while his R.Trap stays in his hands because he doesn't have the mana to hardcast  the card)

Uhm... or you just drop a land, put in Bloodghast, strip his Trap with Cabal and then tap Bazaar to go broken.

[Valorale]

In my experience if I lose playing Dredge is it because one of these items happen:

1. My opponent is playing combo (Belcher, ANT etc) and they have the turn 1 kill in the hand.
2. My opponent assembles Vault/Key very quickly
3. I use several Bazaar activations without seeing a dredger, preventing me from going off for several turns while on the clock.
4. Multiple layers of hate and/or I cant find my answer to the hate. Pithing Needle/Leyline with Chalice @1 is pretty rough to fight back from esp against aggro mud.
5. Hate drops on me (Ravenous Trap / Crop Rotation into Bajuka Bog)
6. I boot it

I cant think of a game when ive resolved FKZ and lost. It certainly can happen .. like my opp echo truths the zombies, but so far ive been pretty lucky not to run into that.

[Womba]

I'm still in the testing phase, but right now, Serum Powder moves away because there is just not enough space in the deck to support it. I am currently configuring the build with breakthrough because Force of Will is just so damn good in dredge. Moving away from serum powder actually gives you more keepable hands because you can add breakthroughs / careful study to the deck. For the sideboard, I'm testing circular logic and mystic remora too. I will tell all of you this, the card that will push sharuum sharuum to new heights is Life / Death.

It dodges chalice of the void and ravenous trap, gives practically garantueed turn 2 sharuum loops, removes the reliance of 3 creatures on the board for you to go off.

@ Adan:
You played with a very outdated dredge configuration and I could predict what you were playing easily. Your deck scrubbed out on you because you played FKZ as a win condition although I have to commend you on dread returning gravetroll and then dread returning again on FKZ. I dodged the bullet there but it was only because of your win condition, not because of your play skill. Fog wins from FKZ, but Sharuum Sharuum is is certain destruction once it gets going. The list I made for my brother played Akroma's Memorial (to circumvent null rod) and Altar of Dementia.

Chalice of the Void and Leyline of the Void do not belong in dredge. They mess up space, don't stop vault key and are bad on the draw. Leyline simply doesn't matter. By the time your opponent can Y. Will, you should've already won and you shouldn't be bothered by killing their creatures except for Yixlid Jailer. There is never a time where I wouldn't rather have Force of Will than Unmask. The problem is game 2 and unmask requires you to be on the play, which you are not in game 2. Force of Will randomly wins games simply by forcing the hate card in an otherwise reasonably shitty hand that was kept by your opponent, simply in the hopes of not being raced by dredge.

I'm currently trying Darkblast main instead of golgari thug because I want some non-sideboard solutions for yixlid jailers. The -1 dredge of darkblast doesn't matter when you have draw spells like ancestral recall and breakthrough. They compensate for weaker dredgers and cluttercards in the deck. Also, Fatestitcher = GOD (and its blue too so you can support FoW)


edit: to be more specific about life / death, you can sack lands to cabal therapy/bridge. sack bazaar + land turn 2 to get 2 tokens then dread return using the bloodghast you cheated into play and the tokens, and you can simply ignore cheating 3 creatures into play by reanimating with Death the next turn. This comes as a surprise when you don't have 3 creatures in play (Your opponent won't strip you with R. Trap when you can't Dread Return or do anything else that's dangerous right now, so you can simply not tap bazaar and reanimate your sharuum loop to win, while his R.Trap stays in his hands because he doesn't have the mana to hardcast  the card)

More like new lows if you ask me.......So it is almost like you need Life/Death AND Bazaar in your opener AND lands. That seems really bad for you and wildly inconsistant to get, especially since you suggested cutting serum powder. This card also does nothing out of the graveyard so if you don't hit it before one-two activations of bazaar it mind as well be a pokemon card since it seems really slow to try and wait to draw this card. Also, its pretty ambitious thinking the stars are going to align with planets assuming you hit all your cards to have a "Guarenteed" loop turn 2, let alone that being the norm for this kind of build. I dont think I would ever sac bazaar thats just asking to lose.....I would suggest staying in the testing phase a little while longer.....